Man and daughter killed when plane crashes into them on beach (1 Viewer)

[Bucky86]

I normally agree with NcCommish, but I can't help but strongly disagree with everything he is saying here.

That's cool. No hard feelings or anything. To me if there is even a remote chance you are going to crash the plane in such a way as to injure or kill other people you are the one who takes the chance with injury/death not the other people,

Same here. We can agree to disagree. He also had a duty to protect his passenger.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Blaming the pilot?!? Dear lord.

 

[NCCommish]

Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.

Are 2 people dead?

And I am not saying he should be charged or anything. I think he made the wrong decision. This comes from growing up in a family with several commercial pilots and a couple of military pilots.

Sure...in this case, 2 people are dead. Hindsight is 20/20. Ask the guy if he'd do it differently with hindsight, and I think he might say he'd ditch elsewhere...but I don't think he made an unreasonable decision.

I am sure the guy didn't intend to kill anyone. My understanding is he is very distraught. I don't want the guy prosecuted. If it was my family I likely wouldn't sue. But I would have made a different decision. It's on me to take the chance not the people on the ground IMO.

 

[El Floppo]

Not sure I follow your logic here...

-Pilot said he didn't see anyone on the beach...even if you don't believe that, then

-There weren't enough people on the beach to make a scene big enough that people turned to see the plane, which indicates the beach was not that crowded.

-How does landing a plane on a not-so-crowded beach = "certainly fatal?"

There's an element of risk to the people on the beach, but it doesn't sound like this guy is setting down on Waikiki.

Are 2 people dead?

And I am not saying he should be charged or anything. I think he made the wrong decision. This comes from growing up in a family with several commercial pilots and a couple of military pilots.

Sure...in this case, 2 people are dead. Hindsight is 20/20. Ask the guy if he'd do it differently with hindsight, and I think he might say he'd ditch elsewhere...but I don't think he made an unreasonable decision.

Do we know at what altitude the engine died?

Can't imagine he had much in the way of options of where to land.

 

[Bucky86]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

 

[Dentist]

i know planes are fast, but how did these people not have at least a few seconds of advance warning to sprint away?

I mean.. it seems like you'd notice a plane headed in your general direction that isn't looking good.

I'm shocked that nobody saw the plane. That just feeds more fire into my thought that there really were only a few people on the beach. If this beach was crowded and clearly a dangerous place to land, every gawker would be pointing and yelling. For this to happen, there had to be isolated groups of people, and nobody to see the plane and warn the man.

That said, if a plane was descending behind you on a beach and nobody saw it to warn you, I really doubt you'd ever know until it hit you. The ocean would be louder than a stalled airplane.

I didn't factor in the non-working engine and the ocean noise.... maybe the airplane guy should've used his horn

 

[TheIronSheik]

i know planes are fast, but how did these people not have at least a few seconds of advance warning to sprint away?

I mean.. it seems like you'd notice a plane headed in your general direction that isn't looking good.

I'm shocked that nobody saw the plane. That just feeds more fire into my thought that there really were only a few people on the beach. If this beach was crowded and clearly a dangerous place to land, every gawker would be pointing and yelling. For this to happen, there had to be isolated groups of people, and nobody to see the plane and warn the man.

That said, if a plane was descending behind you on a beach and nobody saw it to warn you, I really doubt you'd ever know until it hit you. The ocean would be louder than a stalled airplane.

I didn't factor in the non-working engine and the ocean noise.... maybe the airplane guy should've used his horn

He was going to use his air horn but was afraid he'd be sued for damaging the kid's ears.

 

[NCCommish]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

 

[comfortably numb]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

Did the passenger sign a waiver?

 

[NCCommish]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

 

[Zow]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

Seriously?

If these were the options:

A. Certain chance at living + slight chance (say, %10?) of killing a bystander.

B. Certain chance at death + no chance of killing anything

I choose option "A" every time. It's just pragmatic. And if you include a passenger it just seems more obvious.

 

[TheIronSheik]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

Seriously?

If these were the options:

A. Certain chance at living + slight chance (say, %10?) of killing a bystander.

B. Certain chance at death + no chance of killing anything

I choose option "A" every time. It's just pragmatic. And if you include a passenger it just seems more obvious.

Exactly.

If the engine dies, why even try to land at all? You could end up hurting someone on the ground.

 

[gianmarco]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Yeah, not sure I'm following the logic here. Should every plane just have a self destruct button so every time someone has engine trouble they can just blow themselves up instead of risking the small chance of a 3rd party injury/casualty?

 

[RUSF18]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

Did the passenger sign a waiver?

Maybe the pilot should have reverse cannonballed into the ocean?

 

[NCCommish]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

 

[gianmarco]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was, and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Fat Nick's post seems to indicate otherwise. Despite your post about being familiar with pilots, the fact that he actually is a pilot and seems to talk about this with some more experience lends a little more credence to his opinion on the matter. Knowing nothing about flying, on the surface, I trust what he's posting.

Would you disagree? Are you disputing what he's saying? If so, based on what?

 

[Bucky86]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

It's also not guaranteed if you hit someone on the ground that they'll be killed, but it's very likely.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

If you crash into shallow water you can still hit someone.

This sounds a lot like results based logic, like someone praising a coach that incorrectly went for 2 simply because it worked out in the end. If he'd landed in the shallow water and killed someone there you'd probably be saying that he should have landed on the beach where people could hear him coming easier.

 

[Bucky86]

What if there was a scuba diver and he was surfacing just as the plane with crash landing into the ocean? or a boat came out of nowhere and was hit? Sounds like we need to make planes illegal unless you can safely crash in an active volcano when a runway isn't available.

 

[NCCommish]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was, and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Fat Nick's post seems to indicate otherwise. Despite your post about being familiar with pilots, the fact that he actually is a pilot and seems to talk about this with some more experience lends a little more credence to his opinion on the matter. Knowing nothing about flying, on the surface, I trust what he's posting.

Would you disagree? Are you disputing what he's saying? If so, based on what?

Why don't I think it's a death sentence to land a Piper Cherokee in water? Because others have landed in water and walked away. Here's one example:

MANATEE COUNTY -- A pilot and his grandson were forced to make an emergency landing in shallow water Saturday when their small plane had engine problems en route to an airport in St. Petersburg, authorities said.
The pilot, identified as William Perkins, 59, of Sarasota, and his teenage grandson were not injured when the single-engine Piper Cherokee landed at about 7:30 a.m. in a bay in north Manatee County.

Now that is likely shallower water then they would have had off the beach but let's be clear there is no reason to believe it is a death sentence to ditch one of these in the water. It happens and people do walk away.

 

[gianmarco]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Also, how is he supposed to know the demographics of the beach and that marine patrol is assigned to that particular stretch as he's crash landing? As pointed out, it seems it wasn't very crowded at all or people would have been yelling to get out of the way.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

What if there was a scuba diver and he was surfacing just as the plane with crash landing into the ocean? or a boat came out of nowhere and was hit? Sounds like we need to make planes illegal unless you can safely crash in an active volcano when a runway isn't available.

What if there is a single celled organism thriving in that volcano?

 

[Bucky86]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was, and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Fat Nick's post seems to indicate otherwise. Despite your post about being familiar with pilots, the fact that he actually is a pilot and seems to talk about this with some more experience lends a little more credence to his opinion on the matter. Knowing nothing about flying, on the surface, I trust what he's posting.

Would you disagree? Are you disputing what he's saying? If so, based on what?

Why don't I think it's a death sentence to land a Piper Cherokee in water? Because others have landed in water and walked away. Here's one example:

MANATEE COUNTY -- A pilot and his grandson were forced to make an emergency landing in shallow water Saturday when their small plane had engine problems en route to an airport in St. Petersburg, authorities said.
The pilot, identified as William Perkins, 59, of Sarasota, and his teenage grandson were not injured when the single-engine Piper Cherokee landed at about 7:30 a.m. in a bay in north Manatee County.

Now that is likely shallower water then they would have had off the beach but let's be clear there is no reason to believe it is a death sentence to ditch one of these in the water. It happens and people do walk away.

What kind of plane was this?

 

[NCCommish]

It's fine that you guys disagree. But there is little point in arguing. You can't convince me the beach was the best place to land that thing. And I guess I won't convince you it isn't even close to instant death to ditch one. So I'll move on. No hard feelings but not really getting anywhere.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

This is why I don't go to the beach.

 

[NCCommish]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was, and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Fat Nick's post seems to indicate otherwise. Despite your post about being familiar with pilots, the fact that he actually is a pilot and seems to talk about this with some more experience lends a little more credence to his opinion on the matter. Knowing nothing about flying, on the surface, I trust what he's posting.

Would you disagree? Are you disputing what he's saying? If so, based on what?

Why don't I think it's a death sentence to land a Piper Cherokee in water? Because others have landed in water and walked away. Here's one example:

MANATEE COUNTY -- A pilot and his grandson were forced to make an emergency landing in shallow water Saturday when their small plane had engine problems en route to an airport in St. Petersburg, authorities said.
The pilot, identified as William Perkins, 59, of Sarasota, and his teenage grandson were not injured when the single-engine Piper Cherokee landed at about 7:30 a.m. in a bay in north Manatee County.

Now that is likely shallower water then they would have had off the beach but let's be clear there is no reason to believe it is a death sentence to ditch one of these in the water. It happens and people do walk away.

What kind of plane was this?

I have no idea.

 

[gianmarco]

Not to beat a dead horse, but let's not forget that there was a passenger on this plane. Doesn't the pilot also have a duty to protect them? Even if the pilot doesn't mind dying to protect potential civilians on the ground, the passenger doesn't get a say in this.

To me that is part of the responsibility you take on as a pilot. I know it isn't easy and I know it would suck to make that call. But again IMO it is what you do in that situation.

He asked about the passenger, though.

Regardless of who is in the plane you don't take even the slightest chance of killing someone on the ground if it is at all avoidable. I

I posted another thread about this, but why the absoluteness of being a martyr here? How is it 100% wrong to avoid killing yourself at the expense of someone else?

It isn't martyrdom. It is not guaranteed you die if the plane flips. Especially when you are going as slowly as this plane was, and going into relatively shallow water off a popular beach that also has a marine patrol assigned to it apparently. Sorry that is my opinion.

Fat Nick's post seems to indicate otherwise. Despite your post about being familiar with pilots, the fact that he actually is a pilot and seems to talk about this with some more experience lends a little more credence to his opinion on the matter. Knowing nothing about flying, on the surface, I trust what he's posting.

Would you disagree? Are you disputing what he's saying? If so, based on what?

Why don't I think it's a death sentence to land a Piper Cherokee in water? Because others have landed in water and walked away. Here's one example:

MANATEE COUNTY -- A pilot and his grandson were forced to make an emergency landing in shallow water Saturday when their small plane had engine problems en route to an airport in St. Petersburg, authorities said.
The pilot, identified as William Perkins, 59, of Sarasota, and his teenage grandson were not injured when the single-engine Piper Cherokee landed at about 7:30 a.m. in a bay in north Manatee County.

Now that is likely shallower water then they would have had off the beach but let's be clear there is no reason to believe it is a death sentence to ditch one of these in the water. It happens and people do walk away.

How about this story?

“As the plane came in it actually touched down in the water and flipped over upside down, and then slowly began sinking,” he explained.

First responders arrived within roughly four minutes of receiving the call and immediately jumped into the water to try and reach the victims.

What followed was something described by Carson as a “very valiant” effort to rescue the Hazeltons.

“Additional police officers arrived on the scene,” he told reporters. “They went into the water and they started trying to drag the plane a little bit closer to the shore. They were able to lift the plane up out of the water so that they got the cockpit above water.”

It still took crews several minutes to gain entry to the semi-submerged cockpit using the Jaws of Life.

 

[Dentist]

This is why I don't go to the beach.

this is why i don't leave my titanium underground shelter.. too risky

 

[Fat Nick]

Look, at the end of the day, the only point of contention between NCCommish and my point of view is that I think that the risk of landing in the water outweigh the risk of landing on a beach. He thinks differently, which is fine. We may both have completely different mental images of how many people are on the beach, the depth of the water, how quickly rescue crews can get to us, how skilled the pilot would be at a water landing, etc...At the end of the day, I stand by my statement that if I were in this pilots shoes, I wouldn't have acted differently without the benefit of hindsight. NCCommish feels otherwise, which is fine.

If nothing else, the fact that two educated parties have this discussion over 2 hours and still disagree sheds light on how quickly this pilot had to make a decision and act upon it with minimal information.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

This is why I don't go to the beach.

this is why i don't leave my titanium underground shelter.. too risky

What would be worse? Losing a huge pot AA vs 7-2 unsuited or being killed by a plane on a beach?

 

[NCCommish]

Look, at the end of the day, the only point of contention between NCCommish and my point of view is that I think that the risk of landing in the water outweigh the risk of landing on a beach. He thinks differently, which is fine. We may both have completely different mental images of how many people are on the beach, the depth of the water, how quickly rescue crews can get to us, how skilled the pilot would be at a water landing, etc...At the end of the day, I stand by my statement that if I were in this pilots shoes, I wouldn't have acted differently without the benefit of hindsight. NCCommish feels otherwise, which is fine.

If nothing else, the fact that two educated parties have this discussion over 2 hours and still disagree sheds light on how quickly this pilot had to make a decision and act upon it with minimal information.

Very true. And again I want to point out I am not calling for prosecution or suing him. I just disagree with his decision.

 

[Dentist]

This is why I don't go to the beach.

this is why i don't leave my titanium underground shelter.. too risky

What would be worse? Losing a huge pot AA vs 7-2 unsuited or being killed by a plane on a beach?

Depends on the scenario. If I raise with my AA appropriately and some bass pole decides to "vary his play" and call with 7 2 then the flop is like 9 6 3 and i make a pot sized bet and he calls with ABSOLUTELY effing nothing, and then the turn is a random 2 and rainbows the board and I shove and he calls and the river is a 7 or 2 and he beats me with the worst possible play, then the odds are I'm going to kill him right then and there at the table (AND give him a stern lecture about proper play while choking him out) and end up in prison getting raped by large black men...

So I'll go ahead and take the plane and end it early.