Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[jonessed]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

There are people getting shot and police officers getting shot at now. That can't go on. Now that the riots have expanded to people outside the community things are getting increasingly more combustible.

 

[mr roboto]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

 

[Henry Ford]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loeschs radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown bum-rushed Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cops gun.

Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something, the caller added. The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.





So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.



Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.



But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

It sure is amazing that he was shot 2-3 feet from the officer and his body was 30 feet from the cruiser.

Witnesses claim there was some degree of a chase.

The link included in that post doesn't make any mention of a chase. Only Brown running 35 feet away from the officer before the officer "got up and ordered the suspect to 'freeze.'"

Some of the witnesses said there was a chase. Specifically, the video posted yesterday of the CNN interview had a witness describing a chase.

So that witness says there was a chase and this person says that he got up and yelled freeze and got bum rushed? Do these inconsistent statements mean we toss out their testimony just like everyone wants to do with the other witnesses?

 

[Dondante]

Good to see the Black Panthers are helping this situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJrG2AMghw

Yes, all three of them.

Amazing. What's that got to do with it?

 

[kentric]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

The body was found about 10 yards from the police car with no gunshot residue on the skin.

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

 

[msommer]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

You tear gas their asses, then water cannon them. All done with out military hardware

 

[jonessed]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loeschs radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown bum-rushed Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cops gun.

Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something, the caller added. The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.





So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.



Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.



But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

It sure is amazing that he was shot 2-3 feet from the officer and his body was 30 feet from the cruiser.

Witnesses claim there was some degree of a chase.

The link included in that post doesn't make any mention of a chase. Only Brown running 35 feet away from the officer before the officer "got up and ordered the suspect to 'freeze.'"

Some of the witnesses said there was a chase. Specifically, the video posted yesterday of the CNN interview had a witness describing a chase.

So that witness says there was a chase and this person says that he got up and yelled freeze and got bum rushed? Do these inconsistent statements mean we toss out their testimony just like everyone wants to do with the other witnesses?

I'm just trying to explain how he may have been shot at 2-3 ft. and still be laying 35 feet from the police cruiser.

I don't think the possibility is really all that "amazing".

 

[Sinn Fein]

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

umm...about that, nah never mind. Go with it.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

There are people getting shot and police officers getting shot at now. That can't go on. Now that the riots have expanded to people outside the community things are getting increasingly more combustible.

Now, yes, there have been a couple reports of shots fired over the last 24-48 hours. That's awful and inexcusable. However, the absurd over the top reaction of the police (along with their various other missteps that destroyed their credibility) preceded it. A week ago Sunday there were a couple isolated reports of looting, that's it. It completely died down for a couple days early last week. But the police response escalated their preventative measures to a surreal level while it was dying down, and that along with the continued lack of transparency and the joke of a PC on Friday AM, caused the bad behavior to return IMO. By the way I still think the response is totally disproportionate to the threat. There are plenty of shots fired in virtually every city in America every day.

 

[Todem]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

You probably should have stopped with "the woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show." Zero credibility. It's the same reason I don't give much credence to the accounts on some liberal-leaning blogs claiming that Brown paid for the cigars and there was no robbery.

Yeah I am waiting for official statements and as true of an account as we can get from credible witnesses.

This thing is a mess.

 

[msommer]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

The body was found about 10 yards from the police car with no gunshot residue on the skin.

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

The last shot, to the crown of the head was the killing one. Was there a bullet hole in the cap lying on the ground? if not there would be gsr on the head, if shot a few feet away.

Also last I checked 3 feet=1 yard

 

[kentric]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

There are people getting shot and police officers getting shot at now. That can't go on. Now that the riots have expanded to people outside the community things are getting increasingly more combustible.

Now, yes, there have been a couple reports of shots fired over the last 24-48 hours. That's awful and inexcusable. However, the absurd over the top reaction of the police (along with their various other missteps that destroyed their credibility) preceded it. A week ago Sunday there were a couple isolated reports of looting, that's it. It completely died down for a couple days early last week. But the police response escalated their response while it was dying down, and that along with the continued lack of transparency and the joke of a PC on Friday AM, caused the bad behavior to return IMO. By the way I still think the response is totally disproportionate to the threat. There are plenty of shots fired in virtually every city in America every day.

I don't think you can put this all on the police or all on the rioters. They each have contributed to the escalation of what is going on.

 

[TobiasFunke]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

You probably should have stopped with "the woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show." Zero credibility. It's the same reason I don't give much credence to the accounts on some liberal-leaning blogs claiming that Brown paid for the cigars and there was no robbery.

Yeah I am waiting for official statements and as true of an account as we can get from credible witnesses.

This thing is a mess.

If only there were someone in a position to offer some clarity regarding the incident.

 

[Henry Ford]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loeschs radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown bum-rushed Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cops gun.

Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something, the caller added. The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.





So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.



Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.



But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

It sure is amazing that he was shot 2-3 feet from the officer and his body was 30 feet from the cruiser.

Witnesses claim there was some degree of a chase.

The link included in that post doesn't make any mention of a chase. Only Brown running 35 feet away from the officer before the officer "got up and ordered the suspect to 'freeze.'"

Some of the witnesses said there was a chase. Specifically, the video posted yesterday of the CNN interview had a witness describing a chase.

So that witness says there was a chase and this person says that he got up and yelled freeze and got bum rushed? Do these inconsistent statements mean we toss out their testimony just like everyone wants to do with the other witnesses?

I'm just trying to explain how he may have been shot at 2-3 ft. and still be laying 35 feet from the police cruiser.

I don't think the possibility is really all that "amazing".

I know. And I also think that he chased the kid down and shot him. But the story linked in that post is ridiculous.

 

[Dondante]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

There are people getting shot and police officers getting shot at now. That can't go on. Now that the riots have expanded to people outside the community things are getting increasingly more combustible.

Now, yes, there have been a couple reports of shots fired over the last 24-48 hours. That's awful and inexcusable. However, the absurd over the top reaction of the police (along with their various other missteps that destroyed their credibility) preceded it. A week ago Sunday there were a couple isolated reports of looting, that's it. It completely died down for a couple days early last week. But the police response escalated their preventative measures to a surreal level while it was dying down, and that along with the continued lack of transparency and the joke of a PC on Friday AM, caused the bad behavior to return IMO. By the way I still think the response is totally disproportionate to the threat. There are plenty of shots fired in virtually every city in America every day.

Especially the ones where race-riots and looting are happening.

 

[jamny]

If this goes to trial, will the robbery even be able to be brought up?

 

[TobiasFunke]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

I guess the police are suppose to just walk up and explain to the thrower, that the Molotov cocktail toss is not a game they should be playing out in the street with all of those people around.

There are people getting shot and police officers getting shot at now. That can't go on. Now that the riots have expanded to people outside the community things are getting increasingly more combustible.

Now, yes, there have been a couple reports of shots fired over the last 24-48 hours. That's awful and inexcusable. However, the absurd over the top reaction of the police (along with their various other missteps that destroyed their credibility) preceded it. A week ago Sunday there were a couple isolated reports of looting, that's it. It completely died down for a couple days early last week. But the police response escalated their response while it was dying down, and that along with the continued lack of transparency and the joke of a PC on Friday AM, caused the bad behavior to return IMO. By the way I still think the response is totally disproportionate to the threat. There are plenty of shots fired in virtually every city in America every day.

I don't think you can put this all on the police or all on the rioters. They each have contributed to the escalation of what is going on.

I would agree with that. However, only one of those groups is being paid and armed to serve and protect the public.

 

[BigJohn]

Is anyone doing that? I have not been keeping up with the whole thread. I have only seen the video once, and it certainly looks like he grabbed something and left - my only point is that it is wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand.

You need to watch the video again.

Ok - why? What is that going to impact, or how are you wanting me to alter my views?

He doesn't just take the cigars and walk out. You conveniently leave out the assault, then charging back at the store owner when he confronts him again. It's not shoplifting, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

[timschochet]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

No, that's not what I wrote. I don't see the specific connection to this situation. The question I asked was, SPECIFICALLY, how things would have been different this time around without the military hardware? But nobody has offered an answer to that. Instead, all I get are generalities about how alarming this sort of thing is and how I'm some kind of hypocrite for defending it. I haven't defended it. But what does it have to do with what happened at Ferguson?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

Doraville, GA has a tank. 'Nuff said.

 

[kentric]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

The body was found about 10 yards from the police car with no gunshot residue on the skin.

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

The last shot, to the crown of the head was the killing one. Was there a bullet hole in the cap lying on the ground? if not there would be gsr on the head, if shot a few feet away.

Also last I checked 3 feet=1 yard

Good point on the head shot. Hadn't thought of that. Not sure how far away you'd need to be for residue, but I'd expect there to be some on his clothing at least from the gunshot in the car. In any case, the residue shouldn't be the smoking gun here if the officer's version (though the wife's friend or the background in one of the video's holds true). If this 6'4" 290 lb (not sure what that is in liters, sorry) guy was bumrushing the cop, the cop had a reason to shoot IMO.

 

[jonessed]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loeschs radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown bum-rushed Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cops gun.

Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something, the caller added. The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.





So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.



Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.



But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

You probably should have stopped with "the woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loeschs radio show." Zero credibility. It's the same reason I don't give much credence to the accounts on some liberal-leaning blogs claiming that Brown paid for the cigars and there was no robbery.

Yeah I am waiting for official statements and as true of an account as we can get from credible witnesses.This thing is a mess.

You won't see it until the trial. Once these things become politicized everything gets smeared and chopped up into biased soundbites.

 

[msommer]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

Doraville, GA has a tank. 'Nuff said.

If Doraville has one, the Ferguson needs three

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Ferguson is the community-level equivalent of cops beating on a guy while they tell him to hold still and stop resisting arrest or they'll keep beating him.

 

[jonessed]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

Doraville, GA has a tank. 'Nuff said.

I've always suspected Boots of being an Al Queda operative so this is understandable.

 

[mr roboto]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

No, that's not what I wrote. I don't see the specific connection to this situation. The question I asked was, SPECIFICALLY, how things would have been different this time around without the military hardware? But nobody has offered an answer to that. Instead, all I get are generalities about how alarming this sort of thing is and how I'm some kind of hypocrite for defending it. I haven't defended it. But what does it have to do with what happened at Ferguson?

People who are already generally suspicious of the police see them coming in armored vehicles. It looks like an occupying force. I bet if I combed through all of your posts on this site, I would find plenty of arguments you have made about the power of symbolism as it relates to controlling a population. In fact, the argument I'm making strikes me as one that you would readily make. Which causes me to question my own argument I suppose.

 

[msommer]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

The body was found about 10 yards from the police car with no gunshot residue on the skin.

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

The last shot, to the crown of the head was the killing one. Was there a bullet hole in the cap lying on the ground? if not there would be gsr on the head, if shot a few feet away.

Also last I checked 3 feet=1 yard

Good point on the head shot. Hadn't thought of that. Not sure how far away you'd need to be for residue, but I'd expect there to be some on his clothing at least from the gunshot in the car. In any case, the residue shouldn't be the smoking gun here if the officer's version (though the wife's friend or the background in one of the video's holds true). If this 6'4" 290 lb (not sure what that is in liters, sorry) guy was bumrushing the cop, the cop had a reason to shoot IMO.

Sure, if he was bum rushed, but only the caller who said she was a friend of the officers wife said that he was.

 

[TobiasFunke]

I want to discuss this issue of the militarization of police, because it keeps getting brought up, and I'm not quite seeing the connection. I don't understand how it contributed to the shooting of Michael Brown, and I don't understand how it has contributed to the actions of the police afterwards in response to the protests and rioting. My assumption is that if the police didn't have any military hardware, very little about this entire story would be different.

Is this a wrong assumption on my part? If so, why?

You claim to be a big fan of the libertarians, right? I'll let Rand Paul explain it to you.

To simplify- when you treat citizens as enemy combatants instead of the people you are supposed to serve and protect, you're gonna get justifiable distrust at a minimum, and on occasion much more than that.

First off, I am a big fan of certain aspects of libertarianism, but the focus on this sort of stuff annoys the hell out of me, and has caused me not to consider myself a libertarian any longer. Rand Paul and his dad in particular represent all of the newer aspects of the libertarian movement which I despise.

That being said, I'm willing to accept at least the plausibility of the argument you're making, so long as there is statistical evidence to back up the claim. (I haven't seen any, but maybe it's out there.) Regardless, I'm still not seeing how it applies to THIS incident. What would have been different?

We saw exactly how it would have been different last Thursday night. Then the cops pulled their horse#### PC on Friday morning that once again destroyed their credibility, and then rolled back into town in riot gear, and started it all up again.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Is anyone doing that? I have not been keeping up with the whole thread. I have only seen the video once, and it certainly looks like he grabbed something and left - my only point is that it is wholly irrelevant to the issue at hand.

You need to watch the video again.

Ok - why? What is that going to impact, or how are you wanting me to alter my views?

He doesn't just take the cigars and walk out. You conveniently leave out the assault, then charging back at the store owner when he confronts him again. It's not shoplifting, no matter how much you want it to be.

Ok - again, how does that impact this situation? Call it whatever you want, but I don't see the relevance to the matter at hand. His confrontation with a little man in a convenience store makes it likely that he bum rushed an armed cop? I am not ready to draw that conclusion. Sorry.

 

[Guest]

This is why we need cameras on every street. This whole thing could be settled by now. Save us Google, you're our only hope.

 

[Fennis]

The woman called into TheBlaze TV host Dana Loesch’s radio show on Friday, claiming thatBrown “bum-rushed” Wilson moments after pushing him into his squad car, punching him in the face and trying to grab the cop’s gun.

“Michael and his friend turn around. And Michael taunts him… And then all the sudden he just started bumrushing him. He just started coming at him full speed. And, so he just started shooting. And, he just kept coming. And, so he really thinks he was on something,” the caller added. “The final shot was in the forehead, and then he fell about two or three feet in front of the officer.”

So how does this jive with some saying hands were in the air surrendering then he got gunned down......this is really nuts. I am leaning to the Police side of the story as I usually do until they are proven to be negligent. They need to make a clear statement ASAP and give an official report on this. Time is not on their side. And the true fact remains we still have no clue what happened yet.

I want to know this officers service record and this guys criminal record. What are we dealing with here? A crazed trigger happy cop? Or a cop defending himself from assault and fear for his life if he indeed reached for his gun and them charged at him. Because if it is proven he reached for his gun.

Done. Life is threatened, he was fully justified to fire and kill this young man.

But I want to know who are these dozen or so witnesses?

The body was found about 10 yards from the police car with no gunshot residue on the skin.

It wasn't 10 yards it was 30 feet (or liters, not sure which). No residue on the skin, but they haven't come out with whether there was residue on the clothing. Todem. The person who called in with that info is a friend of the cop's wife. She may be a bit biased in this - though not saying she was.

The last shot, to the crown of the head was the killing one. Was there a bullet hole in the cap lying on the ground? if not there would be gsr on the head, if shot a few feet away.

Also last I checked 3 feet=1 yard

Good point on the head shot. Hadn't thought of that. Not sure how far away you'd need to be for residue, but I'd expect there to be some on his clothing at least from the gunshot in the car. In any case, the residue shouldn't be the smoking gun here if the officer's version (though the wife's friend or the background in one of the video's holds true). If this 6'4" 290 lb (not sure what that is in liters, sorry) guy was bumrushing the cop, the cop had a reason to shoot IMO.

1.93 m and 131.5 kg

 

[BassNBrew]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

Looks like some of each. I think on this issue I, Tobias, Todd, and Fennis come off on the liberal end of the spectrum. Though by the same token, I think almost everyone on that list has, at times, chucked aside the bias and said that we just don't know enough to know for sure what happened.

Thanks. Appreciate the perspective.

My perspective: I think it's weird that most of the focus is on the guilt or innocence of the officer. I think the gross misconduct of the police department here is the real story. It's appalling. Libertarians and similarly minded small government activists should be outraged. Rand Paul aside (and I give him credit for speaking up), their silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

Tobias, I don't recall your position on the gun debate, but most on the liberal side of the issue laugh at conservatives who bring up the point that our gov't may get out of line dealing with it's citizens. I'm not suggesting the protesters should be shooting at police, just making the point that the authority in the country can get heavy handed.

 

[Captain Quinoa]

Had he just thrown his hands in the air he would have been fine.

It was the waving them like he just didn't care that got him shot.

 

[mr roboto]

Had he just thrown his hands in the air he would have been fine.

It was the waving them like he just didn't care that got him shot.

 

[timschochet]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

No, that's not what I wrote. I don't see the specific connection to this situation. The question I asked was, SPECIFICALLY, how things would have been different this time around without the military hardware? But nobody has offered an answer to that. Instead, all I get are generalities about how alarming this sort of thing is and how I'm some kind of hypocrite for defending it. I haven't defended it. But what does it have to do with what happened at Ferguson?

People who are already generally suspicious of the police see them coming in armored vehicles. It looks like an occupying force. I bet if I combed through all of your posts on this site, I would find plenty of arguments you have made about the power of symbolism as it relates to controlling a population. In fact, the argument I'm making strikes me as one that you would readily make. Which causes me to question my own argument I suppose.

I bet you wouldn't. It's certainly an interesting subject, but not one that I can recall discussing.

But in any event, you're still talking in general terms, and I don't think it applies to this situation. It certainly doesn't apply to the shooting itself, IMO. And as to the police overreaction and the protestors' response after the shooting, I suspect that racial attitudes on both sides play a much larger role.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

Looks like some of each. I think on this issue I, Tobias, Todd, and Fennis come off on the liberal end of the spectrum. Though by the same token, I think almost everyone on that list has, at times, chucked aside the bias and said that we just don't know enough to know for sure what happened.

Thanks. Appreciate the perspective.

My perspective: I think it's weird that most of the focus is on the guilt or innocence of the officer. I think the gross misconduct of the police department here is the real story. It's appalling. Libertarians and similarly minded small government activists should be outraged. Rand Paul aside (and I give him credit for speaking up), their silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

Tobias, I don't recall your position on the gun debate, but most on the liberal side of the issue laugh at conservatives who bring up the point that our gov't may get out of line dealing with it's citizens. I'm not suggesting the protesters should be shooting at police, just making the point that the authority in the country can get heavy handed.

I'm anti-gun control or pro-guns or whatever you want to call it. I think some pro-gun people play way too fast and loose with their arguments about how guns make us safer, so sometimes it seems like I'm on the other side when I argue about that with them but for the most part I don't mind our current gun laws at all.

 

[Sinn Fein]

If this goes to trial, will the robbery even be able to be brought up?

Depends - but definitely maybe. As I understand the officer's story, albeit third or 4th hand, he will say that he was called about the robbery with a description that matched Brown. So, the defense will want to introduce it to show Brown is a bad dude why the officer acted as he did.

I thought the police department though has already said the robbery was not a factor in the stop/incident, but I don't know the details here about when/if the call did go out.

 

[tom22406]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

Looks like some of each. I think on this issue I, Tobias, Todd, and Fennis come off on the liberal end of the spectrum. Though by the same token, I think almost everyone on that list has, at times, chucked aside the bias and said that we just don't know enough to know for sure what happened.

Thanks. Appreciate the perspective.

My perspective: I think it's weird that most of the focus is on the guilt or innocence of the officer. I think the gross misconduct of the police department here is the real story. It's appalling. Libertarians and similarly minded small government activists should be outraged. Rand Paul aside (and I give him credit for speaking up), their silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

Tobias, I don't recall your position on the gun debate, but most on the liberal side of the issue laugh at conservatives who bring up the point that our gov't may get out of line dealing with it's citizens. I'm not suggesting the protesters should be shooting at police, just making the point that the authority in the country can get heavy handed.

I'm anti-gun control or pro-guns or whatever you want to call it. I think some pro-gun people play way too fast and loose with their arguments about how guns make us safer, so sometimes it seems like I'm on the other side when I argue about that with them but for the most part I don't mind our current gun laws at all.

Another very interesting silent voice has been the NRA in all of this.You would think they would be all over this or maybe I just missed it?

 

[Bonzai]

Had he just thrown his hands in the air he would have been fine.

It was the waving them like he just didn't care that got him shot.

I laughed so ####### hard at this.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

Looks like some of each. I think on this issue I, Tobias, Todd, and Fennis come off on the liberal end of the spectrum. Though by the same token, I think almost everyone on that list has, at times, chucked aside the bias and said that we just don't know enough to know for sure what happened.

Thanks. Appreciate the perspective.

My perspective: I think it's weird that most of the focus is on the guilt or innocence of the officer. I think the gross misconduct of the police department here is the real story. It's appalling. Libertarians and similarly minded small government activists should be outraged. Rand Paul aside (and I give him credit for speaking up), their silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

Tobias, I don't recall your position on the gun debate, but most on the liberal side of the issue laugh at conservatives who bring up the point that our gov't may get out of line dealing with it's citizens. I'm not suggesting the protesters should be shooting at police, just making the point that the authority in the country can get heavy handed.

I'm anti-gun control or pro-guns or whatever you want to call it. I think some pro-gun people play way too fast and loose with their arguments about how guns make us safer, so sometimes it seems like I'm on the other side when I argue about that with them but for the most part I don't mind our current gun laws at all.

Another very interesting silent voice has been the NRA in all of this.You would think they would be all over this or maybe I just missed it?

They are just sitting back, and saying "Told you guys that white-folk need guns. ####s getting real. Protect your home/business from looters"

 

[tom22406]

And speaking of being silent.Anybody heard anything from Hillary on this?

 

[timschochet]

Top 10 posters in this thread:

Henry Ford 107

SaintsInDome2006 100

timschochet 99

jonessed 81

TobiasFunke 80

Greggity 76

Todd Andrews 74

lod01 72

Gary Coal Man 63

Fennis 61

I ask this because I don't know. I'm not trying to make any sort of point. Is this list largely conservative or liberal? Depending on your answer, is this a relevant or pointless question?

Looks like some of each. I think on this issue I, Tobias, Todd, and Fennis come off on the liberal end of the spectrum. Though by the same token, I think almost everyone on that list has, at times, chucked aside the bias and said that we just don't know enough to know for sure what happened.

Thanks. Appreciate the perspective.

My perspective: I think it's weird that most of the focus is on the guilt or innocence of the officer. I think the gross misconduct of the police department here is the real story. It's appalling. Libertarians and similarly minded small government activists should be outraged. Rand Paul aside (and I give him credit for speaking up), their silence and hypocrisy is deafening.

Tobias, I don't recall your position on the gun debate, but most on the liberal side of the issue laugh at conservatives who bring up the point that our gov't may get out of line dealing with it's citizens. I'm not suggesting the protesters should be shooting at police, just making the point that the authority in the country can get heavy handed.

Yeah, and personally I argued against those conservatives, much as I am arguing against some liberals in this case. To me it's the same level of, for want of a better world, paranoia: this belief that the government is actively coming to get YOU. It's the same reason I found myself defending the NSA, despite all of their errors (errors which have gotten so large that I don't defend them anymore.) I just do not agree with this mindset that is growing on both sides in this country, that the government/police/establishment are deliberately out to do evil. To me it's dangerous nonsense.

 

[mr roboto]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

No, that's not what I wrote. I don't see the specific connection to this situation. The question I asked was, SPECIFICALLY, how things would have been different this time around without the military hardware? But nobody has offered an answer to that. Instead, all I get are generalities about how alarming this sort of thing is and how I'm some kind of hypocrite for defending it. I haven't defended it. But what does it have to do with what happened at Ferguson?

People who are already generally suspicious of the police see them coming in armored vehicles. It looks like an occupying force. I bet if I combed through all of your posts on this site, I would find plenty of arguments you have made about the power of symbolism as it relates to controlling a population. In fact, the argument I'm making strikes me as one that you would readily make. Which causes me to question my own argument I suppose.

I bet you wouldn't. It's certainly an interesting subject, but not one that I can recall discussing.But in any event, you're still talking in general terms, and I don't think it applies to this situation. It certainly doesn't apply to the shooting itself, IMO. And as to the police overreaction and the protestors' response after the shooting, I suspect that racial attitudes on both sides play a much larger role.

Really? Really? You can't see how a ####### military show of force on a suburban protest could MAKE THE ####### PROTESTERS NERVOUS AND/OR MORE VIOLENT??!??! #### it. I'm done. You are a master troll.

 

[Fennis]

If this goes to trial, will the robbery even be able to be brought up?

Depends - but definitely maybe. As I understand the officer's story, albeit third or 4th hand, he will say that he was called about the robbery with a description that matched Brown. So, the defense will want to introduce it to show Brown is a bad dude why the officer acted as he did.

I thought the police department though has already said the robbery was not a factor in the stop/incident, but I don't know the details here about when/if the call did go out.

The police chief said Officer Wilson was not aware of the robbery.

The trial balloon that Darren Wilson's lawyers sent out by calling anonymously in to a friendly talk show was that he was aware.

 

[msommer]

Had he just thrown his hands in the air he would have been fine.

It was the waving them like he just didn't care that got him shot.

And that police officer hit the waving arms four times out of four!

 

[jamny]

If this goes to trial, will the robbery even be able to be brought up?

Depends - but definitely maybe. As I understand the officer's story, albeit third or 4th hand, he will say that he was called about the robbery with a description that matched Brown. So, the defense will want to introduce it to show Brown is a bad dude why the officer acted as he did.

I thought the police department though has already said the robbery was not a factor in the stop/incident, but I don't know the details here about when/if the call did go out.

Oh, I thought it was being said that this was a random stop, unconnected to the robbery. I guess they'll have to prove that he heard the call come in. How far away was the convenience store and how long after the robbery was he shot?

 

[Henry Ford]

Tim the libertarian doesn't see the alarming shift in militarizing local small town police forces. What a joke.

No, that's not what I wrote. I don't see the specific connection to this situation. The question I asked was, SPECIFICALLY, how things would have been different this time around without the military hardware? But nobody has offered an answer to that. Instead, all I get are generalities about how alarming this sort of thing is and how I'm some kind of hypocrite for defending it. I haven't defended it. But what does it have to do with what happened at Ferguson?

People who are already generally suspicious of the police see them coming in armored vehicles. It looks like an occupying force. I bet if I combed through all of your posts on this site, I would find plenty of arguments you have made about the power of symbolism as it relates to controlling a population. In fact, the argument I'm making strikes me as one that you would readily make. Which causes me to question my own argument I suppose.

I bet you wouldn't. It's certainly an interesting subject, but not one that I can recall discussing.

But in any event, you're still talking in general terms, and I don't think it applies to this situation. It certainly doesn't apply to the shooting itself, IMO. And as to the police overreaction and the protestors' response after the shooting, I suspect that racial attitudes on both sides play a much larger role.

The amendments did, the actual increased voting did not. Lets take African-Americans for instance. In the early 60s, they finally made an inroads in achieving civil rights in the South. How did they do this? Not through voting, but through wielding economic power through the use of boycotts and protests. If the State of Alabama had had a vote in 1963 over whether Woolworth counters should have been desegregated, at least 80% of the population would have voted a resounding "NO!" That desegregation was not won through voting and it never could have been. It was won through an economic boycott and some powerful visual symbolism by a small minority pluralistic movement. Again, the more people that vote, the stupider our society is.

The truth is that, almost from the beginning of his life, Adolf Hitler destested all forms of religion, especially Christianity. He admired the ways the Catholic church used symbolism and ritual and imitated this in the Nazi party. But he saw his movement as opposition to the Church, and this is clear from his very early speeches. Hitler's two greatest influences on his thinking about religion in the early years were Nietzsche and Hegel, both of whom considered German culture heavily weakened by Christianity. His greatest romantic influence was Wagner, who sought to return Germany to the anti-Christian folk of the pagan gods. Hitler chose the swastika as the Nazi symbol very specifically as an alternative to the cross.

All of Hitler's speeches and vague mentionings that appear to be favorable of Christianity were nothing more than a sop to the Bavarian working class, which was strongly Catholic and which Hitler needed to soldify power in the early years. He admitted as much to his cohorts, according to direct sources (Joseph Goebbels' diary among others.) Once in power, Hitler and his pal Walter Rosenberg, a lifetime opponent of the church, immediately began persecuting ministers and priests. Their ultimate goal was a Germany without Christianity.

All of this is very well established in history, and only certain people with an axe to grind are attempting to rewrite the facts. As most people here know, I am an atheist myself, and I have no love for religion. But what I really hate is when people attempt to twist facts in order to argue their warped POV.

Maybe the word "control" is just too strong?

 

[BigJohn]

Good to see the Black Panthers are helping this situation

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwJrG2AMghw

Yes, all three of them.

The man leading the chant.

It's sad too. He was on CNN very prominently last night and I thought he came off pretty well.

 

[Fennis]

And speaking of being silent.Anybody heard anything from Hillary on this?

of course not

 

[mr roboto]

I love you so much HF.