Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (4 Viewers)

[CurlyNight]

I don't know where the protestors get their energy...If I kept going like that I would have a hard time getting up and going to work the next day.

Ya, I somehow don't think those dudes out until midnight or later have a job...

 

[Sinn Fein]

I'm curious as to what some of you think the purpose of 911 actually is.

Operator: "911, whats your emergency?"

Is shoplifting, or even petty theft, an "emergency"?

I imagine most minimarts/convenience stores deal with shoplifters on a regular basis. Surprisingly, police departments have non-emergency numbers to call if you want to report a crime.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

He is probably victim to that petty theft a lot and didn't think it was a big deal. Hence, he didn't call 911. Whomever did over reacted. The police didn't care either until they connected the dots of the proximity of the location and the description of the guy. Then they got a warrant and the video for pure PR. Police aren't normally getting a warrant to view a video for stolen swisher sweets and a guy getting pushed without injuries or even falling down.

It's overreacting to call the cops when your pizza isn't delievered on time. It's not overreacting to call the cops after witnessing blatant theft and a store proprietor being manhandled by a much larger guy.

If people simply allowed such instances to occur because calling the police would be overreating then more of those instances would occur and the area would quickly devolve into a craphole.

A box of cigars and a push is a 911 emergency? If the person who owns the store and/or was pushed doesn't call, then it is probably not a big deal. Regardless, the larger point was/is that no police force is getting a warrant for that surveillance video to conduct an investigation into such an incident. It was only after they realized who could have been on that video that it was seeked out and then released to purely shift the focus from the police themselves. People focusing on this incident are just grasping for some way to place blame on the dead black guy who wasn't a perfect person. So what? He deserved shot 6 times and left in the street for 4+ hours. You guys are ridiculous.

Or people just want to be accurate and reasonable about what occurred at the mini-mart, and want to rebut the assertions being forwarded that the theft never occurred or that it's unreasonable to call the police over a theft.

What happened at the mini-mart is wholly independent of whether Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, that we can agree on.

So let's put the murder aside and talk about a possible shoplifting case.

Look back a couple pages, Sparky. I woke up to two pages of people disecting the mini-mart incident like it was the Zapruder film, and I was just addressing incorrect or bizarre assertions found in those two pages of posts on the the topic. You're like the nincompoop pro wrestling referee who misses all the action right behind his back only to finally turnaround and hold the guy responding accountable.

 

[Doug B]

Ya, I somehow don't think those dudes out until midnight or later have a job.

They were actually AT their "job", if you think about it.

 

[msommer]

There's a lot we don't know about the killing, but there's a lot we do know.

Total BS.

"Are you tracking with me? Beyond zero eyewitnesses saying that he ran full speed at the fully armed officer, facts show he didn't."

Ok, right. Just make #### up buddy. Totally ignore the best eyewitness account. The one immediately after the incident. What a pile of #### this loser is.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2727321/Conversation-recorded-bystander-just-moments-Michael-Brown-shooting-casts-doubt-claims-teen-surrendered-Officer-Darren-Wilson.html

Instead of Brown being fired on while his hands were raised in surrender, the witness claims that Brown was moving towards the officer when he was shot.

While this version of events does not match most of the eyewitness accounts, it does seem to tally up in a small part with the account of what occurred given by a friend of Wilson.

A scratchy audio somehow transcribed by a conservative blog and then reported by a British tabloid. That's pretty much the definition of scraping the bottom of the barrel.

moving towards is also different from bum rushing.

In fact how far do the 'bum rushers' think he moved before turning and attacking. Because by all accounts Brown was about ten yards from the police car when he was dead

 

[Fat Nick]

I don't know where the protestors get their energy...If I kept going like that I would have a hard time getting up and going to work the next day.

Best post in the whole thread IMO.

 

[Fat Nick]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

 

[Todem]

Todem, the answers to your questions are 'we don't know'

Wow.....no wonder there is civil unrest. But my goodness why can't it be peaceful protest. Why do these vampires have to do this crap. It's unreal.

When can we expect a full repost on the circumstances surrounding this. When a kid get's shot 6 times you better have a full detailed account of WTF happened. I gotta believe the kid really had to have done something pretty stupid to end up dead. Assumptions being made are not helping anyone. Both sides.

Tell me more about these assumptions.

The rioters are assuming a young man was murdered, in cold blood while trying to surrender to the officer in question. Based on one supposed eye witness? So assumptions are being made on the guilt of the police officer.

Fair to say that?

 

[KCitons]

I'm curious as to what some of you think the purpose of 911 actually is.

Operator: "911, whats your emergency?"

Is shoplifting, or even petty theft, an "emergency"?

I imagine most minimarts/convenience stores deal with shoplifters on a regular basis. Surprisingly, police departments have non-emergency numbers to call if you want to report a crime.

We always call 911 for shoplifters. A non-emergency number would make sense. Not sure if it's the same everywhere, but here in Omaha, when you call 911, the first thing they ask is "is this a Police, or Fire Emergency?"

 

[CurlyNight]

Ya, I somehow don't think those dudes out until midnight or later have a job.

They were actually AT their "job", if you think about it.

 

[Apple Jack]

He is probably victim to that petty theft a lot and didn't think it was a big deal. Hence, he didn't call 911. Whomever did over reacted. The police didn't care either until they connected the dots of the proximity of the location and the description of the guy. Then they got a warrant and the video for pure PR. Police aren't normally getting a warrant to view a video for stolen swisher sweets and a guy getting pushed without injuries or even falling down.

It's overreacting to call the cops when your pizza isn't delievered on time. It's not overreacting to call the cops after witnessing blatant theft and a store proprietor being manhandled by a much larger guy.

If people simply allowed such instances to occur because calling the police would be overreating then more of those instances would occur and the area would quickly devolve into a craphole.

A box of cigars and a push is a 911 emergency? If the person who owns the store and/or was pushed doesn't call, then it is probably not a big deal. Regardless, the larger point was/is that no police force is getting a warrant for that surveillance video to conduct an investigation into such an incident. It was only after they realized who could have been on that video that it was seeked out and then released to purely shift the focus from the police themselves. People focusing on this incident are just grasping for some way to place blame on the dead black guy who wasn't a perfect person. So what? He deserved shot 6 times and left in the street for 4+ hours. You guys are ridiculous.

Or people just want to be accurate and reasonable about what occurred at the mini-mart, and want to rebut the assertions being forwarded that the theft never occurred or that it's unreasonable to call the police over a theft.

What happened at the mini-mart is wholly independent of whether Wilson was justified in shooting Brown, that we can agree on.

So let's put the murder aside and talk about a possible shoplifting case.

Look back a couple pages, Sparky. I woke up to two pages of people disecting the mini-mart incident like it was the Zapruder film, and I was just addressing incorrect or bizarre assertions found in those two pages of posts on the the topic. You're like the nincompoop pro wrestling referee who misses all the action right behind his back only to finally turnaround and hold the guy responding accountable.

No way I'm looking back a couple pages. I wasn't necessarily singling you out so much as just trying to get to the real heart of the matter at hand - a possible shoplifting incident.

 

[[icon]]

I don't know where the protestors get their energy...If I kept going like that I would have a hard time getting up and going to work the next day.

Best post in the whole thread IMO.

 

[[icon]]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

 

[Fat Nick]

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in warfare, but it can be used against American citizens who are exercising their Constitutional right to peacefully assemble. Neat-o.

Why would you not be "allowed" to use tear gas in a war? If I was a soldier, I would much rather be tear gassed than shot.

The root of this is from WWI. Trench warfare lead to thousands of miles of entrenched stalemate positions across Europe. As long as you stayed in your trench, you were basically immoveable. If you came out of your trench, you were basically mowed down. Various gasses were used to "encourage" soldiers to vacate their trenches. In some cases, tear gas was used to make them run out, then they were shot. In later/other cases, they just used poison gas to kill soldiers directly.

So in short - Gas doesn't kill you...it makes you leave your cover so you can then be shot. No military would use tear gas to "disperse crowds" like it's used in civil unrest. It's really not a fair comparison as the use is completely different.

 

[BigJohn]

Jake Tapper gets it

"There is no threat going on here ... none ... that merits this"

At that point, sure. An hour later, it was absolutely necessary.

FWIW, I am fine with the guys on the ground in gear with batons and non-lethals. I do, however have a problem with the enormous military vehicles with mounted turrets on top.

And this is the problem, as it has been for over a week. The police have been responsible for the escalation of tensions every step of the way. They treat people like animals and Ferguson like a war zone well before it is necessary to do so.

Let me ask you this, do you believe that there would be no more rioting/looting, if the police were not present? You truly believe that all protests would be peaceful and there would be fewer incidents?

And, I was watching live last night. The police were in completely defensive positions until bottles and other items were thrown at them. At that point, they reacted with tear gas and flash bombs. The police did not escalate the situation. If you think their mere presence was enough escalation, then we will agree to disagree.

I think the presence of the police has saved numerous businesses , private property and lives.

I believe that if there would have been rioting and looting for one night and that things subsequently would have quieted down were it not for the many missteps of law enforcement that I detailed here.

And yes, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about their mere presence (in riot gear and fatigues, with weapons drawn and pointed at peaceful citizens, rolling around in MRAPs) was sufficient to escalate the situation. Of course that's not all they did- they also tear gassed lawful protests, barred media and video, and arrested people (including journalists) who had not committed a crime.

There are a few things we can agree on.

First, the Ferguson department has absolutely dropped this from the start. Absolute disaster in all facets of everything they are supposed to be trained to do. The county hasn't been much better.

The militarization of the MHP is teetering on the line of too far, and in a few cases has definitely crossed the line. IMO, the color of their clothing should be completely irrelevant, however, the direct closeness in appearance to military uniforms really scares people, and understandably so. The MRAP's are completely unnecessary, and should not be used. The equipment is definitely suited to keep these guys safe, and I am 100% in support of that. But again, it's a problem of perception. Mounted turrets on these things is WAY over the line and should be illegal, and not utilized at all.

All that being said, to surmise that if there were no police presence, no fear of repercussions, that these people would simply stop looting on their own is absolutely and completely ridiculous. Also, let me make the point that I understand that reports have been that a majority of the looters are agitators not from Ferguson, who are coming simply to incite and loot. I understand that the majority of people that are present are trying to hold peaceful protests. That is awesome and i support that 100%. It is definitely unfortunate for them that these outside people come in and cause problems that need to be dealt with and the innocents get caught in the middle. But they need to be dealt with. I see no reason why peaceful protesting cannot be done during the day, and people simply go home at night. There just isn't any reason that this couldn't happen. I'm not suggesting a curfew, just hoping the peaceful protesters could do it on their own.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Todem, the answers to your questions are 'we don't know'

Wow.....no wonder there is civil unrest. But my goodness why can't it be peaceful protest. Why do these vampires have to do this crap. It's unreal.

When can we expect a full repost on the circumstances surrounding this. When a kid get's shot 6 times you better have a full detailed account of WTF happened. I gotta believe the kid really had to have done something pretty stupid to end up dead. Assumptions being made are not helping anyone. Both sides.

Tell me more about these assumptions.

The rioters are assuming a young man was murdered, in cold blood while trying to surrender to the officer in question. based on one supposed eye witness. So assumptions are being made on the guilt of the police officer.

Fair to say that?

No. Some rioters may assume that, but others (most?) are demanding answers and accountability, not revenge.

 

[BigJohn]

I'm curious as to what some of you think the purpose of 911 actually is.

Operator: "911, whats your emergency?"

Is shoplifting, or even petty theft, an "emergency"?

I imagine most minimarts/convenience stores deal with shoplifters on a regular basis. Surprisingly, police departments have non-emergency numbers to call if you want to report a crime.

Assault is.

 

[msommer]

And because no situation is too serious for a good laugh:

Water cannons

The reaction of the black co-anchor is perfect

Teargas and water cannons should be in the playbook long, long before rubber bullets, assault rifles and MRAPs

 

[Todem]

Todem, the answers to your questions are 'we don't know'

Wow.....no wonder there is civil unrest. But my goodness why can't it be peaceful protest. Why do these vampires have to do this crap. It's unreal.

When can we expect a full repost on the circumstances surrounding this. When a kid get's shot 6 times you better have a full detailed account of WTF happened. I gotta believe the kid really had to have done something pretty stupid to end up dead. Assumptions being made are not helping anyone. Both sides.

Tell me more about these assumptions.

The rioters are assuming a young man was murdered, in cold blood while trying to surrender to the officer in question. based on one supposed eye witness. So assumptions are being made on the guilt of the police officer.

Fair to say that?

No. Some rioters may assume that, but others (most?) are demanding answers and accountability, not revenge.

Ok.

I am talking about the wonderful network known as CNN who seems to be focusing on the violent protests not the peaceful ones.

I totally want to know what happened. Just like everyone else. I hate seeing kids being shot and killed if it could have been prevented.

 

[ArbyMelt]

There's a lot we don't know about the killing, but there's a lot we do know.

"Facts" ... Holy crap, let's take a step back and let things play out with real evidence with the grand jury and a possible trial. This guy has the case solved, just indict the cop now.

 

[Fat Nick]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

You can probably google "list of US cities with highest African American population" and get a list of what cities will be next.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Jake Tapper gets it

"There is no threat going on here ... none ... that merits this"

At that point, sure. An hour later, it was absolutely necessary.

FWIW, I am fine with the guys on the ground in gear with batons and non-lethals. I do, however have a problem with the enormous military vehicles with mounted turrets on top.

And this is the problem, as it has been for over a week. The police have been responsible for the escalation of tensions every step of the way. They treat people like animals and Ferguson like a war zone well before it is necessary to do so.

Let me ask you this, do you believe that there would be no more rioting/looting, if the police were not present? You truly believe that all protests would be peaceful and there would be fewer incidents?

And, I was watching live last night. The police were in completely defensive positions until bottles and other items were thrown at them. At that point, they reacted with tear gas and flash bombs. The police did not escalate the situation. If you think their mere presence was enough escalation, then we will agree to disagree.

I think the presence of the police has saved numerous businesses , private property and lives.

I believe that if there would have been rioting and looting for one night and that things subsequently would have quieted down were it not for the many missteps of law enforcement that I detailed here.

And yes, I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree about their mere presence (in riot gear and fatigues, with weapons drawn and pointed at peaceful citizens, rolling around in MRAPs) was sufficient to escalate the situation. Of course that's not all they did- they also tear gassed lawful protests, barred media and video, and arrested people (including journalists) who had not committed a crime.

There are a few things we can agree on.

First, the Ferguson department has absolutely dropped this from the start. Absolute disaster in all facets of everything they are supposed to be trained to do. The county hasn't been much better.

The militarization of the MHP is teetering on the line of too far, and in a few cases has definitely crossed the line. IMO, the color of their clothing should be completely irrelevant, however, the direct closeness in appearance to military uniforms really scares people, and understandably so. The MRAP's are completely unnecessary, and should not be used. The equipment is definitely suited to keep these guys safe, and I am 100% in support of that. But again, it's a problem of perception. Mounted turrets on these things is WAY over the line and should be illegal, and not utilized at all.

All that being said, to surmise that if there were no police presence, no fear of repercussions, that these people would simply stop looting on their own is absolutely and completely ridiculous. Also, let me make the point that I understand that reports have been that a majority of the looters are agitators not from Ferguson, who are coming simply to incite and loot. I understand that the majority of people that are present are trying to hold peaceful protests. That is awesome and i support that 100%. It is definitely unfortunate for them that these outside people come in and cause problems that need to be dealt with and the innocents get caught in the middle. But they need to be dealt with. I see no reason why peaceful protesting cannot be done during the day, and people simply go home at night. There just isn't any reason that this couldn't happen. I'm not suggesting a curfew, just hoping the peaceful protesters could do it on their own.

Yeah I think we're pretty much in agreement on all this. Although if there were no police presence or fear or repercussions there would be probably be criminal activity in any community in America.

And sure it would be nice if the protestors just called it a day and went home at dark. But they're not obliged to do so, and tear gassing them just because they don't is waaaay over the line.

 

[TobiasFunke]

There's a lot we don't know about the killing, but there's a lot we do know.

"Facts" ... Holy crap, let's take a step back and let things play out with real evidence with the grand jury and a possible trial. This guy has the case solved, just indict the cop now.

Pretty sure he didn't demand vigilante justice. Maybe I missed it?

 

[Doug B]

At this point, before the fact are even known, sides have become entrenched. Folks believe they know the truth, and once that happens no amount of evidence will dissuade them from their positions ...

I'm still trying to wait for the facts. Trying, but human nature is such that we inevitably form hypothesis, and then we root that our own intelligence in doing so is validated.

Humans cannot access truth -- even firsthand through their own five senses. We believe what we want to believe, and invent reality on the fly every moment of our existence.

Capture it on video & audio from multiple angles, or else all you have is a melange of several persons' invented realities.

 

[tom22406]

Just as I expected(like almost every other thread here).

 

[msommer]

At this point, before the fact are even known, sides have become entrenched. Folks believe they know the truth, and once that happens no amount of evidence will dissuade them from their positions ...

I'm still trying to wait for the facts. Trying, but human nature is such that we inevitably form hypothesis, and then we root that our own intelligence in doing so is validated.

Humans cannot access truth -- even firsthand through their own five senses. We believe what we want to believe, and invent reality on the fly every moment of our existence.

Capture it on video & audio from multiple angles, or else all you have is a melange of several persons' invented realities.

Earlier it was mentioned that the Ferguson PD has purchased body cameras, but have not yet deployed them...

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in warfare, but it can be used against American citizens who are exercising their Constitutional right to peacefully assemble. Neat-o.

Why would you not be "allowed" to use tear gas in a war? If I was a soldier, I would much rather be tear gassed than shot.

The root of this is from WWI. Trench warfare lead to thousands of miles of entrenched stalemate positions across Europe. As long as you stayed in your trench, you were basically immoveable. If you came out of your trench, you were basically mowed down. Various gasses were used to "encourage" soldiers to vacate their trenches. In some cases, tear gas was used to make them run out, then they were shot. In later/other cases, they just used poison gas to kill soldiers directly.

So in short - Gas doesn't kill you...it makes you leave your cover so you can then be shot. No military would use tear gas to "disperse crowds" like it's used in civil unrest. It's really not a fair comparison as the use is completely different.

Okay. So in other words, there's a really good reason why this is "allowed" if you want to break up domestic disturbances but not "allowed" in warfare.

(I'm not convinced that forcing people out of a trench to get shot is necessarily a bad thing given that we're on a battlefield, but I can at least see the argument there).

 

[Apple Jack]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

Good thing you're armed.

 

[mr roboto]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

 

[Christo]

This is very different from the Rodney King Riots.

Thanks for answering the question no one asked, as usual.

At least give him credit for not starting a new thread.

 

[[icon]]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

Good thing you're armed.

Meh.. right now it's a bunch of leeches standing on the side of Poplar in midtown wasting their time by waiving signs at yelling at passing cars.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

Mostly agree - I would say the racial make-up of the police force is irrelevant to the current police-shooting case, but is indicative of the larger perceived problem of the police/authority attitudes and actions towards the black community.

I am not an advocate of affirmative action by any stretch, but just general population distribution would suggest that local government jobs would be filled in a similar proportion to the racial make-up of the community. If it is too out of whack, it would make me wonder why.

 

[Gary Coal Man]

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The racial make-up of the police force is relevant. Ferguson's black community does not trust Ferguson's police department, in great part, because that department is nearly all white. It's highly likely that we never would have heard of Brown's shooting and there would be no subsequent rioting if the policer officer who shot Brown was black.

Ferguson is not unique in this regard.

 

[msommer]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

Good thing you're armed.

Meh.. right now it's a bunch of leeches standing on the side of Poplar in midtown wasting their time by waiving signs at yelling at passing cars.

So a peaceful protest then, and not rioting as you seemed to imply above

 

[Fat Nick]

Tear gas is classified as a chemical weapon and cannot be used in warfare, but it can be used against American citizens who are exercising their Constitutional right to peacefully assemble. Neat-o.

Why would you not be "allowed" to use tear gas in a war? If I was a soldier, I would much rather be tear gassed than shot.

The root of this is from WWI. Trench warfare lead to thousands of miles of entrenched stalemate positions across Europe. As long as you stayed in your trench, you were basically immoveable. If you came out of your trench, you were basically mowed down. Various gasses were used to "encourage" soldiers to vacate their trenches. In some cases, tear gas was used to make them run out, then they were shot. In later/other cases, they just used poison gas to kill soldiers directly.

So in short - Gas doesn't kill you...it makes you leave your cover so you can then be shot. No military would use tear gas to "disperse crowds" like it's used in civil unrest. It's really not a fair comparison as the use is completely different.

Okay. So in other words, there's a really good reason why this is "allowed" if you want to break up domestic disturbances but not "allowed" in warfare.

(I'm not convinced that forcing people out of a trench to get shot is necessarily a bad thing given that we're on a battlefield, but I can at least see the argument there).

I've often thought that the concept of "rules" in warfare were a little silly too...but I get it, and WWI was really the catalyst for a lot of this as there was killing on a scale the world had never seen before, mostly due to technology. I think ultimately it was easier to say "Chemical weapons are outlawed," than to say, "Chemical weapons that kill are outlawed, but ones that do XXX are OK." A lot more grey area in the latter.

 

[mr roboto]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

Mostly agree - I would say the racial make-up of the police force is irrelevant to the current police-shooting case, but is indicative of the larger perceived problem of the police/authority attitudes and actions towards the black community.I am not an advocate of affirmative action by any stretch, but just general population distribution would suggest that local government jobs would be filled in a similar proportion to the racial make-up of the community. If it is too out of whack, it would make me wonder why.

Do you believe that all racial groups will choose educational and career paths in the exact same proportions? Cause if no, then unless you establish quotas or require certain hiring practices, you won't get a perfect match to the population in any field. It would be interesting to see what % of qualified black applicants got hired vs. qualified white applicants though.

 

[[icon]]

Frankly, I am a little surprised these protests have not shifted to bigger cities.

This should be the worry of every large city in the country. The root of these protests is pure...but they serve to hid many unlawful opportunists who really give the peaceful protests a bad name...this could easily get out of hand quickly.

They are surfacing in Memphis in New Orleans...

Good thing you're armed.

Meh.. right now it's a bunch of leeches standing on the side of Poplar in midtown wasting their time by waiving signs at yelling at passing cars.

So a peaceful protest then, and not rioting as you seemed to imply above

You should probably not be drinking this early in the morning.... I never implied such a thing.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

Seems like that pretty much nails it to me. Only thing I'd add is that the burden on the "black community" or anyone sympathetic to the protestors' cause to defend Brown as a victim is not really anything close to the burden that should be on the law enforcement community to defend the officer's actions.

 

[mr roboto]

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The racial make-up of the police force is relevant. Ferguson's black community does not trust Ferguson's police department, in great part, because that department is nearly all white. It's highly likely that we never would have heard of Brown's shooting and there would be no subsequent rioting if the policer officer who shot Brown was black.

Ferguson is not unique in this regard.

Fair enough. It's relevant to the extent that it explains the community reaction. But it's not a true cause for this incident. And it's not a nationwide problem (racist cops shooting minorities).

 

[Plorfu]

I don't know where the protestors get their energy...If I kept going like that I would have a hard time getting up and going to work the next day.

Best post in the whole thread IMO.

"Guys, there is an ingrained, unjust undercurrent of racism and inequality inherent in the system and among the authorities who are supposed to protect us! Unarmed youths are getting killed! Let's take to the streets and voice our opposition!"

"Can't, sorry. Gotta be there at 5am to open up Kinko's or some people on the internet will think we're losers."

 

[Sinn Fein]

Todem, the answers to your questions are 'we don't know'

Wow.....no wonder there is civil unrest. But my goodness why can't it be peaceful protest. Why do these vampires have to do this crap. It's unreal.

When can we expect a full repost on the circumstances surrounding this. When a kid get's shot 6 times you better have a full detailed account of WTF happened. I gotta believe the kid really had to have done something pretty stupid to end up dead. Assumptions being made are not helping anyone. Both sides.

Tell me more about these assumptions.

The rioters are assuming a young man was murdered, in cold blood while trying to surrender to the officer in question. Based on one supposed eye witness? So assumptions are being made on the guilt of the police officer.

Fair to say that?

It was just somewhat ironic that you start by saying "I gotta believe the kid did something stupid" and then knock people for making assumptions. You sound predisposed to the idea that a police officer would not wrongfully shoot someone. Other people are predisposed to believe that a police officer will wrongfully shoot someone, and will always mistreat a black male.

By now, I would think most people have inherent biases as it relates to the story. Some will be predisposed to believe the police version, some will be predisposed to believe the anti-police version.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

 

[Sand]

He is probably victim to that petty theft a lot and didn't think it was a big deal. Hence, he didn't call 911. Whomever did over reacted. The police didn't care either until they connected the dots of the proximity of the location and the description of the guy. Then they got a warrant and the video for pure PR. Police aren't normally getting a warrant to view a video for stolen swisher sweets and a guy getting pushed without injuries or even falling down.

It's overreacting to call the cops when your pizza isn't delievered on time. It's not overreacting to call the cops after witnessing blatant theft and a store proprietor being manhandled by a much larger guy.

If people simply allowed such instances to occur because calling the police would be overreating then more of those instances would occur and the area would quickly devolve into a craphole.

Do we know that a theft occurred?

I don't think we know, and I don't think it matters.

Of course it matters. That fact (i.e. the assertion that Brown was on edge about seeing an officer so soon after his robbery) along with the fact that Brown was high when the confrontation occurred will both play during the grand jury/trial/ etc. Whether you believe it or not it adds credence to the officer's (right now 2nd hand) description of events.

 

[Christo]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

Mostly agree - I would say the racial make-up of the police force is irrelevant to the current police-shooting case, but is indicative of the larger perceived problem of the police/authority attitudes and actions towards the black community.

I am not an advocate of affirmative action by any stretch, but just general population distribution would suggest that local government jobs would be filled in a similar proportion to the racial make-up of the community. If it is too out of whack, it would make me wonder why.

Maybe it has something to do with the black community's mistrust of the police department. If you are raised thinking that the police don't have the proper consideration for your community it stands to reason that people from the community would not want to be part of that organization for fear of being seen as a sell-out.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Someone tell me if the following opinion is either racist or anti-cop.

We don't know exactly what happened yet. The police and governor and law enforcement community can't fully defend the officer's actions. The black community can't fully defend Brown as a victim.

The police militarization is obnoxious. That's a national issue. And clearly the local force is tone deaf to the community. None of which justifies looting or rioting.

The racial makeup of the police force is irrelevant and a distracting red herring.

The police are far too aggressive in this country. Forces tend to attract the type of people who get off on this power.

Mostly agree - I would say the racial make-up of the police force is irrelevant to the current police-shooting case, but is indicative of the larger perceived problem of the police/authority attitudes and actions towards the black community.

I am not an advocate of affirmative action by any stretch, but just general population distribution would suggest that local government jobs would be filled in a similar proportion to the racial make-up of the community. If it is too out of whack, it would make me wonder why.

Maybe it has something to do with the black community's mistrust of the police department. If you are raised thinking that the police don't have the proper consideration for your community it stands to reason that people from the community would not want to be part of that organization for fear of being seen as a sell-out.

Maybe. I just said it would make me wonder why, not that there is not a valid reason.

 

[Hooper31]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

 

[Sinn Fein]

He is probably victim to that petty theft a lot and didn't think it was a big deal. Hence, he didn't call 911. Whomever did over reacted. The police didn't care either until they connected the dots of the proximity of the location and the description of the guy. Then they got a warrant and the video for pure PR. Police aren't normally getting a warrant to view a video for stolen swisher sweets and a guy getting pushed without injuries or even falling down.

It's overreacting to call the cops when your pizza isn't delievered on time. It's not overreacting to call the cops after witnessing blatant theft and a store proprietor being manhandled by a much larger guy.

If people simply allowed such instances to occur because calling the police would be overreating then more of those instances would occur and the area would quickly devolve into a craphole.

Do we know that a theft occurred?

I don't think we know, and I don't think it matters.

Of course it matters. That fact (i.e. the assertion that Brown was on edge about seeing an officer so soon after his robbery) along with the fact that Brown was high when the confrontation occurred will both play during the grand jury/trial/ etc. Whether you believe it or not it adds credence to the officer's (right now 2nd hand) description of events.

It matters not. I, for one, do not believe that Brown would be agitated over a simple misdemeanor charge - I could be wrong, but if he was brazen enough to pull of the theft, I doubt he cares too much a about a patrol officer.

Then, based on the evidence we think we know, there was a conversation between Brown and the Officer, no? Brown walked away from that conversation/confrontation before he was shot. Since we know the police did not know about the theft at that time, we know the police officer was not pressing him on the issue, and this started as a jaywalking beef. SO, his reaction, assuming that he did try to bull rush the police officer, was very unlikely to have been related to the incident at the minimart.

The only purpose the video serves is to reinforce the notion that the cops killed a "bad guy".

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107 Liberal

SaintsInDome2006 100 Conservative

timschochet 99 Changes from minute to minute

jonessed 81 Conservative

TobiasFunke 80 Liberal

Greggity 76 Peens

Todd Andrews 74 K00K

lod01 72 Not sure

Gary Coal Man 63 Seems fairly centrist. Not sure whose alias this is.

Fennis 61 Pretty centrist.

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

 

[Todem]

Todem, the answers to your questions are 'we don't know'

Wow.....no wonder there is civil unrest. But my goodness why can't it be peaceful protest. Why do these vampires have to do this crap. It's unreal.

When can we expect a full repost on the circumstances surrounding this. When a kid get's shot 6 times you better have a full detailed account of WTF happened. I gotta believe the kid really had to have done something pretty stupid to end up dead. Assumptions being made are not helping anyone. Both sides.

Tell me more about these assumptions.

The rioters are assuming a young man was murdered, in cold blood while trying to surrender to the officer in question. Based on one supposed eye witness? So assumptions are being made on the guilt of the police officer.

Fair to say that?

It was just somewhat ironic that you start by saying "I gotta believe the kid did something stupid" and then knock people for making assumptions. You sound predisposed to the idea that a police officer would not wrongfully shoot someone. Other people are predisposed to believe that a police officer will wrongfully shoot someone, and will always mistreat a black male.

By now, I would think most people have inherent biases as it relates to the story. Some will be predisposed to believe the police version, some will be predisposed to believe the anti-police version.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle.

Great point. I come from the school of thought that usually wants to believe our law enforcement for the most part is good. They have an awful task of protecting the public and enforcing the law. The job stinks. And I am grateful to those that serve.

I want to believe a police officer would not put 6 slugs into a 17 year old young man for no good reason. So yeah...I did make a slight assumption which is human nature.

I hope this is resolved and the answers emerge and the family can mourn and find peace. But assumptions have clearly been made by that community and the parents.

They want justice (saw them on the Today show this morning). Another way of saying arrest the police officer and charge him with murder and have him stand trial. But based one what?

None of us know anything as the Police have said nothing. It's crazy. If he indeed was negligent....he should be tried and serve the time for what is proven in court he did wrong, manslaughter, 2nd degree murder whatever is proven in a court of law.

I hate to see what happens if he does stand trial and is found not guilty. I mean look at whats going on and nobody knows anything right now! Even worse if this is found to be justified self defense and a grand jury has no grounds for getting a trial to begin with. Man. Chaos may ensue to an even more violent level.

It's just sad all the way around.

 

[urbanhack]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107 Liberal

SaintsInDome2006 100 Conservative

timschochet 99 Changes from minute to minute

jonessed 81 Conservative

TobiasFunke 80 Liberal

Greggity 76 Peens

Todd Andrews 74 K00K

lod01 72 Not sure

Gary Coal Man 63 Seems fairly centrist. Not sure whose alias this is.

Fennis 61 Pretty centrist.

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

looks like Lod01 is kind of a Peens Jr.

 

[timschochet]

Todem made the point that CNN is focusing too much on the violent protests rather than the peaceful ones. That made me wonder: suppose there were no rioting, no looting, no violence. Suppose all of the protests were totally peaceful.

Would this still be a national story?