Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)

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I think it's fair to say Kobe deserved both one more MVP and about 5 less defensive first teams.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Larry attended Indiana State university for 3 years.

Kobe did not go to college, instead jumping straight into the NBA.

Bird barely averaged one 3 pointer a game his last year.

Kobe made the All NBA Defensive 1st team an NBA record 9 times (2nd team 3 times)

Bird never made the 1st team in his career (2nd team 3 times)

In Bird's last season, 2 made 3PT per game led the league in makes. 1.2 made 3PT over a full season would have been in the gray ink.

If anything, Bird is underrated as a 3PT shooter. He was shooting them at a high percentage in high volume at a time when few players were. 3PTA volume didn't spike until the first generation of players who shot threes in high school, club ball, and college joined the NBA.

Analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger have proven over and over that Kobe didn't deserve several of his All-D awards. Not enough tough assignments over enough minutes.

What do/did people generally think about Bird defensively? You don't hear much about it. Not asking to make a point in any sort of player comparison, genuinely curious.

Most underrated part of Bird's game is his defensive rebounding. Once he got inside position, it was tough to get him out. And he was big enough to prevent helicopters from jumping over him. He finished his career at four boards above exactly 10.0 RPG.

Bird wasn't a guy who could shut down wings when isolated. But he was such a good rebounder, Bird played a lot of PF on defense anyway.

Not a rim protector, but otherwise a good help defender. Really good at sliding over to double-team and cause a turnover.

Occasionally played D a little recklessly. Sometimes he would leave his man to try to intercept a skip pass he saw coming away from the ball. When it worked, it was a turnover and easy bucket for the Celtics. When it didn't, it was an odd-man rush to the bucket with Bird behind the play.

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

Larry attended Indiana State university for 3 years.

Kobe did not go to college, instead jumping straight into the NBA.

Bird barely averaged one 3 pointer a game his last year.

Kobe made the All NBA Defensive 1st team an NBA record 9 times (2nd team 3 times)

Bird never made the 1st team in his career (2nd team 3 times)

In Bird's last season, 2 made 3PT per game led the league in makes. 1.2 made 3PT over a full season would have been in the gray ink.

If anything, Bird is underrated as a 3PT shooter. He was shooting them at a high percentage in high volume at a time when few players were. 3PTA volume didn't spike until the first generation of players who shot threes in high school, club ball, and college joined the NBA.

Analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger have proven over and over that Kobe didn't deserve several of his All-D awards. Not enough tough assignments over enough minutes.

Still. I'll give Kobe the nod over Bird defensively.In every other facet, Bird was greater. Kobe lasted longer, but he was never as good as Birds best years. And a three year run in a league with Magic & Kareem is pretty damn impressive.

Kobe, during his peak, lost out on two MVPs to Steve Nash.

Analysts like Bill Simmons and Hubie Brown have said over and over that Kobe deserved at least one more MVP, often citing one of Nash's.

Which season(s)?

ETA: IMO you're giving Simmons too much credit referring to him as an "analyst". "Commentator", sure.

 

[JMon348]

Larry attended Indiana State university for 3 years.

Kobe did not go to college, instead jumping straight into the NBA.

Bird barely averaged one 3 pointer a game his last year.

Kobe made the All NBA Defensive 1st team an NBA record 9 times (2nd team 3 times)

Bird never made the 1st team in his career (2nd team 3 times)

In Bird's last season, 2 made 3PT per game led the league in makes. 1.2 made 3PT over a full season would have been in the gray ink.

If anything, Bird is underrated as a 3PT shooter. He was shooting them at a high percentage in high volume at a time when few players were. 3PTA volume didn't spike until the first generation of players who shot threes in high school, club ball, and college joined the NBA.

Analysts like Zach Lowe and John Hollinger have proven over and over that Kobe didn't deserve several of his All-D awards. Not enough tough assignments over enough minutes.

Still. I'll give Kobe the nod over Bird defensively.In every other facet, Bird was greater. Kobe lasted longer, but he was never as good as Birds best years. And a three year run in a league with Magic & Kareem is pretty damn impressive.

Kobe, during his peak, lost out on two MVPs to Steve Nash.

My list was for career's, not peaks.

Kobe's career is a tier higher than Bird's IMO, and it's ok if you have a different opinion, but saying it's laughable isn't right.

ETA:

I'm biased towards Kobe's peak. Would have loved to see him play with 2-3 consistent HOF's his whole peak like Bird and Duncan did.

 

[tommyGunZ]

I think it's fair to say Kobe deserved both one more MVP and about 5 less defensive first teams.

I agree with this.

 

[Tau837]

This isn't a Kobe thread.

 

[Frostillicus]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

Where's Bobby Jackson fit?

 

[Spartans Rule]

Revised top 10:

Wilt Chamberlain

Paul Pierce

JoJo White

Clyde Lovellette

Kirk Hinrich

Danny Manning

Bill Bridges

Drew Gooden

Mario Chalmers

Raef LaFrentz

Where's Bobby Jackson fit?

Somewhere between Steve Smith and Mateen Cleaves.

 

[tonydead]

This isn't a Kobe thread.

Back on topic I haven't seen that much flopping since the time a big mouth fell off my hook and landed in the boat.

 

[tonydead]

Flop 1 almost identical to Flop 2

 

[tonydead]

Oh my head hurts

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

All-Time Top 10, Version 3.0

1. Kevin McHale

2. Lou Hudson

3. Mychal Thompson

4. Bobby Jackson

5. Trent Tucker

6. Willie Burton

7. Ray Williams

8. Archie Clark

9. Jim Petersen

10. Voshon Lenard

 

[Bruce Dickinson]

My list was for career's, not peaks.

Career's what?

Kobe's career is a tier higher than Bird's IMO, and it's ok if you have a different opinion, but saying it's laughable isn't right.

Yeah, can you believe one guy in this Bird v Kobe debate made a post that solely consisted of four smileys? That's not right.

ETA:

I'm biased towards Kobe's peak. Would have loved to see him play with 2-3 consistent HOF's his whole peak like Bird and Duncan did.

There's a strong argument that it's Kobe's own fault that didn't happen. That's not a road you want to go down.

You're overstating the quality of the SAS roster during a lot of Duncan's tenure. There's a couple SAS titles where Duncan played with a couple of HOF names who weren't playing at a HOF level.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

bump

 

[cstu]

...in a city not named Miami or Cleveland.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

Put this down in history.

LBJ will never win an NBA championship. He doesnt have the killer instinct or clutch play to become the best. He'll never be Magic and no way will he ever be Jordan.

I still think he'll become one of the best players in the NBA, but he'll be just like Peyton Manning. All stats and no rings.

If it takes a supposed franchise savior 3 NBA season before he hits a game winner... there's a problem. What's even worse is he has been considered "the man" practially since he put on a Cavs jersey.

Wade amd Melo on the other hand will win their fair share of championships.

at Melo ever sniffing a title. I guess his fair share is zero though, so maybe that statement is correct.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

...after going down 4-0

 

[Jayrok]

ah, he'll win at least 3 titles.  Book it.  

 

[cstu]

Jordan at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 3 NBA MVP's

Lebron at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 4 NBA MVP's

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Serious question. Has anybody else ever led a Finals in the 5 main statistical categories before? (pts, rebs, asts, stls, blks)

 

[TLEF316]

This doesn't make sense. He didn't make any GAME WINNERZ AT 19!!!!!!!!!1111

Dumbest thread ever. This guy is the chosen one. Always has been and it was obvious when he was 17 years old.  Probably the greatest physical basketball talent ever born. Anyone could have seen that multiple championships were coming unless his leg fell off.

 

[JNox3]

Serious question. Has anybody else ever led a Finals in the 5 main statistical categories before? (pts, rebs, asts, stls, blks)

No...he's the first

 

[TobiasFunke]

While we're here can we also make fun of the OP for comparing LeBron to fellow all-stats, no-rings guy Peyton Manning?  I like that he packed even more hot-take wrongness into the post than the title indicates.

 

[TLEF316]

"Carmello will get his fair share"

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Put this down in history.

LBJ will never win an NBA championship. He doesnt have the killer instinct or clutch play to become the best. He'll never be Magic and no way will he ever be Jordan.

I still think he'll become one of the best players in the NBA, but he'll be just like Peyton Manning. All stats and no rings.

If it takes a supposed franchise savior 3 NBA season before he hits a game winner... there's a problem. What's even worse is he has been considered "the man" practially since he put on a Cavs jersey.

Wade amd Melo on the other hand will win their fair share of championships.

This is 6 wrong predictions (and zero correct) in 8 sentences. Impressive

 

[Bobcat10]

While we're here can we also make fun of the OP for comparing LeBron to fellow all-stats, no-rings guy Peyton Manning?  I like that he packed even more hot-take wrongness into the post than the title indicates.

Poor #16

 

[Joe T]

Jordan at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 3 NBA MVP's

Lebron at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 4 NBA MVP's

Let's not do this.

 

[rockaction]

While we're here can we also make fun of the OP for comparing LeBron to fellow all-stats, no-rings guy Peyton Manning?  I like that he packed even more hot-take wrongness into the post than the title indicates.

Yeah, but at the same time, I think the OP deserves credit for that thread he started about his ex-girlfriend who had sort of shacked up with a personal trainer. I kind of thought he was an amiable guy in that thread.  

 

[Gary Coal Man]

This doesn't make sense. He didn't make any GAME WINNERZ AT 19!!!!!!!!!1111

Dumbest thread ever. This guy is the chosen one. Always has been and it was obvious when he was 17 years old.  Probably the greatest physical basketball talent ever born. Anyone could have seen that multiple championships were coming unless his leg fell off.

This other guy has a pretty good argument for that title too....

"Wilt took up his first love of track and field at the University of Kansas in Lawrence, Kansas while also playing basketball there. The 7'2" goliath ran a sub 11 second 100 yard dash and also threw the shot put 56 feet. Despite competing and excelling in both sprinting and throwing his best events were not surprisingly the jumping events as Chamberlain triple jumped in excess of 50 feet and successfully won the Big 8 Conference high jumping competition three years in a row. In the world of track and field it is an extraordinarily rare athlete that can compete at the highest level in the shortest sprints, all the jumping events, and the throwing events. This dynamic collection of talents is so rare in fact that Wilt might be the only man ever to possess this unique skill set."

Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/4113288

 

[need2know]

Put this down in history.

LBJ will never win an NBA championship. He doesnt have the killer instinct or clutch play to become the best. He'll never be Magic and no way will he ever be Jordan.

I still think he'll become one of the best players in the NBA, but he'll be just like Peyton Manning. All stats and no rings.

If it takes a supposed franchise savior 3 NBA season before he hits a game winner... there's a problem. What's even worse is he has been considered "the man" practially since he put on a Cavs jersey.

Wade amd Melo on the other hand will win their fair share of championships.

Oops

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Melo might still win his fair share

,,,if LBJ goes to NY

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

To be fair, Melo's fair share is about 0.  So he's right on there.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Jordan at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 3 NBA MVP's

Lebron at 31 - 3 NBA titles and Finals MVP's, 4 NBA MVP's

Jordan 0 Finals losses

Bron 4 four FOUR Finals losses

 

[Bobcat10]

Jordan 0 Finals losses

Bron 4 four FOUR Finals losses

So you're saying Jordan had been to 3 compared to Lebrons 7? Noted.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

Jordan 0 Finals losses

Bron 4 four FOUR Finals losses

Jordan lost earlier in the playoffs 4 more times than LBJ

 

[Peyton Marino]

labrawn jaaaaymes

 

[cstu]

So you're saying Jordan had been to 3 compared to Lebrons 7? Noted.

Jordan by 31 - 3 NBA Finals appearances

Lebron by 31 - 7 NBA Finals appearances (more than Jordan) (ranked)

Players with the most NBA Finals appearances:

12 Bill Russell BOS ('57-'69)
11 Sam Jones BOS ('58-'69)
10 Kareem Abdul-Jabbar MIL, LAL ('71-'89)
9 Jerry West LAL ('62-'73)
9 Magic Johnson LAL ('80-91)
9 Tom Heinsohn BOS ('57-'65)
8 Elgin Baylor MNL, LAL ('59-'70)
8 Frank Ramsey BOS ('57-'64)
8 John Havlicek BOS ('63-'76)
8 K.C. Jones BOS ('59-'66)
8 Michael Cooper LAL ('80-'89)
8 Tom Sanders BOS ('61-'69)
7 Bob Cousy BOS ('57-'63)
7 Derek Fisher LAL ('00-'10)
7 Kobe Bryant LAL ('00-'10)
7 Robert Horry HOU, LAL, SAS ('94-'07)
7 Slater Martin MNL, STL ('50-'60)
7 LeBron James CLE, MIA, CLE ('07-'16)

 

[ghostguy123]

Jordan 0 Finals losses

Bron 4 four FOUR Finals losses

I think a question like this should be asked in job interviews. 

"Do you think it is better to go 3-0 in the NBA finals or 3-4"?

Anyone saying 3-0 is automatically rejected.

 

[ShamrockPride]

Also should be noted, why does Bron only have a .1% advantage in career fg%, especially when he plays so much closer to the rim than MJ did?

 

[ghostguy123]

Also should be noted, why does Bron only have a .1% advantage in career fg%, especially when he plays so much closer to the rim than MJ did?

And any comments like this on a resume get tossed in the trash and urinated on.

 

[Tau837]

Lebron through 13 NBA seasons:

• 3 championships in 7 Finals appearances
  
• 4 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, ROY
  
• 10 1st team All NBA selections, 5 1st team All Defense selections
  
• Regular season: 27.2 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 topg, .498 FG%, .340 3FG%, .744 FT%
  
• Postseason: 28.0 ppg, 8.8 rpg, 6.8 apg, 1.8 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.5 topg, .478 FG%, .321 3FG%, .746 FT%
  

Jordan through 13 NBA seasons:

• 6 championships in 6 Finals appearances
  
• 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, ROY, 1 DPOY
  
• 10 1st team All NBA selections, 9 1st team All Defense selections
  
• Regular season: 31.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 topg, .505 FG%, .327 3fg%, .835 FT%
  
• Postseason: 33.4 ppg, 6.4 rpg, 5.7 apg, 2.1 spg, 0.9 bpg, 3.1 topg, .487 FG%, .332 3fg%, .828 FT%
  

ETA: It is also worth noting that Jordan effectively achieved those honors/awards in 11 seasons, not 13, since he played only 18 games in 1985-86 due to injury and only 17 games in 1994-95 when he returned from his baseball sabbatical.

 

[The Man With No Name]

I think a question like this should be asked in job interviews. 

"Do you think it is better to go 3-0 in the NBA finals or 3-4"?

Anyone saying 3-0 is automatically rejected.

Jordan had $93,772,500 in career NBA earnings.

Lebron has $169,643,842 in career NBA earnings and he's nowhere near done

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think a question like this should be asked in job interviews. 

"Do you think it is better to go 3-0 in the NBA finals or 3-4"?

Anyone saying 3-0 is automatically rejected.

Exactly.  It's like when someone says Montana being 4-0 in Super Bowls is more impressive than Brady being 4-2.  It's not. 

 

[ShamrockPride]

And any comments like this on a resume get tossed in the trash and urinated on.

Do elaborate on your disagreement. 

 

[Tau837]

Exactly.  It's like when someone says Montana being 4-0 in Super Bowls is more impressive than Brady being 4-2.  It's not. 

Sure, but 6-0 > 3-4

 

[Ghost Rider]

Sure, but 6-0 > 3-4

I agree, but my comment was based on the 3-0 vs 3-4 remark. 

 

[ghostguy123]

Do elaborate on your disagreement. 

I didn't disagree with anything.  It was just a stupid comment on your part.

 

[ghostguy123]

Sure, but 6-0 > 3-4

correct.  But 6-1 is better than 6-0

 

[Tau837]

correct.  But 6-1 is better than 6-0

Sure, we can make up numbers and compare them all day. 6-0 vs. 3-4 is what is actually germane to this discussion.

 

[ghostguy123]

Lebron through 13 NBA seasons:

• 3 championships in 7 Finals appearances
  
• 4 MVPs, 3 Finals MVPs, ROY
  
• 10 1st team All NBA selections, 5 1st team All Defense selections
  
• 27.2 ppg, 7.2 rpg, 6.9 apg, 1.7 spg, 0.8 bpg, 3.4 topg, .498 FG%, .340 3FG%, .744 FT% (regular season)
  

Jordan through 13 NBA seasons:

• 6 championships in 6 Finals appearances
  
• 5 MVPs, 6 Finals MVPs, ROY, 1 DPOY
  
• 10 1st team All NBA selections, 9 1st team All Defense selections
  
• 31.5 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.5 spg, 0.9 bpg, 2.8 topg, .505 FG%, .332 3fg%, .835 FT% (regular season)
  

Good stuff.  With or without this I would never dispute anyone who says MJ was the best ever.  I think he was.  There are some arguments to be made for other guys.  I have heard them, and I go with MJ.