Looting in Missouri after cops shoot 18 year old (1 Viewer)

[Clifford]

Black UVA student bloodied during arrest; governor demands investigation.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/03/19/us/uva-police-brutality-allegations/index.html

So from now on when a black person gets injured during an arrest, we will have to have independent investigations? Will the white suspects /criminals get the same course of action?

Did you ever get turned away from a bar after trying to use a fake ID in college? How about your white friends? Any of you end up pinned to the ground by the cops and bleeding from the head?

As for your last question- yes, when stuff like this happens with arrests of white people and someone captures it on camera, the #### hits the fan. Remember this one? The officer was quickly fired, an investigation was launched by the AG, and the sheriff could not possibly have been more apologetic (even talking about how this shows that body cameras are needed).

So it is a common response for the governor of a state to get involved when a drunk college student gets injured in the process of an arrest. C'mon this is getting ridiculous. You are probably right. The police were called and when they showed up I bet they were just ecstatic to see it was a black man. I bet they said to each other, sweet we get to bounce a black kids head against the pavement. I can't wait. Maybe from now on when a black person is involved they should just hand him the handcuffs and ask him politely to put them on. Again if you are black, white or any other color, if the police have to be called there is a chance you have done something wrong and you may get your head bounced of the ground if things don't go right. My white son was tackled to the ground by three white police officers because he was at a party when a fight broke out and when the cops got there he ran. Lesson he learned , next time don't ####### run or oppose the police. Maybe I should have contacted the governor.

Yes, that's exactly what I said.



Look, I get what you're saying. It can seem unfair to immediately jump to allegations that race played a role in a specific incident without all the facts. But there are many, many concrete reasons why it's OK to at least ask whether racial bias played a role in how law enforcement and/or the justice system treated a civilian. There are statistics on traffic stops and stop-and-frisks and sentencing disparities that separate all factors other than race that have been cited over and over again in the 224 pages of this thread. There's mountains of anecdotal evidence, from stories told by black people (also in this thread) to behavior many of us have observed in our communities to tales told by ex-cops. There's confirmations of blatant racism in law enforcement seemingly any time someone chooses to dig for it, most recently in the DOJ report on the Ferguson cops and St. Louis cops and local officials.

You want to stick your head in the sand and pretend there's no reason to ask these questions, that's your business. But complaining about people asking common sense questions based on overwhelming evidence showing the questions are valid?

Or maybe the Charlottesville cops are just far too rough with any younger person when it comes to alcohol related offenses (even if only perceived) with UVA students.

That girl spent 24 hours in jail after buying bottled water.

I'm not at all attempting to justify the actions of the cops in the recent incident, just saying that given previous history with that town, maybe race didn't have anything to do with it - maybe all the law enforcement officers are ***** when it comes to enforcing underage drinking. This may be especially true since events in that town in the recent past had a national story about the Kappa Alpha frat there (alcohol related), and the Hannah Graham rape/murder (also alcohol related).

This town, and that school specifically has had to deal with a serial killer, a huge frat rape allegation controversy that was in Rolling Stone magazine, a history of overzealous cops with (perceived) alcohol related offenses......but when this happens it automatically becomes a race related situation? I'm not saying it's not, but lets have the facts show that and not automatically go to that conclusion.

This is a cop problem, not necessarily a race problem. The linked article says it all. For far, far too long our courts have let this type of illegal and ridiculous behavior go unpunished, and the results are plain to see: cops that continually overstep the bounds of the law, that stretch their authority far beyond what the constitution allows, and who can not seem to control their rage even when dealing with non-threatening situations.

I'm willing to bet that none of these plainclothes officers saw a day in jail. I'm willing to bet the police officer who paralyzed the Indian man for walking down the street will never see a day in jail. I'm willing to bet the officer who shot the man for complying with his instructions on a seat belt stop never sees a day in jail. Same for the cops who brutally abused the black family they pulled over for a seatbelt violation.

The judges who try these cases are as responsible as the cops who terrorize citizens. Both groups need to be held responsible and dealt with swiftly and harshly. If the system continues to protect the bad cops and continues to allow them to brutalize citizens with no real threats to their liberty, we will continue to see the erosion of trust between law enforcement and the public.

This #### is anywhere you choose to look. It is literally all over the place. And it is way past time that cops who abuse their power and the citizens they are paid to protect meet real justice.

 

[Clifford]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

This story about the white female student. She was not jailed "for buying bottled water". She "spent the night in jail and was charged with eluding police and multiple counts of assaulting an officer". The bottled water part makes for a good headline, but it's not really the whole story.

You're mostly correct - she "eluded" the plain clothes dressed ABC officers (same department as the recent incident) who surrounded her car in the parking lot. She didn't know who they were (as they were plain clothes) and when one of them pulled a gun and another attempted to bash in her windows, she sped off and clipped one with her mirror - "assaulting an officer". "Police" (as in town, city, or state) were never involved - just ABC officers. In a town like Charlottesville, VA you don't expect 6 plain clothes officers to surround your car in the parking lot of a grocery store.

The ABC officers admitted their fault and paid her a settlement of $200k. They were obviously in the wrong then (same department, same town, student of the same school) and race had nothing to do with it.

All of them should have served time and been permanently barred from ever carrying a gun again or serving in role where they have any authority. That would have sent a message. A settlement that the department pays? Ridiculous.

 

[matttyl]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.

Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

Yeah I think if people knew that about Virginia ABC that would be equally justified in recognizing that history here. But they don't.

Boom! And that's my problem. Instead of actually looking at the situation rationally and realizing that there is already a history of this particular agency far overstepping their bounds in the enforcement of underage drinking prevention, they immediately go into claiming racism....which only exacerbates issues.

 

[General Tso]

I was responding to people who said that we should just assume race played no part until shown otherwise. I think that's silly; it's totally reasonable to consider both the history/statistics and your personal experience if they raise questions. But that doesn't mean I think you should always answer those questions a certain way.

And a few times now I've posted a story of this same agency far overstepping their bounds with a white female student from the same school when they pulled a gun on her and threw her in jail for buying bottled water and you haven't responded. It's widely known in Virginia (where I live) that the ABC isn't anything to mess with (huge revenue generator for the state) and have shut down 2 restaurants in my town in the last year or two. Even in this recent video you can hear the guy filming say something like, "those aren't even regular cops, those are ABC!" Why would "statistics" and personal history of other agencies from other places who just happen to have the same job be relevant here? Does Donald Sterling's "racism" have any bearing on Michael Jordan, Steve Ballmer or Mark Cuban? Wouldn't it be far more reasonable to consider the history of this specific group with regard to alcohol related offenses with other college students of the same University (cause we have that history)? It's well known that the ABC has been attempting to crack down on underage drinking on Virginia colleges and universities, and this is just another example of that. The Virginia ABC ended up paying out $200k to her for their inappropriateness there, and I expect they will do something similar here.Being ***** doesn't automatically mean you're also racist.

Yeah I think if people knew that about Virginia ABC that would be equally justified in recognizing that history here. But they don't.

Boom! And that's my problem. Instead of actually looking at the situation rationally and realizing that there is already a history of this particular agency far overstepping their bounds in the enforcement of underage drinking prevention, they immediately go into claiming racism....which only exacerbates issues.

Bingo. It's the ####### media. They stopped being about truth many years ago. All they want to do now is sensationalize stories to get clicks, which is what ultimately lines their pockets. They are now creating stories and controversies rather than reporting on them. It's pretty ####### shameful.

 

[Hang 10]

The problems with situations like this UVA thing is that people are so quick to assume the motive that it's almost secondary to find out if a crime has even been committed. It's like a witch hunt. I think that's what makes these stories so polarizing.

Why can't we just establish if a crime has been committed first? I think most people are against excessive police force. I'm just not sure why story always has to focus on if the cop is ####### or a racist #######.

 

[njherdfan]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

I reject that out of hand. Prejudice of all kinds is recursive. All with a stake in the matter have to drop the tug-of-war rope simultaneously.

Behavioral/societal changes will never themselves rid America of racism. It will, frankly, require forgetting. And even should that happen, some other form of prejudice will step into the breach.

I think, first, it will require white America acknowledging how prevalent racism still is, which I think most white Americans are very unwilling to do. As an example, with the frat kids at Oklahoma, everyone can agree that their chant was awful. However, those kids didn't run around in public saying that, but I'm sure they did a ton of things motivated by their racism that many white people would say weren't racist.

We've made great progress in eliminating blatant racism, but there are still a ton of racist people, and their racism is much more subtle now. It's unfortunate, and I don't think people will be able to change until they're willing to examine their own behaviors.

 

[Bucky86]

I met my first legit racist under the age of 25 this weekend. He's dating my friends girlfriends little sister and was visiting them for the weekend. He's from Texas. Comes from money. Within an hour of meeting I learned from his own mouth that he hates all muslims because their religion promotes terrorism(leaving the grocery store we saw women wearing hijabs). He also said he hated Jews.(can't remember what brought this up) I left before he got into his opinions about black people.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

The problems with situations like this UVA thing is that people are so quick to assume the motive that it's almost secondary to find out if a crime has even been committed. It's like a witch hunt. I think that's what makes these stories so polarizing.

Why can't we just establish if a crime has been committed first? I think most people are against excessive police force. I'm just not sure why story always has to focus on if the cop is ####### or a racist #######.

Its not necessarily about if a crime was committed. the problem is that based on similar crimes committed, blacks have a higher tendency to be arrested or be victim to excessive force, or be convicted. The problem is why this is the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

 

[Hang 10]

The problems with situations like this UVA thing is that people are so quick to assume the motive that it's almost secondary to find out if a crime has even been committed. It's like a witch hunt. I think that's what makes these stories so polarizing.

Why can't we just establish if a crime has been committed first? I think most people are against excessive police force. I'm just not sure why story always has to focus on if the cop is ####### or a racist #######.

Its not necessarily about if a crime was committed. the problem is that based on similar crimes committed, blacks have a higher tendency to be arrested or be victim to excessive force, or be convicted. The problem is why this is the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

But it should be about the crime that was or wasn't committed. Instead the story is about a motive that as discussed will be almost impossible to prove either way.

 

[Courtjester]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Good god Tim, even for you this is an unbelievable statement. So the burden is on all of us white guys--even the ones that live their life in a non racist manner to change?

Tobias loves to talk about overwhelming evidence of racist cops. But guess what, the larger, overwhelming number is?? The number of African Americans that ACTUALLY BREAK THE LAW and enter guilty pleas after being caught doing it. Oh wait, here it comes let make excuses for that as well. They are poor, they have no positive male role models in their life. 300 years ago really bad things happened that 99% of the people alive had nothing to do with. Excuses can be made for why anyone, regardless of color, breaks the law?

Tim, if you want true and honest change in this country stop trying to hand out crutches to every black person in this country. Call out the race baiters on both sides of the aisle and that includes media when they get the story wrong. Create economic policies that benefit everyone with no difference of color. Train law enforcement to do a better job with ALL people. Punish and call out true racism when it is found to be true not "assumed". Modify current drug laws that reduce punishments for minor offenses and increase punishments for illegal gun ownership that includes gang members. Continue to promote family planning in lower income communities and if there isn't a program--create one. Feel free to add to this list....

I have a very colorful family tree--my great niece is being born tomorrow and she is half-African American and I will love her like my 2 other African American nieces. I went to a high school where I was the minority and my friends were mostly of color, but we never saw that, we just were what we were. However, racism is on the rise in this country because of this so called white guilty that is being peddled by every liberal that can sell it. We are getting to a point that if a black man's food is served later in a restaurant, we have to assume it is because of his race, but if the same situation happens to a white guy, oh, it is just a bad waiter.

Tim, you are right, change is needed, but that burden needs to be borne by all not just one side.

 

[Gawain]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/philly-teens-murdered-married-dad-failed-robbery-cops-article-1.2156313

I'm posting this because the NYDN doesn't give any sort of racial identification in this case, whereas in their article about the UVA incident, there's a big racial component. Either race is important, or it isn't.

 

[General Tso]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Good god Tim, even for you this is an unbelievable statement. So the burden is on all of us white guys--even the ones that live their life in a non racist manner to change?Tobias loves to talk about overwhelming evidence of racist cops. But guess what, the larger, overwhelming number is?? The number of African Americans that ACTUALLY BREAK THE LAW and enter guilty pleas after being caught doing it. Oh wait, here it comes let make excuses for that as well. They are poor, they have no positive male role models in their life. 300 years ago really bad things happened that 99% of the people alive had nothing to do with. Excuses can be made for why anyone, regardless of color, breaks the law?

Tim, if you want true and honest change in this country stop trying to hand out crutches to every black person in this country. Call out the race baiters on both sides of the aisle and that includes media when they get the story wrong. Create economic policies that benefit everyone with no difference of color. Train law enforcement to do a better job with ALL people. Punish and call out true racism when it is found to be true not "assumed". Modify current drug laws that reduce punishments for minor offenses and increase punishments for illegal gun ownership that includes gang members. Continue to promote family planning in lower income communities and if there isn't a program--create one. Feel free to add to this list....

I have a very colorful family tree--my great niece is being born tomorrow and she is half-African American and I will love her like my 2 other African American nieces. I went to a high school where I was the minority and my friends were mostly of color, but we never saw that, we just were what we were. However, racism is on the rise in this country because of this so called white guilty that is being peddled by every liberal that can sell it. We are getting to a point that if a black man's food is served later in a restaurant, we have to assume it is because of his race, but if the same situation happens to a white guy, oh, it is just a bad waiter.

Tim, you are right, change is needed, but that burden needs to be borne by all not just one side.

very well said.

 

[timschochet]

Courtjester, excellent post. If I respond to it further in this thread I will be breaking a promise I made to myself. So I'm going to respond to it in my own thread. I hope you'll join me there and continue the discussion (along with anyone else who wants to.)

 

[TobiasFunke]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Good god Tim, even for you this is an unbelievable statement. So the burden is on all of us white guys--even the ones that live their life in a non racist manner to change?

Tobias loves to talk about overwhelming evidence of racist cops. But guess what, the larger, overwhelming number is?? The number of African Americans that ACTUALLY BREAK THE LAW and enter guilty pleas after being caught doing it. Oh wait, here it comes let make excuses for that as well. They are poor, they have no positive male role models in their life. 300 years ago really bad things happened that 99% of the people alive had nothing to do with. Excuses can be made for why anyone, regardless of color, breaks the law?

Tim, if you want true and honest change in this country stop trying to hand out crutches to every black person in this country. Call out the race baiters on both sides of the aisle and that includes media when they get the story wrong. Create economic policies that benefit everyone with no difference of color. Train law enforcement to do a better job with ALL people. Punish and call out true racism when it is found to be true not "assumed". Modify current drug laws that reduce punishments for minor offenses and increase punishments for illegal gun ownership that includes gang members. Continue to promote family planning in lower income communities and if there isn't a program--create one. Feel free to add to this list....

I have a very colorful family tree--my great niece is being born tomorrow and she is half-African American and I will love her like my 2 other African American nieces. I went to a high school where I was the minority and my friends were mostly of color, but we never saw that, we just were what we were. However, racism is on the rise in this country because of this so called white guilty that is being peddled by every liberal that can sell it. We are getting to a point that if a black man's food is served later in a restaurant, we have to assume it is because of his race, but if the same situation happens to a white guy, oh, it is just a bad waiter.

Tim, you are right, change is needed, but that burden needs to be borne by all not just one side.

The bolded is a real problem. You're hardly the first to say something like this, and it shows tremendous ignorance of our country's recent history.

Redlining (google it if you're not familiar) wasn't 300 years ago. Predatory lending wasn't 300 years ago. The various numbers I've mentioned before showing discriminatory policing independent of higher crime rates in the black community aren't 300 years ago. This is stuff that happened recently and in many cases is still happening. There are discriminatory lending cases that settled in the last year or two. Hell, there are a ton of people who post on this board who were alive when discrimination was out in the open and accepted in the south. Here's a timely fun fact for NCAA tournament time- people who were born when Kentucky brought an all-white team to the Final Four because their fans were not yet ready to accept cheering for black people aren't even 50 years old yet. Think about how recent that is. There's people who are old enough to remember that who are still working, some of them in positions of power. Many of the fans whose racism triggered that discrimination are still alive. There's probably some in the stands this week.

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

 

[CowboysFromHell]

Hey look guys, if you want blacks (and liberals) to change their automatic presumption of racism then you need to eliminate all the actual racism that still goes on. Until you do, don't expect them not to be suspicious of it. The burden is on all of us not on them.

Good god Tim, even for you this is an unbelievable statement. So the burden is on all of us white guys--even the ones that live their life in a non racist manner to change?

Tobias loves to talk about overwhelming evidence of racist cops. But guess what, the larger, overwhelming number is?? The number of African Americans that ACTUALLY BREAK THE LAW and enter guilty pleas after being caught doing it. Oh wait, here it comes let make excuses for that as well. They are poor, they have no positive male role models in their life. 300 years ago really bad things happened that 99% of the people alive had nothing to do with. Excuses can be made for why anyone, regardless of color, breaks the law?

Tim, if you want true and honest change in this country stop trying to hand out crutches to every black person in this country. Call out the race baiters on both sides of the aisle and that includes media when they get the story wrong. Create economic policies that benefit everyone with no difference of color. Train law enforcement to do a better job with ALL people. Punish and call out true racism when it is found to be true not "assumed". Modify current drug laws that reduce punishments for minor offenses and increase punishments for illegal gun ownership that includes gang members. Continue to promote family planning in lower income communities and if there isn't a program--create one. Feel free to add to this list....

I have a very colorful family tree--my great niece is being born tomorrow and she is half-African American and I will love her like my 2 other African American nieces. I went to a high school where I was the minority and my friends were mostly of color, but we never saw that, we just were what we were. However, racism is on the rise in this country because of this so called white guilty that is being peddled by every liberal that can sell it. We are getting to a point that if a black man's food is served later in a restaurant, we have to assume it is because of his race, but if the same situation happens to a white guy, oh, it is just a bad waiter.

Tim, you are right, change is needed, but that burden needs to be borne by all not just one side.

The bolded is a real problem. You're hardly the first to say something like this, and it shows tremendous ignorance of our country's recent history.

Redlining (google it if you're not familiar) wasn't 300 years ago. Predatory lending wasn't 300 years ago. The various numbers I've mentioned before showing discriminatory policing independent of higher crime rates in the black community aren't 300 years ago. This is stuff that happened recently and in many cases is still happening. There are discriminatory lending cases that settled in the last year or two. Hell, there are a ton of people who post on this board who were alive when discrimination was out in the open and accepted in the south. Here's a timely fun fact for NCAA tournament time- people who were born when Kentucky brought an all-white team to the Final Four because their fans were not yet ready to accept cheering for black people aren't even 50 years old yet. Think about how recent that is. There's people who are old enough to remember that who are still working, some of them in positions of power. Many of the fans whose racism triggered that discrimination are still alive. There's probably some in the stands this week.

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

Good post. To answer your last question: what do I attribute it to? I'll agree race and discrimination are part of it, but I'd add to that: poverty, lack of male role models, education. You could of course argue that all of those are outcomes of racial discrimination, and that's fine. But I think we do need to recognize those as factors, because its those things that need to be addressed to fix the problems. You can't just say it's racism, end of story. That doesn't, in and of itself, help anything.

 

[matttyl]

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

So are you acknowledging those higher crime rates? I'm sure our country's history plays a part sure - but there are many factors. This isn't something that can be attributed to one and only one cause.

High school graduation rates in this country are 15.6% lower for black students than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does the lack of a high school diploma lead to a lower socioeconomic standing, which can then lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Divorce rates in this country are higher for black marriages than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a divorced home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/philly-teens-murdered-married-dad-failed-robbery-cops-article-1.2156313

I'm posting this because the NYDN doesn't give any sort of racial identification in this case, whereas in their article about the UVA incident, there's a big racial component. Either race is important, or it isn't.

It appears to only be important when police officers have confrontations with black people. Other than that killing is just killing.

 

[Gawain]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

 

[Gawain]

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/philly-teens-murdered-married-dad-failed-robbery-cops-article-1.2156313

I'm posting this because the NYDN doesn't give any sort of racial identification in this case, whereas in their article about the UVA incident, there's a big racial component. Either race is important, or it isn't.

It appears to only be important when police officers have confrontations with black people. Other than that killing is just killing.

Then the whole policy is dumb. The UVA problem looks a lot more like a deep seated problem in the ABC and their enforcement than a racial component. By immediately jumping to race, other possibilities are diminished and root causes are missed (see the Alabama suicide that the FBI was investigating immediately).

 

[Sweet J]

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

So are you acknowledging those higher crime rates? I'm sure our country's history plays a part sure - but there are many factors. This isn't something that can be attributed to one and only one cause.

High school graduation rates in this country are 15.6% lower for black students than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does the lack of a high school diploma lead to a lower socioeconomic standing, which can then lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Divorce rates in this country are higher for black marriages than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a divorced home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

This post makes me sad for this country.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

This. Being poor, being forced to live in an impoverished, violent community, having access to poor education, being regularly profiled and subject to drug laws that disproportionately affect blacks.... etc. this stuff all factors into why there are more single family households in these neighborhood, why they are arrested more, why the crime stats are higher and thus the conviction rates and why the people cant leave those neighborhoods and why they may feel they have no chance of survival without going the gang route. Also do not discount what this type of situation does to a community after decades.

Not saying they dont have a part in fixing things. but the above are huge factors in the issues going on there.

 

[matttyl]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

I agree, but those are things that can't really be attributed to "our country's history and ongoing discrimination", can they?

 

[kentric]

Right. But that doesn't mean every confrontation = racism. First there would have to be some sort of questionable behavior on the part of the officer (that was what I was getting at with the whole bit about the best way to avoid being called a racist ###hole is to not be an ###hole). And second, wondering if race played a factor is not the same as concluding that it did.

So then you agree that we shouldn't immediately have article entitled "Black UVA student beaten by police". You have to admit that articles with those titles only add to any racial tensions already in place, and are irresponsible at best.

No, there's nothing wrong with that title (assuming he was actually beaten). It doesn't allege racism, it simply states facts and notes that the student was black because it recognizes that the incident is going to lead some to allege that race played a factor in how the cop behaved, given that the cops' behavior appears at first glance to be less than stellar. I'd consider that headline akin to "wondering if race played a factor"- which as I said I'm fine with- not "concluding that it did"- which would bother me.

So, it doesn't allege racism, it just encourages others to allege racism? Awesome defense.

Defense? Do you think I wrote the headline?

Love the blame the media attitude here. Here's a thought- how about blaming the thousands in law enforcement whose latent or express racial biases have led people to question their peers? Don't they bear just a little more responsibility for this mess than some intern at CNN who crafts innocuous headlines that nod to a racial component where the student and others have already raised it? I've been in this thread for months and I've never heard one of the people who argue with me about this stuff assign those cops one iota of blame.

Totally disagree with your statement on the media. You put the blame at law enforcement rather than the media for an individual event. There was no need to state the student was black. By stating that, it raises the question of racism. At the time the article came up, there was nothing to suggest the event was due to racism. The media gets ahold of it and pushes the racist tone of the event.

While I agree that there is evidence that certain law enforcement departments have racist histories, the media should not be leading people to immediately assume that racism was the root cause of individual events without having evidence suggesting that.

 

[matttyl]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

This. Being poor, being forced to live in an impoverished, violent community, having access to poor education, being regularly profiled and subject to drug laws that disproportionately affect blacks.... etc. this stuff all factors into why there are more single family households in these neighborhood, why they are arrested more, why the crime stats are higher and thus the conviction rates and why the people cant leave those neighborhoods and why they may feel they have no chance of survival without going the gang route. Also do not discount what this type of situation does to a community after decades.

Not saying they dont have a part in fixing things. but the above are huge factors in the issues going on there.

And are all of those factors due to "our country's history and ongoing discrimination"?

 

[Gawain]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

I agree, but those are things that can't really be attributed to "our country's history and ongoing discrimination", can they?

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

 

[TobiasFunke]

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

So are you acknowledging those higher crime rates? I'm sure our country's history plays a part sure - but there are many factors. This isn't something that can be attributed to one and only one cause.

High school graduation rates in this country are 15.6% lower for black students than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does the lack of a high school diploma lead to a lower socioeconomic standing, which can then lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Divorce rates in this country are higher for black marriages than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a divorced home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

 

[matttyl]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

 

[kentric]

The problems with situations like this UVA thing is that people are so quick to assume the motive that it's almost secondary to find out if a crime has even been committed. It's like a witch hunt. I think that's what makes these stories so polarizing.

Why can't we just establish if a crime has been committed first? I think most people are against excessive police force. I'm just not sure why story always has to focus on if the cop is ####### or a racist #######.

Its not necessarily about if a crime was committed. the problem is that based on similar crimes committed, blacks have a higher tendency to be arrested or be victim to excessive force, or be convicted. The problem is why this is the case.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/06/04/the-blackwhite-marijuana-arrest-gap-in-nine-charts/

I'm sure most rational people will agree that racism still exists in this country. I personally believe that pro-active actions toward reducing (you can't eliminate racism) racist activity in both the law enforcement and judicial systems. Taking reactive measures (such as toward NJ state police after it was proven blacks were treated differently than whites) is no longer acceptable. Unfortunately, this will require Federal Gov't actions.

What I don't agree with is that race is automatically assumed in individual events based on the victim/aggressor being black/white. Individual events need to be proven/unproven before racism is cited. Taking a stance of racism just based on the race of the victim/aggressor before knowing the events leading up to the confrontation just exascerbates the race problem.

 

[TobiasFunke]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

Terrible idea. Drugs are super fun.

 

[jonessed]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

This. Being poor, being forced to live in an impoverished, violent community, having access to poor education, being regularly profiled and subject to drug laws that disproportionately affect blacks.... etc. this stuff all factors into why there are more single family households in these neighborhood, why they are arrested more, why the crime stats are higher and thus the conviction rates and why the people cant leave those neighborhoods and why they may feel they have no chance of survival without going the gang route. Also do not discount what this type of situation does to a community after decades.Not saying they dont have a part in fixing things. but the above are huge factors in the issues going on there.

If a dad doesn't want to stick around and be a father that's on him. Creating a culture where personal responsibility is anathema is counter-productive. No government system is going to be able to fix having a crappy father.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

A lot of this is from the idiotic drug laws the US still has in place.

Black incarceration and gang membership is driven by marijuana and the anti-Crack policies of the 80's.

Legalization and rehabilitation would go a long way to eliminating this problem.

This. Being poor, being forced to live in an impoverished, violent community, having access to poor education, being regularly profiled and subject to drug laws that disproportionately affect blacks.... etc. this stuff all factors into why there are more single family households in these neighborhood, why they are arrested more, why the crime stats are higher and thus the conviction rates and why the people cant leave those neighborhoods and why they may feel they have no chance of survival without going the gang route. Also do not discount what this type of situation does to a community after decades.

Not saying they dont have a part in fixing things. but the above are huge factors in the issues going on there.

And are all of those factors due to "our country's history and ongoing discrimination"?

Well, i think those are symptoms of being a group that has been oppressed for many many years(decades even). So yes. Our countries history led to these communities starting out impoverished and over time, many laws and bias' have systematically increased the dysfunction in these communities. So i absolutely think that history as well as ongoing unconscious racism has an affect on the symptoms and dysfunction we see today in some of these communities..

 

[matttyl]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

 

[Hang 10]

And to ask the inevitable follow-up question: if you don't think the higher crime rates among black people that you cited are not a product of our country's history and ongoing discrimination, then to what do you attribute it? Do you think the color of one's skin makes one predisposed to commit crimes?

So are you acknowledging those higher crime rates? I'm sure our country's history plays a part sure - but there are many factors. This isn't something that can be attributed to one and only one cause. High school graduation rates in this country are 15.6% lower for black students than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does the lack of a high school diploma lead to a lower socioeconomic standing, which can then lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Divorce rates in this country are higher for black marriages than for white. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a divorced home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Being raised by a single parent is 2.7x as likely for a black child than for a white child. That data says that 2/3rds of black children will be raised in a one parent household Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does coming from a single parent home lead to a higher propensity to commit crime? I think the stat is that 70% of all boys in the criminal justice system come from single parent homes.

Roughly 3x as many gang members are black than are white - given the fact that the young white population is much larger than the young black population that is a huge disparity. Can that be attributed to our country's history and ongoing discrimination? Maybe in part, but definitely not in whole. Does being in a gang lead one to a higher propensity to commit crime?

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

The war on poverty is a big factor in the amount of broken homes in black community. The government check has taken the place of the fathers in many cases.

 

[matttyl]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

Terrible idea. Drugs are super fun.

Then understand the possible repercussions of those actions - don't just blame the system.

 

[matttyl]

Well, i think those are symptoms of being a group that has been oppressed for many many years(decades even). So yes. Our countries history led to these communities starting out impoverished and over time, many laws and bias' have systematically increased the dysfunction in these communities. So i absolutely think that history as well as ongoing unconscious racism has an affect on the symptoms and dysfunction we see today in some of these communities..

And to a point I agree - but not 100%. And I think you agree with that due to your working of "has an affect", rather than "is the sole cause of".

 

[Sweet J]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

So how about you answer the question?

 

[Rayderr]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

 

[TobiasFunke]

IIRC, the pot policy was racist, but geared more towards Mexicans than any other group.

The sentencing differences between coke and crack likely were driven by stereotypes during the 80s and I do believe they are discriminatory.

The bigger issue is how folks are sentenced, which I believe is a color problem as well, but the relevant color is green.

Someone who is picked up with a bit of pot and can hire an attorney has a great chance of having the charge dropped, suspended or made conditional. Someone with a PD who is poor won't have a good grasp of the law, won't know all options and is likely to take a deal that will follow them the rest of their lives.

Here's a crazy idea....don't do drugs?

Terrible idea. Drugs are super fun.

Then understand the possible repercussions of those actions - don't just blame the system.

I was just cracking a joke. However, while personal responsibility is a fine argument with respect to the individual, it's a silly one in the aggregate. We can say "don't do drugs" or "don't drive drunk," but in the aggregate, some people are going to do those things. So you also need to know why they're doing it. And in cases where the punishments don't seem to fit the crime and have a discriminatory effect, we can ask why and we can point to that as existing discrimination that impacts the welfare of different communities.

To use your fine state as an example- anyone with a lick of common sense would presumably agree that driving drunk is a far worse crime than possession of cocaine or even heroin; one that has greater potential to destroy someone's life and perhaps more importantly one that has FAR greater potential to destroy the lives of friends, family and innocent people. Yet Virginia punishes first offense DUIs with 5 days in prison and a $250 fine, while simple possession charge gets you either not less than one year or up to one year + a $2,500 fine.

Guess which of those crimes committed with more frequency by minorities and which is committed with more frequency by white males?

 

[Sweet J]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

This is just silly. You understand that you can have a global problem and have outlers, right?

 

[Hang 10]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

And how come the asianed seem to do so well?

 

[TobiasFunke]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

And how come the asianed seem to do so well?

Because almost none of the problems that have been discussed here apply to most Asians. They weren't subjected to redlining. They're not targeted by predatory lending or discriminatory sentencing laws. A decent percentage of them arrive in this country with at least a modicum of education and/or financial resources.

 

[Hang 10]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

And how come the asianed seem to do so well?

Because almost none of the problems that have been discussed here apply to most Asians. They weren't subjected to redlining. They're not targeted by predatory lending or discriminatory sentencing laws. A decent percentage of them arrive in this country with at least a modicum of education and/or financial resources.

And a good portion of them were treated like sub humans and used as slave labor to build the railroads. We even put them interment camps in the 40's. I bet if they weren't successful those would makes some pretty decent crutches for them to fall back on.

 

[kentric]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Socio-economic issues contribute to the percentage of blacks crime to the overall population of blacks being higher than white crime as a percentage of the white population. It shouldn't (and doesn't) reflect a higher sentencing time for blacks than whites for similar crimes.

 

[Rayderr]

So, if our racist history is what's causing all the problems for the black community, how have some succeeded? And why can't others follow the same path?

This is just silly. You understand that you can have a global problem and have outlers, right?

There are more than just "outliers." 27% of blacks live in poverty. While that number still needs to come down, that means 73% are above the poverty line. Are those 73% the outliers? 19% of blacks over the age of 25 have a bachelor's degree. Is a fifth of the population just "outliers" (again number should raise and is likely being held down by those that would've been college age in the 60's or earlier and didn't attend because of some real racism. Also, I personally don't think degree necessary = success, but it's is worth noting.) Black home ownership is 46%. A little too much to be outliers right?

 

[matttyl]

To use your fine state as an example- anyone with a lick of common sense would presumably agree that driving drunk is a far worse crime than possession of cocaine or even heroin; one that has greater potential to destroy someone's life and perhaps more importantly one that has FAR greater potential to destroy the lives of friends, family and innocent people. Yet Virginia punishes first offense DUIs with 5 days in prison and a $250 fine, while simple possession charge gets you either not less than one year or up to one year + a $2,500 fine.

Guess which of those crimes committed with more frequency by minorities and which is committed with more frequency by white males?

Maybe I'm reading the wrong lines from your links, but...

DUI - MINIMUM 5 days in jail, MINIMUM $250 fine, and a 1 year license suspension.

Possession of "schedule 3,4 or 5" (I don't know, but assume that would be the cocaine or heroin you referenced) - NOT MORE than 12 months, and a fine of NOT MORE than $2,500.

Very conceivable that a DUI could land you with a longer jail sentence and a larger fine than a possession charge by those definitions. I'm not familiar with either, though - never used drugs, never had a DUI. But you go ahead and continue blaming the system rather than the guy doing one of those crimes.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

 

[PinkydaPimp]

Well, i think those are symptoms of being a group that has been oppressed for many many years(decades even). So yes. Our countries history led to these communities starting out impoverished and over time, many laws and bias' have systematically increased the dysfunction in these communities. So i absolutely think that history as well as ongoing unconscious racism has an affect on the symptoms and dysfunction we see today in some of these communities..

And to a point I agree - but not 100%. And I think you agree with that due to your working of "has an affect", rather than "is the sole cause of".

oh absolutely.

 

[TobiasFunke]

To use your fine state as an example- anyone with a lick of common sense would presumably agree that driving drunk is a far worse crime than possession of cocaine or even heroin; one that has greater potential to destroy someone's life and perhaps more importantly one that has FAR greater potential to destroy the lives of friends, family and innocent people. Yet Virginia punishes first offense DUIs with 5 days in prison and a $250 fine, while simple possession charge gets you either not less than one year or up to one year + a $2,500 fine.

Guess which of those crimes committed with more frequency by minorities and which is committed with more frequency by white males?

Maybe I'm reading the wrong lines from your links, but...

DUI - MINIMUM 5 days in jail, MINIMUM $250 fine, and a 1 year license suspension.

Possession of "schedule 3,4 or 5" (I don't know, but assume that would be the cocaine or heroin you referenced) - NOT MORE than 12 months, and a fine of NOT MORE than $2,500.

Very conceivable that a DUI could land you with a longer jail sentence and a larger fine than a possession charge by those definitions. I'm not familiar with either, though - never used drugs, never had a DUI. But you go ahead and continue blaming the system rather than the guy doing one of those crimes.

Yes, you're reading wrong, or at least applying it wrong. Heroin and Cocaine and Schedule 1 and 2 drugs.

You can both blame the system in the aggregate and hope for personal responsibility on the individual level. For example if they criminalized cheating at golf with excessive fines and jail time I could simultaneously not cheat at golf and also wonder WTF kind of stupid law they'd enacted and whether they were targeting middle-aged white men with it.

 

[humpback]

Ok, so if you think that our history and ongoing discrimination explains these statistics "maybe in part but not in whole," how do you explain the whole? Let's hear it. You know I think it's 100% a product of our history and ongoing discrimination, so let's hear some explanations from people who don't think that's the case.

And don't just answer that it's problems with "attitudes of the black community." That's just begging the question. If that is indeed part of your answer, why do you think their attitudes are different? Surely its not because you think they're fundamentally different than white people on the inside, is it?

Wow do you really, really love to race bait!!!

You really think our country's history and current ongoing discrimination are leading to the out-of-wedlock birth rate among blacks of 72 percent, compared to 54 percent for Hispanics and 29 percent for whites? Really? Personally I believe that all 3 of those numbers are too high, but some of them are 2-3x higher than others. How can you possibly not only link those, but do so at "100%"?

Yes, that's just another stat - but I believe (as I think many here do) that all of these things are leading to themselves. If you were born out of wedlock, you're thus more likely to only have one parent at home, and thus you're more likely to not graduate from high school, and you're thus more likely to join a gang and on and on....

Yes. I think that statistic and the other ones you cited are directly tied to socioeconomic conditions, which are directly tied to our history and ongoing discrimination. 100%.

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

No matter what he says you are just going to turn around and blame that on our history and ongoing discrimination, so what's the point?

 

[matttyl]

You keep ducking the question- if you think there's factors causing these disparities other than history and ongoing discrimination, what are they? Stop ducking it and explain to me where you think these disparities come from.

I have, but that's not the answer you want to hear. These things lead to themselves. When you don't get a high school diploma, you're going to end up in a lower socioeconomic situation. Why did you not graduate from high school? Was it due to being in a single parent household? Were you in a single parent household because you were born out of wedlock?

All of these these things are connected - and yes some of it can and should be attributed back to our country's unfortunate history and even to the racism/discrimination of today - but it's not 100% - even Pinkydapimp agrees with that. Some of it can be attributed to the media and it's propensity to involve race wherever it can, only adding to tensions and existing issues. There are other factors as well.