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Making A Murderer (Netflix) (Spoilers) (4 Viewers)

so apparently there WAS some investigation into Hillegas....lol...lot of info for someone who wasn't looked at as a suspect....

 
Politician Spock said:
They had broken up and gotten back together numerous times over the past five years. At the time of her murder, they were broken up again, and their relationship was described as "abusive". 

That alone is not enough to suspect him of the murder (although it is enough to consider him a potential suspect). But with additional evidence on top of their on and off again abusive relationship, he should have been seriously investigated. There was sufficient evidence, but again, as has been said time and time and time again in this thread, the police were so focused on wanting it to be Avery, they ignored the evidence pointing to Hillegas.

Evidence that should have led to an investigation of Hillegas:

1) He lied to police. Halbach's car had a broken blinker light. Hillegas told police that it was damaged months before her disappearance and that Halbach had filed an insurance claim, but didn't use the money to repair the blinker. The insurance company however says no such claim was ever made. What was Hillegas trying to hide by lying about the broken blinker? 

2) Dr. Larry Blum, a pathologist from Rockford, Ill., reviewed television news footage showing Hillegas with several scratches to his hands as he was organizing volunteer search efforts. "It is my opinion, to a reasonable degree of scientific certainty in the field of forensic pathology, that Mr. Hillegas' right hand ... appears discolored ... the abrasions I observed on the back of Mr. Hillegas' left hand are consistent with scratches inflicted by fingernails."

3) During the searches, volunteers were used. Hillegas used a fake name to be part of the volunteer search teams, using at least once the name Mr. Kilgus. On Nov 7th, 2005 he accessed the Avery property without signing in at the command post. He was seen on the property, but with no records of his arrival, no one knows how long he was there or what he had brought with him. It was after this date that much of the evidence (bones, etc..) were found, despite the search efforts being much more vigorous Nov 5th and 6th that turned up nothing. 

4) Pam Sturm, the person who found the Rav4, conferred with Hillegas and Scott Bloedorn, a close friend of Hillegas, who lived with Halbach at the time of her disappearance, just hours before locating the vehicle. 

5) He has no alibi for his activities from Oct 31st to Nov 4th. 

Again, this is in no way suggesting that he is a MORE LIKELY suspect than Avery. It is saying the police failed to give Hilegas the attention he deserved as a suspect. 

I don't think it could ever be proven that Avery is innocent, but clearly given the cluster#### the police turned the investigation into due to the bias they had against him, he's not guilty beyond reasonable doubt. He should be free, and that may mean a killer gets to go free. But beyond reasonable doubt is the bar we've set before we lock people up for murder. 
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Who described their relationship as "abusive"?  

1. The light;

"S/A Fassbender ultimately spoke with Ryan Hillegas, a friend of Teresa Halbach's. Hillegas did some checking with family and friends and reported back to S/A Fassbender that Halbach had, in fact, damaged the parking light area of her car and actually made an insurance claim. Hillegas advised that Halbach took a cash payout for the damage and had not repaired it".  

That's the big lie to police.  Also, it doesn't say anything about "months" before.  Do you have a cite for that anywhere?  Could it be that maybe the light had been knocked out and Theresa was planning to file a claim but no one really knew where she was in the process and were speculating?  Just FYI, Halbach made a call to an insurance company just days before she disappeared. 

2. A grainy video showing something "consistent with" fingernail scratches, doesn't make them fingernail scratches.  In fact it doesn't even make them scratches necessarily.

3. The name Kilgus appears on a hand-written map as "Ryan Kilgus Group" and is in different hand-writing than that of whoever drew the map.  It's not clear at all that Hillegas either drew the map or wrote "Ryan Kilgus Group" on the paper.  If he did select as a fake name his own first name and a last name that sounds almost exactly like his own, he's a bigger idiot than Avery.

As for his access to the property;

 Just so we're clear Mr. -- I'm sorry. Just so
10 we're clear, Mr. Hillegas, the area that you were
11 allowed access to was the outside of the Avery
12 property itself, in other words, the surrounding
13 properties, not within the salvage property; is
14 that true?
15 A. Yes.

4.  Pam Sturm was part of the search team and Hillegas and Bloedorn were directing the search teams.  Not exactly a red-flag that they might have "conferred". 

5.  How can you say he has no alibi for 4 days?  Several of the activities you cite here would constitute at least partial alibis during those days.    

 
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If I am joining the search party and some dude with the clipboard says whats your name and I say Ryan Hillegas....I can see pretty easy how he might have written down Ryan Kilgus...now if Hillegas himself wrote down Kilgus, thats a different story...

 
Stinkin Ref said:
If I am joining the search party and some dude with the clipboard says whats your name and I say Ryan Hillegas....I can see pretty easy how he might have written down Ryan Kilgus...now if Hillegas himself wrote down Kilgus, thats a different story...
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It seems more likely that it was written by someone from law enforcement who was cataloging the map into evidence, so it may not even be Hillegas they were talking to, but another member of his "group".

http://i.imgur.com/u5G8oQZ.png

 
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I love the argument that it would be too much work to frame him. The same law enforcement agency that had a police sketch drawn using an old SA mug shot as a template and that one dude had it framed and hanging in his office even after SA was exonerated

 
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Stinkin Ref said:
@cockroach...still waiting on a response to this one too....your comment "Hillegas on the other hand"....seems to indicate you think he had motive and wanted her dead....I missed that part so was wondering if you could expand....assuming it has to be more than "he seemed a little sketchy".... 
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You really need me to elaborate on why the guy she dumped that kept trying to hang around in her life had motive to kill her?  It's one of the most (if not THE) commonest murder scenarios throughout history.

On access to the property:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRa7yPDjBzk

I'm sure you'll take those two young men on their word.  I do not.  The hard swallows, nervous darting looks. I doesn't sound like they're being very honest at all.

On the pword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wT9DQhUgs

On his lack interrogation:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V6ZW2ggw7g

 
cockroach said:
You really need me to elaborate on why the guy she dumped that kept trying to hang around in her life had motive to kill her?  It's one of the most (if not THE) commonest murder scenarios throughout history.

On access to the property:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRa7yPDjBzk

I'm sure you'll take those two young men on their word.  I do not.  The hard swallows, nervous darting looks. I doesn't sound like they're being very honest at all.

On the pword: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5wT9DQhUgs

On his lack interrogation:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8V6ZW2ggw7g
Click to expand...
Let's not forget that there's good evidence that Halbach left the Avery property alive. 

It was Dassey's forced "confession" that says she didn't. 

 
cockroach said:
You really need me to elaborate on why the guy she dumped that kept trying to hang around in her life had motive to kill her?  It's one of the most (if not THE) commonest murder scenarios throughout history.

On access to the property:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRa7yPDjBzk

I'm sure you'll take those two young men on their word.  I do not.  The hard swallows, nervous darting looks. I doesn't sound like they're being very honest at all.
Click to expand...
So Theresa's brother was involved too?  

 
parrot said:
What good evidence is that?  
Click to expand...
On November 6, 2005, Bobby Dassey’s older brother Bryan told Wisconsin Department of Justice officials that Bobby had told him in the days prior that he saw Halbach leave the Averys’ property.

In an affidavit to Avery’s lawyers, Bryan Dassey said: “I distinctly remember Bobby telling me, ‘Steven could not have killed her because I saw her leave the property on October 31, 2005.’”

Witness has come forward to say they saw Halbach’s RAV4 ”parked at the turnaround at State Highway 147 and the East Twin River Bridge” on both November 4 and November 5, 2005. The car was found on the Avery property on November 5. The witness says they reported seeing the car to Manitowoc County Sheriff's Department Sergeant Andy Colborn, but the officer did not prepare a report documenting the conversation.

 
parrot said:
So Theresa's brother was involved too?  
Click to expand...
Her cousin is Pam Sturm.  I don't think she or Ryan are telling the "truth, whole truth and nothing but" in their testimonies at trial.  That, among a host of other factors, gives me reasonable doubt in this case. 

 
parrot said:
1. The light;

"S/A Fassbender ultimately spoke with Ryan Hillegas, a friend of Teresa Halbach's. Hillegas did some checking with family and friends and reported back to S/A Fassbender that Halbach had, in fact, damaged the parking light area of her car and actually made an insurance claim. Hillegas advised that Halbach took a cash payout for the damage and had not repaired it".  

That's the big lie to police.  Also, it doesn't say anything about "months" before.  Do you have a cite for that anywhere?  Could it be that maybe the light had been knocked out and Theresa was planning to file a claim but no one really knew where she was in the process and were speculating?  Just FYI, Halbach made a call to an insurance company just days before she disappeared. 
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He said she took a cash payout from the insurance company. "Months" is pretty typical to get an insurance company to just send you a check for car damage. It should have been investigated to determine why he said she got a cash payout. The police failed to do so.

parrot said:
2. A grainy video showing something "consistent with" fingernail scratches, doesn't make them fingernail scratches.  In fact it doesn't even make them scratches necessarily.
Click to expand...
I agree. It should have been investigated to determine what they were. The police failed to do so.

parrot said:
3. The name Kilgus appears on a hand-written map as "Ryan Kilgus Group" and is in different hand-writing than that of whoever drew the map.  It's not clear at all that Hillegas either drew the map or wrote "Ryan Kilgus Group" on the paper.  If he did select as a fake name his own first name and a last name that sounds almost exactly like his own, he's a bigger idiot than Avery.

As for his access to the property;

 Just so we're clear Mr. -- I'm sorry. Just so
10 we're clear, Mr. Hillegas, the area that you were
11 allowed access to was the outside of the Avery
12 property itself, in other words, the surrounding
13 properties, not within the salvage property; is
14 that true?
15 A. Yes. 
Click to expand...
He didn't check in to the command post after being spotted on the property. He wasn't "allowed access" to anything by the command post anymore than all of us are allowed access to property outside of crime scenes. The issue is how he appeared on the salvage property without checking in. It should have been investigated to determine how it happened. The police failed to do so.

parrot said:
4.  Pam Sturm was part of the search team and Hillegas and Bloedorn were directing the search teams.  Not exactly a red-flag that they might have "conferred".   
Click to expand...
I agree. It should have been investigated to determine what they discussed. The police failed to do so.

parrot said:
5.  How can you say he has no alibi for 4 days?  Several of the activities you cite here would constitute at least partial alibis during those days.    
Click to expand...
Because he had no alibi from Oct 31 to Nov 4th. It wasn't until Nov 4th that he got involved with the search. It should have been investigated to determine where he was for those days. The police failed to do so.

Again, nothing I'm presenting is evidence he did it. It's evidence that he should have been made a suspect and investigated. The police failed to do so. If you're arguing with me, you are arguing that the police did not fail to do so. 

 
Politician Spock said:
He didn't check in to the command post after being spotted on the property. He wasn't "allowed access" to anything by the command post anymore than all of us are allowed access to property outside of crime scenes.
Click to expand...
Uh, yeah he was.  Trial testimony from Buting's cross;

17 Q. And even on the 5th, and thereafter, when the

18 search narrowed into the Avery's area and
19 surrounding areas, the police actually let you
20 through some check points, along with some other
21 searchers, you leading them to come and search
22 the area, right?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. Within the perimeter of the area around the Avery
25 property that they had made off limits to the
 1 general public, right?
 2 A. Yes.
Click to expand...

 
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ren hoek said:
Just wanted to give yall a heads up, Evil Genius is a new crime doc on Netflix that MAM fans will find very compelling.  
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Hey ren....just got done semi binging Evil Genius.....pretty awesome docu...but it left me with one question I wanted answered....did the hooker ever get in trouble for her admitted roll in this....she knew all about it and was paid to find him....you may not know, but just curious...

 
Stinkin Ref said:
Hey ren....just got done semi binging Evil Genius.....pretty awesome docu...but it left me with one question I wanted answered....did the hooker ever get in trouble for her admitted roll in this....she knew all about it and was paid to find him....you may not know, but just curious...
Click to expand...
I don't think so.  It's been a while since I watched it, but it could be that she plausibly didn't know she was an accomplice to the crime or something.  

We just finished The Staircase, which was excellent. 

And for once, a crime doc with a (relatively) good ending.
 
KingPrawn said:
Avery names two other possible killers

In an about face claims that the police did not plant the blood in Teresa Halbach's vehicle but Bobby Dassey did
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Not a complete about face this time.  She also had Ryan Hillegas planting the blood when he was the "real killer" prior to Bobby.  I think she had to accept that the EDTA test is scientifically valid and LE planting the blood is a non-starter, even for her.  

It's going to be interesting to see after the effort to pin it on Bobby and/or Scott fails, if she will go after Brendan.   

 
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so hopefully now we can put to rest all the crooked cops, police set him up because they were going to owe him millions, etc...talk

in retrospect....did they maybe make some mistakes/not do everything by the book in the investigation....sure....probably happens in most investigations....not sure there has ever been a "perfect" investigation...but at least now maybe people will quit talking about the police trying to set him up....

 
Stinkin Ref said:
so hopefully now we can put to rest all the crooked cops, police set him up because they were going to owe him millions, etc...talk

in retrospect....did they maybe make some mistakes/not do everything by the book in the investigation....sure....probably happens in most investigations....not sure there has ever been a "perfect" investigation...but at least now maybe people will quit talking about the police trying to set him up....
Click to expand...
No, because the police verifiably DID set him up.  Maybe not for the murder of TH, but for the rape in 85.  They don't ever get a pass for that, even if it's proven that Steven is a killer. 

And they did some downright shady stuff, from not properly photographing and exhuming the body and not allowing the coroner on the scene to having Manitowac sheriffs on the scene at all.  To saw it was a flawed investigation is an understatement.

 
parrot said:
So having Manitowoc sheriffs on the scene was bad, but NOT having the Manitowoc Coroner on the scene was also bad?  You need to pick a horse.
Click to expand...
And yet it's the individuals directly accused of sitting on evidence and that have been or will be deposed in Avery's case against the county that are somehow allowed on?  My horse is the one without the obvious bias.  So, let's say the guy who's kinda like a scientist and has special training and isn't accused of being unjust to the suspect do his job?   Is it really that difficult to see the suspicious conflict of interest there? 

 
cockroach said:
And yet it's the individuals directly accused of sitting on evidence and that have been or will be deposed in Avery's case against the county that are somehow allowed on?  My horse is the one without the obvious bias.  So, let's say the guy who's kinda like a scientist and has special training and isn't accused of being unjust to the suspect do his job?   Is it really that difficult to see the suspicious conflict of interest there? 
Click to expand...
I think you're grossly overstating the role of Colborn especially, but regardless, how would it possibly help the appearance of a "suspicious conflict of interest" to have an elected official of Manitowoc County deeply involved in the investigation?  Tip, it wouldn't.  If she HAD been there the defense and documentary makers would have #####ed about that too.  

 
Stinkin Ref said:
so hopefully now we can put to rest all the crooked cops, police set him up because they were going to owe him millions, etc...talk

in retrospect....did they maybe make some mistakes/not do everything by the book in the investigation....sure....probably happens in most investigations....not sure there has ever been a "perfect" investigation...but at least now maybe people will quit talking about the police trying to set him up....
Click to expand...
At the very least, they strongly hoped it was Avery... and that strong hope very likely caused the crappy investigative job they did. 

 
http://www.wbay.com/content/news/Judge-Len-Kachinsky-formally-charged-with-stalking-487932641.html

FOX CROSSING, Wis. (WBAY) - Municipal Judge Len Kachinsky finds himself on the other side of the bench as he's charged with a felony count of stalking and two misdemeanor counts of violating a harassment restraining order.

The Winnebago County district attorney filed the charges Wednesday, and a summons was issued for Kachinsky to make his initial appearance on August 6.

If convicted, the charges can total 5 years behind bars.

 
Politician Spock said:
At the very least, they strongly hoped it was Avery... and that strong hope very likely caused the crappy investigative job they did. 
Click to expand...
the claim of "crappy investigations" happens in almost every case...its usually the first thing you hear...(see every episode of 20/20 or 48 Hours, etc.)...people (defense) will always try to find holes or something they did wrong...many times that is their only hope of getting reasonable doubt, when the evidence is soooo overwhelming like it is in this case...as mentioned before...there probably never has been a "perfect" investigation....and also as mentioned before with the evidence they had and the Dassey confession (no matter how you feel about it)...it is understandable for them to somewhat limit their focus to people on the property....so while to a certain extent they should "look for other suspects"....once the evidence leads you very strongly in one direction that will and should be your focus....at this point, now that they have been convicted , it is up to the defense to come up with the evidence to show why the case should be reopened....good luck with that, I guess we will see...we'll see if they do a perfect investigation job...

 
Stinkin Ref said:
the claim of "crappy investigations" happens in almost every case...its usually the first thing you hear...(see every episode of 20/20 or 48 Hours, etc.)...people (defense) will always try to find holes or something they did wrong...many times that is their only hope of getting reasonable doubt, when the evidence is soooo overwhelming like it is in this case...as mentioned before...there probably never has been a "perfect" investigation....and also as mentioned before with the evidence they had and the Dassey confession (no matter how you feel about it)...it is understandable for them to somewhat limit their focus to people on the property....so while to a certain extent they should "look for other suspects"....once the evidence leads you very strongly in one direction that will and should be your focus....at this point, now that they have been convicted , it is up to the defense to come up with the evidence to show why the case should be reopened....good luck with that, I guess we will see...we'll see if they do a perfect investigation job...
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The issue isn't that there was a crappy investigation. The issue is why there was a crappy investigation. 

This isn't an instance of people being imperfect. 

 
https://www.wbay.com/content/news/Netflix-announces-premiere-of-Making-A-Murderer-Part-2-494263421.html

MANITOWOC COUNTY, Wis. (WBAY) - Netflix says the second part of their Emmy Award-winning series detailing the cases of Steven Avery and Brendan Dassey will premiere Oct. 19 on the streaming service.

Making A Murderer Part 2 will follow Avery and Dassey as they appeal their convictions for the 2005 murder of freelance photographer Teresa Halbach. Investigators said Halbach disappeared after photographing a vehicle for a magazine at the Avery property in Manitowoc County. Investigators say Halbach's remains were found in a burn pit on the property.

A short teaser trailer for Part 2 was released on social media Tuesday morning. The series contains 10 episodes.

 
Not sure how it will be remotely interesting at this point.  We all know the results of everything, unlike in the original series where I knew nothing.

 
facook said:
Not sure how it will be remotely interesting at this point.  We all know the results of everything, unlike in the original series where I knew nothing.
Click to expand...
Well, they made 10 episodes, they must've found a lot more stuff that we don't know about.

 
I think it could be compelling.  I'm interested to see Zellner's work and the family's reaction to all the fanfare after the show.  I'm sure we'll get to see how it's affected the lives of scumbag Manitowoc PD and disgraces like Ken Kratz/Len Kachinsky.  

Are Dassey/Avery basically dead in the water at this point?  :sadbanana:  Looking forward to this.  

 
ren hoek said:
I think it could be compelling.  I'm interested to see Zellner's work and the family's reaction to all the fanfare after the show.  I'm sure we'll get to see how it's affected the lives of scumbag Manitowoc PD and disgraces like Ken Kratz/Len Kachinsky.  

Are Dassey/Avery basically dead in the water at this point?  :sadbanana:  Looking forward to this.  
Click to expand...
One of the police, Weigert, was just recently elected sheriff. 

And yes, unless there's some magical unicorn of evidence that Zellner hasn't played yet, she claims she's keeping up the fight, but I just don't see it happening. The appellate court seems unimpressed with her filings thus far. 

 
https://www.greenbaypressgazette.com/story/news/2018/10/02/steven-avery-convicting-murderer-contrary-making-murderer/1442437002/

In announcing the date for the second season of “Making a Murderer,” Netflix said it will provide “an in-depth look at the high-stakes post-conviction process, exploring the emotional toll the process takes on all involved.”

The series will feature Avery and Dassey, their families and their legal teams, according to the news release from Netflix.

Conversely, “Convicting a Murderer” will focus largely on law enforcement’s role in the investigation and trial that resulted in the convictions. Both Avery and Dassey are serving life in prison.

 
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