Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (4 Viewers)

[parasaurolophus]

Anybody know how long the grand jury took for the boston marathon bombings or other famous cases? I mean it seems like these ham sandwiches should just be spit out in a matter of hours, right? Was Tony Stewart a ham sandwich?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Al Sharpton meeting yet again today at the White House for some reason.

this is an embarrassment for President Obama, and for the White House. It is repugnant to me that this man is meeting with the POTUS.

Agreed. I like Obama and I get that this would be an issue with any Democrat, but this is still disgraceful.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Why Justice Scalia hates what prosecutor McCulloch did in the grand jury.

There is a whole lot of ignorance about grand juries in here. That grand jury did not "prove" anything or "hear" "all" of the "evidence". What happened was a prosecutor gave outdated unconstitutional law to a grand jury, presented one side of a case unopposed, attacked the credibility of witnesses he wanted to discredit, and then convinced the grand jury not to indict Wilson. The only thing that means or establishes is that Wilson wont face state criminal charges.

That doesnt mean Wilson is a murderer or committed a crime, but it also doesnt mean that he is not a murderer or did not commit a crime. It only means he wont face a state criminal trial. Which anyone paying any kind of attention to who prosecutor McCulloch is knew already.

The headline is a somewhat misleading because what Scalia said was taken from a 1992 case discussing grand juries in general and was not a recent commentary on the Wilson grand jury proceeding. However, one would hope that if he is consistent he would feel the same way today, but who knows.

Actually what Scalia was speaking to was nothing like the issue in the Ferguson matter. Justice Scalia was noting that targets of the grand jury cannot demand a say therein, nor that exculpatory information must be presented on their behalf. He was preserving to the Prosecution the province of what is, and what is not, appropriate to present. He was removing the desires, thoughts, and wants of the target from the equation entirely. He was noting that targets of the grand jury had no say in front of that grand jury at their own insistence. I would posit that Justice Scalia never considered the possibility that happened in Ferguson in the referenced ruling as it would have been too fanciful and unlikely to even consider. I mean imagine, a Prosecutor not attempting to indict through the grand jury, but to get a no true bill issued instead.

 

[Riversco]

anybody post Charles Barkley yet

You don't post up next to Barkley unless you want a mouthful of elbow as he grabs the rebound.

 

[Jim11]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Here Tim, now you can feel even.

Pack of teens beats man to death near Ferguson

I wonder how many feet he was away from his car, what direction he was moving and how fast?

Do you think Obama and his friend Al will show their outrage?

 

[timschochet]

BK...what a cluster#### of witness testimony that is. Which again brings me back to what I have been saying. There is a relevancy to the order of shots and where/how they hit the body regardless of whether or not Tim wants to admit such.

lol. This has got to be shtick at this point.

I never argued that it wasn't relevant. I simply wrote that personally I don't understand HOW it is relevant. That is NOT AN ARGUMENT. It means that I am clueless in this area, and not afraid to admit it. I was hoping that you could explain it to me. You have refused to do so.

Obviously you believe that the order and location of shots serve to corroborate Wilson's story of what happened. I am perfectly willing to entertain that argument, but I can't argue with you or agree with you because I don't understand how. Please explain it to me, and then, provided I understand what you're talking about, I will offer my thoughts. tia

 

[timschochet]

Here Tim, now you can feel even.

Pack of teens beats man to death near Ferguson

I wonder how many feet he was away from his car, what direction he was moving and how fast?

Do you think Obama and his friend Al will show their outrage?

Really?

I mean, even from you, really?

 

[Jim11]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

 

[timschochet]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

 

[tdoss]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

 

[tdoss]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

 

[Jim11]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

Hammer video...not that you can see much.

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/12/01/Eyewitness-Before-St-Louis-Hammer-Attack-Black-People-Ran-Up-And-Down-The-Street-Yelling-Eff-the-white-people-kill-the-white-people?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

At the 45-second mark, she said, “And, of course, it’s a white kid, right after black people running up and down the street saying, ‘Eff the white people, kill the white people.’ This is what we have.”

 

[timschochet]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

Other than your use of the phrase "pimp strolling", which was unfortunate, these are not unreasonable questions. However, you fail to offer specific answers. (Not that I know the answers to this either.) Instead you simply assume that it was more than a few feet.

If anybody can tell from what was released by the prosecutor the exact answers to these questions, please post it here.

 

[timschochet]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

Hammer video...not that you can see much.

http://www.breitbart.com/InstaBlog/2014/12/01/Eyewitness-Before-St-Louis-Hammer-Attack-Black-People-Ran-Up-And-Down-The-Street-Yelling-Eff-the-white-people-kill-the-white-people?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

At the 45-second mark, she said, “And, of course, it’s a white kid, right after black people running up and down the street saying, ‘Eff the white people, kill the white people.’ This is what we have.”

How is this related to his question?

 

[timschochet]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

I'm sure they have. What's your point?

 

[Courtjester]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

I'm sure they have. What's your point?

I think the point is instead of commenting on the numbers and facts, you chose to make your comments on the person reading the facts.

 

[rick6668]

Descriptions of Brown’s movements

CHARGING

​

“like he was going to run right through me”

“When he charged once more”

“started charging towards the officer”

“I thought he was trying to charge him”

WALKING BACK

​

“it wasn't fast enough to be a charge”

“casually walking ”

“he picked up a little bit of speed”

“taking two small steps ”

TURNED AROUND

​

“turn around facing the officer”

“he was turned around”

“I saw him turn to his right”

“turned around”

“I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer”

“He turned around”

FALLING

​

“Michael Brown was on his knees”

“he was just catching his balance”

SURRENDER

​

“kept saying, I got, my hands is up”

“he was walking in a demeanor as I give up”

“okay, okay, okay, hands up”

“he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped”

“Mike Brown with his arms up”

“he was giving up”

“he was not close at all to him”
Read the complete statements:


“Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 5, page 229

Officer Darren Wilson

​

“Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that's when Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with this driveway.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6 , page 167

Witness walking to his vehicle parked nearby.

​

“Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't so he started shooting him.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 18, page 27

Witness sitting in van with her family.

​

“I thought he was trying to charge him at first because the only thing I kept saying was is he crazy? Why don't he just stop instead of running because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first thing I would think is to drop down on the ground and not try to look like I'm going to attack 'em, but that was my opinion. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 181

Witness was driving through the complex in a van with her family.

​

“I didn't get the impression of a charge because it wasn't fast enough to be a charge.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 44

Witness traveling through the complex in van with his family.

​

“He was casually walking as if he had got shot and he started feeling the pain or something like that, where like he couldn't you know, pick up his pace because of the shot. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 151

Witness was on patio of her apartment.

​

“Um, I guess it was like he stopped and he turned around like this, and then he started moving towards the officer and kind of looked like he picked up a little bit of speed, and then he started going down.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 23, page 137

Witness was sitting in van with her family.

​

“Yeah, I remember him like taking two small steps like he was stumbling and like I said, the officer lets out some more shots and that's when he hit the ground.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 21

Witness in second-floor apartment, looking out window and then on balcony

​

“And that's when I proceeded to look out my rear view mirror, he was running, shorts was fired, I saw Mike Brown turn around facing the officer at this time. Hands was up probably about like this, they weren't all the way up, but they was probably just like this. And that's when I looked at the review mirror, heard about two or three more gunshots, Michael Brown fell to the ground. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 120

Witness was stopped in her Monte Carlo along Canfield.

​

“And then whenever the officer is walking up on him shooting, he was turned around with his hands up and he just went all the way down as the shots hit him. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 102

Witness sitting in a car parked in the complex.

​

“I saw him turn to his right, turned around, but as he was turning, I'm sorry, he was like this. What I was saying was that I didn't see like a big all the way up there kind of thing, I just saw a turned around kind of right here.”

Q: “Kind of shoulder high, hands up?”

A: “Yes.”

Q: “But his palms were like facing the officer?”

A: “Yes.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 22

Witness looking out window of her apartment.

​

“Whenever he stopped and turned around at, that's where he fell dead at. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6, page 252

Witness standing in the grass about 20 feet away from the shooting.

​

“...I was still in shock and now I'm just watching the officer, you know, pace towards Big Mike. I See him fire the second shot, I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer. ”

Page 257-

Q: And then he runs and the officer chases him while firing his weapon?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Can you give me an idea of how many times the officer fires his weapon while he is chasing him?

A: No I can't, I don't know exactly, it is about five or six times.

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 4, page 121

Dorian Johnson, crouching along stopped vehicles on Canfield.

​

“I mean, he turned around, and I'm assuming that he was just stunned, that's how it appeared to me. That he looked down at his hands and he saw blood. He turned around and he just started walking back towards the officer. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 10, page 41

Page 53-

A: I want to say it is almost as if you tell somebody to come here, and they're coming, but they just keep walking, he just kept going, he just didn't stop.

Witness on exterior stairs of apartment complex.

​

“And so by the time I made it to where I could see what was going on, Michael Brown was on his knees.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 12

Page 32-

Q: So you admitted on the recording that you lied initially?

A: Right, although I wasn't, but that's what they wanted to hear, so I just gave then what they wanted to hear.

...

Q: But you mentioned that you take pills.

A: Yes.

Q: Is it for a mental health condition?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know what your diagnosis is?

A: They say I have mood swings, three personalities.
Witness standing in a parking lot along Canfield Drive.
“Q: So when the officer, when Michael Brown turned around and was staggering as you said, moving toward the officer, did it appear to you that he was charging the officer?”

A: “No, it appears to me that he was just catching his balance. That's when I thought, where I assumed again that he had been hit with the second shot, which I don't know.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 240

Page 185 (same witness)

Q: And then what happens?

A: And then he throws up his arms and starts yelling okay. And within a couple of seconds the three officers came up and the one just pulled up and shot him.

Page 189

Q: So describe what you saw when you say you saw three police officers.

A: Yeah, there was one in the front with his gun out pointed down at the ground and then two more were just coming in behind. They didn't have their guns drawn.

Q: Okay, were these uniformed officers?

A: Yes.

Q: All three of them?

A: Yes.
Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex.
“And the police just kept firing and saying something to the boy, and kept firing. The boy kept saying, I got, my hands is up, I don't have anything, what do you want. And next thing I know, I don't know where it hit, but when the boy fell, there was blood shot everywhere. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 212

Page 212- (Right after this statement)

A: ...And the police just stand over him and shot him like he was playing darts at a board.

Witness was stopped in her vehicle on Canfield.

​

“I guess he was walking in a demeanor as I give up. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 98

Page 88-

A: So when he walked out in the middle of the street with his hands up to his sides, that's when, you know, he took a couple steps and the officer fired. And me and my wife are like, why is he walking. And he took a couple more steps, and the cop, the officer fired like four more shots and that's when he fell.

Witness standing on porch outside of second floor apartment

​

“Mike Brown started walking back at him okay, okay, okay, hands up and he just started shooting at him”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 13, page 219

Page 221 -

Q: ..could you tell how far Mike Brown and the officer was when you saw him shoot six or seven times?

A. I'd say less than 15 feet.

...

A. And the officer was backing up as he was firing.

...

Q: Did he appear to be coming toward the officer in an aggressive way?

A: I mean that's subjective.

Q: I'm talking about your opinion.

A: See, I kind of have a mixed opinion on it.

Q: OK

A: I take the hands going down and moving quicker towards the cop as either I'm falling to my death or okay, you've already shot me a couple of times, I'm coming at you.

Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex.

​

“He just turned around like, you know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped, like looking at him. And then, um, that's when I heard the rest of the shots. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 25

Page 32 -

Q: Did you think this was police brutality?

A: Honestly, to me it looked like murder. I've seen the Ferguson Police do some really awful things. I've personally myself filed cases against them for coming into my house and basically beating me up.

Page 68-

Q: On August 16th you never mention that his body was inside the vehicle, but on September 25th you mention that his body was inside. You just said that it was his arm, it looked like they were fighting.

Page 74-

Q: And she said if I told you we had evidence that he moved forward toward the police officer, what would you say about that. You said that might have been one of the times I was looking away.

A: Yeah

...

Q: I just want to make sure just because you are saying you didn't see it, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen.

A: Right, right, that's the point I tried to make.

Witness walking along sidewalk on Canfield.

​

“Q: So when you saw Mike Brown with his arms up coming towards the officer, he did not appear to be rushing the officer to you?”

A: “Not at all, not at all.”

Q: “Did he appear to be charging the officer?”

A: “Not at all, not at all.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 60

Page 63 -

A: He was still standing.

Q: Standing and walking towards the officer

A: Yes

Page 70-

Q: OK, when you initially talked to the FBI, and we've listened to your statements, or Kathi Alizadeh and I have, there is information in there that the officer was standing over him while he laid on the ground and finished him off.

A: You know, I said that out of an assumption based on me being from where I'm from and that can be the only assumption I can have.

...

Q: Well you told them that you saw the officer stand over Michael Brown and empty his clip into his body and finish him off, didn't you say that?

A: Well, you know, I did say that, but it was based on an assumption.

...

Q: You told them you saw Michael Brown get shot in the back and that's not true is it?

A: That's not true based on the truth of the autopsy coming out.

...

Q: And you told them that you saw the officer within an arm's length of Michael Brown shoot him in the head and you didn't see that did you?

A: Based on an assumption.
Witness was on apartment porch.
“When he left from here and he was walking toward him, I believehe was giving up. ...Because his hands was up, he was walking toward him. Where was he going to go. The officer was standing there with a gun dead aimed on him. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 8, page 148

Page 149 - The Officer moved back 3 steps as Michael was walking toward him or staggering toward him, he took three steps back and was still yelling. I clearly heard him tel Mike stop, stop, stop. (Distance later said 15-20 feet)

Witness standing on porch of her apartment.

​

“Q: When he turned around and raised his hands up shoulder length, did he charge at the officer?”

A: “No, no.”

Q: “Did he move in a threatening way towards the officer?”

A: “Not that I could see, no.”

Q: “As if he was coming to do him harm?”

A: “No, the officer wasn't that close, he was not close at all to him.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 167
A couple of lines down he confirmed:

15 to 20 feet away.

Started from the bottom. Will try and get to some more later.

 

[timschochet]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

I'm sure they have. What's your point?

I think the point is instead of commenting on the numbers and facts, you chose to make your comments on the person reading the facts.

Then he should have made that point. YOU made that point, and it's a fair charge, so I'll respond to you.

Actually I didn't comment on O'Reilly specifically except to explain his POV. As for the facts, he cherry picked them. I could cherry pick facts for myself as well: for example, this report: "Black Brown and Targeted" from the ACLU demonstrates how the police in Boston unfairly targeted minorities during the years 2007-10 out of all proportion of either their population numbers or the amount of crime they committed: http://www.aclum.org/stopandfrisk

But I admit that report by the ACLU doesn't tell the whole story. Neither do O'Reilly's statistics. That's why it's called cherry picking.

 

[Henry Ford]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

So... There are about five times as many whites, but only 2.7 or so as many whites shot to death by the police? I'm only a law talking guy, but doesn't that mean there are about twice as many blacks shot to death by police as whites per capita?

 

[squistion]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

 

[Henry Ford]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

 

[timschochet]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

It's certainly not impossible. But it continues to amaze me that some people just accept such an unlikely scenario without any questions whatsoever.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

Don't do anything to make yourself uncomfortable. This discussion is not worth any professional worry, no matter how slight. Maybe someday you will have a layover at DIA and we can share a drink and some BS one on one. I'd be honored to buy the first round.

 

[tdoss]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

O'Reilly is one of those people like yourself who want to deny that young black men is this country face any kind of different treatment by white police officers, and that everything bad that happens to them is their own fault. I don't think this is true at all. Thankfully, outside of the far right wing, it's not a popular viewpoint.

Do black officers not shoot black men?

I'm sure they have. What's your point?

Seems you had the point...you made the distinction of saying "white officers" and "black men".

As if to infer that black officers somehow treat black men differently than white officers. I'd like to check the validity of that inference...

 

[tdoss]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I absolutely agree...but it at least gives us some sort of starting point...he traveled "at least this far" while taking bullets.

Is it reasonable to say he covered that distance while calmly walking, hands up and being all compliant?

 

[Gachi]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

 

[tdoss]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

That's a reasonable response and one that I could be talked into accepting...but I wonder what is the alternative? Guy is coming at you...he's a big dude who has already punched you in the face. He's not accepting the orders the officer is giving. What alternatives to shooting does this officer have? Did he have a taser? Should he retreat and do circles around the car hoping the guy doesn't catch him? I'm honestly not sure here.

I don't think "non lethal" shots are acceptable...this guy is coming...you've pumped some shots into him...he's still coming.

 

[Zegras11]

Descriptions of Brown’s movements

CHARGING

​

“like he was going to run right through me”

“When he charged once more”

“started charging towards the officer”

“I thought he was trying to charge him”

WALKING BACK

​

“it wasn't fast enough to be a charge”

“casually walking ”

“he picked up a little bit of speed”

“taking two small steps ”

TURNED AROUND

​

“turn around facing the officer”

“he was turned around”

“I saw him turn to his right”

“turned around”

“I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer”

“He turned around”

FALLING

​

“Michael Brown was on his knees”

“he was just catching his balance”

SURRENDER

​

“kept saying, I got, my hands is up”

“he was walking in a demeanor as I give up”

“okay, okay, okay, hands up”

“he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped”

“Mike Brown with his arms up”

“he was giving up”

“he was not close at all to him”
Read the complete statements:


“Just coming straight at me like he was going to run right through me.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 5, page 229

Officer Darren Wilson

​

“Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that's when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that's when Mike Brown finally collapsed right about even with this driveway.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6 , page 167

Witness walking to his vehicle parked nearby.

​

“Then Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He didn't so he started shooting him.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 18, page 27

Witness sitting in van with her family.

​

“I thought he was trying to charge him at first because the only thing I kept saying was is he crazy? Why don't he just stop instead of running because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first thing I would think is to drop down on the ground and not try to look like I'm going to attack 'em, but that was my opinion. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 181

Witness was driving through the complex in a van with her family.

​

“I didn't get the impression of a charge because it wasn't fast enough to be a charge.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 44

Witness traveling through the complex in van with his family.

​

“He was casually walking as if he had got shot and he started feeling the pain or something like that, where like he couldn't you know, pick up his pace because of the shot. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 11, page 151

Witness was on patio of her apartment.

​

“Um, I guess it was like he stopped and he turned around like this, and then he started moving towards the officer and kind of looked like he picked up a little bit of speed, and then he started going down.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 23, page 137

Witness was sitting in van with her family.

​

“Yeah, I remember him like taking two small steps like he was stumbling and like I said, the officer lets out some more shots and that's when he hit the ground.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 21

Witness in second-floor apartment, looking out window and then on balcony

​

“And that's when I proceeded to look out my rear view mirror, he was running, shorts was fired, I saw Mike Brown turn around facing the officer at this time. Hands was up probably about like this, they weren't all the way up, but they was probably just like this. And that's when I looked at the review mirror, heard about two or three more gunshots, Michael Brown fell to the ground. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 120

Witness was stopped in her Monte Carlo along Canfield.

​

“And then whenever the officer is walking up on him shooting, he was turned around with his hands up and he just went all the way down as the shots hit him. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 102

Witness sitting in a car parked in the complex.

​

“I saw him turn to his right, turned around, but as he was turning, I'm sorry, he was like this. What I was saying was that I didn't see like a big all the way up there kind of thing, I just saw a turned around kind of right here.”

Q: “Kind of shoulder high, hands up?”

A: “Yes.”

Q: “But his palms were like facing the officer?”

A: “Yes.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 22

Witness looking out window of her apartment.

​

“Whenever he stopped and turned around at, that's where he fell dead at. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 6, page 252

Witness standing in the grass about 20 feet away from the shooting.

​

“...I was still in shock and now I'm just watching the officer, you know, pace towards Big Mike. I See him fire the second shot, I see Big Mike turn around and face the officer. ”

Page 257-

Q: And then he runs and the officer chases him while firing his weapon?

A: Uh-huh.

Q: Can you give me an idea of how many times the officer fires his weapon while he is chasing him?

A: No I can't, I don't know exactly, it is about five or six times.

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 4, page 121

Dorian Johnson, crouching along stopped vehicles on Canfield.

​

“I mean, he turned around, and I'm assuming that he was just stunned, that's how it appeared to me. That he looked down at his hands and he saw blood. He turned around and he just started walking back towards the officer. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 10, page 41

Page 53-

A: I want to say it is almost as if you tell somebody to come here, and they're coming, but they just keep walking, he just kept going, he just didn't stop.

Witness on exterior stairs of apartment complex.

​

“And so by the time I made it to where I could see what was going on, Michael Brown was on his knees.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 12

Page 32-

Q: So you admitted on the recording that you lied initially?

A: Right, although I wasn't, but that's what they wanted to hear, so I just gave then what they wanted to hear.

...

Q: But you mentioned that you take pills.

A: Yes.

Q: Is it for a mental health condition?

A: Yes.

Q: Do you know what your diagnosis is?

A: They say I have mood swings, three personalities.
Witness standing in a parking lot along Canfield Drive.
“Q: So when the officer, when Michael Brown turned around and was staggering as you said, moving toward the officer, did it appear to you that he was charging the officer?”

A: “No, it appears to me that he was just catching his balance. That's when I thought, where I assumed again that he had been hit with the second shot, which I don't know.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 12, page 240

Page 185 (same witness)

Q: And then what happens?

A: And then he throws up his arms and starts yelling okay. And within a couple of seconds the three officers came up and the one just pulled up and shot him.

Page 189

Q: So describe what you saw when you say you saw three police officers.

A: Yeah, there was one in the front with his gun out pointed down at the ground and then two more were just coming in behind. They didn't have their guns drawn.

Q: Okay, were these uniformed officers?

A: Yes.

Q: All three of them?

A: Yes.
Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex.
“And the police just kept firing and saying something to the boy, and kept firing. The boy kept saying, I got, my hands is up, I don't have anything, what do you want. And next thing I know, I don't know where it hit, but when the boy fell, there was blood shot everywhere. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 212

Page 212- (Right after this statement)

A: ...And the police just stand over him and shot him like he was playing darts at a board.

Witness was stopped in her vehicle on Canfield.

​

“I guess he was walking in a demeanor as I give up. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 9, page 98

Page 88-

A: So when he walked out in the middle of the street with his hands up to his sides, that's when, you know, he took a couple steps and the officer fired. And me and my wife are like, why is he walking. And he took a couple more steps, and the cop, the officer fired like four more shots and that's when he fell.

Witness standing on porch outside of second floor apartment

​

“Mike Brown started walking back at him okay, okay, okay, hands up and he just started shooting at him”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 13, page 219

Page 221 -

Q: ..could you tell how far Mike Brown and the officer was when you saw him shoot six or seven times?

A. I'd say less than 15 feet.

...

A. And the officer was backing up as he was firing.

...

Q: Did he appear to be coming toward the officer in an aggressive way?

A: I mean that's subjective.

Q: I'm talking about your opinion.

A: See, I kind of have a mixed opinion on it.

Q: OK

A: I take the hands going down and moving quicker towards the cop as either I'm falling to my death or okay, you've already shot me a couple of times, I'm coming at you.

Witness was doing maintenance work at the complex.

​

“He just turned around like, you know, he put his arms about shoulder length and just stopped, like looking at him. And then, um, that's when I heard the rest of the shots. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 17, page 25

Page 32 -

Q: Did you think this was police brutality?

A: Honestly, to me it looked like murder. I've seen the Ferguson Police do some really awful things. I've personally myself filed cases against them for coming into my house and basically beating me up.

Page 68-

Q: On August 16th you never mention that his body was inside the vehicle, but on September 25th you mention that his body was inside. You just said that it was his arm, it looked like they were fighting.

Page 74-

Q: And she said if I told you we had evidence that he moved forward toward the police officer, what would you say about that. You said that might have been one of the times I was looking away.

A: Yeah

...

Q: I just want to make sure just because you are saying you didn't see it, doesn't necessarily mean it didn't happen.

A: Right, right, that's the point I tried to make.

Witness walking along sidewalk on Canfield.

​

“Q: So when you saw Mike Brown with his arms up coming towards the officer, he did not appear to be rushing the officer to you?”

A: “Not at all, not at all.”

Q: “Did he appear to be charging the officer?”

A: “Not at all, not at all.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 16, page 60

Page 63 -

A: He was still standing.

Q: Standing and walking towards the officer

A: Yes

Page 70-

Q: OK, when you initially talked to the FBI, and we've listened to your statements, or Kathi Alizadeh and I have, there is information in there that the officer was standing over him while he laid on the ground and finished him off.

A: You know, I said that out of an assumption based on me being from where I'm from and that can be the only assumption I can have.

...

Q: Well you told them that you saw the officer stand over Michael Brown and empty his clip into his body and finish him off, didn't you say that?

A: Well, you know, I did say that, but it was based on an assumption.

...

Q: You told them you saw Michael Brown get shot in the back and that's not true is it?

A: That's not true based on the truth of the autopsy coming out.

...

Q: And you told them that you saw the officer within an arm's length of Michael Brown shoot him in the head and you didn't see that did you?

A: Based on an assumption.
Witness was on apartment porch.
“When he left from here and he was walking toward him, I believehe was giving up. ...Because his hands was up, he was walking toward him. Where was he going to go. The officer was standing there with a gun dead aimed on him. ”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 8, page 148

Page 149 - The Officer moved back 3 steps as Michael was walking toward him or staggering toward him, he took three steps back and was still yelling. I clearly heard him tel Mike stop, stop, stop. (Distance later said 15-20 feet)

Witness standing on porch of her apartment.

​

“Q: When he turned around and raised his hands up shoulder length, did he charge at the officer?”

A: “No, no.”

Q: “Did he move in a threatening way towards the officer?”

A: “Not that I could see, no.”

Q: “As if he was coming to do him harm?”

A: “No, the officer wasn't that close, he was not close at all to him.”

Read original – Grand Jury Volume 7, page 167
A couple of lines down he confirmed:

15 to 20 feet away.

Started from the bottom. Will try and get to some more later.

Thanks for doing this.

I would have if I had the time. When they made the announcement they said many witnesses had changed their stories.

15 feet away is six steps.

 

[tdoss]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

And if a disproportionate amount of crimes are being perpetrated by black males...what are you supposed to do? Not lock them up because it'll look like there's some racial bias?

Not that there isn't some bias...I'm sure there is...but damn. How do you get past some of those numbers above?

13% of the population is murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

And I'm sure those numbers continue to skew for other violent crimes across the board...not just murders.

 

[SoBeDad]

O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.

So... There are about five times as many whites, but only 2.7 or so as many whites shot to death by the police? I'm only a law talking guy, but doesn't that mean there are about twice as many blacks shot to death by police as whites per capita?

Yes, but blacks are more often in situations leading to being shot by the police.

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

Are you seriously making the argument that Sharpton isn't a race baiter or did I misread you?

 

[Henry Ford]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

Don't do anything to make yourself uncomfortable. This discussion is not worth any professional worry, no matter how slight. Maybe someday you will have a layover at DIA and we can share a drink and some BS one on one. I'd be honored to buy the first round.

I say we drink and dash.

 

[squistion]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

Are you seriously making the argument that Sharpton isn't a race baiter or did I misread you?

I don't consider him one. And a majority of the black community would agree with me. If you feel otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

 

[Henry Ford]

How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...

I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.

I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.

That's a reasonable response and one that I could be talked into accepting...but I wonder what is the alternative? Guy is coming at you...he's a big dude who has already punched you in the face. He's not accepting the orders the officer is giving. What alternatives to shooting does this officer have? Did he have a taser? Should he retreat and do circles around the car hoping the guy doesn't catch him? I'm honestly not sure here.I don't think "non lethal" shots are acceptable...this guy is coming...you've pumped some shots into him...he's still coming.

The problem is that the standard for use of force is a subjective one, and it should be. It's never going to be universally accepted. And that subjective standard is abused at times, whether on purpose before use of force or after the use of force when the officers close ranks.Unfortunately, at that point if the officers, the department, or the prosecutors start acting in any way other than above board it erodes confidence in the entire process. And it should. It's dirty pool.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.

 

[Gachi]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

And if a disproportionate amount of crimes are being perpetrated by black males...what are you supposed to do? Not lock them up because it'll look like there's some racial bias?

Not that there isn't some bias...I'm sure there is...but damn. How do you get past some of those numbers above?

13% of the population is murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

And I'm sure those numbers continue to skew for other violent crimes across the board...not just murders.

That's exactly my point. 13 percent of the population is NOT murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

There's roughly 45 million African-Americans (non-immigrant blacks) living in the U.S. today. They all aren't "thugs." Despite years of systematic discrimination and disenfranchisement a lot of black people are gainfully employed and live normal lives.

And if you want to play the numbers game a whole helluva a lot more white people deal and do drugs than black. Yet blacks are arrested more for drug related charges. I wonder why that is?

 

[timschochet]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

And if a disproportionate amount of crimes are being perpetrated by black males...what are you supposed to do? Not lock them up because it'll look like there's some racial bias?

Not that there isn't some bias...I'm sure there is...but damn. How do you get past some of those numbers above?

13% of the population is murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

And I'm sure those numbers continue to skew for other violent crimes across the board...not just murders.

That's exactly my point. 13 percent of the population is NOT murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

There's roughly 45 million African-Americans (non-immigrant blacks) living in the U.S. today. They all aren't "thugs." Despite years of systematic discrimination and disenfranchisement a lot of black people are gainfully employed and live normal lives.

And if you want to play the numbers game a whole helluva a lot more white people deal and do drugs than black. Yet blacks are arrested more for drug related charges. I wonder why that is?

Not just that, but according to the ACLU the sentencing for blacks with regard to drug charges is much more harsh than the same sentencing with regard to whites.

Yet there are many people here who insist that everyone is treated the same and all of the problems blacks have with law enforcement are their own fault. It's like they're living in a dream world.

 

[Gachi]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

And if a disproportionate amount of crimes are being perpetrated by black males...what are you supposed to do? Not lock them up because it'll look like there's some racial bias?

Not that there isn't some bias...I'm sure there is...but damn. How do you get past some of those numbers above?

13% of the population is murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

And I'm sure those numbers continue to skew for other violent crimes across the board...not just murders.

That's exactly my point. 13 percent of the population is NOT murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

There's roughly 45 million African-Americans (non-immigrant blacks) living in the U.S. today. They all aren't "thugs." Despite years of systematic discrimination and disenfranchisement a lot of black people are gainfully employed and live normal lives.

And if you want to play the numbers game a whole helluva a lot more white people deal and do drugs than black. Yet blacks are arrested more for drug related charges. I wonder why that is?

Not just that, but according to the ACLU the sentencing for blacks with regard to drug charges is much more harsh than the same sentencing with regard to whites.

Yet there are many people here who insist that everyone is treated the same and all of the problems blacks have with law enforcement are their own fault. It's like they're living in a dream world.

White people have that luxury, others do not.

 

[SIDA!]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

Are you seriously making the argument that Sharpton isn't a race baiter or did I misread you?

I don't consider him one. And a majority of the black community would agree with me. If you feel otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Is there such a thing as a black race baiter in your eyes? Please list some examples? I would also be curious to hear your definition of what a race-baiter is.

 

[timschochet]

Al Sharpton is absolutely the definition of a race-baiter. Although he has modified somewhat in recent years, his long term history is almost wholly bad. The Tawana Brawley story, which most people know was a complete fabrication, was bad enough, but his involvement in the Crown Heights riots was, if anything, even worse. As I wrote earlier, this is not a good person. I would refuse to shake his hand or be in the same room with him.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.

Do you think Michael Brown was a thug?

Turning Michael Brown into a really bad guy is just as wrong, IMO, as turning him into some kind of hero. I think Michael Brown was a stupid thug

.

 

[timschochet]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.

Do you think Michael Brown was a thug?

Turning Michael Brown into a really bad guy is just as wrong, IMO, as turning him into some kind of hero. I think Michael Brown was a stupid thug

.

Yes I do, based on what we know. But I don't go into these situations believing that all black men who get in trouble with the law are thugs. I certainly didn't think Trayvon Martin was a thug, and I couldn't believe the continual attacks in this forum by people who tried to paint him as a thug- led principally by two guys named Carolina Hustler and JoJo the Circus Boy. Their smears during the months before the trial were completely ridiculous and ugly, and filled with racial overtones.

 

[Jim11]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

Are you seriously making the argument that Sharpton isn't a race baiter or did I misread you?

I don't consider him one. And a majority of the black community would agree with me. If you feel otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Myopic much?

 

[squistion]

Tim, he was just one of many Civil Rights leaders who met with Obama today. Like it or not, your view of him is not shared by a majority of African Americans and he is considered by them a legitimate spokesman for the black community on matters of race relations. I don't want to debate with you Sharpton's past or positions, just pointing that not everyone considers his meeting with Obama the embarrassment you do.

The POTUS should not be meeting with a serial race baiter. Ever.

I agree, and if he ever meets with one, I'll let you know.

Are you seriously making the argument that Sharpton isn't a race baiter or did I misread you?

I don't consider him one. And a majority of the black community would agree with me. If you feel otherwise, you are certainly entitled to your opinion.

Is there such a thing as a black race baiter in your eyes? Please list some examples? I would also be curious to hear your definition of what a race-baiter is.

As I mentioned to Tim, I don't intend to debate anything with the Sharpton haters. I have better things to do with my time than have a futile discussion with anyone whose starting point is the perception that Sharpton is a race baiter.

 

[Jim11]

As I mentioned to Tim, I don't intend to debate anything with the Sharpton haters. I have better things to do with my time than have a futile discussion with anyone whose starting point is the perception that Sharpton is a race baiter.

Gee, how could anyone have the perception that Sharpton is a race baiter? Exhibit A - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MlUtZ5F_Mk

No wonder you won't debate it.

 

[Zegras11]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.

Yep.

And who do blacks vote for decade after decade? Some of the worst areas like New Orleans, Chicago, and Detroit have been under dem rule for periods of 40 years.

These elected leaders talk about lifting them up, but in the end all they want is their votes (more interested in power) and the situation gets worse and worse for them as it gets ingrained in each generation that passes.

At some point, they will wake up and decide for themselves that only THEY can lift themselves. #### the GOVT, #### the cops. Quit blaming everyone else and get up and lift yourself. It will be hard as hell but it's the only way out.

We're all only responsible for ourselves. And nothing good long term EVER happens when you give that responsibility to someone else.

The COPS did NOT create this situation. A very SMALL percent of them are making a horrible condition worse for them and others that choose violence/crime as a life. Anyone can choose to change their behavior if they want to. I hope they choose to do that soon.

I love the non-violent protests. But I don't understand one bit how they think screwing up other innocent lives by looting, burning and causing traffic jams can possibly help their cause long term.

And the media is just as bad and to blame as the ####ty cops that make this worse.

 

[SIDA!]

As I mentioned to Tim, I don't intend to debate anything with the Sharpton haters. I have better things to do with my time than have a futile discussion with anyone whose starting point is the perception that Sharpton is a race baiter.

Ok. Then lets ignore Al Sharpton.

Please provide us with your definition of what a race baiter is and please provide an example of a black male or female leader who has engaged in race baiting.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.

Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.

You referred to Michael Brown as a "thug" yesterday.