avoiding injuries
Footballguy
How many more championships would Jordan have if he left the Bulls to construct his own all-star team instead of playing for the Barons?
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Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
cstu
Footballguy
I'm a huge MJ fan but it's not fair to hold Lebron's first years in the league against him when MJ was playing against college players from age 18-20.
ShamrockPride
Footballguy
Explain why it's stupid then. I would like to hear. I'm always open to differing viewpoints.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
He was also much more physically mature when he started. LeBron entered the NBA at a much younger age.
Tau837
Footballguy
How is it holding it against him? He was 2nd team All NBA in his second season and 1st team All NBA in his third season.
Tau837
Footballguy
Interesting that you used the term "physically mature." I'm pretty sure Lebron was much more physically developed entering the NBA than Jordan. Jordan bulked up after he started taking beatings from the Bad Boys Pistons teams.
Jordan was presumably more emotionally mature and perhaps had a better developed basketball IQ entering the league because of his college and Olympic experience. But I don't really see a big difference here, given Lebron was 2nd team All NBA in his second NBA season.
Premier
Footballguy
matuski
Footballguy
This is serious stuff, and only those of us that understand advanced analytics get it.come on. Even Duncan would say that's nuts.
MDAGF% is all I need to point to.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Doctor Detroit
Please remove your headgear
Well it was less than three years difference and I think many people consider LeBron to be the most physically gifted player to ever play. He was 6'8" and 240 pounds coming out of high school, he was a monster. Jordan was tremendously athletic but James had the better physical tools when he was 18 than Jordan ever had.
cstu
Footballguy
Maybe this is more clear - Lebron's career from age 18-31 is not the same as Jordan's career from age 21-34.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Physically mature isn't the same thing as bulk. Of course James has been larger. He's a completely different body type - he's a forward and Jordan was a guard.
There's a reason the NFL doesn't let 18 years olds play, and it isn't simply mass.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yes, and at 35 he will have better physical tools that Jordan did. His ceiling, physically, is just higher. Look at him at 21 vs Jordan at 21. Just saying if his first 13 years started then, he'd likely be doing even better against Jordan's stats.
Insein
Footballguy
Premier
Footballguy
Yup. I love that people hold finals losses against Lebron, but then don't hold regular ol playoff losses against Jordan. Takes some real magic to try and make that argument stick.
Bruce Dickinson
Footballguy
No. No. No. No one has ever had a Finals performance like the one we just saw LeBron have. Not in the history of the sport.
Not saying these last two weeks make LeBron the GOAT, but Jordan never had a Finals where he played this well.
Even with that... the two playing styles are so different it's unfair to both to try to equate them. Offensively, LeBron is a lot more like Magic than Jordan. And defensively, LeBron is more like... well, I can't think of a good analogue. Maybe Pistons-era Rodman before he became a rebounding specialist. Maybe mid-2000s Garnett when he should still chase the ball around without losing track of where he would go to get the rebound.
Tau837
Footballguy
First off, Jordan's first 13 seasons took him to age 35, not 34.
Aside from that, IMO this is being overstated. Jordan played 101 games at UNC; Lebron played 79 games as a rookie in the NBA. By the time he turned 20, he had played more games in the NBA than Jordan did in college. And he gained NBA experience in playing those games, which was better than college experience. Lebron's season 4 was equivalent to Jordan's rookie season in the NBA, and Lebron had 251 games of NBA experience by the time he started his 4th season.
Furthermore, we know that in Jordan's next 3 seasons after age 31, he added 3 championships, 2 MVPs, and 3 Finals MVPs. I doubt Lebron will match that. If he does, then he may very well justifiably be viewed as the GOAT.
cstu
Footballguy
I'm not saying he's better than Jordan yet, but he's clearly on that path. If he wins a couple more MVP's and another title (especially if it's for the Cavs) playing like he just did then I'm going to declare him GOAT.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
elguapo07
Footballguy
Really? I'll even exclude Jordan, you may want to take a look what Shaq did from '00 to '02.
And I realize it doesn't count because basketball reference doesn't have too much on it but you may want to research the 1962 finals to see what Bill Russell and Elgin Baylor did.
Here's a preview - Baylor scored 61pts in game 5 while Russell went 30 and 40(that is rebounds) in game 7 while averaging 27 boards per game.
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Premier
Footballguy
Kobe went 6-24 in a game 7 and Lebron just put on what was an absolutely dominating performance in all phases of the game.
Makes sense!
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matuski
Footballguy
No I don't.
This seems to come up over and over again lately. You should read the thread.
Also, Timmy > Lebron.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
It's interesting what one series has done for LeBron - we now can have a reasonable and valid conversation about he and Jordan and who is better. I'm not sure anybody other than the biggest James supporter was favoring James. It's doesn't seem as far-fetched now if he doesn't have a dramatic drop off.
I still have Jordan #1 as I think he wins 8 straight if Stern didn't suspend him.
I still have Jordan #1 as I think he wins 8 straight if Stern didn't suspend him.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Jordan gets older, stops taking it to the hoop anywhere near as much as he used to, and develops one of the best mid range games ever.
Lebron gets older, loses the ability to shoot, and takes it to the hoop every play.
Just crazy. Lebron is a monster.
Still Jordan for me. The numbers never tell the whole story. I think we all know Jordan wins 8 straight titles if he never retires the first time. Also, Jordan should have probably been given the MVP like 10 times. The voting on that stuff is kind of silly sometimes.
As for Lebron leading this finals in all statistical categories, while an amazing feat, this was the series to do it. Neither team has a great rebounder, great assist man, great thief, or great shot locker. Bron played like 46 minutes a game and has the ball in his hands every play, while playing D against a team playing fast and throwing up long shots with lots of rebounding opportunities.
Lebron gets older, loses the ability to shoot, and takes it to the hoop every play.
Just crazy. Lebron is a monster.
Still Jordan for me. The numbers never tell the whole story. I think we all know Jordan wins 8 straight titles if he never retires the first time. Also, Jordan should have probably been given the MVP like 10 times. The voting on that stuff is kind of silly sometimes.
As for Lebron leading this finals in all statistical categories, while an amazing feat, this was the series to do it. Neither team has a great rebounder, great assist man, great thief, or great shot locker. Bron played like 46 minutes a game and has the ball in his hands every play, while playing D against a team playing fast and throwing up long shots with lots of rebounding opportunities.
Righetti
Footballguy
I have not seen enough tape of those early NBA type games but how is it possible for a guy to get 40 boards in a game? I get that he was probably bigger than anybody else but in today's NBA a guy who grabs 14 boards in a playoff game is seen as terrific, approach 20 and it is classified as legendary. What are the most amount of boards in a single game in the modern era? What was it about the game back the ? Were there just more opportunities? More misses?elguapo07 said:
This was before the 3 so you'd think the shots would be of highe percentage
how about the 24 second clock
Comparing Lebron to Jordon just shows what a legendary figure Lebron is already. You're taking the unanimous choice of best player to ever lace up the sneakers and using it as the barometer of which to measure Lebron. Well, James finishes second in that comparison. However, he is the only one Lebron finishes second to. He accomplished something in this finals that will never happen again. Finishing 1st in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks is absolutely mind boggling. Not only has it never been done in a finals before, it has never been done in any playoff series EVER. One day, we'll tell our kids and grandkids about that and they won't believe it.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Yes. Yes. Yes. LeBron lead his team to a Finals win. Jordanesque, means Jordan-like. Not a copy, but similar in some trait, which I'm indicating he lead his team to a series win like Jordan used to.Bruce Dickinson said:
And you are right, they are different players. The Cavs went down 3-1 and Kyrie needed to score 41 with him in game 5. So, no, they aren't the same as Jordan was never down 3-1 in a Finals. Also, Pippen never scored more than 32. As for defense, Jordan was usually the best defensive player on his team as well. He did win a DPOY award, which LeBron has never done and was a 1st team all defensive player for 10 years. LeBron hasn't made an all-defensive team for a few years now. LeBron picks his spots and makes highlight reel plays, but play-by-play, nobody outworked Jordan on defense.
Kev4029
Footballguy
50s/60s NBA was played at a ridiculous pace and teams shot in the high 30%-low 40%. That season teams put up 118.8 PPG on 42% shooting. I few years ago in one of these threads I looked at Russell and Wilt's rebounding, making an approximation of missed shots while they were on the court (something like their minutes/48 * average missed shots in the NBA) and how many rebounds they grabbed. Their rebounding percentages were in line with what you would expect from a studly rebounder in today's NBA but not as good as the rebounding specialists (the guys like Reggie Evans or Marcus Camby who ditch defensive assignments to grab rebounds). Also, those guys played almost all game every game, where most all-star centers today play 32-34 mpg.
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Bobcat10
Footballguy
Exactly, and he's not even done yet. These debates could be, and probably will be one way or the other, completely different in 5 years. Yet here we are now.
matuski
Footballguy
James is solidly in the 2-5/6 argument now.It's interesting what one series has done for LeBron - we now can have a reasonable and valid conversation about he and Jordan and who is better. I'm not sure anybody other than the biggest James supporter was favoring James. It's doesn't seem as far-fetched now if he doesn't have a dramatic drop off.
I still have Jordan #1 as I think he wins 8 straight if Stern didn't suspend him.
Has some work to do (or a lot) to get into a debate versus Jordan.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Woulda been nice of Kyrie and Love weren't hurt last year. Damn it.
elguapo07
Footballguy
A few things I can think of. Early 60s teams averaged around 150 ball possessions and 118 points which us about 50% more possessions per game. Also when Wilt entered the league in 1960 there were just a handful of players taller than 6'8 - Russell being one of them. Also not only did Russell have a height advantage but he was also a superior athlete and basically dominated the game from a defensive standpoint.
The NBA has changed dramatically in the past 50yrs but people seem to lose sight/discount what guys like Russell, Wilt, Baylor, Oscar and other greats did during that error. They are in the conversation for some if the best to ever play.
Chaka
Footballguy
That was possibly the most dominant finals performance I have ever seen but I think that Magic in the 1980 finals should at least be in the conversation.
21.5 points, 11.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.7 steals, 0.3 blocks and 57.3% FG (87.5% from the stripe).
And he did it as a 20 year old rookie, single handedly clinching the series 4-2 on the road with 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists without Kareem on the floor.
21.5 points, 11.2 reb, 8.2 ast, 2.7 steals, 0.3 blocks and 57.3% FG (87.5% from the stripe).
And he did it as a 20 year old rookie, single handedly clinching the series 4-2 on the road with 42 points, 15 rebounds and 7 assists without Kareem on the floor.
Jayrod
Footballguy
LeBron's closest comparisons at this point, IMO, are Kareem, Wilt & Russell (personally I'm not that high on Russell but others like to put him up here). I feel like he has surpassed Magic & Bird at this stage. Duncan, Kobe, Shaq and Olajuwan are firmly in his rearview mirror.
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