Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[mr roboto]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

They aren't meant to solve the problem. They are meant to reduce the problem and increase accountability of officers and provide critical evidence in a case.

 

[maxwelledison]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Great point.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

This is going to be a long, lawyerly "inside baseball" post that people are free to ignore, But I'm going to try to explain what personally rubs me the wrong way about the Ferguson grand jury process and why I think its representative of a certain class of cases where the adversarial system used in criminal judicial proceedings is particularly likely to be inadequate.

Typically, in a criminal case, the State's and the victim's (or the victim's family's) interests are aligned. The victim doesn't have a lawyer in the process, so he or she relies upon the State to represent him or her. And the defendant has counsel to represent him or her. So when an eyewitness account seems to implicate the defendant, it is the defendant's counsel's job to try to discredit that testimony. And when an eyewitness account tends to exculpate the defendant, it is the prosecution's job to cross-examine and try to discredit that testimony. Now, let me concede that at the outset a prosecutor is not even supposed to bring charges without a good faith belief that crime has been committed. But once evidence is presented before a grand jury, it is NOT typical for the prosecutor (who is the only "side" presenting evidence) to then attempt to cross-examine and possibly discredit the testimony of the eyewitnesses presented. That's exactly what appeared to happen to Dorian Johnson, however.

I think it's entirely appropriate for Darren Wilson's lawyer to discredit Dorian Johnson at trial. I think it's inappropriate for the State to discredit Dorian Johnson before the grand jury. Now, I've known law professors who believe we should scrap the adversarial system altogether. All proceedings should be collaborative searches for the truth, they say. Maybe they are right. But I don't believe that 99,9% of grand jury proceedings should be one-sided presentations and only those involving police officers should be collaborative searches for the truth, because you can't ignore the fact that prosecutors and police officers and forensic scientists employed by police departments very often have interests that are aligned.

When I read the transcripts from this proceeding, what I'm struck by is that the victim did not have a zealous advocate in the proceeding. That is rare, and it strikes me as problematic.

That is exactly what happened...Officer Wilson was the victim and the state represented him.

 

[maxwelledison]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

They aren't meant to solve the problem. They are meant to reduce the problem and increase accountability of officers and provide critical evidence in a case.

They won't accomplish any of those objectives if the Garner case is any indication.

 

[Todem]

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2013/05/miami-dade_police_choke_black.php

On page two of this article there is a video. This was from a year ago on a beach I grew up going almost every day to on Miami Beach.

Another example of excessive force because of dehumanizing stares from a 13 year old child.

You can find hundreds of cases like this. But the media latched onto a shooting that from everything presented was probably justified. My entire point.

Rally around real cases exhibiting the problems with police treatment of young black males. Not of an 18 yr old who just committed a strong arm robbery and assault on a police officer which is pretty much confiemed by eyewitness and forensic evidence.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

They aren't meant to solve the problem. They are meant to reduce the problem and increase accountability of officers and provide critical evidence in a case.

I personally believe that the body cameras may alter some of the criminals behavior as well...If they know they are on camera they may think twice about some of their actions....If they think at all.

 

[mr roboto]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

They aren't meant to solve the problem. They are meant to reduce the problem and increase accountability of officers and provide critical evidence in a case.

They won't accomplish any of those objectives if the Garner case is any indication.

Entirely possible but according to research posted somewhere in this thread (maybe Ditka) they do in fact have an impact.

 

[General Tso]

Witness #10

Witness #10

Witness #10

Can someone - anyone - dispute his testimony as truth? If so, I'd like to hear what his motive is for lying.

Any individual witness can be explained away without justification. Like what I wrote to Tim above, there's no cost to believing who and what you want to believe. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder.

With an attitude like that why even have a justice system? I mean, seriously. It sounds like someone who has given up.Every witness needs to be evaluated and have their credibility tested. We know for certain that many of the black witnesses in this case gave accounts that were in direct conflict with the physical evidence. We also know that many black witnesses faced pressure from other black witnesses at the scene, and the black community at large, to provide testimony that was damming to the white police officer. Yet despite this pressure, here we have witness 10, who is black, give a very detailed eyewitness account, from relatively close range, that matches the physical evidence and100% backs Officer Wilson's account.

Ince again, please give me one good reason why this witness is not trustworthy. Why would this man lie? And why does the evidence just so happen to corroborate everything he says?

If you want to just simply say that any witness can be explained away, then there's no point in arguing this anymore. I do believe that there are a LOT more people like this in the Brown camp than in the Wilson camp. It's like the OJ case all over again. It's not about justice. It's about satisfying the black side's thirst for revenge. That's all it is.

There was never any point in arguing it in the first place. It's a ridiculous, fruitless endeavor to think you can find some unassailable truth. It's just a distraction from the much larger and more important issues.

Also ... "the black side's thirst for revenge"? Wow. That's awful. Maybe take a deep breath and sit out the next few plays.

Sorry for the hardcore rhetoric, but I'm getting frustrated... Lots of accusations back at me, and a few misdirections as well, but no real substantive discourse on my questions about Witness #10.The simple fact is - the evidence in this case overwhelmingly supports the Grand Jury's ultimate finding that a crime was not committed by Officer Wilson. Period. End of story.

We can misdirect all we want. We can complain about the process. But that doesn't change the evidence. We can complain about the history of racism in this country. But that doesn't mean Wilson acted inappropriately. We can complain about the over-aggressive use of force by police in general - but that doesn't mean an injustice was done in this particular case.

I said it before and I'll say it again - right church, wrong pew. As Martin Luther King said, "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". Officer Wilson was absolutely screwed here. It's just as wrong as the injustices that occurred in the Jim Crow South with the lynchings. And most of the Brown protesters know this deep down, and if they don't, then they simply haven't looked at the evidence.

I'm sorry if this hurts my black brothers and sisters out there. I've fought many many battles alongside you and will continue to do so in the future. But I will not fight this battle. It's just wrong. Plain and simple. And it's nothing but a distraction from the real issues facing us. You have fallen into a trap my friends.

 

[Todem]

Witness #10

Witness #10

Witness #10

Can someone - anyone - dispute his testimony as truth? If so, I'd like to hear what his motive is for lying.

Any individual witness can be explained away without justification. Like what I wrote to Tim above, there's no cost to believing who and what you want to believe. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder.

With an attitude like that why even have a justice system? I mean, seriously. It sounds like someone who has given up.Every witness needs to be evaluated and have their credibility tested. We know for certain that many of the black witnesses in this case gave accounts that were in direct conflict with the physical evidence. We also know that many black witnesses faced pressure from other black witnesses at the scene, and the black community at large, to provide testimony that was damming to the white police officer. Yet despite this pressure, here we have witness 10, who is black, give a very detailed eyewitness account, from relatively close range, that matches the physical evidence and100% backs Officer Wilson's account.

Ince again, please give me one good reason why this witness is not trustworthy. Why would this man lie? And why does the evidence just so happen to corroborate everything he says?

If you want to just simply say that any witness can be explained away, then there's no point in arguing this anymore. I do believe that there are a LOT more people like this in the Brown camp than in the Wilson camp. It's like the OJ case all over again. It's not about justice. It's about satisfying the black side's thirst for revenge. That's all it is.

There was never any point in arguing it in the first place. It's a ridiculous, fruitless endeavor to think you can find some unassailable truth. It's just a distraction from the much larger and more important issues.

Also ... "the black side's thirst for revenge"? Wow. That's awful. Maybe take a deep breath and sit out the next few plays.

Sorry for the hardcore rhetoric, but I'm getting frustrated... Lots of accusations back at me, and a few misdirections as well, but no real substantive discourse on my questions about Witness #10.The simple fact is - the evidence in this case overwhelmingly supports the Grand Jury's ultimate finding that a crime was not committed by Officer Wilson. Period. End of story.

We can misdirect all we want. We can complain about the process. But that doesn't change the evidence. We can complain about the history of racism in this country. But that doesn't mean Wilson acted inappropriately. We can complain about the over-aggressive use of force by police in general - but that doesn't mean an injustice was done in this particular case.

I said it before and I'll say it again - right church, wrong pew. As Martin Luther King said, "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". Officer Wilson was absolutely screwed here. It's just as wrong as the injustices that occurred in the Jim Crow South with the lynchings. And most of the Brown protesters know this deep down, and if they don't, then they simply haven't looked at the evidence.

I'm sorry if this hurts my black brothers and sisters out there. I've fought many many battles alongside you and will continue to do so in the future. But I will not fight this battle. It's just wrong. Plain and simple. And it's nothing but a distraction from the real issues facing us. You have fallen into a trap my friends.

Very

 

[TobiasFunke]

Sorry for the hardcore rhetoric, but I'm getting frustrated... Lots of accusations back at me, and a few misdirections as well, but no real substantive discourse on my questions about Witness #10.The simple fact is - the evidence in this case overwhelmingly supports the Grand Jury's ultimate finding that a crime was not committed by Officer Wilson. Period. End of story.

We can misdirect all we want. We can complain about the process. But that doesn't change the evidence. We can complain about the history of racism in this country. But that doesn't mean Wilson acted inappropriately. We can complain about the over-aggressive use of force by police in general - but that doesn't mean an injustice was done in this particular case.

I said it before and I'll say it again - right church, wrong pew. As Martin Luther King said, "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". Officer Wilson was absolutely screwed here. It's just as wrong as the injustices that occurred in the Jim Crow South with the lynchings. And most of the Brown protesters know this deep down, and if they don't, then they simply haven't looked at the evidence.

I'm sorry if this hurts my black brothers and sisters out there. I've fought many many battles alongside you and will continue to do so in the future. But I will not fight this battle. It's just wrong. Plain and simple. And it's nothing but a distraction from the real issues facing us. You have fallen into a trap my friends.

I was all ready to reply to your post and point out that nobody has looked at all the evidence, because Wilson's story was never subjected to the scrutiny applied by the "prosecutor" to the eyewitness narratives.

But then I got to the bolded, and, well ...

 

[TheWalkmen]

NYC Christmas tree lighting tonight...this could get real ugly

This is NY not bum#### Missouri

Because we all know New Yorkers are much more sophisticated and civilized than St. Louisans.

 

[TheWalkmen]

This Garner case doesn't seem to have the same buzz to it though. Unarmed black teenager has the catchy buzzword appeal.

 

[timschochet]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

 

[Todem]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

 

[SIDA!]

Witness #10

Witness #10

Witness #10

Can someone - anyone - dispute his testimony as truth? If so, I'd like to hear what his motive is for lying.

Any individual witness can be explained away without justification. Like what I wrote to Tim above, there's no cost to believing who and what you want to believe. Credibility is in the eye of the beholder.

With an attitude like that why even have a justice system? I mean, seriously. It sounds like someone who has given up.Every witness needs to be evaluated and have their credibility tested. We know for certain that many of the black witnesses in this case gave accounts that were in direct conflict with the physical evidence. We also know that many black witnesses faced pressure from other black witnesses at the scene, and the black community at large, to provide testimony that was damming to the white police officer. Yet despite this pressure, here we have witness 10, who is black, give a very detailed eyewitness account, from relatively close range, that matches the physical evidence and100% backs Officer Wilson's account.

Ince again, please give me one good reason why this witness is not trustworthy. Why would this man lie? And why does the evidence just so happen to corroborate everything he says?

If you want to just simply say that any witness can be explained away, then there's no point in arguing this anymore. I do believe that there are a LOT more people like this in the Brown camp than in the Wilson camp. It's like the OJ case all over again. It's not about justice. It's about satisfying the black side's thirst for revenge. That's all it is.

There was never any point in arguing it in the first place. It's a ridiculous, fruitless endeavor to think you can find some unassailable truth. It's just a distraction from the much larger and more important issues.

Also ... "the black side's thirst for revenge"? Wow. That's awful. Maybe take a deep breath and sit out the next few plays.

Sorry for the hardcore rhetoric, but I'm getting frustrated... Lots of accusations back at me, and a few misdirections as well, but no real substantive discourse on my questions about Witness #10.The simple fact is - the evidence in this case overwhelmingly supports the Grand Jury's ultimate finding that a crime was not committed by Officer Wilson. Period. End of story.

We can misdirect all we want. We can complain about the process. But that doesn't change the evidence. We can complain about the history of racism in this country. But that doesn't mean Wilson acted inappropriately. We can complain about the over-aggressive use of force by police in general - but that doesn't mean an injustice was done in this particular case.

I said it before and I'll say it again - right church, wrong pew. As Martin Luther King said, "an injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere". Officer Wilson was absolutely screwed here. It's just as wrong as the injustices that occurred in the Jim Crow South with the lynchings. And most of the Brown protesters know this deep down, and if they don't, then they simply haven't looked at the evidence.

I'm sorry if this hurts my black brothers and sisters out there. I've fought many many battles alongside you and will continue to do so in the future. But I will not fight this battle. It's just wrong. Plain and simple. And it's nothing but a distraction from the real issues facing us. You have fallen into a trap my friends.

Great post and one of the reasons why I asked for an assessment of where we stand with respect to the events that transpired from the time Wilson left the prior call till Brown was shot dead. Many people are now using this shooting as a jumping point to many different arguments about social justice, justice system, etc. Those are important discussions and debates to have...but, where does that leave us with the final assessment of Wilson and Brown and how they behaved that fateful day?

Witness 10, though not 100% accurate almost mirrors Wilson's testimony. Wilson's testimony, though I have some qualms with it, basically mirrors the physical evidence. At this point in time, the only person in this thread who has questioned whether or not Wilson should have shot brown and hung their hat on a specific aspect of these events, is Tim at this point. I know others have speculated or questioned Wilson's actions, but now that we see all the evidence that has been released, where do the rest of you who believe Wilson should not have shot Brown stand?

What is the evidence or fact(s) that trouble you?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Some of you don't agree with McCullough passing his duties off to the Grand Jury, but can you imagine the outrage if he just simply did his job and said, "we don't have enough to get a prosecution" and left it at that....

 

[tom22406]

Obama Calls For Turret-Mounted Video Cameras On All Police Tanks

Dec 3, 2014

WASHINGTON—In an effort to restore the public’s faith in law enforcement, President Obama made an impassioned appeal this week, calling for the installation of turret-mounted video cameras on all police tanks. “This initiative will ensure that police officers across the country will be held accountable for their actions as they pour out of an 18-ton combat vehicle in response to a routine call,” said Obama, who announced a detailed plan to allocate funding to equip every single armored personnel carrier, landmine-resistant SWAT van, and battle-ready half-track with an onboard camcorder to monitor police conduct. “If the police are forced to discharge a high-caliber, vehicle-mounted weapon in the line of duty, we’ll know why. Furthermore, this policy will discourage the misuse of shell-proof tanks in our communities.” The president added that he is hopeful that turret-mounted video cameras would help to reestablish trust between officers equipped with military-grade technology and the populations they are sworn to protect.http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-calls-for-turretmounted-video-cameras-on-all,37586/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1efault

 

[Zow]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but I don't see how the body cameras are to blame.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Some of you don't agree with McCullough passing his duties off to the Grand Jury, but can you imagine the outrage if he just simply did his job and said, "we don't have enough to get a prosecution" and left it at that....

I believe he took an oath to fairly and impartially administer the laws and to protect and uphold the constitution regardless of the hardships, including negative press. If the job was easy anybody could do it.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Meanwhile, it happened again:

@NY1 22m22 minutes ago

Sources: Staten Island grand jury decides not to indict officer in #EricGarner Case. Tune to NY1 for the latest.

If you're not familiar with the Eric Garner case, you should check it out. I have a hard time understanding the failure to indict here, much more so than in the Brown case. Curious to hear the explanation from the DA.

Joan Walsh ‏@joanwalsh · 5m5 minutes ago

This may be the worst: We watched Eric Garner die of an illegal chokehold. Coroner calls it homicide. No indictment. Heartbreaking.

Nothing illegal about that to be technical. It is taught in police academy.

Still no indictment is hard to believe.

Except it's banned by the NYPD

Not to take the thread off track, but the "choke hold" was brief and not in place when the victim started saying he can't breathe. The guy seemed like he could have been reasoned with though.

 

[Zow]

Obama Calls For Turret-Mounted Video Cameras On All Police Tanks

Dec 3, 2014

WASHINGTON—In an effort to restore the public’s faith in law enforcement, President Obama made an impassioned appeal this week, calling for the installation of turret-mounted video cameras on all police tanks. “This initiative will ensure that police officers across the country will be held accountable for their actions as they pour out of an 18-ton combat vehicle in response to a routine call,” said Obama, who announced a detailed plan to allocate funding to equip every single armored personnel carrier, landmine-resistant SWAT van, and battle-ready half-track with an onboard camcorder to monitor police conduct. “If the police are forced to discharge a high-caliber, vehicle-mounted weapon in the line of duty, we’ll know why. Furthermore, this policy will discourage the misuse of shell-proof tanks in our communities.” The president added that he is hopeful that turret-mounted video cameras would help to reestablish trust between officers equipped with military-grade technology and the populations they are sworn to protect.http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-calls-for-turretmounted-video-cameras-on-all,37586/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1efault

:sigh:

I wish this were mere sarcasm. But in my state that could be a real article.

 

[Yenrub]

After 200 plus pages, I am not even sure what the major areas of debate or disagreement are at this point. So much terrain has been covered.

Separating the discussion into the different quadrants and focusing specifically on the day in question from the point that Wilson left the prior call and came across Brown in the street and until Brown was fatally shot in the street, what are we disputing and what is in question at this point?

2. I don't think anyone is any longer arguing or speculating that Wilson shot Brown in the back or shot at him as he was fleeing, correct? Does everyone now agree that Brown was shot at the vehicle in the hand and ran away from the vehicle before stopping and turning around with just a wound to the hand?

[SIZE=10.5pt]We can be sure that Brown wasn’t hit while fleeing but I don’t know if we can be sure he wasn’t shot at while fleeing. Forgive me if I have missed it but do we know if all of Wilson’s shots hit Brown? Did another witness corroborate Wilson’s testimony that he did not shoot at Brown while he ran away?[/SIZE]

 

[TobiasFunke]

Some of you don't agree with McCullough passing his duties off to the Grand Jury, but can you imagine the outrage if he just simply did his job and said, "we don't have enough to get a prosecution" and left it at that....

There are plenty of options besides those two- starting with McCulloch recusing himself, which as I said earlier today many activists and members of the community demanded months ago.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Some of you don't agree with McCullough passing his duties off to the Grand Jury, but can you imagine the outrage if he just simply did his job and said, "we don't have enough to get a prosecution" and left it at that....

I believe he took an oath to fairly and impartially administer the laws and to protect and uphold the constitution regardless of the hardships, including negative press. If the job was easy anybody could do it.

I agree, but I think he was pandering to the community, hoping to settle the dust...so much for that.

 

[shadyridr]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but I don't see how the body cameras are to blame.

lolz

The point I was making was, this whole incident was recorded on a cell phone for the whole world to see and that STILL wasn't enough indict. How will body cameras help?

 

[Bucky86]

After 200 plus pages, I am not even sure what the major areas of debate or disagreement are at this point. So much terrain has been covered.

Separating the discussion into the different quadrants and focusing specifically on the day in question from the point that Wilson left the prior call and came across Brown in the street and until Brown was fatally shot in the street, what are we disputing and what is in question at this point?

2. I don't think anyone is any longer arguing or speculating that Wilson shot Brown in the back or shot at him as he was fleeing, correct? Does everyone now agree that Brown was shot at the vehicle in the hand and ran away from the vehicle before stopping and turning around with just a wound to the hand?

[SIZE=10.5pt]We can be sure that Brown wasn’t hit while fleeing but I don’t know if we can be sure he wasn’t shot at while fleeing. Forgive me if I have missed it but do we know if all of Wilson’s shots hit Brown? Did another witness corroborate Wilson’s testimony that he did not shoot at Brown while he ran away?[/SIZE]

We know he was shot at least 6 times. The gun holds 13 bullets I believe.

 

[shadyridr]

Meanwhile, it happened again:

@NY1 22m22 minutes ago

Sources: Staten Island grand jury decides not to indict officer in #EricGarner Case. Tune to NY1 for the latest.

If you're not familiar with the Eric Garner case, you should check it out. I have a hard time understanding the failure to indict here, much more so than in the Brown case. Curious to hear the explanation from the DA.

Joan Walsh ‏@joanwalsh · 5m5 minutes ago

This may be the worst: We watched Eric Garner die of an illegal chokehold. Coroner calls it homicide. No indictment. Heartbreaking.

Nothing illegal about that to be technical. It is taught in police academy.

Still no indictment is hard to believe.

Except it's banned by the NYPD

Not to take the thread off track, but the "choke hold" was brief and not in place when the victim started saying he can't breathe. The guy seemed like he could have been reasoned with though.

That's not what the coroner ruled

 

[shadyridr]

Meanwhile, five protesters are stationed outside state Supreme Court

 

[General Tso]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

Meanwhile, it happened again:

@NY1 22m22 minutes ago

Sources: Staten Island grand jury decides not to indict officer in #EricGarner Case. Tune to NY1 for the latest.

If you're not familiar with the Eric Garner case, you should check it out. I have a hard time understanding the failure to indict here, much more so than in the Brown case. Curious to hear the explanation from the DA.

Joan Walsh ‏@joanwalsh · 5m5 minutes ago

This may be the worst: We watched Eric Garner die of an illegal chokehold. Coroner calls it homicide. No indictment. Heartbreaking.

Nothing illegal about that to be technical. It is taught in police academy.

Still no indictment is hard to believe.

Except it's banned by the NYPD

Not to take the thread off track, but the "choke hold" was brief and not in place when the victim started saying he can't breathe. The guy seemed like he could have been reasoned with though.

That's not what the coroner ruled

My guess is the 200 extra pounds he was carrying didn't help either.

 

[SIDA!]

After 200 plus pages, I am not even sure what the major areas of debate or disagreement are at this point. So much terrain has been covered.

Separating the discussion into the different quadrants and focusing specifically on the day in question from the point that Wilson left the prior call and came across Brown in the street and until Brown was fatally shot in the street, what are we disputing and what is in question at this point?

2. I don't think anyone is any longer arguing or speculating that Wilson shot Brown in the back or shot at him as he was fleeing, correct? Does everyone now agree that Brown was shot at the vehicle in the hand and ran away from the vehicle before stopping and turning around with just a wound to the hand?

[SIZE=10.5pt]We can be sure that Brown wasn’t hit while fleeing but I don’t know if we can be sure he wasn’t shot at while fleeing. Forgive me if I have missed it but do we know if all of Wilson’s shots hit Brown? Did another witness corroborate Wilson’s testimony that he did not shoot at Brown while he ran away?[/SIZE]

There were witnesses that testified that Wilson shot at a fleeing Brown. That is my understanding.

However, it is also my understanding that two shell casings were found at the vehicle and the rest were found in a group near Browns body, presumably from the two volleys. To my knowledge, and someone please correct me if I am wrong, there were no shell casings found at some midpoint between the vehicle and where the final shots were fired by Wilson.

 

[johnnycakes]

So, what's the story with these grand juries not coming back with indictments? Is a prosecutor supposed to bring something to a grand jury he doesn't think is worthy of indictment? Does a prosecutor have to argue in favor of indictment in a grand jury hearing? I have heard, and from what I've seen, getting a grand jury indictment should be little more than a formality... no cross-examination of witnesses, no defense allowed... basically a one-sided operation. It would seem to me any time something goes to a grand jury and no indictment comes back, it's not so much that there wasn't evidence as the prosecutor really didn't try very hard. And I'm a white guy. if that's true, I can see why the minority communities in MO, NY & elsewhere may be outraged... is my perception accurate or not, lawyer types?

 

[squistion]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but I don't see how the body cameras are to blame.

lolzThe point I was making was, this whole incident was recorded on a cell phone for the whole world to see and that STILL wasn't enough indict. How will body cameras help?

They would have to help in some cases, unless you believe that in all instances in which a grand jury will be presented with video evidence, they will disregard it and move not to indict the officer. I doubt that will happen and don't believe that the idea of body cameras should be scrapped just because of what appears to be a bad result in this case.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Had to remove an informative link as it had my contact info imbedded in it.

 

[Zow]

So much for body cameras solving this problem

Was about to say the same exact thing.

I don't know the specifics of the case, but I don't see how the body cameras are to blame.

lolz

The point I was making was, this whole incident was recorded on a cell phone for the whole world to see and that STILL wasn't enough indict. How will body cameras help?

It'll at least reduce the rate that they occur. Also possibly open the law enforcement agency up to a civil suit. Speaking from experience the latter is quite effective.

 

[timschochet]

Zow, regarding civil suits, there was a question about this earlier: can you sue both the individual cop and the police force? Does the individual cop have personal liability?

 

[TobiasFunke]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

 

[timschochet]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who might have singlehandledly destroyed the OJ Simpson prosecution by expressing racist thoughts in a book, moved to Idaho and has made a very good living analyzing racially charged cases on shows like Hannity, in which he inevitably takes the most extreme conservative position after "deep analysis of the facts."

 

[johnnycakes]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who might have singlehandledly destroyed the OJ Simpson prosecution by expressing racist thoughts in a book, moved to Idaho and has made a very good living analyzing racially charged cases on shows like Hannity, in which he inevitably takes the most extreme conservative position after "deep analysis of the facts."

Now there's proof one can be a scumbag without ever having been convicted of a crime.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Zow, regarding civil suits, there was a question about this earlier: can you sue both the individual cop and the police force? Does the individual cop have personal liability?

Cops have "qualified immunity." What that means is that Wilson can only be liable under the Civil Rights statute if he clearly knew he was denying Michael Brown his constitutional rights. That's going to be hard to prove considering the grand jury's action.

Municipal liability would have to be predicated on something more than this shooting. Some type of pattern or custom of similar events.

 

[timschochet]

Zow, regarding civil suits, there was a question about this earlier: can you sue both the individual cop and the police force? Does the individual cop have personal liability?

Cops have "qualified immunity." What that means is that Wilson can only be liable under the Civil Rights statute if he clearly knew he was denying Michael Brown his constitutional rights. That's going to be hard to prove considering the grand jury's action.

Municipal liability would have to be predicated on something more than this shooting. Some type of pattern or custom of similar events.

Thx. I didn't know this.

 

[njherdfan]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who might have singlehandledly destroyed the OJ Simpson prosecution by expressing racist thoughts in a book, moved to Idaho and has made a very good living analyzing racially charged cases on shows like Hannity, in which he inevitably takes the most extreme conservative position after "deep analysis of the facts."

Now there's proof one can be a scumbag without ever having been convicted of a crime.

Actually, he was the only person who was convicted for anything in the whole O.J. case. He got convicted for perjury.

 

[squistion]

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who might have singlehandledly destroyed the OJ Simpson prosecution by expressing racist thoughts in a book, moved to Idaho and has made a very good living analyzing racially charged cases on shows like Hannity, in which he inevitably takes the most extreme conservative position after "deep analysis of the facts."

Was just about to bring up Fuhrman. Best thing that ever happened to him was committing perjury in the O.J. trial when proof of his racism surfaced after he claimed he had never used the "N" word, etc. He has made a lot of money off of it - many conservatives and Fox News still love him.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Which part do you think I can't back up? Did I get the number of shots wrong? If so I apologize. The rest seems pretty well established, though. Other than the parts that I clearly stated were just things I suspect, which are, you know, just things I suspect.

 

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

I'd say having to change careers, move and possibly change your name is essentially "ruining" your life.

And I've not followed this all too closely, but was Wilson not responding to a robbery? I don't think he was just looking for some black kids to pick on. And put himself in a defenseless position? Most police officers have a reasonable expectation that they won't be assaulted by people on a busy street and yet, Brown did not get the best of him, so it appears his position was, in fact, defensible.

I have a feeling the whole thing was quite a shock and while you can judge his reaction to the situation in hindsight, the fact that this escalated beyond a normal police/civilian altercation is 100% on Brown by him reaching into the car. After that happened, all expectations of normal reactions and cooler heads prevailing should be thrown out the window.

Wilson was put in a very tough spot by Brown, not the other way around....so yes, he does deserve some sympathy for the situation. He was there to protect the law abiding citizens, putting his life in danger every day. The fact that you don't empathize with the difficulty of his situation is revealing to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Spend some time talking to law enforcement about what it feels like to walk streets, make traffic stops, raid a drug house, etc. The vast majority are very nervous and scared in those situations. It is one of the most difficult parts of the job and why a lot of people can't or won't do it.

In short, yes his life has been ruined and no it wasn't his fault and yes a lot of it is because of racial tension that he likely had nothing to do with. He is indeed a victim of the vigilante mob in that he will have to live in hiding for the foreseeable future for simply being in uniform and engaging the wrong guy and reacting to that guy's crazy behavior.

 

[Aerial Assault]

Todem hit a fundamental flaw in the system, one that I've mentioned before- the people tasked with prosecuting police are their allies. It's becoming clearer every day that some sort of fundamental change is needed.

Do any states have something like a state-level Internal Affairs division to which all local police departments are formally accountable? Maybe complete with its own team of prosecutors and investigators.

Not usually, no, unless there's a state-level equivalent to the FBI; then there can be a hierarchy like you suggest. I think Georgia works that way. But the state police typically work with local jurisdictions, not in an oversight role with respect to their actions.

 

[whiskey7]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

 

[Aerial Assault]

Some of you don't agree with McCullough passing his duties off to the Grand Jury, but can you imagine the outrage if he just simply did his job and said, "we don't have enough to get a prosecution" and left it at that....

There are plenty of options besides those two- starting with McCulloch recusing himself, which as I said earlier today many activists and members of the community demanded months ago.

Many people seem, curiously, to be totally unfamiliar with the concept of special prosecutors. Which is odd, since I'm fairly sure a lot of RWNJs championed Ken Starr's ludicrous circus.

 

[Jackstraw]

Obama Calls For Turret-Mounted Video Cameras On All Police Tanks

Dec 3, 2014

WASHINGTON—In an effort to restore the public’s faith in law enforcement, President Obama made an impassioned appeal this week, calling for the installation of turret-mounted video cameras on all police tanks. “This initiative will ensure that police officers across the country will be held accountable for their actions as they pour out of an 18-ton combat vehicle in response to a routine call,” said Obama, who announced a detailed plan to allocate funding to equip every single armored personnel carrier, landmine-resistant SWAT van, and battle-ready half-track with an onboard camcorder to monitor police conduct. “If the police are forced to discharge a high-caliber, vehicle-mounted weapon in the line of duty, we’ll know why. Furthermore, this policy will discourage the misuse of shell-proof tanks in our communities.” The president added that he is hopeful that turret-mounted video cameras would help to reestablish trust between officers equipped with military-grade technology and the populations they are sworn to protect.http://www.theonion.com/articles/obama-calls-for-turretmounted-video-cameras-on-all,37586/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=LinkPreview:1efault

:sigh:I wish this were mere sarcasm. But in my state that could be a real article.

Agreed on your point. It's satire tho not sarcasm.