McNabb Discussion Rages On (1 Viewer)

[pagermill]

Hey Guys,

In our main money league where I am commish I am at a stand still about the McNabb 2nd Touchdown.

It boils down like this:

Team A beat Team B (ME) with McNabb/Brown by .5 points.

In our league rules we have very vague information about these situations. All we have stated is that:

Scoring: Head-to-Head, Points Based System.

Scoring based on total stats each period.

Team A believes that since we use CBS as our host site and we don't identify a deadline for amendments...we are bound by the Tuesday midnight deadline. And Team B should not get the extra points.

I, Team B, believe that the CBS rules are only their rules, basically to reduce their amount of work. Which were never agreed upon by the league owners. And our rules state that scoring is based on each period (week by week) and this change came during the week.

Going to a poll to the other owners likely will be biased as they will vote what's best for their own teams.

Which way would do you lean on the topic.

 

[Mr. Deltoid]

Is this a league with people you know? If so, get a group of 3 people who are not in the league and ask them to rule.

Personally, I think that your logic fails in that all of the rules of your league, I would guess, default to the CBS settings except the ones you specifically change.

I would take the loss. But that's me. Either way, make a ruling for next year.

Mr. D

 

[Mordraken]

We have a specific rule on scoring changes in our league, and that is this:

If scoring changes after the Monday night game, the scoring change will ONLY affect the points total of the year, and will NOT affect the win/loss of a game. Points are the tiebreaker in divisional titles, and also are the only deciding factor for the wildcard, so if a team is screwed out of points for a win, at least they get them counted for their season total (and can still make it into the playoffs as a wildcard team).

Not sure that helps, but to me it's the only logical way to handle things. Same thing as the NFL Review committe saying "oh sorry, our refs blew the call and that run should have been a TD, and yes, you only got a fieldgoal and ended up losing by 2 points" - they aren't going to change the outcome of the game, but it's nice in fantasy that we can still give the "unlucky" team some benefit.

 

[Ramer]

I'm the commish in our league. I played the McNabb owner and won, then lost when i corrected his stats for the game. 1st place was on the line also.

FF is all about stats, and the stats say McNabb had 257 and 2 TD'S. End of story.

 

[baronson]

i responded above that you should adjust for the mcnabb TD. however, since you are commissioner, and you haven't taken it upon yourself to lay out the rules in a detailed, inclusive manner... you should really take the loss. if you rule in your own favor, you will lose the trust of all other owners. if they're friends of yours, that could get dicey, as it's your main money league. i really suggest you eat the loss, although you can still award yourself the points in the event they impact a tie-breaker...

 

[pagermill]

Thanks for the insight. The one other piece of informaton was that when we were on the phone Monday night after the game. I said I hope the change the McNabb ruling. And we agreed to use the results posted by NFL.com.

It was that he figured NFL.com would change the ruling on Tuesday.

So by Wed morning he thought he had won.

Since the change was late in the week, I guess it opened more trouble.

But nobody in our league knew about the Tuesday deadline. And why would we. Unfortuantely we assumed that CBS would adjust no matter when.

(edited to clarify my first attempt)

 

[Limp Ditka]

i responded above that you should adjust for the mcnabb TD. however, since you are commissioner, and you haven't taken it upon yourself to lay out the rules in a detailed, inclusive manner... you should really take the loss. if you rule in your own favor, you will lose the trust of all other owners. if they're friends of yours, that could get dicey, as it's your main money league. i really suggest you eat the loss, although you can still award yourself the points in the event they impact a tie-breaker...

Just because he's commissioner, its his fault? What a load of BSWhat happens if his league works like one of mine does and we rotate the commissioner every year to avoid it being an annual burden on someone?And every league I've ever been in, regardless of how the commissioners office is maintained, has the members of the league not only vote on rule changes, but suggest them as well.Everyone in the league is to blame for this. For the commissioner to fall upon the proverbial sword is a horse#### way of handling it.

 

[Cowtippers]

I'm a commish in a CBS league and I manually adjusted the stats from week 10 to reflect the change. It was an "official stat change" by the N.F.L. so I.M.O. the stand up thing to do is adjust the stats. Our rules were also somewhat vague on this topic since we've never really had to deal with it.

What I don't understand is why the Elias Sports Bureau took until Wednesday to make the call on this play. You would think with as many people that play fantasy football and invest millions into the N.F.L. - that reviewing this play would have been made a PRIORITY! This could have all been avoided if Elias had made the change two days earlier on Monday....... It shouldn't take 3 days to look at game film....

 

[baronson]

i responded above that you should adjust for the mcnabb TD. however, since you are commissioner, and you haven't taken it upon yourself to lay out the rules in a detailed, inclusive manner... you should really take the loss. if you rule in your own favor, you will lose the trust of all other owners. if they're friends of yours, that could get dicey, as it's your main money league. i really suggest you eat the loss, although you can still award yourself the points in the event they impact a tie-breaker...

Just because he's commissioner, its his fault? What a load of BSWhat happens if his league works like one of mine does and we rotate the commissioner every year to avoid it being an annual burden on someone?And every league I've ever been in, regardless of how the commissioners office is maintained, has the members of the league not only vote on rule changes, but suggest them as well.Everyone in the league is to blame for this. For the commissioner to fall upon the proverbile sword is a horse#### way of handling it.

and what if he's a lazy, uninvolved commissioner who's held the post since 2000? he deserves every inch of the "sword" for not detailing his league's rules in a conclusive manner.if something is in writing, then no one can btch. if he changes the outcome of a game to suit his needs (going against what many may feel is the "right" thing to do), then i'm sure he'll ostracize himself. it's unavoidable. the only solution is to absorb the loss and draft a real rulebook.a lot of leagues allow the commish to play for free as a "fee" for acting as commissioner. don't act like being commissioner doesn't have its advantages...

 

[pagermill]

I live up in Canada so did the US observe Veterans day on Friday last week or this past Monday? If it was Monday...maybe the Wed change typically would have been Tuesday but the holiday delayed it??

I know I'm reaching hard here but I agree it's strange they took so long.

 

[pagermill]

This is the 4th year for this league. I was the single commish the first 2 years. And a co commish these past 2 years. Only the other co commish has not done much this year, new baby keeping him occupied. And I have emailed him to get his opinion on the subject.

I get no perks for the responsibilities. And in our rules we state that it is up to a majority vote (8 of 14) to implement or change any rules. But in my history of ff (9 years) this has never been an issue.

In no way, shape or form am I a lazy commish as we have updated and changed many facets of our league and expanded during the past few years.

 

[Limp Ditka]

i responded above that you should adjust for the mcnabb TD. however, since you are commissioner, and you haven't taken it upon yourself to lay out the rules in a detailed, inclusive manner... you should really take the loss. if you rule in your own favor, you will lose the trust of all other owners. if they're friends of yours, that could get dicey, as it's your main money league. i really suggest you eat the loss, although you can still award yourself the points in the event they impact a tie-breaker...

Just because he's commissioner, its his fault? What a load of BSWhat happens if his league works like one of mine does and we rotate the commissioner every year to avoid it being an annual burden on someone?And every league I've ever been in, regardless of how the commissioners office is maintained, has the members of the league not only vote on rule changes, but suggest them as well.Everyone in the league is to blame for this. For the commissioner to fall upon the proverbile sword is a horse#### way of handling it.

and what if he's a lazy, uninvolved commissioner who's held the post since 2000? he deserves every inch of the "sword" for not detailing his league's rules in a conclusive manner.if something is in writing, then no one can btch. if he changes the outcome of a game to suit his needs (going against what many may feel is the "right" thing to do), then i'm sure he'll ostracize himself. it's unavoidable. the only solution is to absorb the loss and draft a real rulebook.a lot of leagues allow the commish to play for free as a "fee" for acting as commissioner. don't act like being commissioner doesn't have its advantages...

He's a lazy, uninvolved commish if he didn't foresee the unthinkable? I've been playing FF for 10 years and not once has a situation like this come up. The league I commish annually has no rule about this and I am hardly lazy about my responsibilities. Maybe I'm just lucky that I play with sane people because I did the change to score for McNabb, whom I own, when the stat change was known and I didn't hear a single peep about it. They all know its the right thing to do as does everyone in the other 3 leagues I'm in

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Thanks for the insight. The one other piece of informaton was that when we were on the phone Monday night after the game. I said I hope the change the McNabb ruling. And we agreed to use the results posted by NFL.com.

It was that he figured NFL.com would change the ruling on Tuesday.

So by Wed morning he thought he had won.

Since the change was late in the week, I guess it opened more trouble.

But nobody in our league knew about the Tuesday deadline. And why would we. Unfortuantely we assumed that CBS would adjust no matter when.

(edited to clarify my first attempt)

So he figured wrong...oh well.Bottom line is if the NFL recognises the score change so should your league...period

 

[gman06]

There is absolutely no question his scoring change should be used. This is an official change by Elias. Your league does not have a rule regarding this, so the change should be made. My league does not have a rule addressing this, and the change was made.

 

[beto]

I think that any scoring or lineup changes/protests should be made by the start of the next week's game. If it happens after that, then don't change it.

That way it covers anybody crying because something wasn't done 3 weeks ago.

 

[Bizkiteer]

Here's an idea...you've played the entire season by the NFL's stats, why change now? If the NFL said it's a throwing TD by McNabb, then that is what it is..plain and simple.

 

[jayboy444]

our league has been around for over 20 years and we have seen a multitude of "first-time" situations. our current rule states that any scoring change ruled by the NFL (and in this case it's official scoring source Elias Sports) shall be deemed official and all subsequent changes shall become official. However we stipulate a one week time frame. Our line-up deadline is midnight saturday. any changes from official headquaters after that are null and void.

 

[The_U]

We had a raging debate about this since it was made apparent. Oddly enough, the staunchest supporter of "leaving the score as-is" was the McNabb owner, who went from a tie game to a ten point win. He didn't want a "cheap win" on his record.

Thankfully sanity prevailed and as Commissioner I pretty much laid down the argument that we play a stats-based game. When the official stats bureau to the NFL makes a change to said stats, well either you change the stats-based result of a game or you have anarchy in the vacuum of fantasy sports.

Despite not wanting the win, I told the guy to take it and quit being such a gent. He did so and is now enjoying a one game lead over the team he had till then tied with the previous week with three weeks to go.

Moral of the story: I don't understand any league that doesn't recognize an official NFL/Elias statistical change in a stats-based contest.

 

[mlball77]

I guess I don't see this as that big of a deal. There was an error in the stats that was corrected... so the fantasy teams with the players involved need their scores updated to reflect the corrected statistical mistakes.

To me it seems very simple really. Maybe I am oversimplifying things though.

Where the problem is, in my view, is that you are the Commish and would be changing your score which would give you a win when you previously had a loss. I think that if the other owner threw a big stink about it, as Commish I'd let him keep the win. Sometimes I think you have to take the hit as Commish and not let it look as though you used your Commish powers unfairly. You wouldn't be using them unfairly in updating the scores, imo, but it may appear to some that you are.

 

[Birdie048]

We have a deadline that any Official scoring or play ruling change must be reported before 12:00 pm on Wednesday to impact the change in a players score. If there is any report until after that, it does not change anything.

In our league, the McNabb & Deuce rulings would only have changed the margin of victory for each team.

 

[renesauz]

I changed it in my league. Since I've never seen such a drastic change in stats in ten plu years of running FF leagues, we had no rule clarifying what to do.

It changed the outcome of a game between two playoff contenders. The winner was in great shape to make it, and the loser in trouble. The new loser took it in stride, and was quick to agree/understand that I felt I had to change the points and outcome.

The bigger lesson is to make sure all of our leagues have a realistic deadline for stats changes, and some system in place to take care of problems like this.

 

[NoFBinLA]

Does your league follow the scoring of the NFL? Does it utilize the official stats of the NFL?

Then you have your answer. McNabb scored twice.

Now I understand your hesitation as commisioner - but I've seen NFL stat changes late in the week before - one last year, I can't remember who it was involving - and it cost me a game. That's life - you use the stats the NFL gives you.

Since you have a co-commish (I think you said you emailed him) have him step forward and officially handle it -- and step back. It's what a co-commish is for. He may have a baby but he can spare some time to sort it out.

But honestly the fair thing is to correct the stat. Are you correcting Duece's stats and Buckholters where applicable?

Whatever you decide be consistent. But i can't see why you wouldn't make the change - it's the official score straight from the league we all watch on Sunday. Not like MFL or RTSports or Espn just decided to arbitrarily change it and ignore what the stats are.

It's causing trouble in my leagues as well a little - but I think it's just frustration at the late adjustment which sucks, but is what it is.

Just my humble opinion - other's mileage may vary.

 

[Sleeper 43]

My work over paid me one time on my direct deposit. i went out and blew the extra money. A month later they realized thier mistake and charged me back. Does it suck yeah BUT it was a mistake and i didnt have a leg to stand on. I did not deserve the money, I didnt legitimatley earn it. You think if I called them up and said " i think you waited too long to catch your mistake, I want the money I know I didnt work for back" that they would give a Shhh?!

Same situation in my book

If you decide to take the loss make it clear , ITS A FAVOR for the sake of excessive league drama and going forward all scores are not final until the following weeks kickoff.

You should be disappointed that your friend or fellow owner doesnt see CLEARLY that its not a matter of a deadline its a matter of correct scoring.

 

[u999spf]

We use Tuesday at midnight as the latest a stat change can take place. I understand the reasoning behind those that say when the stats are changed they should be reflecting in your scoring as well but there has to be a deadline in there somewhere.

We picked Tuesday as the deadline, since changes in points can effect games, also effecting waiver wire order based on records, etc.

 

[gman06]

I see that a few leagues in this response only will change scoring at midnight on Tuesday or 12 p.m. on Wednesday. From what I understand, Elias does not make their scoring changes until Wednesday. Your rules are your rules, but you might want to take a look at extending that deadline a little.

 

[thayman]

I see that a few leagues in this response only will change scoring at midnight on Tuesday or 12 p.m. on Wednesday. From what I understand, Elias does not make their scoring changes until Wednesday. Your rules are your rules, but you might want to take a look at extending that deadline a little.

You would then have to change your WW a bit, if it starts on Wed.

 

[oso diablo]

I see that a few leagues in this response only will change scoring at midnight on Tuesday or 12 p.m. on Wednesday. From what I understand, Elias does not make their scoring changes until Wednesday. Your rules are your rules, but you might want to take a look at extending that deadline a little.

You would then have to change your WW a bit, if it starts on Wed.

not necessarily. as a result of this situation, we are adding a rule that stat corrections can occur up until kickoff of next week's first game. If waivers had already run before a change is brought to the commish's attention, then waiver order stands as run. Seems a reasonable compromise to me.

 

[Bizkiteer]

Anyone who would have watched the game and saw the play would have found the initial ruling odd. Clearly Reggie Brown never had control of the ball and I wondered why no comment was made about it in the first place. They got it right in the end and so should any of the FF leagues out there. IMO

 

[Ghost Rider]

Bottom line is if the NFL recognises the score change so should your league...period

Exactly.

 

[PegCityPimp]

This poll pretty much asks should McNabb get credit for the corrected TD? That is not the issue in the league.McNabb owners have been lobbying for this correction all week, when the Wednesday news dropped they seemed to turned their combined efforts to getting commishs and websites to reflect the change. At this point in the week, this topic has been beaten to death and people who got burnt by the stat correction aren't as passionate about it as the mass McNabb owners. The issue is not whether he got the TD--it's when they made the change. Our website finalizes our games on Tuesday night. We don't have a rule in place--currently that mentions stat corrections--so we default to the Tuesday night CBS deadline. Untill now the CBS cutoff worked just fine. Whenever issues arise in our league we vote on in the offseason..we didn't do that this time. The McNabb owner, who posted this poll and has commish privledges "corrected" himself into a victory. All of the early posts said he should just take the loss untill he injected a few other points that supported his side--he then sent me a link to this thread to justify his stance.

I'm not saying McNabb shouldn't get the TD, I'm saying that it sucks for him that it came late and he is welcome to bring the point up too the league in the offseason. I have talked with other league members and everyone I talked too thinks he has overstepped his powers by making this change without at least getting a majority vote before doing so. Him making this change this time and ignoring all the other stat corrections so far this year makes me wonder. This is a link to the corrections someone in another thread gave me--Stat Corrections Now that he made his McNabb correction is he responsible for fixing every one on the list.Remember we don't have a rule that addresses stat corrections--all we have is the CBS cutoff. That has worked for us for years--and I'm sure will work at least untill the end of this season. We have never changed a rule mid season and not that it can't happen--it would have to be huge for us to do so.

 

[GregR_2]

Is this a league with people you know? If so, get a group of 3 people who are not in the league and ask them to rule.

Personally, I think that your logic fails in that all of the rules of your league, I would guess, default to the CBS settings except the ones you specifically change.

I would take the loss. But that's me. Either way, make a ruling for next year.

Mr. D

I agree with this thinking. If the expectation is that your rules default to what CBS does, because you don't 'have' rules, then you should stick with what CBS does.However, if that is not the case, then I think what the majority of leagues do is use that games are final with the start of NFL games the following week, and I would make the change.

More importantly, I would then switch websites to a competent one that doesn't charge twice as much as everyone else.

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

Pretty one sided poll results. It seems like a handful of people are looking for excuses not to give McNabb the points, hiding behind the sanctimonius argument of "the integrity of the rules". Seems to ring pretty hollow when it's revealed that there are personal agendas involved.

Bottom line, McNabb threw 2 TD's in week 10. Get over it, do the right thing - award the points and take the results like a man.

 

[Badger1]

I'm the commish in my league and have now lost the game because of the ruling. Since the NFL has accepted the ruling, there is no reason that fantasy leagues should not. You have to give McNabb the points.

The fact the Elias is biased and gave McNabb a TD for an obvious fumble is complete garbage, but a ruling we have to live with. These idiots do it everyday, ususally on the behalf of lobbying players once stats are published. It is much more prevelant in baseball where they overturn errors and such, but it also occurs weekly on the gridiron.

Someone needs to explain to me how Brown caught the ball, landed on two feet, transfered the ball to his right elbow, made a juke/turn upfield before he got hammered and it is ruled to NOT be a fumble. Give me a break.

 

[EFD]

Someone needs to explain to me how Brown caught the ball, landed on two feet, transfered the ball to his right elbow, made a juke/turn upfield before he got hammered and it is ruled to NOT be a fumble. Give me a break.

Brown did indeed land on two feet, but he did not have control of the ball at any moment.It was not a fumble, as Brown never had possession of the ball.The right call was made.And in my league the Commish played the guy with McNabb. Commish was up by 5 before the change and refuses to adjust it. His basic rationale is that "where do we draw the line?? What if there's a change like this three weeks later and the playoffs had already started".It's flat out ridiculous.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

YO PAGERMILL...............how`s about an update???????????????

 

[NoFBinLA]

Someone needs to explain to me how Brown caught the ball, landed on two feet, transfered the ball to his right elbow, made a juke/turn upfield before he got hammered and it is ruled to NOT be a fumble. Give me a break.

Brown did indeed land on two feet, but he did not have control of the ball at any moment.It was not a fumble, as Brown never had possession of the ball.The right call was made.And in my league the Commish played the guy with McNabb. Commish was up by 5 before the change and refuses to adjust it. His basic rationale is that "where do we draw the line?? What if there's a change like this three weeks later and the playoffs had already started".It's flat out ridiculous.

Your commish? He's protecting his win. I'm not saying he's being a prat and dishonest......No, wait - yes I am. If you're the commish and you play the guy who got the adjustment and DON'T adjust? How do you NOT come out even worse?