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Lebron James will never win a championship... (1 Viewer)

1. MJ

2. Kareem

3. Wilt

4. LeBron

5. Bird

6. Magic

7. Russell

8. Duncan

9. Shaq

10. Oscar

11. Hakeem

12. Kobe

13. Moses

14. Dr J

15. Robinson

16. West

17. Barkley

18. Malone

19. Garnett

20. Hondo

 
Top player lists are so subjective.  It's hard to argue against any of these that have been posted, but I think most are basically interchangeable up or down a few notches.  Jordan, yeah..  doubt many would not have him at #1.  Stone cold killer in any situation (even in his last college game), relentless defender, etc.   And man, what he did to those morons from moron mountain.   

Kareem, imo, is the best to ever play at the center position.  When you talk positional players, it opens arguments for guys like Stockton, I. Thomas, Iverson?  Not top 10 all time, of course.

When you look at guys who could play any position on the floor, only a few come to mind... Lebron and Magic are my top 2.  Lebron plays point-center on any given possession.  Magic did the same when Kareem was out back in 198~something.  And they played them well.  That is a top tier basketball player.  Slots are interchangeable, but those two guys, imo, are top 5 all time.  

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
1. Michael Jordan

2.  Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

3.  Wilt Chamberlain 

4. Bill Russell

5. LeBron James

6.  Tim Duncan

7.  Magic Johnson

8.  Larry Bird

9.  Shaquille O'Neal

10.  Moses Malone
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No Kobe? :mellow:

 
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Jayrok said:
Top player lists are so subjective.  It's hard to argue against any of these that have been posted, but I think most are basically interchangeable up or down a few notches.  Jordan, yeah..  doubt many would not have him at #1.  Stone cold killer in any situation (even in his last college game), relentless defender, etc.   And man, what he did to those morons from moron mountain.   

Kareem, imo, is the best to ever play at the center position.  When you talk positional players, it opens arguments for guys like Stockton, I. Thomas, Iverson?  Not top 10 all time, of course.

When you look at guys who could play any position on the floor, only a few come to mind... Lebron and Magic are my top 2.  Lebron plays point-center on any given possession.  Magic did the same when Kareem was out back in 198~something.  And they played them well.  That is a top tier basketball player.  Slots are interchangeable, but those two guys, imo, are top 5 all time.  
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The thing about Magic is that while he could play offense from any position, he couldn't defend any position.  LeBron can do it on both ends of the floor.  He'd have trouble with a great big man, but not much else he can't defend.

 
Jayrod said:
The thing about Magic is that while he could play offense from any position, he couldn't defend any position.  LeBron can do it on both ends of the floor.  He'd have trouble with a great big man, but not much else he can't defend.
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I never liked the Lakers and was always pulling for the Celts in those years, but I remember Magic, Worthy, and Kareem breaking my heart.  Worthy was a fine player, but Kareem and Magic would be in my top 5-6.  I don't remember Magic being a bad defender... but what a great QB he was out there, whether leading a fast break or running a set offense.  

Agree on Lebron.  He's a polarizing player, but he is one of the best players to ever lace them up.  

 
That 1980 finals game was great, but really wasn't he just the nominal center for the tip off then went back to his more typical role, maybe playing a little more off the elbow or something? That game was before I was born, but I feel like saying he played center that game is just something to add to his legend.

 
Kev4029 said:
That 1980 finals game was great, but really wasn't he just the nominal center for the tip off then went back to his more typical role, maybe playing a little more off the elbow or something? That game was before I was born, but I feel like saying he played center that game is just something to add to his legend.
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I was a freshman in HS and remember those finals.  I was a 76er (and Dr. J) fan back then.  Magic probably played multiple positions that game, mostly PG I'm sure.  He had 42 and 15 boards.  I remember cringing when he made the Kareemesque sky hook from near the foul line.  But the game high 15 rebounds suggests that he played a lot in the paint as well. 

 
Jayrok said:
I was a freshman in HS and remember those finals.  I was a 76er (and Dr. J) fan back then.  Magic probably played multiple positions that game, mostly PG I'm sure.  He had 42 and 15 boards.  I remember cringing when he made the Kareemesque sky hook from near the foul line.  But the game high 15 rebounds suggests that he played a lot in the paint as well. 
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Magic started at center in that game (6) and played every position at some point during the game.

 
As an aside, is there a more under-rated player in history than David Robinson?  For example, Garnett is regularly placed ~#20 all time and Robinson is in the mid-30's.  Robinson's career compares well to Garnett and he had two NBA titles despite coming into the league 5 years later than Garnett. Both had VORP rankings in the top 5 a total of 8 times.

 
cstu said:
As an aside, is there a more under-rated player in history than David Robinson?  For example, Garnett is regularly placed ~#20 all time and Robinson is in the mid-30's.  Robinson's career compares well to Garnett and he had two NBA titles despite coming into the league 5 years later than Garnett. Both had VORP rankings in the top 5 a total of 8 times.
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Jayrod said:
15. Robinson

19. Garnett
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:coffee:

ETA:  Robinson was a better offensive player than Garnett and an equal defensive player.

 
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cstu said:
As an aside, is there a more under-rated player in history than David Robinson?  For example, Garnett is regularly placed ~#20 all time and Robinson is in the mid-30's.  Robinson's career compares well to Garnett and he had two NBA titles despite coming into the league 5 years later than Garnett. Both had VORP rankings in the top 5 a total of 8 times.
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Right or wrong, Robinson gets knocked for both his championships: the first was a lockout season, and the second was during his retirement season with the league and finals MVP on his team.

Garnett was DPOY the year the Celtics won it with him.

 
Maybe it's just me, but I'll still take Larry over LeBron.  Larry was a cold blooded assassin.  One shot to win or lose, who do you want taking the shot??  

Jordan is probably the only player that might have an argument over Larry in that last second situation.

 
Of course, I always thought it was unfair that Magic seems to automatically be ranked higher than Larry because he "won" their head to head 2-1 when the Lakers didn't even make the Finals the one year I know the Celtics would have pounded them.  In 1986.  The Celtics that year were so bored to get the Rockets they actually dropped 2 games.  They might have swept the Lakers.

Anyway, just my .02

 
saintsfan said:
Maybe it's just me, but I'll still take Larry over LeBron.  Larry was a cold blooded assassin.  One shot to win or lose, who do you want taking the shot??  

Jordan is probably the only player that might have an argument over Larry in that last second situation.
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Me.

Nobody to blame but myself if I miss.

But that thing is going in, one way or another.

 
saintsfan said:
Maybe it's just me, but I'll still take Larry over LeBron.  Larry was a cold blooded assassin.  One shot to win or lose, who do you want taking the shot??  

Jordan is probably the only player that might have an argument over Larry in that last second situation.
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Using this standard, Reggie Miller is a top 5 all-time NBA player. 

Note: I am/was a big Bird fan. 

 
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saintsfan said:
Reggie Miller is not in THAT room in the HOF.  Larry is.

That's not the only criteria, but to me it should be considered as a tiebreaker.
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That's fine, but there can be many tiebreakers used.  I often argue that Bird is ahead of Magic on the all-time list, which many disagree with.  

I would also argue that LBJ's block the other night was about as big a clutch defensive play as we've ever seen in an NBA finals game.  

 
saintsfan said:
Maybe it's just me, but I'll still take Larry over LeBron.  Larry was a cold blooded assassin.  One shot to win or lose, who do you want taking the shot??  

Jordan is probably the only player that might have an argument over Larry in that last second situation.
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Larry was a great player. Top ten for sure. Doesn't have near the skillset that Lebron has.  To answer your 'one shot' question, I'd lean towards Bird. He was one of the best shooters ever.

 
Ghost Rider said:
That's fine, but there can be many tiebreakers used.  I often argue that Bird is ahead of Magic on the all-time list, which many disagree with.  

I would also argue that LBJ's block the other night was about as big a clutch defensive play as we've ever seen in an NBA finals game.  
Click to expand...
I've been preaching Bird over Magic for years.

 
Jayrod said:
I've been preaching Bird over Magic for years.
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Magic always seems to get the nod over Bird because he won more titles, but he had Kareem for all of them.  Bird had a great team around him, too, but never had a fellow top 10 all-timer with him.  Bird was a better scorer, better defensively, better rebounder and his best was better than Magic's best.  Both won the MVP three times, but I contend that Magic's MVPs in the later 80s were gifts from the media since he hadn't won any prior to 1987 and they held back giving too many to Jordan (the best player already at the time) until he had more playoff success. 

 
coyote5 said:
L.A. in the 80s... no cell phones, no TMZ...  what a time to be alive!
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These threads have occasionally tangented to how Jordan would have handled social media and ninja-level paparazzi as a player.  I don't think we've discussed what effect it might have had on Magic. I suppose there's the whole HIV+ thing he's been managing the last 25 years, but I suspect he fit more living into 1977-1991 than most people do in their whole lives.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Magic always seems to get the nod over Bird because he won more titles, but he had Kareem for all of them.  Bird had a great team around him, too, but never had a fellow top 10 all-timer with him.  Bird was a better scorer, better defensively, better rebounder and his best was better than Magic's best.  Both won the MVP three times, but I contend that Magic's MVPs in the later 80s were gifts from the media since he hadn't won any prior to 1987 and they held back giving too many to Jordan (the best player already at the time) until he had more playoff success. 
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EXACTLY!!!

My Reasons for Bird over Magic (I've stated these somewhere before):

1. Defense - Bird was clearly a better defender.  This isn't even a debate.

2. Skillsets - Magic's best skill was passing.  Bird was a great passer himself.  Bird's best skill was shooting.  Magic was an average shooter.  They were equal rebounders, Bird just benefited from more opportunity there (like Magic with assists).  The only clear advantage Magic had on Bird would be ball handling, but Bird was above average there too, he just wasn't called on to handle the ball as much.

3. Peak - Bird had 3 straight MVP's during their prime years.  He also won ROY over Magic.  When they were both at their best, Bird was considered better.

4. Teammates - Magic had better teammates, including the guy I consider the 2nd greatest player of all time, Kareem and a great player in Worthy.  Bird had McHale and Parish (who I don't consider a great player).  He should have won more titles with those guys.

The only arguments for Magic is that he won more titles.  A lot of people fall for his smile and flashy play, but Bird was a cold-blooded assassin before MJ, Reggie or Kobe ever stepped foot in the NBA.  He did everything he could to win until his body broke down on him.  Magic was the greatest PG to ever play the game, but until LeBron came along, Bird was the greatest SF.  Its close, but for the 4 reasons above, I rank Bird ahead by a nose.

 
JuniorNB said:
Larry was a great player. Top ten for sure. Doesn't have near the skillset that Lebron has.  To answer your 'one shot' question, I'd lean towards Bird. He was one of the best shooters ever.
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See this is the other frustrating thing.  What skill set??  LeBron certainly is more athletic, a better defender, and a better ball handler.

Larry is, IMO, a better shooter, passer, free throw shooter, and rebounder.  The numbers back these things up.  In addition, Larry certainly had a more varied offensive game.  Inside and outside.  People forget how good Larry was around the basket with his back to the basket able to finish with either hand.  He wasn't just a bigger Reggie Miller.  And once again, which one are you giving the ball to in the last second??  Larry was a closer to the nth degree.

I'm not sure how the above equals LeBron having a far superior skill set.  Far superior athleticism??  Sure, but the same can be said about almost every other player in the top 10.  Larry had SERIOUS basketball skills.

 
saintsfan said:
See this is the other frustrating thing.  What skill set??  LeBron certainly is more athletic, a better defender, and a better ball handler.

Larry is, IMO, a better shooter, passer, free throw shooter, and rebounder.  The numbers back these things up.  In addition, Larry certainly had a more varied offensive game.  Inside and outside.  People forget how good Larry was around the basket with his back to the basket able to finish with either hand.  He wasn't just a bigger Reggie Miller.  And once again, which one are you giving the ball to in the last second??  Larry was a closer to the nth degree.

I'm not sure how the above equals LeBron having a far superior skill set.  Far superior athleticism??  Sure, but the same can be said about almost every other player in the top 10.  Larry had SERIOUS basketball skills.
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The skillset that it takes to be the only player to ever lead a playoff series in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Yes, athleticism plays into it. And Bird was not a better passer. Both are legendary in that respect. And Lebron would out-rebound Bird any day of the week if he wasn't playing point guard most of the time and defending guards. The only thing I'd give Bird is shooting.

 
JuniorNB said:
The skillset that it takes to be the only player to ever lead a playoff series in points, rebounds, assists, steals, and blocks. Yes, athleticism plays into it. And Bird was not a better passer. Both are legendary in that respect. And Lebron would out-rebound Bird any day of the week if he wasn't playing point guard most of the time and defending guards. The only thing I'd give Bird is shooting.
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OK, so Larry averaging like 4 more rebounds a game doesn't matter.  And the fact that Lebron plays point guard a lot means he should average a bunch more assists too.  Except he doesn't.  And the fact that Larry is only a better shooter means Lebron should average a bunch more points.  Except he doesn't.

If we aren't going to use any kind of numbers, what's the point??  

 
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saintsfan said:
See this is the other frustrating thing.  What skill set??  LeBron certainly is more athletic, a better defender, and a better ball handler.

Larry is, IMO, a better shooter, passer, free throw shooter, and rebounder.  The numbers back these things up.  In addition, Larry certainly had a more varied offensive game.  Inside and outside.  People forget how good Larry was around the basket with his back to the basket able to finish with either hand.  He wasn't just a bigger Reggie Miller.  And once again, which one are you giving the ball to in the last second??  Larry was a closer to the nth degree.

I'm not sure how the above equals LeBron having a far superior skill set.  Far superior athleticism??  Sure, but the same can be said about almost every other player in the top 10.  Larry had SERIOUS basketball skills.
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LeBron >>> Bird as a passer. 

Bird was a better shooter but LeBron is the superior scorer. 

 
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Cliff Clavin said:
LeBron >>> Bird as a passer. 

Bird was a better shooter but LeBron is the superior scorer. 
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Bird was on par with LeBron as a passer, and a better shooter.

Outside of that, LeBron is better than Bird.  I'm a Bird fan/supporter, but the "Greatest SF in History" is firmly around LeBron's neck at this point.

 
saintsfan said:
Sorry.  Disagree and the numbers don't agree either.
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Basic per game: LBJ 6.9 > 6.3

Per 36: LBJ 6.4 > 6

Per 100 possessions: LBJ 9.4 > 7.9

Ast %: LBJ 34.6 > 24.7

TS%: LBJ .581 > .564

For playoff numbers, the advantage grows in almost every category. Your numbers please.

 
He plays point guard most of the time and the assists per game are within 1 assist??

Not sure how this equals a much better passer AND he plays point guard much of the time.

 
saintsfan said:
OK, so Larry averaging like 4 more rebounds a game doesn't matter.  And the fact that Lebron plays point guard a lot means he should average a bunch more assists too.  Except he doesn't.  And the fact that Larry is only a better shooter means Lebron should average a bunch more points.  Except he doesn't.

If we aren't going to use any kind of numbers, what's the point??  
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The pace of the NBA through most of Bird's career was much faster than through most of Lebron's career and benches were much thinner so starters played more minutes. Pace adjusted, Bird averaged 30.3 pts, 7.9 ast, 12.5 reb, 2.2 stls, 1.0 blks per 100 possessions with a 23.5 PER and .564 TS%. Lebron averages 36.9 pts, 9.4 ast, 9.7 rebs, 2.3 stls, 1.1 blocks per 100 possessions with a 27.7 PER and .581 TS%.

Just wanted to give everybody an apples to apples comparison.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Solid numbers that disagree. 
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You posted great numbers.  I was trying to put them in some kind of context.  A guy who plays point guard much of the time should have way more assists.  He doesn't.

I didn't say Bird had more assists or averaged more.  I said that if Lebron was the way better passer, the numbers should reflect that he is far and away better.  They don't.  Having watched both of them, to me, Bird was the far better play maker.

I am not unbiased so it's just my opinion, obviously

 
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