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Liz Cheney “History is watching us.” (1 Viewer)

Zow said:
The posts are inherently nonsensical.
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I don't think so. I'm a conservative embarrassed by the current state of the Republican party and won't vote for them, but there's no confusing tim with a Republican. He says he is, but then deviates from about every policy that conservatives since the 80s have stood for. He might be a Rockefeller Republican at best, or an oddball California Republican, the type that was hinted at in the Arnold Schwarzenegger profile they just did in the NY Times, but he's not really a Republican. At all. 

 
lazyike said:
I am not suggesting that Liz Cheney has changed her thinking on gay rights but many Democrats including Obama evolved and flip flopped on same sex marriage.

https://time.com/3816952/obama-gay-lesbian-transgender-lgbt-rights/
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I don't think he's getting at the fundamentals of supporting one policy or another. It's her sister that she didn't really support, which makes it a different dynamic than just policy. That cuts a little close to home, and is no longer an abstract support of a position, but a refusal of kin.

Do I condemn her for it? Not really, probably because I remember when gay couples' outings weren't something families felt obliged to attend. Perhaps that's the bigoted way of doing things, but I still remember how visceral and real those attitudes were, and how it could be a disappointment at the heart of it for parents and family, even if they still loved that person.

I must say, though, that even for the times, the more tolerant side of me definitely would have prevailed (I had chances to support, and did way back in high school in the late eighties even) and I would have supported my sibling and gone to the ceremony, no questions -- but for me to judge others for not going is not something I'd really do. Perhaps I tolerate the intolerant too much. 

 
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Liberals are so stupid sometimes.  Cheney is doing the lords work, right now, on the biggest threat to its existence the country has faced since the Civil War.  Who cares what her positions are on other things right now?  Recognize the courage and applaud it.  Fight about the other stuff if democracy survives the moment.

 
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The Commish said:
Don't disagree with any of this, but it really has nothing to do with what was being discussed.  I've asserted a pretty significant shift right for the GOP and people said I was wrong.  In my view, this is an example of exactly what I am talking about.  That's the only point I was making.  When you have this dramatic of a shift in personality and it's all because people aren't bowing to Trump and the narrative and it's happening at the TOP of the GOP, those are all indicators of a "sprint right" movement I am talking about.  These aren't just random, low level / new reps making noise.  This is significantly different IMO.  And to be clear, it's not to say the same kinds of problems aren't beginning to happen in the Dems, they are.  Right now it's my belief that the Dems are at the stage the GOP was with the tea party 'movement'.  It's just the Dem version.  Will the Dems end up where the GOP is right now at some point?  If I had to bet, I'd say yes, but there is time to squash that kind of nonsense.  The only question is will the Dems do it or not?
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I think there has been a shift right in some areas, but not all areas.  For instance, part of what I regarded as far right in the past was the old pro Iraq War type.  If you were against the Iraq War there was no place for you in the Republican Party at that time.  Now, that's no longer the case.  In that regard, the party has moved left on the spectrum as it pertains to that issue. I could also point to the justice reform bill that President Trump supported, something that would never have been part of the right in the past.  I think it's hard to apply the old way we looked at left and right to today.  There's been a realignment of sorts.

But as to your last few sentences I agree and I agree that it's unlikely it stops.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Liberals are so stupid sometimes.  Cheney is doing the lords work, right now, on the biggest threat to its existence the country has faced since the Civil War.  Who cares what her positions are on other things right now?  Recognize the courage and applaud it.  Fight about the other stuff if democracy survives the moment.
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People were responding to Tim’s original thread title.

 
Dinsy Ejotuz said:
Liberals are so stupid sometimes.  Cheney is doing the lords work, right now, on the biggest threat to its existence the country has faced since the Civil War.  Who cares what her positions are on other things right now?  Recognize the courage and applaud it.  Fight about the other stuff if democracy survives the moment.
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Democrats praising her probably expedites the end of her leadership position. I expect some ultra right opponent beats her in the primary next year.

 
Shula-holic said:
I think there has been a shift right in some areas, but not all areas.  For instance, part of what I regarded as far right in the past was the old pro Iraq War type.  If you were against the Iraq War there was no place for you in the Republican Party at that time.  Now, that's no longer the case.  In that regard, the party has moved left on the spectrum as it pertains to that issue. I could also point to the justice reform bill that President Trump supported, something that would never have been part of the right in the past.  I think it's hard to apply the old way we looked at left and right to today.  There's been a realignment of sorts.

But as to your last few sentences I agree and I agree that it's unlikely it stops.
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To be honest (and I realize this is going to sound disgusting but there's no nice way to say it), it's my belief that the Iraq War shift ONLY happened because the public allowed it to happen and that only happened after they were hit over the head over and over that they were lied to.  They were dragged around by emotion on that topic.  As one who was against the war from the very beginning and called every name in the book, I watched that entire thing really closely and in my view it represented everything that was/is wrong with our political machine.  It's my view that they found a political way to weasel out of their position.  There's no question in my mind if something similar happened again, and the public was cheering them on, they'd be right back at it.  

That said, I agree 100% on the justice reform bill and it was one of the things I happily posted in the silver linings thread, but right or wrong, the thought will always be in the back of my mind wondering if they went along with it because it was the right thing to do or because they were afraid to go against their leader.  I am not confident they'd be on board if a Democrat had posed the exact same legislation.  We see it too many times from both the Dems and the GOP.  It's hard for me to say if this is a permanent shift or an act in the moment.  I try not to get tied up in those kinds of thoughts and stick to the "I don't care why they did it, just glad they did" level of expectation for any/all politicians but in terms of this discussion, those kinds of things are always in the back of my mind.  

 
fatguyinalittlecoat said:
People were responding to Tim’s original thread title.
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This was more an observation from other places.  I'm seeing stuff like "doing the right thing now doesn't change..."

It's crazy.  She and Mitt are basically the only two really standing up for democracy and people are still trying to get the knife in.

 
Seems to me this country is already at war with history.   What else does she want us to do?   Nuke history back to the stone ages?

 
Never thought I'd see the day where the entire Republican Party would turn its back on a Cheney.   

Is Cheney "not a real Republican" simply because she is willing to say out loud "the emperor isn't wearing any clothes?"

 
Conservative Byron York wrote a piece today critical of Cheney: 

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/byron-yorks-daily-memo-liz-cheneys-game

IMO this opinion piece is the epitome with what is wrong with today’s GOP. York, who is a smart guy, admits in the article that the election wasn’t stolen. But Cheney is being too loud about it, too confrontational of Trump. Why can’t she just let it go? She won’t shut up and that’s why they.need to get rid of her. 

York, like McCarthy and McConnell, want to sweep this all under the rug. They want to pretend that January 6 never happened. Liz Cheney is not letting them. 

 
So who in here is saying Cheney is wrong. Skimmed the thread and was a bunch of weird discussion about who is a Republican and emoji talk.

Any board Trumpers or GOP folks care to speak up against what Cheney is saying here?

 
The General said:
So who in here is saying Cheney is wrong. Skimmed the thread and was a bunch of weird discussion about who is a Republican and emoji talk.

Any board Trumpers or GOP folks care to speak up against what Cheney is saying here?
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While I have used them I  have never found laughing emojis to be a very effective response.

 
This is really kind of interesting as well as disgusting.  Those of us on the left have long assumed the right no longer really cared about governing and more about getting paid after the citizens united ruling.  Now we see that is exactly what has happened.  There are no compromises to be had when compromising is capitulation. There are no "sacred GOPers" when Liz Cheney can be drummed out of the party leadership for simply stating the truth.

I don't really understand the end game here.  Liz Cheney is no saint (nor is Romney) but what when and how will America be able to move forward with a group of people that it's not just about Party over country, its about well healed donors over party over country?

It would be one thing to see a gingrich style "contract with america" bc at least that would be policy that could be debated, but I'm sure if someone did that and the Donald didn;t like it then they'd have to scrap it.

 
Gatorman said:
This is really kind of interesting as well as disgusting.  Those of us on the left have long assumed the right no longer really cared about governing and more about getting paid after the citizens united ruling.  Now we see that is exactly what has happened.  There are no compromises to be had when compromising is capitulation. There are no "sacred GOPers" when Liz Cheney can be drummed out of the party leadership for simply stating the truth.

I don't really understand the end game here.  Liz Cheney is no saint (nor is Romney) but what when and how will America be able to move forward with a group of people that it's not just about Party over country, its about well healed donors over party over country?

It would be one thing to see a gingrich style "contract with america" bc at least that would be policy that could be debated, but I'm sure if someone did that and the Donald didn;t like it then they'd have to scrap it.
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Actually this has already happened. The RNC refused to issue a platform last year because they were terrified that Trump might disagree with it. So their platform basically became “Whatever Trump wants.” And the Republican voters went along with it. Just shameful. 

 
timschochet said:
Actually this has already happened. The RNC refused to issue a platform last year because they were terrified that Trump might disagree with it. So their platform basically became “Whatever Trump wants.” And the Republican voters went along with it. Just shameful. 
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Seriously. The current GOP platform is whatever Trump wants. Is there any Republican here that doesn’t find that at least a little embarrassing and/or lame?

Edit:  The above statement is not entirely accurate so I should clarify. What happened during the last convention is that the GOP declined to adopt a new 2020 platform and instead issued a statement of support of Trump’s agenda, without any specifics. 

 
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timschochet said:
Probably not. It’s become a convenient thing in recent years for conservatives here to claim independence from the Republican Party, a growing number of them are also asserting that they were never Trump supporters (though they continue to defend him at every opportunity.) 
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This is false

 
timschochet said:
Yes. And about half of the folks who post in that thread in defense of Trump take umbrage whenever they are personally described as Trump supporters. 
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Right?  Just like the guys that claim they're not Socialists yet defend every socialist policy and agenda pushed forth by Democrats!

Congrats!  You are what you claim others are!

 
timschochet said:
Probably not. It’s become a convenient thing in recent years for conservatives here to claim independence from the Republican Party, a growing number of them are also asserting that they were never Trump supporters (though they continue to defend him at every opportunity.) 
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From what you shared in the past wouldn’t this describe you?

 
timschochet said:
Yes. And about half of the folks who post in that thread in defense of Trump take umbrage whenever they are personally described as Trump supporters. 
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So you are saying that if you defend/support one or several things from and individual....you have to self describe as a “supporter” of that person?

 
As a farmer I would say say the money Trump gave to farmers was a big example of socialism. We didn’t need the amount he gave...but he chose to use government money to keep the farmers vote for himself. 

 
djmich said:
So you are saying that if you defend/support one or several things from and individual....you have to self describe as a “supporter” of that person?
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Didn’t say anything like that. I was challenged and I am pointing out what’s going on, that’s all. 

 
timschochet said:
Probably not. It’s become a convenient thing in recent years for conservatives here to claim independence from the Republican Party, a growing number of them are also asserting that they were never Trump supporters (though they continue to defend him at every opportunity.) 
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I always crack up at the, “well, I’m not a Trump supporter but I like what he did and he’s better than Biden.”  Translated, I have no problem voting for an immoral grifter for President.

 
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AAABatteries said:
I always crack up at the, “well, I’m not a Trump but I like what he did and he’s better than Biden.”  Translated, I have no problem voting for an immoral grifter for President.
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That would be me.   I believe in smaller government and less taxes.   The economy was rolling before Covid.  Trump was the lesser of two evils even if he is a big a hole.  

All politicians are shady thieves that lie constantly.   Anyone that thinks their side is honest, is foolish.   

 
timschochet said:
Probably not. It’s become a convenient thing in recent years for conservatives here to claim independence from the Republican Party, a growing number of them are also asserting that they were never Trump supporters (though they continue to defend him at every opportunity.) 
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Link to this bogus claim to prove you aren’t full of crap. 

 
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