Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[Sinn Fein]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people. Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

 

[fantasycurse42]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

 

[Jim11]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Great idea. I can envision this:

Okay, rookies, here is how you don't shoot people. Keep your weapon holstered. Doesn't matter what anyone does; no shooting period.

BTW, you'll be the last class that has to learn this. Starting next year, no firearms will be carried. No shooting class will be replaced by no hitting class. Okay, at ease; smoke 'em if you got 'em.

 

[Sinn Fein]

You're really complaining now that he washed his hands? Wow. Desperation.

:sigh:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html

1. Wilson washed away blood evidence.

In an interview with police investigators, Wilson admitted that after the shooting he returned to police headquarters and washed blood off his body -- physical evidence that could have helped to prove or disprove a critical piece of Wilsons testimony regarding his struggle with Brown inside the police car. He told his interrogator that he had blood on both of his hands. I think it was his blood, Wilson said referring to Brown. He added that he was not cut anywhere.

I would actually like to hear why this matters. Lets say it was browns blood, what does that prove? Lets say it was Wilson's blood, what does that prove?

what if there was no blood, and Wilson lied about washing it off?

Please explain how it would have mattered if Wilson had zero blood on him.

Means he is a liar. but I think we already knew that, so I suppose it does not add anything new.The actions of Wilson, and the initial investigation do not pass the smell test imo. Too many rules broken. It sounds very much like he and his bosses got time to pull their story together, before he was interviewed by a detective. Even something as simple as whether Wilson knew about the prior robbery, or connected Brown changed as more information became known.

He took two punches to the head, while he was still in the car, and thought he was going to die? Seriously? This is a cop who has been briefed on how to beat these charges.

Officer involved in a shooting should be treated just like any other shooting suspect until cleared.

People cant have it both ways. They cant criticize him for washing blood off of his hands and say that doesnt follow protocol but then also say he didnt have any blood on his hands and he is lying. That is just grasping at straws. This is a stupid issue to pick. It is completely meaningless.

1. If he had blood on his hands, it means nothing whether it is his or Brown's.

2. If he didn't have blood on his hands it means nothing.

3. If he didn't have blood on his hands, he wouldnt lie about having blood on his hands, because it means nothing.

Jesus christ. If you want to pick an investigation angle to get upset about, the lack of measuring the distances is far worse. This one is 100% meaningless in every way. Illustrated perfectly by the fact that nobody could even point out how blood or no blood mattered.

why are you so hung up on the act of washing his hands as the point being made. Its about compromising a crime scene ...its about integrity of evidence...all of it...they didnt even record Wilsons statements after the shooting on the scene when the shooting was fresh in his mind...no notes ...nothing. You want answers ? Ask the cops ....Start there.

Would Wilson have been a suspect at that time? Do suspects have 5th amendment rights? Did Wilson belong to a union and have a union rep and a union lawyer speak to him immediately and if so would that be his Constitutional right and a right negotiated by contract? Do you leave open the possibility that no statements were recorded because none were given?Now I don't know the answers to all of my questions, but unless you do you seem to be marshaling arguments to support a conclusion without giving critical analysis to the arguments.

the officer who took his initial statement testified that he did not keep notes, or record the conversation. Was he in custody, to invoke any rights when giving his statement? When he gave his statement, did he have his union rep, or ask for his union rep? You can understand how this, and traveling to the hospital with his supervisor, while the investigating detective went in another car, might create an appearance of impropriety. Maybe nothing untoward happened, maybe they did not work out Wilson's version of events, but it certainly looks like they could have. Sort of like how the story changed from Wilson not knowing about the prior robbery, to now suspecting Brown was the perp...a little too convenient imo. feared for his life after getting punched in the face, despite no bruising? a little too convenient. Wilson claims to have done a lot of thinking during his 15-second encounter with Brown outside the car - just a tad bit too convenient for my tastes. I don't trust Wilson as far as I can throw him. It does not make him guilty, but it does highlight problems with the process and why many people do not trust the police. They look after their own, even in the face of suspicious circumstances.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Because even when we know ### ####ed well that we are breaking the law we do not like to be told that we can't do so. We hate getting caught, and rather than hate ourselves for the stupidity of what we just did we externalize it to the Officer. Our hate for them is our own self loathing, transferred, because we are so childish we cannot be accountable for ourselves.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=chris+rock+on+dealing+with+police&qpvt=chris+rock+on+dealing+with+police&FORM=VDRE#view=detail&mid=4A6F402403EE4A47125F4A6F402403EE4A47125F

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Great idea. I can envision this:Okay, rookies, here is how you don't shoot people. Keep your weapon holstered. Doesn't matter what anyone does; no shooting under any circumstances.

BTW, you'll be the last class that has to learn this. Starting next year, no firearms will be carried. No shooting class will be replaced by no hitting class. Okay, at ease; smoke 'em if you got 'em.

first time you've ever made sense on this board. Congratulations.

 

[Da Guru]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

They are only respected by law abiding people. In my early 20s I had a few run ins with the Detroit police. My dad told me at an early age when you are in a situation with a police officer follow all his commands and keep your hands in plain sight. I have told my kids the same exact thing. We may only deal with the police a few times in our lifes. The police on the street are dealing with idiots all day every day. If a cop does not feel in danger the situation is usually pretty calm.

 

[jon_mx]

Wilson has a history of never shooting his gun on duty before ever.

Brown has a history at least that very same day of stealing, assaulting people and flouting the law.

Who should we believe?

Obviously the guy who did not wash his hands.

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Because even when we know ### ####ed well that we are breaking the law we do not like to be told that we can't do so. We hate getting caught, and rather than hate ourselves for the stupidity of what we just did we externalize it to the Officer. Our hate for them is our own self loathing, transferred, because we are so childish we cannot be accountable for ourselves.

the distrust of the police and justice system extends beyond those who run afoul of the law.

 

[Soonerman]

People here are seriously questioning why proper procedures weren't followed? How old are you people?

It's because government is always a big, stupid, inefficient, expensive blunt instrument.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

You're really complaining now that he washed his hands? Wow. Desperation.

:sigh:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html

1. Wilson washed away blood evidence.

In an interview with police investigators, Wilson admitted that after the shooting he returned to police headquarters and washed blood off his body -- physical evidence that could have helped to prove or disprove a critical piece of Wilsons testimony regarding his struggle with Brown inside the police car. He told his interrogator that he had blood on both of his hands. I think it was his blood, Wilson said referring to Brown. He added that he was not cut anywhere.

I would actually like to hear why this matters. Lets say it was browns blood, what does that prove? Lets say it was Wilson's blood, what does that prove?

what if there was no blood, and Wilson lied about washing it off?

Please explain how it would have mattered if Wilson had zero blood on him.

Means he is a liar. but I think we already knew that, so I suppose it does not add anything new.The actions of Wilson, and the initial investigation do not pass the smell test imo. Too many rules broken. It sounds very much like he and his bosses got time to pull their story together, before he was interviewed by a detective. Even something as simple as whether Wilson knew about the prior robbery, or connected Brown changed as more information became known.

He took two punches to the head, while he was still in the car, and thought he was going to die? Seriously? This is a cop who has been briefed on how to beat these charges.

Officer involved in a shooting should be treated just like any other shooting suspect until cleared.

People cant have it both ways. They cant criticize him for washing blood off of his hands and say that doesnt follow protocol but then also say he didnt have any blood on his hands and he is lying. That is just grasping at straws. This is a stupid issue to pick. It is completely meaningless.

1. If he had blood on his hands, it means nothing whether it is his or Brown's.

2. If he didn't have blood on his hands it means nothing.

3. If he didn't have blood on his hands, he wouldnt lie about having blood on his hands, because it means nothing.

Jesus christ. If you want to pick an investigation angle to get upset about, the lack of measuring the distances is far worse. This one is 100% meaningless in every way. Illustrated perfectly by the fact that nobody could even point out how blood or no blood mattered.

why are you so hung up on the act of washing his hands as the point being made. Its about compromising a crime scene ...its about integrity of evidence...all of it...they didnt even record Wilsons statements after the shooting on the scene when the shooting was fresh in his mind...no notes ...nothing. You want answers ? Ask the cops ....Start there.

Would Wilson have been a suspect at that time? Do suspects have 5th amendment rights? Did Wilson belong to a union and have a union rep and a union lawyer speak to him immediately and if so would that be his Constitutional right and a right negotiated by contract? Do you leave open the possibility that no statements were recorded because none were given?Now I don't know the answers to all of my questions, but unless you do you seem to be marshaling arguments to support a conclusion without giving critical analysis to the arguments.

the officer who took his initial statement testified that he did not keep notes, or record the conversation. Was he in custody, to invoke any rights when giving his statement? When he gave his statement, did he have his union rep, or ask for his union rep? You can understand how this, and traveling to the hospital with his supervisor, while the investigating detective went in another car, might create an appearance of impropriety. Maybe nothing untoward happened, maybe they did not work out Wilson's version of events, but it certainly looks like they could have. Sort of like how the story changed from Wilson not knowing about the prior robbery, to now suspecting Brown was the perp...a little too convenient imo. feared for his life after getting punched in the face, despite no bruising? a little too convenient. Wilson claims to have done a lot of thinking during his 15-second encounter with Brown outside the car - just a tad bit too convenient for my tastes.I don't trust Wilson as far as I can throw him. It does not make him guilty, but it does highlight problems with the process and why many people do not trust the police. They look after their own, even in the face of suspicious circumstances.

In this thread I have taken the position that Officer Wilson's tactics were very poor and subject to criticism. I have noted times were the evidence seems questionable as well. I certainly have suspicions and doubts of the official accounting of the matter. I have been clear, I believe, that had I been advising the Ferguson Police Department that the matter would have been addressed differently from beginning to end.

That said, many of the arguments here are made by folks with little experience in the system, and I hope that my comments might edify them, and any who would read them and begin assuming that the inadvertent misinformation based upon passion and inexperience is true.

 

[whiskey7]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Then they should provide evidence (that does not include individuals who are in the process of doing something illegal and/or have a warrant out for their arrest from something illegal they did previously) to support that claim.

Whose conscious choices led to the intersection of Brown and Wilson that day?

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Because a lot of people want to do whatever they please (which often includes things that have been deemed illegal) and cops catch them doing these things and (in many cases) stop them from doing what they want to do.

Don't get me wrong...there are some bad cops who definitely are crooked as a barrel of snakes. But (in most cases) people who end up on the radar of cops have earned that through doing something they shouldn't be doing. Period.

 

[lod01]

Maybe this has been covered here or somewhere in the GJ documents. Has the family that Wilson was helping before he encountered been asked what he was like when he was there? If he is being painted as this vicious, mindless killer, maybe those people could tell he was agitated.

I believe that is considered totally irrelevant the same way Brown committing a robbery earlier is, just ask Brown's mom.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

Because even when we know ### ####ed well that we are breaking the law we do not like to be told that we can't do so. We hate getting caught, and rather than hate ourselves for the stupidity of what we just did we externalize it to the Officer. Our hate for them is our own self loathing, transferred, because we are so childish we cannot be accountable for ourselves.

the distrust of the police and justice system extends beyond those who run afoul of the law.

I accept that. I believe that would be the exception to the general rule and based upon political or interpersonal empathy with someone who had a beef through an encounter with the police, but I believe you could find exceptions. You, yourself, may even be that exception to what I perceive as a general rule.

 

[Otis]

Proper procedures clearly weren't followed here. If you guys even cared enough to read the chapter in the handbook on how to handle a robbery suspect who assaults you while you're in your marked police car, you'd see that he did this all wrong.

 

[lod01]

Wilson has a history of never shooting his gun on duty before ever.

Brown has a history at least that very same day of stealing, assaulting people and flouting the law.

Who should we believe?

Well I am certain Brown has not lied about the incident, not so sure about Wilson...

That's ok, he has his buddy handling that for him and we know he's a liar.

 

[whiskey7]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

Yes let's put the onus on teaching everyone to avoid the dangerous men in uniform, instead of training the police to not shoot people.Shouldn't police officers be among the most respected members of society? Why is it that they are not?

They are only respected by law abiding people. In my early 20s I had a few run ins with the Detroit police. My dad told me at an early age when you are in a situation with a police officer follow all his commands and keep your hands in plain sight. I have told my kids the same exact thing. We may only deal with the police a few times in our lifes. The police on the street are dealing with idiots all day every day. If a cop does not feel in danger the situation is usually pretty calm.

This

We often hear people complain about their job due to having to deal with ####### people. Cops deal with the worst of the worst every day. Nearly everyone they encounter is doing something illegal. When you take into consideration how many people are out there breaking the law each and every day and how many cops are out there trying to keep up with it all, I think they do a pretty good job all things considered. Again, not saying there are not plenty of bad cops who do horrible things or good cops who make horrible mistakes. Obviously, it happens. But take into consideration what they do and whom they deal with and I think its silly to expect there are not going to be incidents. Cops are people and people have flaws and make mistakes.

 

[lod01]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

 

[lod01]

Blocking highways isn't going to end well for one these idiots pretty soon.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nxP7TQ9hLgU

I'd pay good money on PPV to watch a group of drivers go right through that.

If these morons are all not locked up, there is something seriously wrong. They could have caused accidents.

Apparently they let them all go. Ok the cops in CA are also morons.

California law states it is illegal for any person to be on " … any street … when stopping, standing or parking would obstruct traffic …"

San Diego police Chief Shelley Zimmerman warned those thinking of protesting: "If anyone makes the terrible decision to commit unlawful acts, you should expect to be arrested."

....or not. Probably got confused when the word 'illegal' was referenced.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

exactly. When Nancy ####### Grace says the police version is suspect, you know for certain that the police are just making #### up. She is as pro-police as anyone on this board.

 

[Doug B]

Ferguson: In Defense of Rioting

TIME

The violent protests in Ferguson, Mo., are part of the American experience. Peaceful protesting is a luxury only available to those safely in mainstream culture.


When a police officer shoots a young, unarmed black man in the streets, then does not face indictment, anger in the community is inevitable. It’s what we do with that anger that counts. In such a case, is rioting so wrong?

Riots are a necessary part of the evolution of society. Unfortunately, we do not live in a universal utopia where people have the basic human rights they deserve simply for existing, and until we get there, the legitimate frustration, sorrow and pain of the marginalized voices will boil over, spilling out into our streets. As “normal” citizens watchthe events of Ferguson unfurl on their television screens and Twitter feeds, there is a lot of head shaking, finger pointing, and privileged explanation going on. We wish to seclude the incident and the people involved. To separate it from our history as a nation, to dehumanize the change agents....

(addressing the house, not Olaf)

The only problem with the writer's moral analysis here is that if it gets to the point that it's morally acceptable to violently riot, it's also morally acceptable for the powers that be to react in kind to enforce order. IOW, the rioters lose moral high ground, and are rightfully vulnerable to opposing violence.

Is that really how change must necessarily be fomented in a free society? I don't believe it.

 

[lod01]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

exactly. When Nancy ####### Grace says the police version is suspect, you know for certain that the police are just making #### up. She is as pro-police as anyone on this board.

Nancy Grace is comedy. There is nothing that comes out of that hag's mouth that is at all educational. Every time someone takes her to school, she either turns off their mic or she shouts louder than they do.

 

[Doug B]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Wait -- McGarnicle specified avoidance of "getting killed by a police officer" as opposed to "getting accosted by a police officer".

Still, there are some distubing anecdotes -- the video of the black driver in South Carolina getting shot while reaching into his car for his license being one.

 

[timschochet]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

 

[kentric]

Question for the Wilson supporters: if the feds bring charges and ultimately secure a win at trial, will you accept the verdict?

There is no way the feds win such a trial unless its stacked. If my understanding is correct, the only charges they could bring are race related charges. No way they can win such a trial so they won't even charge him.

 

[The Big Guy]

Not sure why a policeman would ever be concerned about someone while they are sitting in their car. Let us not forget that there are dozens of policemen killed every year as well, so if they are on guard, maybe they have valid reasons.

http://www.nj.com/news/index.ssf/2011/01/lakewood_police_office_chris_m.html

A calm conversation with a pedestrian erupted into a fatal shooting Friday, leaving a Lakewood police officer dead from point-blank gunshots and authorities hot on the heels of a teenage suspect.

Officer Christopher Matlosz, 27, was driving in his police cruiser Friday afternoon when he stopped to talk with a pedestrian, authorities said. After a brief exchange, the assailant stepped back, pulled out a handgun and opened fire. Matlosz was shot three times at close range, still sitting behind the wheel in the driver’s seat, his gun in his holster.

"That’s how quick the whole thing occurred," Ocean County Prosecutor Marlene Lynch Ford said. "Our goal is to identify the perpetrator of this particularly heinous, execution-style murder and bring that person to justice."

Police descended on a nearby townhouse development tonight, and a helicopter’s searchlight darted through the neighborhood. Officers, some in tactical gear, searched the area with rifles drawn. One resident said police were going door-to-door.

"There were about 10 guys in heavy equipment going into the apartments," said Seyi Ogunyinka.

Five law enforcement sources identified Jahmell Crockam, 19, as a person of interest. The sources, while not directly involved in the investigation, confirmed the name was being circulated by police on the scene.

Matlosz, who resided in Manchester in Ocean County, was engaged to be married, officials said. He had been on the force for less than five years, and previously served as a police officer in Englishtown.

"Chris was one of our most popular officers," Lakewood Police Chief Robert Lawson said. "You might say he was the best of us."

The killing sparked sadness and anger from the streets of Ocean County to the Statehouse in Trenton.

Jahmell Crockam, 19, is sought in connection with the shooting death of a Lakewood police officer tonight.
"This is a terrible tragedy, and our hearts and prayers go out to Officer Matlosz’s family, friends, fellow officers, and the entire New Jersey law enforcement community," Gov. Chris Christie said in a statement.

Witnesses described the assailant as a stocky black male about 5 feet, 8 inches tall and in his late teens or early 20s, police said. He was reportedly wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and dark sagging jeans.

"We have someone who obviously has no soul," Ford said. "We do have several significant leads that we’re following through on."

She did not identify the suspect during a news conference tonight in Lakewood. But about an hour after she stepped away from the podium, a text message with a photo and a name had circulated among police throughout the state. The same name was also posted on social media websites.

State Police troopers and officers from surrounding towns reported to the scene of the shooting Friday. Ford said Matlosz was shot on August Drive, near a neighborhood of single-family homes. Police cars with lights flashing were stationed near the intersection of Joe Parker Road and Long Beach Avenue, and union members were bringing coffee and food to officers working overnight.

"I understand there have been some problems there," said Glenn Wilson, pastor at Restoration Family Worship Center in Howell. "Recently there have been a lot of gang issues there."

The prosecutor said police believe the gunman fled on foot through a wooded area. She said they have not recovered the murder weapon, but would not comment on other evidence gathered.

Anthony Wieners, president of the State Policemen’s Benevolent Association, announced a reward for information leading to the arrest and prosecution of the gunman. The reward was more than $40,000 as of tonight, and it is expected to grow.

"Whenever an officer loses his life in the line of duty, it takes a little bit out of all of us," Wieners said. "We’re there to ensure that whoever the suspect is, he’s brought to justice."

Attorney General Paula Dow also issued a statement saying, "Rest assured the suspect responsible for this horrific act will be apprehended and brought to justice."

One week ago, Matlosz switched from the midnight to the evening shift, said Lawson, the Lakewood chief. That put him on the streets Friday afternoon.

"He came out everyday and tried to make an impact, to make Lakewood a better place for the people he cared about," Ray Coles, a Lakewood committeeman. "He was always investigating, questioning and trying to do a good job."

Laura Quinones, 53, of Lakewood said the area has struggled with gangs. She knows Matlosz from his patrols through the neighborhood.

"He was just so easy-going. I feel so bad for the family," she said. "An officer lost his life because of some hood."

Officials said a witness called 911 reporting an officer was shot at 4:07 p.m. Matlosz was taken to Jersey Shore Medical Center in Neptune and was pronounced dead at 4:54 p.m.

Employees at the Lakewood Municipal Complex, which also houses the police department, said Matlosz "was always joking around" with other officers when he came in for his shift around 9 each night.

Francis Decausey, 63, said he knew "something was wrong" when he arrived for work Friday and found dozens of off-duty and retired officers inside the building.

Friday's incident marked the second time in less than two years that a Lakewood police officer has been shot. In September 2009, a suspect opened fire on a group of 11 officers as they executed a no-knock search warrant at a home.

Jaime Gonzalez, wanted on drug and weapons charges, shot officer Jonathan Wilson in the head and Lt. Greg Meyer in the foot. Wilson, 33, survived but lost sight in one eye. Two other officers, Sgt. Louis Sasso and Patrolman Leonard Nieves Sr., were spared serious injury by their bulletproof vests.

Gonzalez is awaiting trial on charges on attempted murder and other counts.

The last time a New Jersey police officer was shot and killed in the line of duty was also in 2009, when a wild shootout inside of a Jersey City apartment complex claimed the life of officer Mark DiNardo. The assailants were also killed.

Last year, 162 officers across the nation were killed in the line of duty, according to the Officer Down Memorial Page, a nonprofit organization that tracks police deaths nationwide. That’s a 27 percent increase over 2009. Shooting deaths increased to 59 from 47.

 

[Jim11]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

Dozens? Could you provide links to just ONE dozen in the past few years?

 

[Doug B]

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

Tim -- I don't think McGarnicle is absolutely correct here, but I think he's about 99.9% correct given the breadth/narowness in which "respectful to LE" can be interpreted.

 

[squistion]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/28/ferguson-black-friday_n_6235890.html

Ferguson Protesters Target Black Friday Sales

(Reuters) - Protesters in Ferguson, Missouri began targeting Black Friday sales at major retailers overnight in a new tactic to vent their anger at a grand jury decision not to indict a white police officer who fatally shot an unarmed black teen.

Kicking off their latest strategy inside a Walmart in another nearby suburb of St. Louis, about 75 demonstrators protested peacefully, chanting "Hands up, don't shoot!", bemusing bargain-hunters pushing their brimming shopping carts.

They dispersed peacefully when ordered by a small group of police, moving on to a Target store where they staged a similar demonstration. More protests were planned for Friday.

 

[timschochet]

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

Tim -- I don't think McGarnicle is absolutely correct here, but I think he's about 99.9% correct given the breadth/narowness in which "respectful to LE" can be interpreted.

First off, I think it's FantasyCurse- is he and McGarnicle the same guy? I wasn't aware of it.

Second, his statement, as a response to protestors, is pretty patronizing. I discussed the divide in this country a few days back in this thread: white people trust police. Blacks don't. That's not true of everyone, but it's a general truth. FantasyCurse and those like him assume that we should all trust the police. They assume that we are all treated equal by the police, and that if we follow the rules, things will be okay. Either FantasyCurse is simply unaware of how blacks are treated differently, or he denies it- either way, he is, IMO, incorrect. I think (actually, based on statistical evidence, I KNOW) that blacks, particularly young black males, are not treated equally by police, and that there is good reason for blacks not to trust the police.

The death of Michael Brown may have been justified. Unfortunately for all sides in this matter, we will never know the answer to this question. I doubt very much that a full blown trial would have helped us learn the answer to this question. It might have informed people better, but as Ditkaless Wonders correctly pointed out, that is not the purpose of a trial. But my larger point is that if the death of Michael Brown was an isolated incident, there would be no protestors. If black relations with police went as smoothly as FantasyCurse thinks they do (you follow the rules, everything is OK), there would be no protests. But in fact its the opposite. This incident is only the latest in a series of incidents that have blacks perceiving, correctly, that they are the subject of different and worse treatment.

And what bugs me the most is that reasonable people seem to want to deny this fact. It's a complicated fact. It is not solely the fault of white policemen that they treat blacks differently. There are lots of factors involved, and some, not all, are the responsibility of black males themselves. But regardless of the reasons, it's a fact nonetheless. And we can't just sweep it under the rug and pretend that it doesn't exist, as so many people here and elsewhere seem to want to do. Because the attempt to do so will ensure that the anger and divide will continue to consume us.

 

[The General]

People seem to latch onto the "unarmed teenager" buzzword and equate that to being innocent. Makes no sense.

But he was a Gentle Giant.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

exactly. When Nancy ####### Grace says the police version is suspect, you know for certain that the police are just making #### up. She is as pro-police as anyone on this board.

The question is not her stance here, but that she is such an idiot her stance on any matter is suspect.

I do not believe any Police Legal Advisor, nor any law enforcement advocacy group other than perhaps Officer Wilson's own Union would say that the Officer's tactics were sound, or that the aftermath was handled in a model fashion, or anything close thereto. Why not take that point as ceded. Take also as ceded that lack of model perfection in the investigation fairly raises questions or suspicions. Other than a general condemnation of law enforcement for poor procedure, how do you get to anything beyond that general suspicion. Most every procedure in this matter that was ignored, or shortcutted would be procedures necessary in establishing a whodoneit. That is not the case here. Me, I would be more interested in you concentrating your arguments on the possibility that his story was at least sandpapered a bit to take off the rough edges, to being downright fabricated. I have suspicions along these lines. I think that indicts the competency of that Department.

What I can not get to, is that the shooting was wrongful. When I discount everything Officer Wilson has to say about this matter and I boil it down to the known facts that a person leaving the scene of a recent crime involving violence is approached by an officer, fights with that officer thereby committing a felony, and then flees any shooting in the immediate aftermath of those facts is going to be more or less justified except a shooting, in the back, of the unarmed man in a kneeling or lying down position.

In the end I tend to believe that these incompetents may have sandpapered the evidence when they did not have to. I believe it turns out they were within the law on the shooting, but that they abused their position and fabricated evidence regardless. There is lesson here on putting trust in police, I believe, but not an example of an unlawful shooting. The shooting was probably unnecessary if good tactics were employed, as I pointed out some 100 pages or so ago, but it just isn't one susceptible to be shown a bad shooting. That effort keeps proving to be going one bridge too far, in my opinion.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

So now to demonstrate the animus you seem to be implying all you would need is evidence that this never happens to white, Hispanic, or Asian youths. You will never get there of course, but even if you did I wonder if the exceptions to the rule you could find would be in any way statistically significant to show any trend, or if the few exceptions from the general rule are just subject to massive attribution error, are blown out of all proportion, are in fact meaningless statistically, but are grasped on to for some sociological or political argument. I suspect we all know the truth here but that some may ignore it to push self serving political agendas.

 

[Doug B]

First off, I think it's FantasyCurse- is he and McGarnicle the same guy? I wasn't aware of it.

Gah. Thanks for pointing this out. I must be confusing their avatars

Either FantasyCurse is simply unaware of how blacks are treated differently, or he denies it- either way, he is, IMO, incorrect. I think (actually, based on statistical evidence, I KNOW) that blacks, particularly young black males, are not treated equally by police, and that there is good reason for blacks not to trust the police.

Understood, but FC's rules were specific to getting killed by police. "Mere" unequal treatment wasn't really at issue in his advisements, I didn't think.

Your other points are taken, but tangential to what I think FC's point was.

 

[timschochet]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

So now to demonstrate the animus you seem to be implying all you would need is evidence that this never happens to white, Hispanic, or Asian youths. You will never get there of course, but even if you did I wonder if the exceptions to the rule you could find would be in any way statistically significant to show any trend, or if the few exceptions from the general rule are just subject to massive attribution error, are blown out of all proportion, are in fact meaningless statistically, but are grasped on to for some sociological or political argument. I suspect we all know the truth here but that some may ignore it to push self serving political agendas.

Obviously we don't all know the truth, because as your response and mine demonstrates, we see different "truths". Why that is, how intelligent people can look at the same set of facts and reach very different conclusions, is a subject in itself worthy of discussion. But I gotta run to watch UCLA football, so we'll have to do this later. Enjoy your Friday!

 

[lod01]

People seem to latch onto the "unarmed teenager" buzzword and equate that to being innocent. Makes no sense.

But he was a Gentle Giant.

It's because they have nothing else to cling to. You mention that he just committed a felony earlier and they totally ignore it. The people supporting this thug are the lowest life forms on the planet.

 

[Doug B]

What I can not get to, is that the shooting was wrongful ... There is lesson here on putting trust in police, I believe, but not an example of an unlawful shooting. The shooting was probably unnecessary if good tactics were employed, as I pointed out some 100 pages or so ago, but it just isn't one susceptible to be shown a bad shooting. That effort keeps proving to be going one bridge too far, in my opinion.

Well put.

 

[ArbyMelt]

This thread has hit a new low when people are posting Nancy Grace videos

 

[Todem]

You're really complaining now that he washed his hands? Wow. Desperation.

:sigh:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html

1. Wilson washed away blood evidence.

In an interview with police investigators, Wilson admitted that after the shooting he returned to police headquarters and washed blood off his body -- physical evidence that could have helped to prove or disprove a critical piece of Wilsons testimony regarding his struggle with Brown inside the police car. He told his interrogator that he had blood on both of his hands. I think it was his blood, Wilson said referring to Brown. He added that he was not cut anywhere.

I would actually like to hear why this matters. Lets say it was browns blood, what does that prove? Lets say it was Wilson's blood, what does that prove?

what if there was no blood, and Wilson lied about washing it off?

Please explain how it would have mattered if Wilson had zero blood on him.

Means he is a liar. but I think we already knew that, so I suppose it does not add anything new.The actions of Wilson, and the initial investigation do not pass the smell test imo. Too many rules broken. It sounds very much like he and his bosses got time to pull their story together, before he was interviewed by a detective. Even something as simple as whether Wilson knew about the prior robbery, or connected Brown changed as more information became known.

He took two punches to the head, while he was still in the car, and thought he was going to die? Seriously? This is a cop who has been briefed on how to beat these charges.

Officer involved in a shooting should be treated just like any other shooting suspect until cleared.

The moment you punch a police officer once in the head you are more than likely asking to get shot.

And here is why you and the other moronic ignorant tools around our country (and in this now stupid thread) are fighting. You think Police Officers are civilians. We grant our law enforcement and military with rights to use deadly force beyond the rights of you and me. You can't seem to grasp this concept. And the facts are clear he had the right to use deadly force as this young man assaulted a police officer, failed to obey direct commands and oh ***k it I don't even need to get into that anymore. There is zero point dealing with peanuts for brain people like yourself.

It's a complete joke that there is this movement to change a police officers right to use deadly force. We might has well take away their guns and tie their hands behind there back. People are talking like they go around looking to kill people. We can;t trust police officers anymore huh? Because there are so many bad officers in this country. It's crazy what is happening with th emir sets of some people.

Get over it. In fact get the ***k out of our country if you can't abide by the laws and procedures we have.

But we have paranoid nut bars like yourself thinking you can just stick your middle finger up to the law and get away with it. You think you can punch a police officer in the head twice and just think nothing is going to happen? Your out of your ****ing skull man. Plain nuts.

Go troll somewhere else.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

exactly. When Nancy ####### Grace says the police version is suspect, you know for certain that the police are just making #### up. She is as pro-police as anyone on this board.

The question is not her stance here, but that she is such an idiot her stance on any matter is suspect.I do not believe any Police Legal Advisor, nor any law enforcement advocacy group other than perhaps Officer Wilson's own Union would say that the Officer's tactics were sound, or that the aftermath was handled in a model fashion, or anything close thereto. Why not take that point as ceded. Take also as ceded that lack of model perfection in the investigation fairly raises questions or suspicions. Other than a general condemnation of law enforcement for poor procedure, how do you get to anything beyond that general suspicion. Most every procedure in this matter that was ignored, or shortcutted would be procedures necessary in establishing a whodoneit. That is not the case here. Me, I would be more interested in you concentrating your arguments on the possibility that his story was at least sandpapered a bit to take off the rough edges, to being downright fabricated. I have suspicions along these lines. I think that indicts the competency of that Department.

What I can not get to, is that the shooting was wrongful. When I discount everything Officer Wilson has to say about this matter and I boil it down to the known facts that a person leaving the scene of a recent crime involving violence is approached by an officer, fights with that officer thereby committing a felony, and then flees any shooting in the immediate aftermath of those facts is going to be more or less justified except a shooting, in the back, of the unarmed man in a kneeling or lying down position.

In the end I tend to believe that these incompetents may have sandpapered the evidence when they did not have to. I believe it turns out they were within the law on the shooting, but that they abused their position and fabricated evidence regardless. There is lesson here on putting trust in police, I believe, but not an example of an unlawful shooting. The shooting was probably unnecessary if good tactics were employed, as I pointed out some 100 pages or so ago, but it just isn't one susceptible to be shown a bad shooting. That effort keeps proving to be going one bridge too far, in my opinion.

this is a great post, and I agree with a lot. I said above when I said I did not trust Wilson that it did not make him guilty. I think the protests run deeper than a single shooting though -at the heart it is about mistrust of the police and justice system. And the way this case has played out has done notinge to assuage those concerns. If anything they highlighted reasons to mistrust.

 

[Guest]

I think what we really need is a list of things you should do to avoid being shot by LE:

1) Obey the law

2) Be respectful to LE

By following this short list, you too can avoid being killed by a police officer, HTH.

The reason that there have been so many protests about this incident is that there is a perception that is widely held among blacks that your statement is not true in regard to them.

Fairly certain they aren't following the above rules if being shot.

Yes I realize you're fairly certain of this, but you're demonstrably wrong. Putting this incident aside, there are dozens of incidents over the past few years alone in which black youths follow your rules and are killed anyhow or otherwise badly mistreated.

Dozens? Could you provide links to just ONE dozen in the past few years?

I don't doubt that there have been dozens. But as a sample within the sea of brazenly bad behavior that plaques our nation, it's an unfortunate rounding error, not an institutional epidemic. That said, legitimate travesties of justice should be condemned and even protested. It's a shame that this issue was obscured by its attachment to this case and it's anti-hero, Michael Brown. He died too young and it is sad and tragically of his own doing.

 

[Todem]

Nancy Grace - something does not add up

Nancy Grace. Man, you just lost all credibility.

exactly. When Nancy ####### Grace says the police version is suspect, you know for certain that the police are just making #### up. She is as pro-police as anyone on this board.

The question is not her stance here, but that she is such an idiot her stance on any matter is suspect.I do not believe any Police Legal Advisor, nor any law enforcement advocacy group other than perhaps Officer Wilson's own Union would say that the Officer's tactics were sound, or that the aftermath was handled in a model fashion, or anything close thereto. Why not take that point as ceded. Take also as ceded that lack of model perfection in the investigation fairly raises questions or suspicions. Other than a general condemnation of law enforcement for poor procedure, how do you get to anything beyond that general suspicion. Most every procedure in this matter that was ignored, or shortcutted would be procedures necessary in establishing a whodoneit. That is not the case here. Me, I would be more interested in you concentrating your arguments on the possibility that his story was at least sandpapered a bit to take off the rough edges, to being downright fabricated. I have suspicions along these lines. I think that indicts the competency of that Department.

What I can not get to, is that the shooting was wrongful. When I discount everything Officer Wilson has to say about this matter and I boil it down to the known facts that a person leaving the scene of a recent crime involving violence is approached by an officer, fights with that officer thereby committing a felony, and then flees any shooting in the immediate aftermath of those facts is going to be more or less justified except a shooting, in the back, of the unarmed man in a kneeling or lying down position.

In the end I tend to believe that these incompetents may have sandpapered the evidence when they did not have to. I believe it turns out they were within the law on the shooting, but that they abused their position and fabricated evidence regardless. There is lesson here on putting trust in police, I believe, but not an example of an unlawful shooting. The shooting was probably unnecessary if good tactics were employed, as I pointed out some 100 pages or so ago, but it just isn't one susceptible to be shown a bad shooting. That effort keeps proving to be going one bridge too far, in my opinion.

this is a great post, and I agree with a lot. I said above when I said I did not trust Wilson that it did not make him guilty. I think the protests run deeper than a single shooting though -at the heart it is about mistrust of the police and justice system. And the way this case has played out has done notinge to assuage those concerns. If anything they highlighted reasons to mistrust.

Your always going to have a segment of our society that believes this.

Typically it's criminals.

Are there bad cops? No doubt. Are there shady things that go on? No doubt.

Wrong case to prove that point.

 

[gianmarco]

I just don't understand why all the protesters are blocking traffic everywhere.

 

[parasaurolophus]

People seem to latch onto the "unarmed teenager" buzzword and equate that to being innocent. Makes no sense.

But he was a Gentle Giant.

This angle of these stories is what gets me the most. "He was a good kid" is the first thing you hear.

I read an article yesterday about a father that shot his 18 month old in the chest and killed him with a BB gun. He pulled the trigger on purpose trying to scare his son. His excuse was he thought the gun wasn't loaded. One of the first things this dbag's cousin says?

"They were deeply in love. He's torn. He's broken by this. Jesse is really a good father."

http://www.cbs46.com/story/23299569/1-year-old-child-shot-with-bb-gun-dies

That is the only quote in the article.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You're really complaining now that he washed his hands? Wow. Desperation.

:sigh:http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/11/25/ferguson-grand-jury-evidence-mistakes_n_6220814.html

1. Wilson washed away blood evidence.

In an interview with police investigators, Wilson admitted that after the shooting he returned to police headquarters and washed blood off his body -- physical evidence that could have helped to prove or disprove a critical piece of Wilsons testimony regarding his struggle with Brown inside the police car. He told his interrogator that he had blood on both of his hands. I think it was his blood, Wilson said referring to Brown. He added that he was not cut anywhere.

I would actually like to hear why this matters. Lets say it was browns blood, what does that prove? Lets say it was Wilson's blood, what does that prove?

what if there was no blood, and Wilson lied about washing it off?

Please explain how it would have mattered if Wilson had zero blood on him.

Plot twist: Wilson never shot Brown at all. It was the one-armed man all along.

 

[Chemical X]

i used to donate my time at food shelters/banks in my area on tday. sometimes xmas. 99% imo of the patrons have been black. this year we decided not to donate our time. hands down, don't serve is my new motto.

 

[Todem]

i used to donate my time at food shelters/banks in my area on tday. sometimes xmas. 99% imo of the patrons have been black. this year we decided not to donate our time. hands down, don't serve is my new motto.

Those Ferguson protests just warms the heart during the holidays, makes you really feel for them, huh?I feel for the business owners. Donate to those hard working Americans who understand what it takes.

 

[jplvr]

I just don't understand why all the protesters are blocking traffic everywhere.

They are so used to blocking the left lane of traffic, I doubt they see anything wrong with blocking an intersection.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

The problem is if the police lie about one thing during an investigation people will not believe anything they say about the rest of the investigation. Just be truthful...do your job honestly and people will trust you(not all but most ).i

I have a lot of cop friends and when i see them on a face book post talking about shootings like this one they say things like the world is better off without people like Mike Brown.That makes my red flags go flying up....if thats the view they have then no wonder they are so fast to shoot and ask questions later. They really do view it as a war between us and them.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

I just don't understand why all the protesters are blocking traffic everywhere.

They are so used to blocking the left lane of traffic, I doubt they see anything wrong with blocking an intersection.

disruption attracts attention