Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (3 Viewers)

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

 

[Sweet J]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Go ahead and rebut if you want. Sounds like Tobias gave a pretty good summary.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason

Your post is all types of wrong, I'll highlight this to begin...

Had Mike Brown not just committed a strong arm robbery? This is a yes/no question.

 

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Go ahead and rebut if you want. Sounds like Tobias gave a pretty good summary.

While his summary may be accurate, his conclusions are garbage and biased.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

I didn't say that he's suffered no negative repercussions, only that saying he was "a man who's life has been ruined" is overselling it by quite a bit. I know he's received death threats and has been subject to a lot of other negative consequences, but there's a long way from that to a ruined life. He will move on and very possibly proper, likely in complete safety and relative anonymity.

I thought I'd read that the street was empty. Maybe not? Either way, at the time they were minding their own business by all accounts at the time of the initial contact, jaywalking at worst.

Fair enough, possible that there was no reason to attempt to resuscitate Brown. The rest stands, though- including the tone-deaf statement about "the hardest thing he's ever had to do," putting himself in position t be apprehended and beaten with no way to fight back or extricate himself (I didn't say he wasn't, I only said it was a mistake to put himself in such a position) and the fact that he had to discharge his weapon at least 10 times in order to alleviate a perceived threat.

ETA: You and others seem to think I'm blaming Wilson for the incident over Brown. I'm not doing that at all. I'm questioning why I'm supposed to feel as sorry for him as I feel for blacks lynched in the Jim Crow south, or frankly why I'm supposed to feel all that sorry for him at all.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Zow, regarding civil suits, there was a question about this earlier: can you sue both the individual cop and the police force? Does the individual cop have personal liability?

Cops have "qualified immunity." What that means is that Wilson can only be liable under the Civil Rights statute if he clearly knew he was denying Michael Brown his constitutional rights. That's going to be hard to prove considering the grand jury's action.

Municipal liability would have to be predicated on something more than this shooting. Some type of pattern or custom of similar events.

Thx. I didn't know this.

Sure you did. I explained exactly this several pages back.

 

[lod01]

I didn't say that he's suffered no negative repercussions, only that saying he was "a man who's life has been ruined" is overselling it by quite a bit. I know he's received death threats and has been subject to a lot of other negative consequences, but there's a long way from that to a ruined life.

I thought I'd read that the street was empty. Maybe not? Either way, at the time they were minding their own business by all accounts at the time of the initial contact, jaywalking at worst.

Fair enough, possible that there was no reason to attempt to resuscitate Brown. The rest stands, though- including the tone-deaf statement about "the hardest thing he's ever had to do," putting himself in position t be apprehended and beaten with no way to fight back or extricate himself (I didn't say he wasn't, I only said it was a mistake to put himself in such a position) and the fact that he had to discharge his weapon at least 10 times in order to alleviate a perceived threat.

..........Because acts of stealing, that happen earlier in the day, do not count.

 

[Sweet J]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Mark Fuhrman, the cop who might have singlehandledly destroyed the OJ Simpson prosecution by expressing racist thoughts in a book, moved to Idaho and has made a very good living analyzing racially charged cases on shows like Hannity, in which he inevitably takes the most extreme conservative position after "deep analysis of the facts."

I have always found his employment as some sort of an expert to be an obscenity.

 

[Sweet J]

I didn't say that he's suffered no negative repercussions, only that saying he was "a man who's life has been ruined" is overselling it by quite a bit. I know he's received death threats and has been subject to a lot of other negative consequences, but there's a long way from that to a ruined life.

I thought I'd read that the street was empty. Maybe not? Either way, at the time they were minding their own business by all accounts at the time of the initial contact, jaywalking at worst.

Fair enough, possible that there was no reason to attempt to resuscitate Brown. The rest stands, though- including the tone-deaf statement about "the hardest thing he's ever had to do," putting himself in position t be apprehended and beaten with no way to fight back or extricate himself (I didn't say he wasn't, I only said it was a mistake to put himself in such a position) and the fact that he had to discharge his weapon at least 10 times in order to alleviate a perceived threat.

..........Because acts of stealing, that happen earlier in the day, do not count.

That's not why Wilson stopped him.

 

[General Tso]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

 

[parasaurolophus]

jon, you bring up an interesting point. I'm not going to get into a debate with you as to which of the two cases, Brown or Zimmerman, had more damaging evidence. But of course beyond the specific details, the most crucial major difference in the two cases was that Wilson is a police officer and Zimmerman was a private citizen. Had Zimmerman been a police officer, would the prosecutors in Florida have still indicted him? If Wilson had been a private citizen, would this prosecutor still have left it up to a grand jury in the same manner? (Assuming all other facts are the same.) I don't know the answer, but it's an intriguing pair of questions...

The reason it matters that Zimmerman wasn't a police officer goes to issue of motive. The argument is that it is not a private citizen's job to track a person, whether they think they are a criminal or not. Therefore Zimmerman is interjecting himself into a situation as opposed to doing his job. There is zero question as to why a police officer would follow somebody that looked suspicious(to them). It is their job. They are supposed to do so. Why a private citizen would do it is a much greyer issue.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Bingo. Thank you.

Amazing how people immediately feel the need to turn everything into one side vs another, as if by condemning some aspects of Wilson's behavior I'm calling him a murderer and Brown an innocent victim.

I didn't try to argue that Brown did nothing wrong, or say that Wilson deserved death threats. I just pointed out that he kind of did a crappy job that day, and then he kind of acted like an insensitive dooshbag afterwards. And that on a racial injustice scale, such a man being villified and wrongly accused for a while before moving on to live his life (and quite possibly to profit from the incident) probably doesn't rise to the level of lynchings in the Jim Crow South. Not sure how that's really controversial.

 

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Key phrases are "appears to me" and "if he honestly believes".

It is pretty clear I was speculating there. Sure, my interpretation could be off, but from the tone of Tobias' post, I DO think I am on to something.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason

Your post is all types of wrong, I'll highlight this to begin...

Had Mike Brown not just committed a strong arm robbery? This is a yes/no question.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Key phrases are "appears to me" and "if he honestly believes".

It is pretty clear I was speculating there. Sure, my interpretation could be off, but from the tone of Tobias' post, I DO think I am on to something.

You were way, way, way off.

 

[Jayrod]

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Bingo. Thank you.

Amazing how people immediately feel the need to turn everything into one side vs another, as if by condemning some aspects of Wilson's behavior I'm calling him a murderer and Brown an innocent victim.

I didn't try to argue that Brown did nothing wrong, or say that Wilson deserved death threats. I just pointed out that he kind of did a crappy job that day, and then he kind of acted like an insensitive dooshbag afterwards. And that on a racial injustice scale, such a man being villified and wrongly accused for a while before moving on to live his life (and quite possibly to profit from the incident) probably doesn't rise to the level of lynchings in the Jim Crow South. Not sure how that's really controversial.

The bolded statements are 100% subjective opinions and several of us think it is BS.

Stop crying. You are putting your opinion out there and are getting the backlash you deserve.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I find it hard to believe that the people in this thread criticizing the prosecutor for taking this to grand jury would not be the same people criticizing him if he didn't take it to grand jury. Perhaps I am wrong, but I highly doubt it.

I am not sure how one would research this, but I bet a higher percentage of high profile cases go to grand jury than just regular ones. Nobody wants to be the fall guy and be the only one receiving death threats(other than the suspect).

 

[Todd Andrews]

And while few of us would think to ridicule Jews for still harboring less than warm feelings for Germans some 70 years laterwe would understand the lack of trust, the wariness, even the angerwe apparently find it hard to understand the same historically embedded logic of black trepidation and contempt for law enforcement in this country.

I don't know any Jews that harbor resentment towards Germans.

Boy, I do.

Kids and young adults too? I cant think of a single instance I have ever heard anything like that. Not even jokingly.

I wont buy some makes of German cars because they were Hitler mobiles. A lot of people still hate both Germans and Germany because of WWII and the holocaust, and many are not Jewish.

You hate Germany? How old are you?

Yes and 45. Some of my family were killed in the Holocaust. Should I not hate Germany?

You are free to hate whomever or whatever you want. Most everybody associated with the Third Reich is dead and gone though. I lost relatives in the Pacific Theatre, but I don't hate the Japanese or refuse to buy their products.

Those countries are a long way from what they were in the 40's. It seems rather pointless to hate people who had nothing to do with a 70-year old war.

Thank you for the comment.

 

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Sure he had a role. As did Brown. Is it completely out of the realm of possibility to think maybe this is a good man who ended up in a very difficult situation and now will have to live with the fact that he took someone's life? You realize he has (and continues) to receive death threats, don't you? Wilson may be haunted by one or both of those things for the remainder of his days. Perhaps rightly so. Perhaps not. What if he is telling the truth that he did truly fear for his life and did what he needed to do?

Couple other thoughts...

-based on what I read (and know of head shots), it would have been pretty clear saving the life was not an option at that point

-you mention "empty street" yet IIRC multiple witnesses interviewed were reportedly in vehicles which suggests there was traffic

-were they really minding their own business after committing forceful robbery?

-couldn't someone look at what you say here: "for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself" as the definition of being attacked?

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Key phrases are "appears to me" and "if he honestly believes".

It is pretty clear I was speculating there. Sure, my interpretation could be off, but from the tone of Tobias' post, I DO think I am on to something.

You were way, way, way off.

"Way, way off" maybe.....but no way am I "way, way, way off". That's just ludicrous.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Bingo. Thank you.

Amazing how people immediately feel the need to turn everything into one side vs another, as if by condemning some aspects of Wilson's behavior I'm calling him a murderer and Brown an innocent victim.

I didn't try to argue that Brown did nothing wrong, or say that Wilson deserved death threats. I just pointed out that he kind of did a crappy job that day, and then he kind of acted like an insensitive dooshbag afterwards. And that on a racial injustice scale, such a man being villified and wrongly accused for a while before moving on to live his life (and quite possibly to profit from the incident) probably doesn't rise to the level of lynchings in the Jim Crow South. Not sure how that's really controversial.

The bolded statements are 100% subjective opinions and several of us think it is BS.

Stop crying. You are putting your opinion out there and are getting the backlash you deserve.

Crying?

I'm happy to defend my opinions, which I stand by. I'm also clarifying it when people try to pin things on me I didn't say, like when you asked whether I "honestly believed it was all Wilson's fault" when I'd said nothing remotely close to that. Not sure why you consider that crying.

I have to go home soon, which means I won't be posting. I assure you, my absence is not because I'm crying in the corner.

 

[TobiasFunke]

It appears to me that Tobias has some serious personal issues with police if he honestly believes the situation was all Wilson's fault and that he is somehow fine or better off for it.

Tobias didn't say it was "all Wilson's fault." And he didn't say he was "fine or better off for it." Nor, I suspect, does Tobias have "personal issues with police." Other than that, I think you are on to something.

Key phrases are "appears to me" and "if he honestly believes".

It is pretty clear I was speculating there. Sure, my interpretation could be off, but from the tone of Tobias' post, I DO think I am on to something.

You were way, way, way off.

"Way, way off" maybe.....but no way am I "way, way, way off". That's just ludicrous.

Way, way off works for me. Glad we could settle this

 

[Christo]

Witness #10

Witness #10

Witness #10

Can someone - anyone - dispute his testimony as truth? If so, I'd like to hear what his motive is for lying.

The whole case hinges on this man.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2014/12/01/witness-10-proves-darren-wilson-had-a-reasonable-belief-he-needed-to-shoot/

The very account you posted acknowledges that at least 16 of the 29 witnesses dispute his testimony as the truth.

Witness 10 might very well be the most credible witness. But the testimony of one witness out of 29 doesn't "prove" anything, even if its consistent with the forensic evidence. Particularly when the standard is probable cause and not guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Well, if his eyewitness testimony is consistent with the forensic evidence it disproves the eyewitness testimony of those who's testimony is not consistent with the forensic evidence. And that is very important proof whether the standard being applied is probable cause or beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

[timschochet]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

Since you addressed this to both of us, let me first say that I am speaking for myself, not Tobias.

You make a lot of assumptions here about Officer Wilson's innocence in this matter that I'm not willing to make. I won't go back to the details again, we've been through all that, but suffice to say I don't see eye to eye with you on this. That being said, I do feel great sympathy for Officer Wilson, I have posted that several times in this thread and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I think he committed a wrongful act, but it was a split second decision and I understand why he did it. If you recall, I also expressed great outrage when Wilson's address was reported by the New York Times- a terrible terrible act IMO.

I brought up the Mark Furhman example because Tobias was discussing how sometimes police accused of racial bias can make good afterwards, and Fuhrman is possibly the best example of that. But I did not anywhere in that post or elsewhere write that I had no sympathy for Wilson. Tobias did; I have no criticism whatsoever of his opinion, but I don't share it. Despite that, in any argument between him and you on this matter, I'm likely to take Tobias' side because you have filled your arguments with unwarranted assumptions which you seem to regard as fact, and he has not done this.

Finally, it was good of you to apologize earlier for making the lynching comparison. It is shameful of you, IMO, to retract the apology. But only you can decide how offensive you wish to be.

 

[fantasycurse42]

Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason

Your post is all types of wrong, I'll highlight this to begin...

Had Mike Brown not just committed a strong arm robbery? This is a yes/no question.

Always entertained when someone who is blatantly wrong ignores you

 

[timschochet]

I find it hard to believe that the people in this thread criticizing the prosecutor for taking this to grand jury would not be the same people criticizing him if he didn't take it to grand jury. Perhaps I am wrong, but I highly doubt it.

I am not sure how one would research this, but I bet a higher percentage of high profile cases go to grand jury than just regular ones. Nobody wants to be the fall guy and be the only one receiving death threats(other than the suspect).

I have been one of the biggest critics of taking this case to the grand jury, and I guarantee you that had the prosecutor made the unilateral decision not to indict Wilson, I would not have criticized him. In fact, I would have defended it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

Since you addressed this to both of us, let me first say that I am speaking for myself, not Tobias.

You make a lot of assumptions here about Officer Wilson's innocence in this matter that I'm not willing to make. I won't go back to the details again, we've been through all that, but suffice to say I don't see eye to eye with you on this. That being said, I do feel great sympathy for Officer Wilson, I have posted that several times in this thread and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I think he committed a wrongful act, but it was a split second decision and I understand why he did it. If you recall, I also expressed great outrage when Wilson's address was reported by the New York Times- a terrible terrible act IMO.

I brought up the Mark Furhman example because Tobias was discussing how sometimes police accused of racial bias can make good afterwards, and Fuhrman is possibly the best example of that. But I did not anywhere in that post or elsewhere write that I had no sympathy for Wilson. Tobias did; I have no criticism whatsoever of his opinion, but I don't share it. Despite that, in any argument between him and you on this matter, I'm likely to take Tobias' side because you have filled your arguments with unwarranted assumptions which you seem to regard as fact, and he has not done this.

Finally, it was good of you to apologize earlier for making the lynching comparison. It is shameful of you, IMO, to retract the apology. But only you can decide how offensive you wish to be.

I actually have some sympathy for him. I do think he did a crappy job, that he acted like an insensitive dooshbag after the grand jury decision, and that his life won't be "ruined" by a long shot. But assuming the shooting truly was justified, I do feel a little bad for him. Not much, because as I said I don't find him to be a particularly sympathetic figure for many reasons. But a little. I shouldn't have suggested that I had zero sympathy.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

I'd say having to change careers, move and possibly change your name is essentially "ruining" your life.

And I've not followed this all too closely, but was Wilson not responding to a robbery? I don't think he was just looking for some black kids to pick on. And put himself in a defenseless position? Most police officers have a reasonable expectation that they won't be assaulted by people on a busy street and yet, Brown did not get the best of him, so it appears his position was, in fact, defensible.

I have a feeling the whole thing was quite a shock and while you can judge his reaction to the situation in hindsight, the fact that this escalated beyond a normal police/civilian altercation is 100% on Brown by him reaching into the car. After that happened, all expectations of normal reactions and cooler heads prevailing should be thrown out the window.

Wilson was put in a very tough spot by Brown, not the other way around....so yes, he does deserve some sympathy for the situation. He was there to protect the law abiding citizens, putting his life in danger every day. The fact that you don't empathize with the difficulty of his situation is revealing to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Spend some time talking to law enforcement about what it feels like to walk streets, make traffic stops, raid a drug house, etc. The vast majority are very nervous and scared in those situations. It is one of the most difficult parts of the job and why a lot of people can't or won't do it.

In short, yes his life has been ruined and no it wasn't his fault and yes a lot of it is because of racial tension that he likely had nothing to do with. He is indeed a victim of the vigilante mob in that he will have to live in hiding for the foreseeable future for simply being in uniform and engaging the wrong guy and reacting to that guy's crazy behavior.

With regard to the bold, there was testimony that Wilson backed his car up right next to Brown, hit him with the car door which slammed shut, and then grabbed him through the window. There is a lot of potential blame to go around in how this was handled by Brown and Wilson. It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem.

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Not to take the thread off track, but the "choke hold" was brief and not in place when the victim started saying he can't breathe. The guy seemed like he could have been reasoned with though.

I think this is key. But, then, again, so is the whole "illegal chokehold" thing.

 

[Jackstraw]

Does New York not train its officers in CPR? The part that blows me away is they literally stand around and watch the guy die.

 

[tdoss]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

 

[General Tso]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

Since you addressed this to both of us, let me first say that I am speaking for myself, not Tobias. You make a lot of assumptions here about Officer Wilson's innocence in this matter that I'm not willing to make. I won't go back to the details again, we've been through all that, but suffice to say I don't see eye to eye with you on this. That being said, I do feel great sympathy for Officer Wilson, I have posted that several times in this thread and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I think he committed a wrongful act, but it was a split second decision and I understand why he did it. If you recall, I also expressed great outrage when Wilson's address was reported by the New York Times- a terrible terrible act IMO.

I brought up the Mark Furhman example because Tobias was discussing how sometimes police accused of racial bias can make good afterwards, and Fuhrman is possibly the best example of that. But I did not anywhere in that post or elsewhere write that I had no sympathy for Wilson. Tobias did; I have no criticism whatsoever of his opinion, but I don't share it. Despite that, in any argument between him and you on this matter, I'm likely to take Tobias' side because you have filled your arguments with unwarranted assumptions which you seem to regard as fact, and he has not done this.

Finally, it was good of you to apologize earlier for making the lynching comparison. It is shameful of you, IMO, to retract the apology. But only you can decide how offensive you wish to be.

I actually have some sympathy for him. I do think he did a crappy job, that he acted like an insensitive dooshbag after the grand jury decision, and that his life won't be "ruined" by a long shot. But assuming the shooting truly was justified, I do feel a little bad for him. Not much, because as I said I don't find him to be a particularly sympathetic figure for many reasons. But a little. I shouldn't have suggested that I had zero sympathy.

I have a little bit of sympathy for Rubin Carter. Not a lot. Just a little bit. Kinda sucks he was imprisoned for a crime he didn't commit, but hey - he was acting like a douchbag that day and he was carrying a firearm in his car. He also didn't express a lot of sympathy for the family of the murdered victim. He got a bad break, but was his life ruined? I think not. The guy got a movie made after him and he became a celebrity.Do you see how ridiculous this all sounds? Dude - that is how you sound right now to an awful lot of people - the overwhelming majority of whom are good people who see past color. You really do need to check yourself. I'm telling you this as someone who is extremely committed to the cause of racial equality.

 

[Jayrod]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

I'd say having to change careers, move and possibly change your name is essentially "ruining" your life.

And I've not followed this all too closely, but was Wilson not responding to a robbery? I don't think he was just looking for some black kids to pick on. And put himself in a defenseless position? Most police officers have a reasonable expectation that they won't be assaulted by people on a busy street and yet, Brown did not get the best of him, so it appears his position was, in fact, defensible.

I have a feeling the whole thing was quite a shock and while you can judge his reaction to the situation in hindsight, the fact that this escalated beyond a normal police/civilian altercation is 100% on Brown by him reaching into the car. After that happened, all expectations of normal reactions and cooler heads prevailing should be thrown out the window.

Wilson was put in a very tough spot by Brown, not the other way around....so yes, he does deserve some sympathy for the situation. He was there to protect the law abiding citizens, putting his life in danger every day. The fact that you don't empathize with the difficulty of his situation is revealing to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Spend some time talking to law enforcement about what it feels like to walk streets, make traffic stops, raid a drug house, etc. The vast majority are very nervous and scared in those situations. It is one of the most difficult parts of the job and why a lot of people can't or won't do it.

In short, yes his life has been ruined and no it wasn't his fault and yes a lot of it is because of racial tension that he likely had nothing to do with. He is indeed a victim of the vigilante mob in that he will have to live in hiding for the foreseeable future for simply being in uniform and engaging the wrong guy and reacting to that guy's crazy behavior.

With regard to the bold, there was testimony that Wilson backed his car up right next to Brown, hit him with the car door which slammed shut, and then grabbed him through the window. There is a lot of potential blame to go around in how this was handled by Brown and Wilson. It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem.

Do you honestly think Wilson pulled a 300lb man into his car somehow? There was also testimony that Wilson shot Brown in the back which was completely false.

Brown had just robbed a store and then AFTER getting shot came toward the officer. That is not normal, rational behavior. Blaming Wilson for how this went down just seems crazy to me. Its like the fat slob sitting on his couch mad at how the all-world athletes perform their jobs on TV. Unless you've ever been in that situation, you have nothing relevant to say about how it was handled.

I've never been a cop, but I have been pulled over, questioned and interrogated by police. Not once did it escalate to violence of any kind. So while I don't know what I'd do if I was Wilson, I sure as hell know what I'd do if I was Brown which is pretty much the polar opposite of what we know he did do.

 

[Yo Mama]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

You know who did get indicted? The person who filmed the incident on their phone.

 

[johnnycakes]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

I agree with all that... the result is death, and imo it was not a legal death.. intentional or not, this was not an "instantaneous" event based upon officer reflexes like the Ferguson shooting... this choking/heart attack/whatever took some time to occur... and the perp was also unarmed. I can understand the outrage that no indictment came because the old saying "a grand jury can indict a ham sandwich" is pretty much true from what I understand of the grand jury process... prosecutor must not have been trying very hard, imo, and that is where the outrage comes from.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

WSJ Analysis: Justifiable Homicides by U.S. Law Enforcement

A Wall Street Journal analysis of data from 105 of the largest police agencies in the country found more than 550 police killings between 2007 and 2012 were missing from the FBI’s records or, in a few dozen cases, not attributed to the agency whose officers were involved.

The result: It is nearly impossible to determine how many people are killed by police each year.

 

[Bucky86]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

You know who did get indicted? The person who filmed the incident on their phone.

Seriously?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

I'd say having to change careers, move and possibly change your name is essentially "ruining" your life.

And I've not followed this all too closely, but was Wilson not responding to a robbery? I don't think he was just looking for some black kids to pick on. And put himself in a defenseless position? Most police officers have a reasonable expectation that they won't be assaulted by people on a busy street and yet, Brown did not get the best of him, so it appears his position was, in fact, defensible.

I have a feeling the whole thing was quite a shock and while you can judge his reaction to the situation in hindsight, the fact that this escalated beyond a normal police/civilian altercation is 100% on Brown by him reaching into the car. After that happened, all expectations of normal reactions and cooler heads prevailing should be thrown out the window.

Wilson was put in a very tough spot by Brown, not the other way around....so yes, he does deserve some sympathy for the situation. He was there to protect the law abiding citizens, putting his life in danger every day. The fact that you don't empathize with the difficulty of his situation is revealing to the fact that you have no idea what you are talking about. Spend some time talking to law enforcement about what it feels like to walk streets, make traffic stops, raid a drug house, etc. The vast majority are very nervous and scared in those situations. It is one of the most difficult parts of the job and why a lot of people can't or won't do it.

In short, yes his life has been ruined and no it wasn't his fault and yes a lot of it is because of racial tension that he likely had nothing to do with. He is indeed a victim of the vigilante mob in that he will have to live in hiding for the foreseeable future for simply being in uniform and engaging the wrong guy and reacting to that guy's crazy behavior.

With regard to the bold, there was testimony that Wilson backed his car up right next to Brown, hit him with the car door which slammed shut, and then grabbed him through the window. There is a lot of potential blame to go around in how this was handled by Brown and Wilson. It is not as cut and dry as you make it seem.

Do you honestly think Wilson pulled a 300lb man into his car somehow? There was also testimony that Wilson shot Brown in the back which was completely false.

Brown had just robbed a store and then AFTER getting shot came toward the officer. That is not normal, rational behavior. Blaming Wilson for how this went down just seems crazy to me. Its like the fat slob sitting on his couch mad at how the all-world athletes perform their jobs on TV. Unless you've ever been in that situation, you have nothing relevant to say about how it was handled.

I've never been a cop, but I have been pulled over, questioned and interrogated by police. Not once did it escalate to violence of any kind. So while I don't know what I'd do if I was Wilson, I sure as hell know what I'd do if I was Brown which is pretty much the polar opposite of what we know he did do.

That's because it is.

 

[BassNBrew]

The last five pages of Baitman fishing and Andrews being scared of the Germans were quite interesting.

 

[General Tso]

So, we are currently left at an impasse of sorts. Let's advance this discussion. The following will be a little long. Anyone/everyone is free to correct any facts I may have wrong and offer up any feedback.

...

11. Wilson testified and to our knowledge had never fired his weapon during his five year career which was spent patrolling predominantly black neighborhoods. He had never received any complaints or allegations of abuse, excessive use of force. He also testified to using non lethal force in previous incidents. Clearly, this isn't a guy looking to gun down a black kid and he clearly opted to use non lethal force in previous incidents.

If anyone wants to engage in some serious dialogue on this post, I would welcome it. At this point in time, I really have nothing more to say unless someone wants to offer up some alternative scenarios/contrary facts to what I just presented.

This one is false. Here's video footage of Wilson telling someone that he's going to "lock their ### up" for taking a video of him- something that people clearly have a right to do under the Constitution (and, Constitution aside, because accountability is a good thing). He then subsequently did just that. He also fabricated a charge about a violation of laws related to pit bulls even though the guy just had a bulldog, which makes him either a dishonest cop or the dumbest man in America. Anyway, arresting someone because they tried to record you is a pretty sleazy thing for a cop to do.

By the way, when asked about the video the Ferguson PD straight-up lied about it being Wilson on the recording. Combine that with the long delay in naming him in an otherwise disastrous and evasive press conference, the scrubbing of any record of Wilson's existence from social media and God knows what else during the period between the incident and the press conference, and the Ferguson PD arresting and tear-gassing media during their crackdown on the protests, and you start to get a sense of why the community maybe doesn't trust the narrative of the incident that you've presented.

Tobias:I agree that that is a pretty sleazy thing to do. I hate when cops pull the "you can't film me" card. With that said, I was specifically referencing any allegations that Wilson may have had a propensity to tune people up from time to time. We all know that there are officers with heavy hands that will use force at the slightest provocation even if they know it is not necessary, but can be justified.

As far as the community not trusting the narrative of the incident, I totally get why some people would be skeptical. I think it is fair for minority communities to be skeptical because I believe without any reservation that incidents of misconduct by police officers happen often. I am not a "law and order" white male Republican who thinks cops are saints and the rest of us "had it coming". Though I can't prove it, I believe Wilson rolled up on Brown and didn't exactly ask Brown to politely get out of the street, pretty please with a cherry on top. And I believe the notion that he felt the next punch to the face could have been fatal or that he felt like a 5 year old in the grips of Hulk Hogan. In fairness, he added that the next punch could have knocked him out and then who knows if Brown would have killed him (I do agree with this). However, I think these are unnecessary, perhaps coached statements, to justify the shooting and I don't believe he even needed to add those to his testimony.

I don't care how big you are, if a suspect is 6'5" and nearly 300 pounds hitting you in the face and close enough so that when you do manage to fire a shot the suspects DNA/body matter is on you and the interior of the vehicle, it is a justified shooting.

It is okay to distrust the narrative or to be skeptical. In fact, we should all be somewhat skeptical whenever a member of the state takes the life of a citizen. But, there is nothing that I can see from the forensics, physical evidence, etc. that really opens a window to a different scenario. Your rebuttal to my comment centered primarily on a rebuttal of my statements made outside the events that transpired...my character defense of Wilson, if you will.

Did you disagree or have any qualms with any other aspect of my post?

Nope. I haven't really done a detailed review of the forensics and I'm not really qualified to interpret the information anyway. I'm trying to stay out of that part of it.

Ok, so now it all makes sense. You have not, nor will you, examine the evidence. How can you actually admit to that and still post in this thread with such strong opinions? You are a racist my friend.

 

[Ketamine Dreams]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

Since you addressed this to both of us, let me first say that I am speaking for myself, not Tobias.

You make a lot of assumptions here about Officer Wilson's innocence in this matter that I'm not willing to make. I won't go back to the details again, we've been through all that, but suffice to say I don't see eye to eye with you on this. That being said, I do feel great sympathy for Officer Wilson, I have posted that several times in this thread and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I think he committed a wrongful act, but it was a split second decision and I understand why he did it. If you recall, I also expressed great outrage when Wilson's address was reported by the New York Times- a terrible terrible act IMO.

I brought up the Mark Furhman example because Tobias was discussing how sometimes police accused of racial bias can make good afterwards, and Fuhrman is possibly the best example of that. But I did not anywhere in that post or elsewhere write that I had no sympathy for Wilson. Tobias did; I have no criticism whatsoever of his opinion, but I don't share it. Despite that, in any argument between him and you on this matter, I'm likely to take Tobias' side because you have filled your arguments with unwarranted assumptions which you seem to regard as fact, and he has not done this.

Finally, it was good of you to apologize earlier for making the lynching comparison. It is shameful of you, IMO, to retract the apology. But only you can decide how offensive you wish to be.

I actually have some sympathy for him. I do think he did a crappy job, that he acted like an insensitive dooshbag after the grand jury decision, and that his life won't be "ruined" by a long shot. But assuming the shooting truly was justified, I do feel a little bad for him. Not much, because as I said I don't find him to be a particularly sympathetic figure for many reasons. But a little. I shouldn't have suggested that I had zero sympathy.

That is progress. Look, I sincerely doubt that Wilson will go and make millions from this incident. I think that assuming he will go for a money grab is really a terribly narrow and misguided way to look at it. And, is his life "ruined"? Well, it's certainly not changed for the better. He had to run off into hiding. He had to sell his house, and will be in constant fear for his life. Now, we may disagree on whether the shooting was justified or not, (I believe it was 100% justified), but his life is absolutely worse for the wear. And, IMO, all for doing what he was supposed to do. Additionally I would add that he will forever live with the fact that he had to kill another human being. (I believe there was no alternative.) And, I know you probably don't believe this, but that may literally haunt him forever. I live with someone who has PTSD, and have taken care of people who have it, and I really don't wish that on anyone. Again, I'm sure you'll downplay that, but people are forever changed by going through these types of things.

You place a lot of blame on him for the outcome. Poor excuse for a cop? Really? Other than some dispute when he served that warrant, which seems to be overblown and a weak attempt to smear his reputation, he had a fine record. He had never fired his gun previously. Again, why don't you place blame on Brown and his cohort in crime? Were they minding their own business when Brown strong-armed robbed the convenience store? Aimlessly wandering down the street? Seriously? As for Wilson's confrontation with Brown, I'm not the least bit surprised he fired that many times. Not at all. Two shots in the car. 10 more to take down a charging hostile threat isn't unusual. You know how hard it is to hit someone with a pistol, even at close range, when they're charging you? It can be impossible. People don't really understand this. Adrenaline is flowing, the gun kicks, he's getting closer, you keep shooting, and is not easy. It's been found to happen over and over and over in the heat of battle whether involving law enforcement or in the military.

And made no effort to save Brown? The killing shot was to the top of the head and into the jaw. Brown was instantly killed with that shot and would have had brain matter leaking out. Absolutely 100% dead. There's no reviving that. Are you serious?

He did mention concern for the family in his statement: “I think those are grieving parents who are mourning the loss of their son. I don’t think there’s anything I could say, but again I’m sorry that their son lost their life," The rest of his statements were reiterating that he did his job, and thus had a clear conscience. Reasonable. No one would like what he said no matter what, but i agree with how he handled it.

His resigning was hard because he believes he did his job. Again, reasonable. I agree that he did, and was forced into a terrible situation where he had to use lethal force. Also, I'm sure it's hard because he wants to continue to be a police officer, but because of the misguided and misinformed mob mentality, he won't be able to, though, again IMO he did his job.

 

[shadyridr]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

You know who did get indicted? The person who filmed the incident on their phone.

Seriously?

yes for something else. Also his wife. I wonder if the cops were following his every move for payback.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I've read some reviews of the forensic evidence. What the forensic evidence rebuts is that Brown was shot in the back.

Almost every additional gloss that I've heard, that it proves that Brown reached for the gun, that it proves that Brown "charged" is stated far, far too assertively. The evidence is not inconsistent with those things. Brown was certainly near to Wilson when the shot that hit his thumb was fired, but that does not prove that he reached for the gun or even that he was assaulting Wilson considering that Johnson testified that Wilson pulled Brown toward the window.

Nor does the fact that Brown collapsed closer to Wilson than the furthest blood evidence or that the bullets had downward trajectories prove that Brown charged Wilson. When I read the stuff that the guy on the Volokh Conspiracy is posting, I'm struck by how often he's interpreting the evidence instead of just presenting the evidence.

All of us have biases. Me included. I probably tend to hold police officers to high standards because I think being entrusted by the public to use deadly force is an awesome responsibility not to be taken lightly. I'd pay police a lot more. I'd support their unions. But I think that self-defense claims should be subject to at least as much scrutiny as every other criminal defendant faces. I don't think that happened here. And I don't think the evidence that force was justified, which was probably sufficient to establish reasonable doubt, was anything close to overwhelming.

 

[General Tso]

Very unwise to compare to Wilson's treatment to the lynchings that victimized black Americans during the Jim Crow area. Any other argument you might have been trying to make is destroyed by making that analogy, which I believe most blacks would rightfully find extremely offensive.

Agreed that part was...not so hot. The rest was good though.

My fire-brand Liberal roots shining through I guess. I knew full well the impact of that sentence and said it anyways. It was meant to be jarring. Trying desperately to wake people up.My sincere apologies if it was over the top. But no apology for defending a man who's life has been ruined at the hands of racism. I'll fight that #### passionately till the day I die.

Wake people up to what?

I think you're severely overselling the bolded. I suspect one of two things will happen with Wilson going forward: (1) he'll choose to live in virtual anonymity, maybe after a move and a name change, maybe not; or (2) he'll go on the conservative talk circuit and make millions. Either way I don't think I'd say his life was "ruined." Furthermore, it's silly to pretend he had no role in his fate. At best he was a poor excuse for a cop who rolled up on two kids walking down an empty street minding their own business for no particular reason, for some reason put himself in a vulnerable, defenseless position that allowed one of the kids to punch him repeatedly with no means to extricate himself (perhaps by just moving his vehicle a few feet?), needed twelve shots to remove a perceived threat to his safety, and then made no effort to save the life of the person he'd just shot. That's at best, assuming his own narrative is 100% true.

And then, after the grand jury decision was announced, he issued a statement that expressed no concern whatsoever for the family that had suffered a loss of life, and then subsequently described his resignation as "the hardest thing I've ever had to do," which is perhaps the most tone-deaf statement in this saga that's been a crash course on tone-deafness.

I'm supposed to feel bad for this guy? Really?

Seriously, just stop. You are projecting your own bias and misinterpretation of Wilson and the events with nothing to back it up. Clueless.

Yeah, at this point I take back that bit about apologizing for my incendiary comment. With guys like this - they need to be hit over the head to get it.Tobias and Tim - if you guys really can't see the tragedy of Officer Wilson here - then what can I say? I feel pretty badly for you. The analogy to Mark Furman is just dumb on top of stupid mixed in with a whole lot of idiocy. Mark Furman wasn't accused of murder. Mark Furman was a proven racist, and deserved every bit of scorn he received. Officer Wilson is a simple man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time, and did his job. Mike Brown was the aggressor here. You can think otherwise if you want, but you are just deluding yourself. Badly.

It's unbelievable that you can't even see the potential tragedy of a man wrongfully accused. I have been in that position, and I can assure you it's the darkest, loneliest place on earth. It robs you of everything - To the point where in my case it robbed me of my belief in God. And then there's the ethereal stuff... Officer Wilson is basically resigned to living incognito, for at least the foreseeable future and barring any further publications of his whereabouts by the New York Times and others. He will be looking over his shoulder the rest of his life. His career and his profession are both finished. Millions of people hate him and I bet tens of thousands would love to see him dead. And that doesn't bother you in the slightest. Tells me a lot about the type of people you are.

In some respects seeing Liberals act this way is the greatest tragedy of this whole sordid mess. The ends don't justify the means my friends.

Since you addressed this to both of us, let me first say that I am speaking for myself, not Tobias. You make a lot of assumptions here about Officer Wilson's innocence in this matter that I'm not willing to make. I won't go back to the details again, we've been through all that, but suffice to say I don't see eye to eye with you on this. That being said, I do feel great sympathy for Officer Wilson, I have posted that several times in this thread and I challenge you to prove otherwise. I think he committed a wrongful act, but it was a split second decision and I understand why he did it. If you recall, I also expressed great outrage when Wilson's address was reported by the New York Times- a terrible terrible act IMO.

I brought up the Mark Furhman example because Tobias was discussing how sometimes police accused of racial bias can make good afterwards, and Fuhrman is possibly the best example of that. But I did not anywhere in that post or elsewhere write that I had no sympathy for Wilson. Tobias did; I have no criticism whatsoever of his opinion, but I don't share it. Despite that, in any argument between him and you on this matter, I'm likely to take Tobias' side because you have filled your arguments with unwarranted assumptions which you seem to regard as fact, and he has not done this.

Finally, it was good of you to apologize earlier for making the lynching comparison. It is shameful of you, IMO, to retract the apology. But only you can decide how offensive you wish to be.

Oh please. You really feel for Officer Wilson, eh? See post 10228 and see how you responded to that trail of messages. When the topic of conversation is how Officer Wilson's life has been ruined, and someone basically responds by saying he doesn't care, you respond by pointing out that Mark Furman lived happily ever after? Sometimes it's not what you say, it's what you choose to respond to.It wouldn't bother me if you weren't so damn hypocritical about it. You were the first person to voice outrage at my drawing an analogy to the black lynchings. Oh, and by the way, in that instance you were very much indeed speaking for others, which you should know is a bit demeaning though probably well intentioned.

 

[General Tso]

I've read some reviews of the forensic evidence. What the forensic evidence rebuts is that Brown was shot in the back.

Almost every additional gloss that I've heard, that it proves that Brown reached for the gun, that it proves that Brown "charged" is stated far, far too assertively. The evidence is not inconsistent with those things. Brown was certainly near to Wilson when the shot that hit his thumb was fired, but that does not prove that he reached for the gun or even that he was assaulting Wilson considering that Johnson testified that Wilson pulled Brown toward the window.

Everyone acknowledges there was a scuffle in the car, even the Brown camp. It's universally agreed upon that Brown threw punches at Wilson. The ballistics evidence shows that Browns hand was 6-9 inches away from Wilson's gun, and the trajectory of the bullets fired inside the car shows that the gun was fired close to the officer's lap. Is it your contention tat Wilson pulled Brown's hand into a position 6 inches from his gun that was fired at his hip?It's incredible to see the lengths people will go to to not see what obviously happened. It's like the OJ trial all over again.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I've read some reviews of the forensic evidence. What the forensic evidence rebuts is that Brown was shot in the back.

Almost every additional gloss that I've heard, that it proves that Brown reached for the gun, that it proves that Brown "charged" is stated far, far too assertively. The evidence is not inconsistent with those things. Brown was certainly near to Wilson when the shot that hit his thumb was fired, but that does not prove that he reached for the gun or even that he was assaulting Wilson considering that Johnson testified that Wilson pulled Brown toward the window.

Everyone acknowledges there was a scuffle in the car, even the Brown camp. It's universally agreed upon that Brown threw punches at Wilson. The ballistics evidence shows that Browns hand was 6-9 inches away from Wilson's gun, and the trajectory of the bullets fired inside the car shows that the gun was fired close to the officer's lap. Is it your contention tat Wilson pulled Brown's hand into a position 6 inches from his gun that was fired at his hip?It's incredible to see the lengths people will go to to not see what obviously happened. It's like the OJ trial all over again.

I don't have a contention. I wasn't there.

I've read the transcripts. I do think that people like you, who really want to make this about black racism, find the evidence far more one-sided than I do. I also find that in most cases, those people have read what other people have said about the evidence as opposed to reading the transcripts for themselves.

 

[General Tso]

I'm passionate about this, but not because of the racism angle. Because of the tragedy of seeing a man wrongfully accused. I also can't see how a reasonable person can view all the evidence and not conclude the exact same as the Grand Jury.

But I will acknowledge that I wasn't there.

 

[rdog5]

Some people in this thread know law enforcement folks personally. Some others work with law enforcement during the course of their jobs.

Would any of you happen to be able to take a stab at this question:

Do a significant number of police officers feel that, in their heart of hearts, it is absolutely necessary to be able to sometimes break the law to most effectively uphold the law? That if they did everything by the book 100% of the time, a personally (to the police) unacceptable number of criminals would consistently game the system and slip through the cracks?

The answer from my 20 years experience in a Department that consists of several thousand officers is no. I have never seen an officer break a law, excluding traffic offenses, where they did not pay the price for it. Go ahead an jump on traffic offenses if you want as so many will but model citizens speed or roll through a stop sign and it just isn't feasible to expect everybody to be perfect at all times.

I will say I have seen occasions where policy was broken for the better good in the end. I have seen officers come across people hard on their luck and work out an agreement with the store owner and thief and not document the report as a theft to as not cause any problems. Just being honest here and I have been in many situations where the greater good is better served than the path to get there but I would never violate laws or rights to get there.

 

[Todd Andrews]

I can't understand this Garner thing...can someone explain it to me?

The cop used an illegal action that results in this guy's death.

How is that not worthy of indictment?

How do you get passed the illegality of the cop's actions?

Even if intent wasn't to choke...it's still manslaughter, right?

We all see him use the illegal maneuver...how does anyone explain that away?

You know who did get indicted? The person who filmed the incident on their phone.

Proves prosecutors get indictments when they want them.

 

[General Tso]

Some people in this thread know law enforcement folks personally. Some others work with law enforcement during the course of their jobs.

Would any of you happen to be able to take a stab at this question:

Do a significant number of police officers feel that, in their heart of hearts, it is absolutely necessary to be able to sometimes break the law to most effectively uphold the law? That if they did everything by the book 100% of the time, a personally (to the police) unacceptable number of criminals would consistently game the system and slip through the cracks?

The answer from my 20 years experience in a Department that consists of several thousand officers is no. I have never seen an officer break a law, excluding traffic offenses, where they did not pay the price for it. Go ahead an jump on traffic offenses if you want as so many will but model citizens speed or roll through a stop sign and it just isn't feasible to expect everybody to be perfect at all times.I will say I have seen occasions where policy was broken for the better good in the end. I have seen officers come across people hard on their luck and work out an agreement with the store owner and thief and not document the report as a theft to as not cause any problems. Just being honest here and I have been in many situations where the greater good is better served than the path to get there but I would never violate laws or rights to get there.

Appreciate the insight. Another question if I may... How many bad apple officers have you seen over the years? Guys who would be rougher than is necessary, or perhaps even guys who would target certain races? Just curious.