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Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (2 Viewers)

I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.
Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.
Yep.

And who do blacks vote for decade after decade? Some of the worst areas like New Orleans, Chicago, and Detroit have been under dem rule for periods of 40 years.

These elected leaders talk about lifting them up, but in the end all they want is their votes (more interested in power) and the situation gets worse and worse for them as it gets ingrained in each generation that passes.

At some point, they will wake up and decide for themselves that only THEY can lift themselves. #### the GOVT, #### the cops. Quit blaming everyone else and get up and lift yourself. It will be hard as hell but it's the only way out.

We're all only responsible for ourselves. And nothing good long term EVER happens when you give that responsibility to someone else.

The COPS did NOT create this situation. A very SMALL percent of them are making a horrible condition worse for them and others that choose violence/crime as a life. Anyone can choose to change their behavior if they want to. I hope they choose to do that soon.

I love the non-violent protests. But I don't understand one bit how they think screwing up other innocent lives by looting, burning and causing traffic jams can possibly help their cause long term.

And the media is just as bad and to blame as the ####ty cops that make this worse.
Crime is down in Detroit. It's down in New Orleans since Katrina. It's down in Oakland, dramatically, this year (Oakland just elected a white female mayor, btw). It's down dramatically in Chicago this year. All still have their very bad areas, of course, but the notion that crime continues to increase unabated just simply isn't true, and it's backed up by the FBI statsistics.

 
I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.
Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.
Yep.

And who do blacks vote for decade after decade? Some of the worst areas like New Orleans, Chicago, and Detroit have been under dem rule for periods of 40 years.

These elected leaders talk about lifting them up, but in the end all they want is their votes (more interested in power) and the situation gets worse and worse for them as it gets ingrained in each generation that passes.

At some point, they will wake up and decide for themselves that only THEY can lift themselves. #### the GOVT, #### the cops. Quit blaming everyone else and get up and lift yourself. It will be hard as hell but it's the only way out.

We're all only responsible for ourselves. And nothing good long term EVER happens when you give that responsibility to someone else.

The COPS did NOT create this situation. A very SMALL percent of them are making a horrible condition worse for them and others that choose violence/crime as a life. Anyone can choose to change their behavior if they want to. I hope they choose to do that soon.

I love the non-violent protests. But I don't understand one bit how they think screwing up other innocent lives by looting, burning and causing traffic jams can possibly help their cause long term.

And the media is just as bad and to blame as the ####ty cops that make this worse.
Crime is down in Detroit. It's down in New Orleans since Katrina. It's down in Oakland, dramatically, this year (Oakland just elected a white female mayor, btw). It's down dramatically in Chicago this year. All still have their very bad areas, of course, but the notion that crime continues to increase unabated just simply isn't true, and it's backed up by the FBI statsistics.
I'm glad to hear this... I was just pointing out areas that have had some serious problems for periods of around 40 years straight.

I have an old frat buddy that's been a cop in South Central for 30 years. I'm going to email him and ask him his thoughts on all this...

 
I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.
Thanks for your perspective, Gachi. I've made this same argument for years in this forum, and it hasn't gone down well with many of the people here. Hopefully you will have better luck.
Yep.

And who do blacks vote for decade after decade? Some of the worst areas like New Orleans, Chicago, and Detroit have been under dem rule for periods of 40 years.

These elected leaders talk about lifting them up, but in the end all they want is their votes (more interested in power) and the situation gets worse and worse for them as it gets ingrained in each generation that passes.

At some point, they will wake up and decide for themselves that only THEY can lift themselves. #### the GOVT, #### the cops. Quit blaming everyone else and get up and lift yourself. It will be hard as hell but it's the only way out.

We're all only responsible for ourselves. And nothing good long term EVER happens when you give that responsibility to someone else.

The COPS did NOT create this situation. A very SMALL percent of them are making a horrible condition worse for them and others that choose violence/crime as a life. Anyone can choose to change their behavior if they want to. I hope they choose to do that soon.

I love the non-violent protests. But I don't understand one bit how they think screwing up other innocent lives by looting, burning and causing traffic jams can possibly help their cause long term.

And the media is just as bad and to blame as the ####ty cops that make this worse.
Crime is down in Detroit. It's down in New Orleans since Katrina. It's down in Oakland, dramatically, this year (Oakland just elected a white female mayor, btw). It's down dramatically in Chicago this year. All still have their very bad areas, of course, but the notion that crime continues to increase unabated just simply isn't true, and it's backed up by the FBI statsistics.
Thanks, Obama.

 
I haven't been reading this thread. I've been on this website long enough to know that it's primarily upper middle class white guys who post here, with a few"others" sprinkled here and there. But even the Wilson defenders (I'm sure there are many, like I said I haven't been reading the thread) can agree on this.

It's "different" when cops interact with black males versus other races. This is primarily because historically black people have not been judged on an individual basis, all black men are "thugs" basically. Trayvon was called a thug as well as Michael Brown. And the consensus is that "thugs" are a cancer to society therefore should be exterminated like roaches. Black men are killed at the hands up cops about 5 times more than white males. Blacks are about 40% of the prison population yet are only 13% of the overall population. For me, that's an issue. And honestly I don't think it's all black people's fault either.

Now, If your suburban rose-colored glasses won't allow you to agree with the above I don't know what to tell you.
And if a disproportionate amount of crimes are being perpetrated by black males...what are you supposed to do? Not lock them up because it'll look like there's some racial bias?

Not that there isn't some bias...I'm sure there is...but damn. How do you get past some of those numbers above?

13% of the population is murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

And I'm sure those numbers continue to skew for other violent crimes across the board...not just murders.
That's exactly my point. 13 percent of the population is NOT murdering 1000 more people than 63% of the population.

There's roughly 45 million African-Americans (non-immigrant blacks) living in the U.S. today. They all aren't "thugs." Despite years of systematic discrimination and disenfranchisement a lot of black people are gainfully employed and live normal lives.

And if you want to play the numbers game a whole helluva a lot more white people deal and do drugs than black. Yet blacks are arrested more for drug related charges. I wonder why that is?
Your use and explanation of the disparity between races is inconsistent and illogical. It is completely a dishonest argument to make that blacks represent a disproportionate amount of the prison population, but then refuse to admit they commit an even higher disproportionate amount of the violent crimes. You either have an honest discussion or you continue the misleading rhetoric which will go nowhere.

 
When you find yourself forced to defend Al Shapton's record on racial issues, maybe it's time to reconsider how you arrived at this point.

 
How much ground did Brown cover from the first blood drop to where he fell?

And is that a reasonable distance to cover while casually pimp strolling all the while eating bullets?

Or is it more likely he was charging and taking bullets as he was covering said ground?

I mean, if we're talking more than a few feet...how does anyone continue to prattle on about how this innocent young child was simply complying, with his hands up...slowly walking towards the officer in order to be calmly detained...while getting pumped full of lead? Were the shots in continuous succession? If so, then slow walking angel would've went down within a few feet.

If it's more than a few feet of blood drops...then how does anyone reasonably explain that? How do you cover that much ground while eating so many shots? And why do you continue to advance if you're getting shot while complying? None of this makes any sense whatsoever. I realize people are just spewing their insanity with little regard for logic but come on...
I always understood speed to be a function of distance and time. We have some distance estimates from physical evidence, and some time parameters from audio tape from the phone sex guy, but neither of the two are completely well defined as to starting and stopping points, but rather only to the number and timing of the shots so we do not have a really good way to calculate speed, not yet at least. I mean I guess we have some stopping point with the last shot being immediately fatal and his falling dead point but the first shot probably does not represent his starting position in its blood splatter because at least arguably he may have been further removed, started towards the officer, and traveled some distance in the Officer's reaction time. The first blood splatter spot may not represent the far side of the distance he traveled.
I've typed a post about five times and deleted it regarding police misconduct and a case I verified today that I have no confidentiality issues with. Suffice it to say that the South Park "he's coming right for us!" defense is less than persuasive to me.
Don't do anything to make yourself uncomfortable. This discussion is not worth any professional worry, no matter how slight. Maybe someday you will have a layover at DIA and we can share a drink and some BS one on one. I'd be honored to buy the first round.
I say we drink and dash.
My dashing days are over.

 
O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.
So... There are about five times as many whites, but only 2.7 or so as many whites shot to death by the police? I'm only a law talking guy, but doesn't that mean there are about twice as many blacks shot to death by police as whites per capita?
Maybe it's because blacks commit more violent crime?

 
O'Reilly's take.

http://www.billoreilly.com/b/What-the-Ferguson-Protestors-Accomplished/-668360780598739109.html

In 2012, 123 African-Americans were shot dead by police. Same year, 326 whites were killed by police bullets.

In 2013, blacks committed 5,375 murders in America. Whites committed 4,396.

Whites comprise 63% of the population. Blacks, 13%.
So... There are about five times as many whites, but only 2.7 or so as many whites shot to death by the police? I'm only a law talking guy, but doesn't that mean there are about twice as many blacks shot to death by police as whites per capita?
Maybe it's because blacks commit more violent crime?
Maybe. Like the guy with expired tags who was speeding to get home to get his daughter's inhaler last weekend? Near miss.

 
The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...

 
The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...
I know I've done this post several times already, but here it is again. Sorry for repeating myself on this one but it keeps coming up:

The facts of the case are small potatoes here. It's all about the police reaction from the moment the body hit the pavement. The list of things that area law enforcement has done wrong since then is a mile long. At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. That is the reason this case has gotten the attention that it has, not the details of the shooting itself.

Don't believe me? Consider the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland. From what we know it appears to a far worse incident in every respect, and it comes on the heels of the Brown shooting to boot. So why no riots in Cleveland? Because of the behavior of the police and local politicians since it happened. Prompt ID of the officers involved, release of a videotape by the police, mayor-initiated community forums, no confrontational behavior or overreactions by the police at the initial protests, and so on and so on. The cops and politicians there seem to "get it," at least so far. Maybe it's because of what happened in Ferguson, or maybe that's just a vastly better law enforcement community and better local leadership. But the relative lack of tension and conflict there shows pretty clearly that it's not the shooting itself in a vacuum that's got people angry about Ferguson.

 
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The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...
I know I've done this post several times already, but here it is again. Sorry for repeating myself on this one but it keeps coming up:

The facts of the case are small potatoes here. It's all about the police reaction from the moment the body hit the pavement. The list of things that area law enforcement has done wrong since then is a mile long. At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. That is the reason this case has gotten the attention that it has, not the details of the shooting itself.

Don't believe me? Consider the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland. From what we know it appears to a far worse incident in every respect, and it comes on the heels of the Brown shooting to boot. So why no riots in Cleveland? Because of the behavior of the police and local politicians since it happened. Prompt ID of the officers involved, release of a videotape by the police, mayor-initiated community forums, no confrontational behavior or overreactions by the police at the initial protests, and so on and so on. The cops and politicians there seem to "get it," at least so far. Maybe it's because of what happened in Ferguson, or maybe that's just a vastly better law enforcement community and better local leadership. But the relative lack of tension and conflict there shows pretty clearly that it's not the shooting itself in a vacuum that's got people angry about Ferguson.
So stonewalling, cover-ups, and lack of transparency are bad things? Yeah, Holder is the perfect guy to fix these issues. :lol:

 
The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...
I know I've done this post several times already, but here it is again. Sorry for repeating myself on this one but it keeps coming up:

The facts of the case are small potatoes here. It's all about the police reaction from the moment the body hit the pavement. The list of things that area law enforcement has done wrong since then is a mile long. At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. That is the reason this case has gotten the attention that it has, not the details of the shooting itself.

Don't believe me? Consider the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland. From what we know it appears to a far worse incident in every respect, and it comes on the heels of the Brown shooting to boot. So why no riots in Cleveland? Because of the behavior of the police and local politicians since it happened. Prompt ID of the officers involved, release of a videotape by the police, mayor-initiated community forums, no confrontational behavior or overreactions by the police at the initial protests, and so on and so on. The cops and politicians there seem to "get it," at least so far. Maybe it's because of what happened in Ferguson, or maybe that's just a vastly better law enforcement community and better local leadership. But the relative lack of tension and conflict there shows pretty clearly that it's not the shooting itself in a vacuum that's got people angry about Ferguson.
Excellent points.

 
At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect.
Sounds like Benghazi....
Everything sounds like Benghazi to conservatives. I just farted into my chair and a right-winger immediately came running into my office talking about how the recent House report doesn't actually absolve the Obama administration

 
The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...
I know I've done this post several times already, but here it is again. Sorry for repeating myself on this one but it keeps coming up:

The facts of the case are small potatoes here. It's all about the police reaction from the moment the body hit the pavement. The list of things that area law enforcement has done wrong since then is a mile long. At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. That is the reason this case has gotten the attention that it has, not the details of the shooting itself.

Don't believe me? Consider the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland. From what we know it appears to a far worse incident in every respect, and it comes on the heels of the Brown shooting to boot. So why no riots in Cleveland? Because of the behavior of the police and local politicians since it happened. Prompt ID of the officers involved, release of a videotape by the police, mayor-initiated community forums, no confrontational behavior or overreactions by the police at the initial protests, and so on and so on. The cops and politicians there seem to "get it," at least so far. Maybe it's because of what happened in Ferguson, or maybe that's just a vastly better law enforcement community and better local leadership. But the relative lack of tension and conflict there shows pretty clearly that it's not the shooting itself in a vacuum that's got people angry about Ferguson.
good points, but keep in mind that with Ferguson, the day after the shooting, there was violence and the Federal government stepping in. This may have changed the mindset. I do agree that it doesn't excuse the lack of transparency, confrontational attitude and overreaction, but i do understand withholding the name of the officer...

 
At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect.
Sounds like Benghazi....
Everything sounds like Benghazi to conservatives. I just farted into my chair and a right-winger immediately came running into my office talking about how the recent House report doesn't actually absolve the Obama administration
:lmao:

 
The problem is that many people on both sides view Trayvon or Brown as a black person first and that alters their perception. Either they immediately become a thug or they immediately become a victim/symbol of societal racism. In Brown's case, the facts really paint him in a very bad light It really has to be a butt-hurting in that activists could have easily found other cases of racist treatment from law enforcement and kept doubling down on an incident where the facts were not going go their way, It's sad. The way the media really played this up...I'm wondering if they had already sensed the outcome and were trying to drive up racial division and hoping for violence...
I know I've done this post several times already, but here it is again. Sorry for repeating myself on this one but it keeps coming up:

The facts of the case are small potatoes here. It's all about the police reaction from the moment the body hit the pavement. The list of things that area law enforcement has done wrong since then is a mile long. At each step they've closed up ranks, prioritized protecting their own over justice and transparency, and made it seem that the community was their enemy instead of the people they are sworn to serve and protect. That is the reason this case has gotten the attention that it has, not the details of the shooting itself.

Don't believe me? Consider the Tamir Rice shooting in Cleveland. From what we know it appears to a far worse incident in every respect, and it comes on the heels of the Brown shooting to boot. So why no riots in Cleveland? Because of the behavior of the police and local politicians since it happened. Prompt ID of the officers involved, release of a videotape by the police, mayor-initiated community forums, no confrontational behavior or overreactions by the police at the initial protests, and so on and so on. The cops and politicians there seem to "get it," at least so far. Maybe it's because of what happened in Ferguson, or maybe that's just a vastly better law enforcement community and better local leadership. But the relative lack of tension and conflict there shows pretty clearly that it's not the shooting itself in a vacuum that's got people angry about Ferguson.
good points, but keep in mind that with Ferguson, the day after the shooting, there was violence and the Federal government stepping in. This may have changed the mindset. I do agree that it doesn't excuse the lack of transparency, confrontational attitude and overreaction, but i do understand withholding the name of the officer...
There was some bad stuff the next night, but IMO the escalation could have stopped there if there had been outreach efforts instead of militarization. Just look what happened for one night when they called in the Missouri state police and that black officer ... until that fiasco of a press conference by the Ferguson cops the next morning lit the fire again.

 
Any count on how many radical groups have joined this?

Kinda like the Bundy fiasco where nuts came out of the woodwork to get in some hate.

 
On the oft debated "charge" by Mike Brown...

Washington Post via The Volokh Conspiracy

Witness 10 proves Darren Wilson had a reasonable belief he needed to shoot Michael Brown

December 1, 2014

Missouri law allows a person to use deadly force defending himself when he has a “reasonable belief” he needs to use deadly force. The law goes on to define a reasonable belief as one based on “grounds that could lead a reasonable person in the same situation to the same belief.”

Unsurprisingly, Officer Darren Wilson testified to the grand jury that he reasonably believed he needed to use deadly force to defend himself against Michael Brown. But the clinching argument on this point is that other reasonable people — i.e., some credible eyewitnesses — agreed with Wilson.

In previous posts, I have discussed how the grand jury process was fair, how Officer Wilson’s testimony covered the bases of Missouri self-defense law, and how the physical evidence bolstered his credibility. In this post, I turn to eyewitness testimony — which The Post has helpfully collected in this story. It would be difficult to discuss in detail the testimony of all of several dozen eyewitnesses. But a defendant raising self-defense need not show that his interpretation was the only one; rather he need only show that it was a reasonable one — i.e., a conclusion a reasonable person could reach based on all the facts.

Against that backdrop, I want to review in detail the testimony of one seemingly reasonable and neutral observer — Witness No. 10. If his objective assessment was that Officer Wilson acted appropriately, that would be strong evidence demonstrating that Wilson’s belief was reasonable.

Witness 10 told the grand jury that he was outside while working a job on Canfield Drive when two men (later identified as Mike Brown and Dorian Johnson) walked by him. He then was able to see the events in question with a direct line of sight. Witness 10 saw the struggle in Wilson’s police car — with Brown confronting Wilson inside the car:

I just see Mr. Brown inside the police officer’s window. It appeared as [though] some sort of confrontation was taking place…. [T]hat took place for seconds, I’m not sure how long…. And one shot, the first shot was let loose and after the first shot, Mike Brown came out of the window and took off running. So my initial thought was that wow, did I just witness this young guy kill a police officer (grand jury testimony, Vol. 6, page 165, line 23, hereafter cited by just page and line number).

Witness 10 elaborated about Brown’s position: “Half of his body, his feet was still planted on the ground, his upper body was inside the window in a leaning motion inside the window, his upper body was inside” (169:21). And while the witness could not hear what was being said inside the car, “it just looked out of the norm with somebody being leaned over inside the police officer’s car” (171:15). Witness 10 then explained that, after the firing of a shot, Michael Brown and his friend took off down Canfield Drive. Officer Wilson remained in his car briefly, and then pursued with his gun drawn — but not firing at Brown (177:15). Eventually Brown stopped.

According to Witness 10, Brown then turned and ran “full charge” toward Wilson:

He [Mike Brown] stopped. He did turn, he did some sort of body gesture, I’m not sure what it was, but I know it was a body gesture. And I could say for sure he never put his hands up after he did his body gesture, he ran towards the officer full charge. The officer fired several shots at him and to give an estimate, I would say roughly around five to six shots was fired at Mike Brown. Mike Brown was still coming towards the office and at this point I’m thinking, wow, is this officer missing Mike Brown at this close of a range. Mike Brown continuously came forward in the charging motion and at some point, at one point he started to slow down and he came to a stop. And when he stopped, that’s when the officer ceased fire and when he ceased fired, Mike Brown started to charge once more at him. When he charged once more, the officer returned fire with, I would say, give an estimate of three to four shots. And that’s when Mike Brown finally collapsed…. (166:21-167:18).

With regard to the body gesture, Witness 10 explained: “All I know is it was not in a surrendering motion of I’m surrendering, putting my hands up or anything, I’m not sure. If it was like a shoulder shrug or him pulling his pants up, I’m not sure. I really don’t want to speculate [about] things….” (180:5). But “mmediately after he [brown] did his body gesture, he comes for force, full charge at the officer” (180:16). Ultimately, in the view of Witness 10, the officer’s life was in jeopardy when Brown charged him from close range (206:4).

Under Missouri law, this testimony by itself (even apart from any other evidence) would have provided a sound basis for the grand jury to decline to return any charges against Wilson. A Missouri appellate decision approves the following jury instruction allowing deadly force when supported by a “reasonable belief” in the need to use such force:

In order for a person lawfully to use force in self-defense, he must reasonably believe he is in imminent danger of harm from the other person. He need not be in actual danger but he must have a reasonable belief that he is in such danger…. But a person is not permitted to use deadly force, that is, force that he knows will create a substantial risk of causing death or serious physical injury, unless he reasonably believes he is in imminent danger of death or serious physical injury. And, even then, a person may use deadly force only if he reasonably believes the use of such force is necessary to protect himself.

Of particular importance for this post, Missouri law defines a “reasonable belief” as one that would be held by a reasonable person knowing the same facts:

As used in this instruction, the term “reasonable belief” means a belief based on reasonable grounds, that is, grounds that could lead a reasonable person in the same situation to the same belief. This depends upon how the facts reasonably appeared. It does not depend upon whether the belief turned out to be true or false.

Witness 10 was a neutral observer who saw all the same things that Officer Wilson saw (albeit from a safe distance). He concluded that Wilson’s life was in jeopardy. This would seem to be very strong evidence that a reasonable person could reasonably conclude that deadly force was required to protect against 300-pound Mike Brown’s “full on charge.”

Moreover, Witness 10′s version of the facts is quite credible. Witness 10 saw a “confrontation,” and Mike Brown’s DNA was later found inside the car. Indeed, Witness 10 was afraid that Brown might have killed the police officer inside the car when he heard the firing of a single shot. (The ballistics evidence shows two shots were fired at the car, so that is a point of difference.) Witness 10 then describes Wilson pursuing Brown but not firing any shots along the way. Here again, the ballistics tracks this testimony.

Finally, Witness 10 describes Wilson firing a series of shots as Brown charged forward. This conforms to the physical evidence showing that the bullet wounds to Brown’s body and head came from the front and that they had a downward trajectory.

Witness 10 not only gave this testimony to the grand jury under oath on Sept. 23, but also much earlier. On Monday, Aug. 11 — two days after the shooting — he gave a recorded interview to two St. Louis County Police detectives. This was before any autopsy had been completed and before the media had reported other physical evidence. Witness 10′s later grand jury testimony is consistent with the statement he gave the police just 48 hours after the shooting.

Perhaps even more important for those trying to get to the bottom of what happened is that Witness 10′s sworn testimony tracks almost perfectly the sworn testimony of Darren Wilson. For example, Witness 10 describes Wilson pursuing but not firing at Brown initially, until Brown turned and charged. Moreover, Witness 10 describes an initial series of shots, Brown stopping, Wilson stopping firing, and then Brown resuming his charge. Wilson gave the same testimony, talking about a “pause” between a first and second round of shots (vol. 5, 229:1) — only to be forced to fire by Brown’s final rush.

In sum, Witness 10 had a clear view of all the events. He gave testimony that tracked not only Officer Wilson’s testimony, but also the ballistic evidence. He gave a (recorded) statement to the police very shortly after the events. He did not know Michael Brown or Officer Wilson. And, for those who deem this important, he was reportedly an African American.

What about other eyewitness testimony? Witness 10 was not the only witness to describe a “charge” by Brown. One woman testified, “I thought he [brown] was trying to charge him [Wilson] at first because the only thing I kept saying was is he crazy? Why don’t he just stop instead of running because if somebody is pulling a gun on you, first thing I would think is to drop down on the ground and not try to look like I’m going to attack ‘em, but that was my opinion” (vol. 11, 181:5). Another woman testified that “[t]hen Michael turned around and started charging towards the officer and the officer [was] still yelling stop. He did have his firearm drawn, but he was yelling stop, stop, stop. He [brown] didn’t so he started shooting him” (vol. 18, 27:9).

Of course, as some commenters to my previous post pointed out, other eyewitnesses reported a different version of what happened, including the widely publicized “hands up, don’t shoot” account. PBS Newshour has put together a chart of at least some of the competing witness statements. Summarizing the chart, PBS reported that its “data” showed that “[m]ore than 50 percent of the witness statements said that Michael Brown held his hands up when Darren Wilson shot him. (16 out of 29 such statements).”

PBS acknowledged that its chart “doesn’t reveal who was right or wrong about what happened that day, but it is a clear indication that perceptions and memories can vary dramatically.” This concession is required, because a fair assessment (such as the grand jury was tasked with making) involves not simply toting up the number of witnesses on competing sides, but determining the quality of their accounts. The grand jury observed the demeanor of all of the witnesses and, perhaps even more important, had other evidence (including physical evidence) to sort out which witnesses were giving credible testimony.


Why should Witness 10′s testimony be believed over other accounts? Sadly, Witness 10 gives a clear explanation about how at least some of these conflicting accounts developed. He explained that immediately after the shooting, he began “observing the chaotic [situation], how it got so chaotic so quick[ly], and different point of views on, it didn’t add up to what I actually witnessed. I felt very uncomfortable and … I would probably estimate I was down on the scene maybe five to 10 minutes … just observing everything and how the uproar became about so quickly”(vol. 6, 190:16). When he started saying what he had seen, some in the crowd became verbally “violent” toward him (204:3) and started directing racial slurs toward him (206:10). The next day, Witness 10 felt even more uncomfortable after he had “seen all the rioting. I just felt bad about the situation. I knew that I needed to come forward to let the truth be told” (192:6).

And so, “after seeing the rioting,” he called St. Louis County Police: “So I went down to the police station and I felt uncomfortable then just walking past all the protesting that was going on, but I knew it was the right thing to do. It is an unfortunate situation, but I know God put me in this situation for a reason” (192:21). Witness 10 also spoke poignantly of trying to bring some comfort to Michael Brown’s family:

I came forward to bring closure to the family and also for the police officer because … with me knowing actually what happened … I know it is going to be a hard case and a hard thing to prove with so many people that’s saying the opposite of what I actually seen. I just wanted to bring closure to the family not thinking that hey … they got away with murdering my son. I do know that there is corruption in some police departments and I believe that this was not the case. And I just wanted to bring closure to the family (194:22).

Witness 10 also told the grand jury about a continuing concern for safety in testifying: “Within my [redacted] family … [t]hey fear for my safety or our family’s safety” (206:2).

Given the intimidation campaign that Witness 10 described, it is not surprising that PBS would find that a slight majority of the statements tracked the narrative that the “Hands Up, Don’t Shoot” protesters were relying on. More helpful than the PBS chart is the collection of testimony from The Post. With links to the underlying grand jury testimony, a reader can click on the competing statements and read them in their entirety. But here is one overall assessment of what can be found among the testimony: “An Associated Press review of thousands of pages of grand jury documents reveals numerous examples of statements made during the shooting investigation that were inconsistent, fabricated or provably wrong. For one, the autopsies ultimately showed Brown was not struck by any bullets in his back.”

But as I have tried to explain in this post, the issue that the grand jury ultimately had to decide was whether Officer Wilson’s assessment of the danger he faced was a reasonable one. Witness 10 was a reasonable person. He thought Wilson faced such a danger. Unless there was good reason to doubt this witness’s apparently fair-minded assessment, Officer Wilson was entitled to use deadly force in self-defense, and the grand jury plainly did the right thing in declining to indict.
 
Witness 10 has some slight inconsistencies between the original statement and testimony. Those were never cross examined in front of the grand jury.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
And with all of this conflicting testimony, plus the forensic evidence which seems to exonerate Wilson, there is no way on earth there would ever have been a conviction. Does ANYONE disagree with that? If not, then why are we still talking about this? Sure, I get that people wanted an indictment and a trial, but at the end of that, we would have gotten a not guilty verdict, and the same end result - riots, cries of injustice, etc.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
And with all of this conflicting testimony, plus the forensic evidence which seems to exonerate Wilson, there is no way on earth there would ever have been a conviction. Does ANYONE disagree with that? If not, then why are we still talking about this? Sure, I get that people wanted an indictment and a trial, but at the end of that, we would have gotten a not guilty verdict, and the same end result - riots, cries of injustice, etc.
 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?

Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.

 
I agree there would have been no conviction. But why do people keep assuming that there would have been riots anyhow? There was no real rioting after Zimmerman got off. Nothing like this, anyhow. If Zimmerman had never been indicted there would have been rioting.

And Tobias is also correct. The key to the anger over this incident is how the police handled it, especially immediately afterward.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well. But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/

 
Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann ·

MONDAY WORSTS: St. Louis Police Union rolls over 1st Amendment to demand apology from Rams for player protest: http://j.mp/1pJcnjO
Was Keith Olbermann similarly outraged with Miami Dolphin Don Jones was suspended for tweeting 'horrible' in response to the Micheal Sam cake smudging? Olbermann's concern for the 1st Amendment is highly selective.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
or............... the fact that it is more logical to think he shot him out of fear instead of executing a man face to face that was trying to kneel down and surrender. Or....... that a witness coming forward putting his family at risk and not getting anything in return(his name is redacted) is more believable than a person that has nothing to lose at all by saying the contrary. Or....after knowing for a fact that Brown's blood was found in the car and knowing for a fact that Brown was a bully that it seems logical he would be aggressive.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question.
:confused:

Well over half the article is the author answering the question why we should trust Witness 10, and why we should trust him or her perhaps more than other witnesses. Feel free to say that you don't agree with the author's answer as to why we should trust Witness 10 over other witnesses (I'm sure many don't agree with the author), but it's incorrect to say the author doesn't answer the question. I'll reprint the pertinent parts in case you somehow missed them...

Witness 10 was a neutral observer who saw all the same things that Officer Wilson saw (albeit from a safe distance). He concluded that Wilson’s life was in jeopardy. This would seem to be very strong evidence that a reasonable person could reasonably conclude that deadly force was required to protect against 300-pound Mike Brown’s “full on charge.”

Moreover, Witness 10′s version of the facts is quite credible. Witness 10 saw a “confrontation,” and Mike Brown’s DNA was later found inside the car. Indeed, Witness 10 was afraid that Brown might have killed the police officer inside the car when he heard the firing of a single shot. (The ballistics evidence shows two shots were fired at the car, so that is a point of difference.) Witness 10 then describes Wilson pursuing Brown but not firing any shots along the way. Here again, the ballistics tracks this testimony.

Finally, Witness 10 describes Wilson firing a series of shots as Brown charged forward. This conforms to the physical evidence showing that the bullet wounds to Brown’s body and head came from the front and that they had a downward trajectory.

Witness 10 not only gave this testimony to the grand jury under oath on Sept. 23, but also much earlier. On Monday, Aug. 11 — two days after the shooting — he gave a recorded interview to two St. Louis County Police detectives. This was before any autopsy had been completed and before the media had reported other physical evidence. Witness 10′s later grand jury testimony is consistent with the statement he gave the police just 48 hours after the shooting.

Perhaps even more important for those trying to get to the bottom of what happened is that Witness 10′s sworn testimony tracks almost perfectly the sworn testimony of Darren Wilson. For example, Witness 10 describes Wilson pursuing but not firing at Brown initially, until Brown turned and charged. Moreover, Witness 10 describes an initial series of shots, Brown stopping, Wilson stopping firing, and then Brown resuming his charge. Wilson gave the same testimony, talking about a “pause” between a first and second round of shots (vol. 5, 229:1) — only to be forced to fire by Brown’s final rush.

In sum, Witness 10 had a clear view of all the events. He gave testimony that tracked not only Officer Wilson’s testimony, but also the ballistic evidence. He gave a (recorded) statement to the police very shortly after the events. He did not know Michael Brown or Officer Wilson. And, for those who deem this important, he was

 
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That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well. But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
Why do you keep asking? You won't accept the evidence out there and will find a "hole" in anything presented. We'll have to debate the definition of "charge" again and then speculate if Wilson was in danger or whether he could have done something different to avoid Brown being killed. I'm not sure why so many posters have tried to persuade your opinion (myself included), like there will be a collective sigh of relief if we've been able to convince Tim to look at the facts objectively.

 
Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann ·

MONDAY WORSTS: St. Louis Police Union rolls over 1st Amendment to demand apology from Rams for player protest: http://j.mp/1pJcnjO
So stupid. So, so stupid. Shouldn't the union be worried about other things? Like massive protests in your area and nationwide. A dead kid. Racial profiling. Like, anything but a sports protest.

eta* But the First Amendment claim is pretty dumb.

eta2* The whole damn thing is dumb. Olbermann has always been a political idiot.

 
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That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/
Thank you. Of course I've read that piece before. I have also read other opinions that dispute this one. There is a legal and forensics expert named Lisa Bloom who has appeared several times on CNN who has reached completely opposite conclusions. I refer you to her blog.

I note that nowhere in this article did the writer touch on any evidence that would prove that Brown was charging Wilson, which really is the crux of the matter, and was the point of my response to SIDA. That's because, so far as I'm aware, there is no physical evidence that can prove this one way or the other. For that, we're back to witnesses and Wilson's testimony, which means that despite all this we're back to square one.

 
Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann ·

MONDAY WORSTS: St. Louis Police Union rolls over 1st Amendment to demand apology from Rams for player protest: http://j.mp/1pJcnjO
I can't watch the video at work but if this is another example of loudmouths mis-applying the First Amendment, ugh.

There's a teeny tiny bit more gray area here because the cops are government employees, but asking for an apology is not repression of speech. Moronic, sure. Counterproductive, of course. But repressive, no.

FWIW, though, the guy who made the request on behalf of the union (Jeff Roorda) was IDed by the leading media activist on the Ferguson story as part of a dirty triumverate of politicians who are more interested in protecting cops than justice, along with McCulloch and the governor. He called out all of them in tweets way back in early September, well before McCulloch's grand jury process happened and this absurd request from Roorda was issued.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/
Thank you. Of course I've read that piece before. I have also read other opinions that dispute this one. There is a legal and forensics expert named Lisa Bloom who has appeared several times on CNN who has reached completely opposite conclusions. I refer you to her blog.

I note that nowhere in this article did the writer touch on any evidence that would prove that Brown was charging Wilson, which really is the crux of the matter, and was the point of my response to SIDA. That's because, so far as I'm aware, there is no physical evidence that can prove this one way or the other. For that, we're back to witnesses and Wilson's testimony, which means that despite all this we're back to square one.
Which, as I keep saying, we're always going to be.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
or............... the fact that it is more logical to think he shot him out of fear instead of executing a man face to face that was trying to kneel down and surrender. Or....... that a witness coming forward putting his family at risk and not getting anything in return(his name is redacted) is more believable than a person that has nothing to lose at all by saying the contrary. Or....after knowing for a fact that Brown's blood was found in the car and knowing for a fact that Brown was a bully that it seems logical he would be aggressive.
Points well taken. But it's also not logical to believe that Brown was charging.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/
Thank you. Of course I've read that piece before. I have also read other opinions that dispute this one. There is a legal and forensics expert named Lisa Bloom who has appeared several times on CNN who has reached completely opposite conclusions. I refer you to her blog.I note that nowhere in this article did the writer touch on any evidence that would prove that Brown was charging Wilson, which really is the crux of the matter, and was the point of my response to SIDA. That's because, so far as I'm aware, there is no physical evidence that can prove this one way or the other. For that, we're back to witnesses and Wilson's testimony, which means that despite all this we're back to square one.
No...you are back to square one with your arrogance on this. Was Brown shot in the back? NO!!! Keep your head in the sand Tim. It's something you are quite good at.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
Are you effing serious?

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
Why do you keep asking? You won't accept the evidence out there and will find a "hole" in anything presented. We'll have to debate the definition of "charge" again and then speculate if Wilson was in danger or whether he could have done something different to avoid Brown being killed.I'm not sure why so many posters have tried to persuade your opinion (myself included), like there will be a collective sigh of relief if we've been able to convince Tim to look at the facts objectively.
Wait- we have to debate the definition of charge? First I've heard of that. A charge is a charge. Wilson said he was coming like a demon. That's not open to too much interpretation is it?

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
Are you effing serious?
You bolded the wrong sentence. And yes, I am effing serious.

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/11/28/the-physical-evidence-in-the-michael-brown-case-supported-the-officer/
Thank you. Of course I've read that piece before. I have also read other opinions that dispute this one. There is a legal and forensics expert named Lisa Bloom who has appeared several times on CNN who has reached completely opposite conclusions. I refer you to her blog.I note that nowhere in this article did the writer touch on any evidence that would prove that Brown was charging Wilson, which really is the crux of the matter, and was the point of my response to SIDA. That's because, so far as I'm aware, there is no physical evidence that can prove this one way or the other. For that, we're back to witnesses and Wilson's testimony, which means that despite all this we're back to square one.
No...you are back to square one with your arrogance on this. Was Brown shot in the back? NO!!! Keep your head in the sand Tim. It's something you are quite good at.
I never asserted that Brown was shot in the back. What does this have to do with him charging Wilson?

 
That long article correctly asks the question why we should trust witness. 10 and not the other witnesses who conflict with his testimony, some of whom were quite consistent, despite the claims of many people here. Unfortunately , the article never answers the question. Neither did the prosecutor. What makes this guy more credible than the others? No answer. What makes the other consistent witnesses less credible? No answer.

Until some compelling reason is provided, I will continue to conclude that the main reason people believe Wilson and this witnesses over the others is that they want to.
You are going to sit here and say that the main reason people believe wilson is because they want to...not because the physical evidence has overwhelmingly supported what wilson and others have recounted?Nobody is going to have a perfect memory in a situation like this. I think we can all agree. But your assessment of why people believe Wilson is idiotic. I think it would be better for you to argue the reverse. That people believe the Johnson/witnesses who claimed bullets to the back because they want to...in spite of the evidence.
i think that's true of many people as well.But please explain how the physical evidence overwhelmingly supports Wilson? Does it prove that Brown was charging? You e been hinting for several days now that this is what you believe but you've never bothered to explain it.
Almost every other witness at some point reported that Brown was either kneeling down, running away, or not facing brown when shot. The forensic contradicts that. 10 was one of the few witnesses who gave the story early and whose story stood up to the facts.

 
Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann ·

MONDAY WORSTS: St. Louis Police Union rolls over 1st Amendment to demand apology from Rams for player protest: http://j.mp/1pJcnjO
Was Keith Olbermann similarly outraged with Miami Dolphin Don Jones was suspended for tweeting 'horrible' in response to the Micheal Sam cake smudging? Olbermann's concern for the 1st Amendment is highly selective.
You should tweet him that question. He has a lot of fun responding to people like you, so you might get an answer.

Actually, if you listened to the clip, he didn't express outrage. I know you expect that from Olbermann, but the World's Worst segment has always been somewhat satiric and is about laughing at people more than anything else. Keith himself does not take it as seriously as his critics, who are more outraged at his comments than Keith ever is about his WW's targets.

 
If the physical evidence doesn't prove that Brown was charging to Wilson (and I haven't seen any that does), then how is it "overwhelming"? That's central to this whole matter, because if Brown wasn't charging Wilson, then Brown was wrongfully killed.

I also want to add that people keep skipping over the fact that Wilson testified that Brown, while charging, was reaching into his waistband and that Wilson believed he might be armed. Obviously that makes no sense, because if Brown had been armed, why bother to charge? And further, no witnesses have corroborated this, not even those who stated that Brown charged. So I think it's a reasonable assumption to make that Wilson was lying about this point. And if he lied about this, why should we believe any of his testimony?

 

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