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"Mass Casualty Event" in Las Vegas (1 Viewer)

How accurate do you have to be shooting into a concert crowd?
Yea I get that, I was replying to culdeus suggesting he was firing two weapons at once. I'm not a gun enthusiast, I know about them enough to know that firing an automatic weapon typically takes two hands for the novice to control any type of accuracy. The gun tends to rise as you continually fire. I would imagine firing two weapons at a time would exacerbate that unless you were either training to do it or just incredibly strong. Looking at this guy, he didn't impress me as either. That's all.

I've also watched a couple of vids on the use of bump stocks to turn your weapon into a full auto. It impresses me that it causes a fair amount of inaccuracy because of the aforementioned natural tendency of the weapon to rise and the fact that you have to hold the weapon a little looser for the bump stock to be effective. Tends to create a spray and pray thing like our friends in the ME like to employ. Anyone with experience using a bump stock feel free to weigh in. And again, I'm not saying that to imply the guy needed to be a SEAL sniper to pull off what he did. He took full advantage of the fish in a barrel scenario, just can't see him firing two weapons with bump stocks with any ability to control them and put as many rounds into the crowd as he did.

 
The echo and richochet effects seem to be the most plausible explanation for the audio sounding like double shooter.

 
Fired 200 rounds at the security guard and hit him once in the lower leg.  Now that was thru a door and walls but I've not known drywall to be a particularly durable material  

 
The snaps you hear are the bullets either whizzing by or hitting (not sure which). You hear the same on a shooting range when you are down range and M16s are firing at targets above you. And there is a secondary sound from the rifle itself from far away. Creating an echo effect.

 
Fired 200 rounds at the security guard and hit him once in the lower leg.  Now that was thru a door and walls but I've not known drywall to be a particularly durable material  
200 rounds?   :shock:

I'm shocked everyone on the other side of the hall isn't dead as those had to go most of the way through.  To your point, I don't see, say 4 sheets of drywall stopping a high-powered round at close range.  Why weren't there other broken windows on the other side?  (Or were there?)

 
Where is that number coming from?  I hadn't heard that.
"He said that Paddock's attempts to flee had probably begun when he spotted security guard Jesus Campos - who had been investigating the gunfire separate from the police - approaching his room on one of the cameras.

Paddock then fired 'well over 200 rounds' through the door into the hallway - miraculously only injuring, not killing, the courageous guard, he said."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4950426/Las-Vegas-shooter-ESCAPE-planned-police-reveal.html

 
Um. as sad as it is to say, it was probably minimal casualties considering his vantage point and arsenal. :( He was spraying into a densely packed crowd and I'm sure did the most damage in those initial minutes while it was packed.  In the initial moments it would have been luck if he missed someone.  :( Once the crowed dispersed fewer people were wounded or killed.  He wasn't aiming at specific targets.  Only masses of people.
Depending on the number of people at the concert, he only actually hit 3 to 6% of them. Odds of getting hit by a bullet were actually pretty low for those that were at the show. 

 
Depending on the number of people at the concert, he only actually hit 3 to 6% of them. Odds of getting hit by a bullet were actually pretty low for those that were at the show. 
As has been mentioned in lots of media outlets the one single fact the NRA has tried like hell to squash is that it is the very first clip/magazine that does the most killing in these events.  

As soon as that first clip empties out or jams the shooters become far less effective.  NRA goal of course to fight any magazine/clip size limitations like hell.

I realize this is a political statement more appropriate for the pol forum and isn't likely to be well received here.

 
As has been mentioned in lots of media outlets the one single fact the NRA has tried like hell to squash is that it is the very first clip/magazine that does the most killing in these events.  

As soon as that first clip empties out or jams the shooters become far less effective.  NRA goal of course to fight any magazine/clip size limitations like hell.

I realize this is a political statement more appropriate for the pol forum and isn't likely to be well received here.
After the Aurora movie theater shooting the Legislature passed a magazine/clip limit bill to limit magazines to 15 rounds. The NRA did not even wait until the next election - they went after 4 state senators in a recall efforts and were successful against 2 - they did not get enough signatures for the other 2. So they do more than fight like hell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_recall_election,_2013

 
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Um. as sad as it is to say, it was probably minimal casualties considering his vantage point and arsenal. :( He was spraying into a densely packed crowd and I'm sure did the most damage in those initial minutes while it was packed.  In the initial moments it would have been luck if he missed someone.  :( Once the crowed dispersed fewer people were wounded or killed.  He wasn't aiming at specific targets.  Only masses of people.
Depending on the number of people at the concert, he only actually hit 3 to 6% of them. Odds of getting hit by a bullet were actually pretty low for those that were at the show. 
Number of targets started to drop as concert goers ran for the exits. If you look at the video he's still firing several rounds when a lot of people have run or gone into hiding - maybe less than 2000 are still in close proximity to each other. Hard to say how effective he was - also some of the rounds were .223 and at that distance they are losing a lot of the lethal power they have as well as any accuracy. He goes with a modified AR with a higher caliber and those 500 injured are dead. The larger caliber would have locked up the rifle more quickly - so there were trade offs he faced. Here is a image of the difference - https://www.pewpewtactical.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Common-Bullet-Sizes-1024x568.jpg

 
Haven't scanned the whole thread. Was anyone at the festival or lose a family member/friend/co-worker etc.?

 
Incredible stuff here - at 2:00 of this video where I start. Someone giving CPR on the left third of the screen out in the field while gunfire comes down - pops back up and keeps going. Then at 2:23 some guy comes down out of stands and girlfriend say no - and he takes off to help the person doing CPR while more bullets fly. Wow - could you?

https://youtu.be/lR6DsDGM1no?t=2m01s

 
I could only stomach one long video.  When I finally watched a long video it really changed my perspective on things.  It's amazing how long the pauses were between shootings.  It's obvious this guy was having troubles sustaining gunfire, whatever the reason for that was.  

 
I haven't watched a lot of TV on this. Watching CNN now.  Twice in last half hour they've made a big deal that he paid cash for his home.  20-40% of all homes are paid for in cash depending on the area.
It's part of the investigation as to trying to figure out what made him snap. He paid cash. So he has/had that kind of money. Also despite his house being pretty private, he built walls to make it completely secluded from the 1 neighbour who may be able to peak in. Everyone else was far enough away and there was no house in view in his backyard. All these things they are reporting on are clues.

 
I could only stomach one long video.  When I finally watched a long video it really changed my perspective on things.  It's amazing how long the pauses were between shootings.  It's obvious this guy was having troubles sustaining gunfire, whatever the reason for that was.  
From what I've heard/read (grain of salt):

He had two shooting platforms set up. He would empty one rifle, perhaps reload once. After sustaining a high ROF for hundred(s) of rounds, you run of overheating-related malfunction, not to mention possibly the rifle being too hot to hold, or smoke buildup. Presumably, he'd move over to a second platform with a new weapon and open fire again. 

 
"He said that Paddock's attempts to flee had probably begun when he spotted security guard Jesus Campos - who had been investigating the gunfire separate from the police - approaching his room on one of the cameras.

Paddock then fired 'well over 200 rounds' through the door into the hallway - miraculously only injuring, not killing, the courageous guard, he said."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4950426/Las-Vegas-shooter-ESCAPE-planned-police-reveal.html
This move by the security guard prevented more casualties as he interrupted him.

 
TMZ reporting that Paddock booked two hotel rooms overlooking Lollapalooza, requesting "view rooms" overlooking the concert. Apparently he never showed. They point out that, had the attack happened there, there were many, many more people (400,000 attendance) and running away from the shots would have been directly into Lake Michigan. Yikes.

Shows he'd probably been planning this for awhile.

 
After the Aurora movie theater shooting the Legislature passed a magazine/clip limit bill to limit magazines to 15 rounds. The NRA did not even wait until the next election - they went after 4 state senators in a recall efforts and were successful against 2 - they did not get enough signatures for the other 2. So they do more than fight like hell. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colorado_recall_election,_2013
I'm not sure why people are upset with the NRA's role in this? Bloomberg/Broad were far worse. 
• NYC Mayor invested $300k in the defense of the Democratic Senators
• CA Billionaire Eli Broad invested $2500 in the defense of the Democratic Senators
• The NRA Invested $108k on the recall efforts
• The DEM Party outspent the REP side $3MM to $500K in trying to influence the election. 

The Recall still went through by a 55/45 margin. 

Pretty clearly the will of the Colorado people opposed the action, in spite of 6x more significant outside financing in an attempt to influence the election. :shrug:  

 
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This move by the security guard prevented more casualties as he interrupted him.
Can't even imagine how different this would have been if that security guard hadn't shown up. 

He gets out of there and to his second/third caches of weapons and next round of targets, and whoo boy.

 
Can't even imagine how different this would have been if that security guard hadn't shown up. 

He gets out of there and to his second/third caches of weapons and next round of targets, and whoo boy.
I agree.  I wonder how chaotic MB was once people realized the firing was coming from there?

 
It's part of the investigation as to trying to figure out what made him snap. He paid cash. So he has/had that kind of money. Also despite his house being pretty private, he built walls to make it completely secluded from the 1 neighbour who may be able to peak in. Everyone else was far enough away and there was no house in view in his backyard. All these things they are reporting on are clues.
I get that.   They were sensationalizing the fact that he paid cash like it's rarely done.    My far fetched guess at the moment was that he was trying to one up his dad.

 
This move by the security guard prevented more casualties as he interrupted him.


Can't even imagine how different this would have been if that security guard hadn't shown up. 

He gets out of there and to his second/third caches of weapons and next round of targets, and whoo boy.
Been saying this since the timeline came out. I believe because of the security guard, nutjob (or his ISIS/FBI handlers) offed himself 10 minutes into the event. Yea it could have been a lot worse IMO.

I also think he had that many weapons in the room because he knew he was going to have issues (gun jammed, overheated, etc.) As Icon pointed out, empty the magazine on one, pitch it, move to 2nd window, empty magazine, pitch it, go back to first window, pick up new rifle, lather, rinse, repeat.

 
Can't even imagine how different this would have been if that security guard hadn't shown up. 

He gets out of there and to his second/third caches of weapons and next round of targets, and whoo boy.
I know there are many heroes in this situation, but that guard is number 1.  

 
I know there are many heroes in this situation, but that guard is number 1.  
The biggest one for me, aside from this security guard, is the guy who was shot in the neck and still went back to save 30 more people. Thankfully he survived with a bullet in his neck and all.

 
:loco:
 

The night before the shooting, Mr. Paddock made two complaints to the hotel about noise coming from his downstairs neighbors: Albert Garzon, a restaurant owner visiting from San Diego, and his wife and friends. Mr. Garzon, who was staying in 31-135, directly beneath Mr. Paddock, said security guards knocked on his door around 1:30 a.m. on Sunday and asked him to turn down his music, country songs. When he asked where the complaint was coming from, pointing out that the nearest rooms on either side were far away, the security guard said, “It’s the guest above you.”

They turned the music down, but had another visit from different security guards half an hour later. The man had called to complain again. Mr. Garzon turned the music off. It wasn’t until the early hours of Monday that Mr. Garzon realized Mr. Paddock had been the complainer.

“I looked up and I could see his curtain flapping in the wind,” he said.

 
I'm not sure why people are upset with the NRA's role in this? Bloomberg/Broad were far worse. 
• NYC Mayor invested $300k in the defense of the Democratic Senators
• CA Billionaire Eli Broad invested $2500 in the defense of the Democratic Senators
• The NRA Invested $108k on the recall efforts
• The DEM Party outspent the REP side $3MM to $500K in trying to influence the election. 

The Recall still went through by a 55/45 margin

Pretty clearly the will of the Colorado people opposed the action, in spite of 6x more significant outside financing in an attempt to influence the election. :shrug:  
In one district - by 300 votes in another - they also failed in 2 other districts. The unprecedented factor was that this was a recall effort - not waiting until the next election for the consequences. Recalls are GOTV efforts which the NRA has another machine that works miracles for them. Also in the next general a year later both the Republicans were ousted by pretty significant margins - showing that recall elections rarely get everyone involved because you might believe it's not going to happen and that Democrat Party voters are lazy when it comes to off-year elections - so it wasn't really the "will" of the people and certainly not the entirety of Colorado. The other lesson taught was that if you bring up gun control issues you are going to get stung - and the NRA did their job albeit a bit slimy in my book - should have attacked in the general. It was a sting that kept Democrats from touching the rail again.

 
I know there are many heroes in this situation, but that guard is number 1.  
Yea, the timeliness of the guards arrival was huge.

The cease of gunfire also allowed rescue workers to extract the wounded a lot sooner, allowing them to get to hospitals for whatever medical assistance they may have needed (blood, surgeries etc)

 
Been saying this since the timeline came out. I believe because of the security guard, nutjob (or his ISIS/FBI handlers) offed himself 10 minutes into the event. Yea it could have been a lot worse IMO.

I also think he had that many weapons in the room because he knew he was going to have issues (gun jammed, overheated, etc.) As Icon pointed out, empty the magazine on one, pitch it, move to 2nd window, empty magazine, pitch it, go back to first window, pick up new rifle, lather, rinse, repeat.
:lmao:   way to slip that one in there

 
A co-worker of mine had a sister there.  She had left the concert about 15-30 minutes before the rampage because a guy spilled a beer on her...

 
My sister lives about a mile and a half from there.  She didn't understand all the sirens blaring all night.  She watched something on the DVR, went to bed, and woke up to her FB and email lit up with folks asking if she was okay.  She just moved there last month.  

 
Henry Ford said:
Can't even imagine how different this would have been if that security guard hadn't shown up. 

He gets out of there and to his second/third caches of weapons and next round of targets, and whoo boy.
I really don't want to take anything away from the guy, but I'm not sure it's really that simple.  Hell, I feel bad for even typing this because he took a bullet.

That guy was part of a search team which included police.  Before he got shot, one of the officers was already starting to look for him, and they found him soon after.  I don't know if they found him before or after Paddock strafed the hallway with 200 rounds, but regardless, it's a miracle the guy survived that with one shot to the thigh.  There's still a lot to be revealed, but I think I remember there being 5-6 people in that group which I assume Paddock knew, and the guard along with all of those guys probably told him he was on borrowed time, causing him to take the coward's way out of life.

 
I have one insane buddy on FB who has run the gamut of stupid conspiracy theories based on all the crazy clickbait sites. 

He's now CONVINCED that there was another shooter that shot up the Bellagio

Him: Do you have ANY photos or video evidence of bullet holes? A single reputable source reporting it? 

Him: "Mainstream media coverup blah blah..."

Me: "Okay.. well my cousin was staying at the Bellagio that night. He was gambling at Venetian when this went down but when he got back to the Bellagio there was zero evidence of the place being shot up. "

Him: "I just thought it was interesting. Thought provoking. And they could have heard them and moved everyone down because of it. And that’s why her husband jumped on top of her. I'm not saying it's true either...  all I'm saying is that it's weird all these different stories are coming out after the fact."

I just responded with a "Conspiracy theories make stupid people feel smart" meme. :lol:

 
I have one insane buddy on FB who has run the gamut of stupid conspiracy theories based on all the crazy clickbait sites. 

He's now CONVINCED that there was another shooter that shot up the Bellagio

Him: Do you have ANY photos or video evidence of bullet holes? A single reputable source reporting it? 

Him: "Mainstream media coverup blah blah..."

Me: "Okay.. well my cousin was staying at the Bellagio that night. He was gambling at Venetian when this went down but when he got back to the Bellagio there was zero evidence of the place being shot up. "

Him: "I just thought it was interesting. Thought provoking. And they could have heard them and moved everyone down because of it. And that’s why her husband jumped on top of her. I'm not saying it's true either...  all I'm saying is that it's weird all these different stories are coming out after the fact."

I just responded with a "Conspiracy theories make stupid people feel smart" meme. :lol:
There's a guy at Rivals who can't understand how a mailman got wealthy playing video poker... not really, but pretty close and he's hung up on those two things. He thinks it is strange that a 64 year old guy has amassed enough wealth to do these things. 

There was also a ton of time spent because some guy kept wanting to talk about the curtains blowing out of the windows. 

Some guy named 0hour on twitter is helping fuel the ISIS related talk. I got to about 60/40 before that PC last night, but this was a lone wolf, possibly set off by the election and crap from the last year, and right now police are probing the colons of any individual he spoke to, likely on the internet, in the last year. Sick individual who may have had a little help from a likeminded individual or two. 

 
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There's a guy at Rivals who can't understand how a mailman got wealthy playing video poker... not really, but pretty close and he's hung up on those two things. He thinks it is strange that a 64 year old guy has amassed enough wealth to do these things. 

There was also a ton of time spent because some guy kept wanting to talk about the curtains blowing out of the windows. 

Some guy named 0hour on twitter is helping fuel the ISIS related talk. I got to about 60/40 before that PC last night, but this was a lone wolf, possibly set off by the election and crap from the last year, and right now police are probing the colons of any individual he spoke to, likely on the internet, in the last year. Sick individual who may have had a little help from a likeminded individual or two. 
Below is a post from another message board from someone who knew this guys gambling.  Doesn't look like he made a ton on video poker but he seems to have been an advantage player.

"I have received more info from the casino insider.

The city of Reno has various video poker games with over 100% return. You can see some listed here: http://www.vpfree2.com/casinos/by-re...eno-tahoe.html

The locals love these machines, but in reality they are more of a gimmick than anything else. Most are low limit, and it is assumed that most players will also make mistakes and/or misclicks, bringing their expected win under 100%.

However, casinos are aware that there are computer-like video poker players who almost never make mistakes, and have a deep enough bankroll to withstand variance.

Stephen Paddock was one of those players, and in fact was regarded as one of the best, when it came to avoiding mistakes or incorrect strategy.

He loved the multiplay machines with the 100%+ return. He was beating the casinos for a long time, and had a deep enough bankroll to withstand any variance. In fact, he was observed being emotionless while playing. Even when he had bad sessions, he showed no frustration, and didn't seem to care much.

There was at least one casino in Reno where he was an overall winner over an extremely high number of hands, and probably more than just that one. (I know which casino, but I am not naming it, as I've been asked not to.)

He played video poker all over town, especially at places which ran 100%+ games at any reasonable stakes. (That is, he didn't play the 5c or single-play 25c machines.)

One casino even downgraded the 100%+ return 100-play machine they had, because he was consistently beating it. This disappointed some locals who enjoyed that machine, as the casino observed that only he was able to beat it over a large sample of hands.

He wasn't making huge money, however. The casinos aren't stupid enough to offer 100%+ games at high stakes, and it's still a big grind to make consistent money on a machine with a 100.xx% theoretical return. Clearly Paddock enjoyed the grind and spent a lot of time doing it.

He also played sub-100% games (hence his high status at Caesars), but focused most of his video poker play on the better-paying Reno properties.

Interestingly, he had a bad week recently, about a week before the shooting. He lost more during that week in Reno than they had ever observed him losing before. I was not told if his play style changed at all, but simply that he lost a lot, and that it was unusual. However, the amount he lost was unlikely to be significant enough to break him or cause serious financial damage, given what we know about him (and his ability to withstand variance in the past). It was only notable because of how bad the run was in such a short time. Was he perhaps playing poorly because his mind was on what was coming up?

FYI, Reno is quite far from Mesquite (over 500 miles), but he also had a property in Reno, which was searched by authorities after the shooting."

 
Below is a post from another message board from someone who knew this guys gambling.  Doesn't look like he made a ton on video poker but he seems to have been an advantage player.

"I have received more info from the casino insider.

The city of Reno has various video poker games with over 100% return. You can see some listed here: http://www.vpfree2.com/casinos/by-re...eno-tahoe.html

The locals love these machines, but in reality they are more of a gimmick than anything else. Most are low limit, and it is assumed that most players will also make mistakes and/or misclicks, bringing their expected win under 100%.

However, casinos are aware that there are computer-like video poker players who almost never make mistakes, and have a deep enough bankroll to withstand variance.

Stephen Paddock was one of those players, and in fact was regarded as one of the best, when it came to avoiding mistakes or incorrect strategy.

He loved the multiplay machines with the 100%+ return. He was beating the casinos for a long time, and had a deep enough bankroll to withstand any variance. In fact, he was observed being emotionless while playing. Even when he had bad sessions, he showed no frustration, and didn't seem to care much.

There was at least one casino in Reno where he was an overall winner over an extremely high number of hands, and probably more than just that one. (I know which casino, but I am not naming it, as I've been asked not to.)

He played video poker all over town, especially at places which ran 100%+ games at any reasonable stakes. (That is, he didn't play the 5c or single-play 25c machines.)

One casino even downgraded the 100%+ return 100-play machine they had, because he was consistently beating it. This disappointed some locals who enjoyed that machine, as the casino observed that only he was able to beat it over a large sample of hands.

He wasn't making huge money, however. The casinos aren't stupid enough to offer 100%+ games at high stakes, and it's still a big grind to make consistent money on a machine with a 100.xx% theoretical return. Clearly Paddock enjoyed the grind and spent a lot of time doing it.

He also played sub-100% games (hence his high status at Caesars), but focused most of his video poker play on the better-paying Reno properties.

Interestingly, he had a bad week recently, about a week before the shooting. He lost more during that week in Reno than they had ever observed him losing before. I was not told if his play style changed at all, but simply that he lost a lot, and that it was unusual. However, the amount he lost was unlikely to be significant enough to break him or cause serious financial damage, given what we know about him (and his ability to withstand variance in the past). It was only notable because of how bad the run was in such a short time. Was he perhaps playing poorly because his mind was on what was coming up?

FYI, Reno is quite far from Mesquite (over 500 miles), but he also had a property in Reno, which was searched by authorities after the shooting."
There's another article out talking about that style of play, saying guys like him play for the comps, in a sense. Even when they are losing money just at the set payout or a little above, they're making money on comps. Some people aren't going to read all of that, and even then, they won't understand what Advantage Player means. 

That way of living has to just suck the life out of you. 

 
When the brother was asked about the $100,000 sent to the girlfriend, he apologized and said that’s not a lot of money to us. 

So paying cash for a house doesn’t seem like much of a big deal. 

 
There's another article out talking about that style of play, saying guys like him play for the comps, in a sense. Even when they are losing money just at the set payout or a little above, they're making money on comps. Some people aren't going to read all of that, and even then, they won't understand what Advantage Player means. 

That way of living has to just suck the life out of you. 
How is it different than farming gold on world of Warcraft?

 
Swing 51 said:
:loco:
 

directly beneath Mr. Paddock, said security guards knocked on his door around 1:30 a.m. on Sunday and asked him to turn down his music, country songs


This guy's last night on earth was losing sleep to loud country music. 

Wherever he may be now, I hope he gets to experience that forever. 

 

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