Leeroy Jenkins
Footballguy
didn't a Kobe team do exactly that against the same celtics in the deciding game of the 2008 finals?I agree, however, that lebron appeared to lack that assasin instinct these past 2 games.
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Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
He's right - Kobe teams don't bother with 2 minutes, they give up whole quarters and halves.
No. 16
Footballguy
Seriously that was a pathetic performance by LeBron and the Cavs.
All the great players lose games, but this was the first time I've seen a team led by a "great" player completely give up in an elimination playoff game. Everyone played nervous and no one took control of the team and the game. It looked like all the Cavs players knew they just effed up and lost LeBron to New York.
The Cavs would have been better off if they traded for Stephen Jackson earlier in the year rather then Antwan Jamison, IMO. Jackson gives the same defense as Parker if not better, play making ability to help LBJ out, and fills the void of leadership/intensity that a LeBron led team lacks. When he's winning he screams and thumps his chest, but when his team is behind he's no where to be found.
All the great players lose games, but this was the first time I've seen a team led by a "great" player completely give up in an elimination playoff game. Everyone played nervous and no one took control of the team and the game. It looked like all the Cavs players knew they just effed up and lost LeBron to New York.
The Cavs would have been better off if they traded for Stephen Jackson earlier in the year rather then Antwan Jamison, IMO. Jackson gives the same defense as Parker if not better, play making ability to help LBJ out, and fills the void of leadership/intensity that a LeBron led team lacks. When he's winning he screams and thumps his chest, but when his team is behind he's no where to be found.
you just start watching the NBA this year?
No. 16
Footballguy
Nope.Honestly, I can't think back to anytime I've ever seen a team led by a HOF player (Sorry Joe Johnson) look as bad as the Cavs did last night. If you do please share.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
No. 16
Footballguy
You laugh but please point me to an example when a team led by an all-time great completely looks defeat halfway through the fourth quarter in an elimination game. Great players lose all the time, but I can't remember a situation where a team looked as bad as the Cavs last night.Your memory is not very good. At all.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
My God, you are clueless.Leeroy Jenkins already gave you one example, which you conveniently ignored. The Lakers were done in that game before halftime.
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bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Lakers vs Pistons in 2004. Shaq and Kobe. or did you miss that one?You laugh but please point me to an example when a team led by an all-time great completely looks defeat halfway through the fourth quarter in an elimination game. Great players lose all the time, but I can't remember a situation where a team looked as bad as the Cavs last night.Your memory is not very good. At all.
Tough As Nails
Glave Master
Actually...I'm fine with you continuing to ask but refusing to look.You laugh but please point me to an example when a team led by an all-time great completely looks defeat halfway through the fourth quarter in an elimination game. Great players lose all the time, but I can't remember a situation where a team looked as bad as the Cavs last night.
No. 16
Footballguy
The 04 and 08 Lakers lost but they weren't defeated mentally like the Cavs last night. There's a big difference in how those teams competed compared to the effort the Cavs put up last night. How many TOs did the Cavs have in crunch time? Maybe it's LeBron impending FA but that team looked like they just visited the Temple of Doom.
No. 16
Footballguy
I don't need to look. You're the one challenging my assertion. It's on you to disprove it.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
The Lakers Celtics scored 73 points in the 2nd half against the Lakers in game 6. This was after being down by 23 points at halftime. Seems to me like 1) the Lakers didn't really compete in the 1st half, and 2) completely gave up in the 2nd half.
Bobcat10
Footballguy
IMO, you are getting more on the right track here.You laugh but please point me to an example when a team led by an all-time great completely looks defeat halfway through the fourth quarter in an elimination game. Great players lose all the time, but I can't remember a situation where a team looked as bad as the Cavs last night.
saintfool
Dead sexy
1995 western conference finals, between the houston rockets and san antonio spurs. the year that robinson earned MVP honors.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Pistons rolled a heavily favored Laker team beating them badly in game 1, 3 and 5. game 5 was over by half, Lakers quit because they had been beaten so badly. I guess you missed that series, Lakers were a miracle 3 away from being swept.
Boston beat LA by 39 points in Game 6 of the 2008 Finals.39 points!No. 16 said:
what about 2006 when the Lakers were up 3-1 on the Suns and they lost the next 3, including a 31 point loss in game 7.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/recap?gid=2006050621
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
The Lakers totally rolled over for the Pistons in 2004. They scored 68 points in Game 3. They showed no life during the 3 games in Detroit.No. 16 said:
boubucarow
Footballguy
No. 16
Footballguy
That was Kobe's protest game. He wanted to send a message that his teammates sucked and they did. Maybe LBJ was doing the same but I doubt it.
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
No. 16
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
Some of you have are looking at Jordan's career through rose-colored glasses. As I've posted in another thread, Jordan's playoff record through Lebron's age (25) was 5-15 and he'd won all of one series.
Spartans Rule
Footballguy
So when the Lakers lose an elimination game to the Celtics by 39, they were just outplayed. They were 39 points worse than the Celtics.When the Cavs lose an elimination game to the Celtics by 9, it was because they choked, failed, had no heart, weren't clutch, are horrible people, etc. They couldn't possibly be "just outplayed."
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No. 16
Footballguy
I just don't classify game wide beatings the same as when you have a chance to win the game. That's just getting outplayed from beginning to end. Your team didn't show up and the opposing team did. That's it. Blame still goes to Kobe but it reveals he didn't prepare his team for the game mentally. However, when a game is still within reach and certainly winnable there's a different role you expect from your leader. You expect them to take over the game, make the plays necessary to win, and push his teammates. LBJ was just on the court doing his thing, but he didn't play with any intensity and did nothing to give his teammates confidence or calm their nerves. They were completely lost and defeated. He failed completely what you would expect from a leader in that situation.If the game is winnable you know damn sure Kobe is going to have the ball in his hands, take shots, make plays, and yell at teammates. It may not always work, but you KNOW he's going to do that. Same with MJ. Duncan. Shaq. Etc.
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No. 16
Footballguy
In the end of the only number that matters is the number of championships. It's not all Lebron's fault. His teammates and coach are terrible, but that does not excuse the WAY they lost. They were terrible the past two games and the team just gave up during the final two minutes when the game was still within reach. I do find it funny that when the playoffs started LBJ's coach and team were plenty good for everyone to predict it was the Cavs year. People kept touting that the Cavs had the best record in the NBA, home court advantage through out playoffs, and were an excellent defensive team. Now that they lost his teammates and coaches are terrible again (they are and always were), but for 82 games LBJ carried his team but when it came to playoff time he stopped playing like a leader.
People dogging Lebron for not being a leader I have this issue with. Jordan and Kobe won every championship they have with a leader on the bench in Phil Jackson. Magic Johnson won all but one of his championships with a leader on the bench in Pat Riley. Would those guys have been known as the same leaders if they had to play under Mike Brown and with that collection of mediocre players Lebron had to play with? Personally I don't think so.People requested the impossible out of Lebron. Win an NBA championship with the worst collection of players and worst HC any superstar would have ever won an NBA championship with. His failure to do that does not demean him in my eyes.For the record I did think the Cavs would defeat the Celtics but I never thought they would beat the Magic or the Lakers if it came to that.
No. 16
Footballguy
I don't care that he lost, but the way he lost was terrible.
Sam Quentin
Footballguy
If he goes to Mia, he just might win one
culdeus
Footballguy
update?
clutchness rating update?
wadegarrett
FFA Legend™
At first I was like: 
Now I'm like:
Now I'm like:
culdeus
Footballguy
timschochet
Footballguy
I would.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
just seems like LeBrons biggest issue is that his jumper isnt that reliable. Jordan, Kobe,Bird Even Dirk. I just knew those guys shots were going in at the end of the game.
LeBron is a great athlete that plays baksetball and he needs to work on his jumper, badly.
LeBron is a great athlete that plays baksetball and he needs to work on his jumper, badly.
saintsfan
Footballguy
Everybody wants Lebron to be Jordan, but he's not really that much like Jordan, except he's an athletic freak. Kobe Bryant is more like Jordan, the scoring machine with the killer instinct.
However, as usual with all things Jordan, EVERYBODY now needs to be like Jordan to be considered the GOAT. There are other ways to do it. LeBron's game is more well rounded and is more along the lines of a Bird or Magic and since those guys won a combined 8 rings, that can win multiple NBA titles for you.
Here's the problem, however. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be Magic and he doesn't have the shooting touch or the low post presence of Bird and, so far, hasn't shown the killer instinct of Jordan, Bird, or Magic.
The physical stuff he can work on. IMO, he's got more of a chance of being like Bird. A huge small forward. He needs to work on post moves and a mid range game because athleticism doesn't last forever. Will he ever be the knock down shooter Bird was?? Probably not, but his athleticism would more than make up for that because of the things he could do that Bird couldn't. Bird could be the best player on the floor while scoring only 15 points. LeBron hasn't figured out how to do that yet.
The killer instinct, I'm not sure you can work on that. You either have it or you don't.
However, as usual with all things Jordan, EVERYBODY now needs to be like Jordan to be considered the GOAT. There are other ways to do it. LeBron's game is more well rounded and is more along the lines of a Bird or Magic and since those guys won a combined 8 rings, that can win multiple NBA titles for you.
Here's the problem, however. He doesn't have the ball handling skills to be Magic and he doesn't have the shooting touch or the low post presence of Bird and, so far, hasn't shown the killer instinct of Jordan, Bird, or Magic.
The physical stuff he can work on. IMO, he's got more of a chance of being like Bird. A huge small forward. He needs to work on post moves and a mid range game because athleticism doesn't last forever. Will he ever be the knock down shooter Bird was?? Probably not, but his athleticism would more than make up for that because of the things he could do that Bird couldn't. Bird could be the best player on the floor while scoring only 15 points. LeBron hasn't figured out how to do that yet.
The killer instinct, I'm not sure you can work on that. You either have it or you don't.
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No. 16
Footballguy
2/10Still can't put him at Nick Anderson's level.Though he peaked in Chicago at 5/10.
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Jackstraw
Footballguy
The dude is 6'8" and has NO post game whatsoever. Throw in his mercurial jumper and you can see how good teams can shut him down.
He's been doing what he wants for so long nobody could convince him to back someone into the post. If he could no way the mavs could check him with Terry or Jason Kidd.
He's been doing what he wants for so long nobody could convince him to back someone into the post. If he could no way the mavs could check him with Terry or Jason Kidd.
No. 16
Footballguy
He has improved his defense, but otherwise he is remarkably the same player. Just shows how freakin good he was when he came into the league.
TLEF316
Footballguy
His jumper is better IMO. It certainly looks better, if nothing else.His lack of a post game really is remarkable though. He should be able to massacre any player in the league 6'10 or under on the low block (minus a handful of exceptional defenders). But he doesn't even try. I was stunned how many contested jump shots he shot late in games during these playoffs.
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