:MERGED: RB D. Williams Thread (2 Viewers)

[Ministry of Pain]

You really think being drafted about 5 spots higher is a huge deal? Also you do realize the Panthers drafted Deshaun when they had Stephen Davis right? I didn't realize Dwill was a better receiver, that's news to me. Can I go out on a limb and guess you blew a high draft pick last season on Williams and this could be why you believe he is so much better? Just a shot in the dark.

Now besides your fantasy hopes and dreams, did you actually watch any Panther games last year? Did D. Williams really impress you? I watched every one of them and left unimpressed and honestly don't see Williams as being clearly anything, besides shorter. By the way, I don't own either of these guys in any league so my opinion isn't born out of wishful thinking.

You are in for a rude awakening. Williams: better receiver, better vision as a runner. Foster will be the backup before mid season.

I heard the same exact thing this time last year, it didn't happen.

Foster was completely ineffective last year. You should do a search and look at Otis's Debunking Deshaun Thread from last year.

Foster was completely ineffective last year.Foster and Dwilly had the same YPC average last year.

In games where DWill got more than 10 carries and there were only 5 of them, in those 5 games he had 88 carries for 407 yds which is an avg of 4.6 ypc. I think that is clearly better and now they have improved the OL thru the draft and going to a zone blocking scheme. DWill had 33 catches in limited opps last season, surely with no clear WR2 or a TE this number could go well past 50+. He averaged 17.7 ppg in the 5 games I highlighted where he was used. In PPR leagues where would that rank him?

275 points when factored over 16 games.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I drafted him 2.06 in a start up Dynasty League(Hyper Active 2), and I also traded Ronnie brown for him in an experts best ball league so to say I am high on DWill is an understatement.

He racked 175 total yds including over 100+ thru the air against Philly late in the season last year. To me that was like Gore exploding late in 2005, you have to look further than his numbers but he did only have about 125 carries to Foster's 250...I feel those numbers will be reversed. Plus he had 33 catches in limited duty, that number will rise to at least 50+ this season with nothing proven at the WR2 or a TE on this roster.

You want some more hype/facts...how bout the fact Foster actually made it thru the year last year without an injury, wanna bet he gets dinged this season. People are spending all their time gobbling up Bush, Addai, and Maroney, all with good reason I might add but DeAngelo will be right there in the mix and has a chacne to really shine. As the preseason unfolds it will become very clear that he is the starter as Foster redid his contract and is taking back up money now, that wouldn't happen if he thought he was getting the lion's share of the work, he isn't.

DWill is one of those rare backs in the NFL that can be a 3 down back, not too many of those.

More you say? Sure.

In games where he actually got more than 10 carries and there were only 5 of them, 4 coming in the last 6-7 weeks of the season which means they were bringing him along slowly. But check this out.

88 carries for 407 yds which is 4.6 ypc and remember that OL was decimated last season. They are now going to a zone blocking program which will benefit DWill, and they drafted Kalil to anchor that line at Center. In those 5 games DWill scored in PPR leagues...20.8, 15.8, 11.6, 30.5, 9.7 for an avg of 17.7 points per game...where does that put him in the rankings? That is a total of over 275 points...has to be top10 material and that is if he didn't improve from last season which I think he surely will.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

he set the NCAA all-time record for yards from scrimmage. he's absolutely capable of being an everydown RB in the NFL.he's listed at almost 220 pounds. I have no doubts he can easily handle 20+ carries/game.

He can run and catch, 33 receptions in limited playing time this past season. He should be able to get north of 50+ catches with no WR2 or TE to speak of right now. He can be on the filed all the time, with a series here or there for Foster...DWill should see 60-70% of the workload this season.

 

[Da Guru]

I see at least one more season of a D-Willy De-Foster split.

Foster is making big dough and I thought for sure the Panthers would cut him. Keeping him has me concerned about D-Willy as a feature back this year.

 

[Franchise Playa]

I see at least one more season of a D-Willy De-Foster split.Foster is making big dough and I thought for sure the Panthers would cut him. Keeping him has me concerned about D-Willy as a feature back this year.

Foster took a pay cut this offseason...I think he is making near the min now so that is not an issue anymore.

 

[Dhizz]

I see at least one more season of a D-Willy De-Foster split.Foster is making big dough and I thought for sure the Panthers would cut him. Keeping him has me concerned about D-Willy as a feature back this year.

Foster took a pay cut this offseason...I think he is making near the min now so that is not an issue anymore.

Foster defered some of the money, he didn't take a cut. It was done to create cap room, not cut his pay.

 

[Franchise Playa]

I see at least one more season of a D-Willy De-Foster split.Foster is making big dough and I thought for sure the Panthers would cut him. Keeping him has me concerned about D-Willy as a feature back this year.

Foster took a pay cut this offseason...I think he is making near the min now so that is not an issue anymore.

Foster defered some of the money, he didn't take a cut. It was done to create cap room, not cut his pay.

Ahh thanks for the clarification...I read about it in passing a few months ago and was not completely sure. Just knew he wasn't getting the same money this year.

 

[AB in DC]

No, he didn't get a pay cut, and he didn't defer anything. Just the opposite -- he took some of his expected salary as an early bonus.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Link

Williams: Zone blocking scheme has more options Panther says running backs will get to choose their holes

CHARLES CHANDLER

DeAngelo Williams was brimming with enthusiasm Thursday about the Carolina Panthers' new zone blocking scheme, which he said mirrors the style that made him a college All-American.

"It's exactly like the Memphis offense when I was running there," he said.

Williams, the Panthers' 2006 first-round draft pick, had a mildly successful rookie season last year with 501 yards rushing and scored two touchdowns.

He's hoping for much better results and believes the scheme being installed by new offensive coordinator Jeff Davidson will suit his strengths. It gives him and the team's other running backs the ability to choose their own holes rather than having a more designated area at which to run.

"That's something a lot of running backs love doing," he said. "You're never wrong, and we like not being wrong."

Williams rushed for 6,026 career yards at Memphis, which ranked fourth in NCAA Division I-A history.

The Panthers rarely gave Williams leeway to pick his lanes last season, though he gained 82 yards in a Dec. 24 win at Atlanta when he lined up at quarterback and chose where to run.

"The offensive line doesn't have to change their blocks at all (in the zone system) because their blocks are still the same," said Williams.

"You just choose the hole you want to choose, and make sure you make everybody else right -- (including) yourself."

Williams said he's confident the offensive linemen can adjust after using a more traditional approach under former offensive coordinator Dan Henning.

"We've got big, strong, agile guys up front," he said. "They're not just the big, sloppy 6-8, 400-pound guys. These guys can move out there."

Williams is expected to share playing time again with DeShaun Foster, and he made it clear he doesn't mind platooning.

"That's one thing I've learned in the National Football League," he said. "Just one running back won't get you there. All the good running backs who had successful years (last season) had a guy behind him who was doing equally as well, if not better."

He said he has dropped about five pounds from last season, from 217 to 212, and hopes to play at that weight this season.

:lickschops:He's this year's Frank Gore.

 

[H.K.]

Williams is expected to share playing time again with DeShaun Foster, and he made it clear he doesn't mind platooning.

Is there an RB tandem in the league that screams handcuff more than Carolina? Both RB's will play to start the season. Williams is more likely to emerge and will have the higher ADP but Fox loves his vets. However, the key ingrediant is that both have shown limited ability to stay healthy. If Williams or Foster gets hurt, you'll wind up with an RB who should get decent stats based soley on workload.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

Williams is expected to share playing time again with DeShaun Foster, and he made it clear he doesn't mind platooning.

Is there an RB tandem in the league that screams handcuff more than Carolina?(1) Both RB's will play to start the season. Williams is more likely to emerge and will have the higher ADP but Fox loves his vets. However, the key ingrediant is that both have shown limited ability to stay healthy(2). If Williams or Foster gets hurt, you'll wind up with an RB who should get decent stats based soley on workload.

(1) - The Minnesota Vikings(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

 

[Kilgore Trout]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

That's it? The argument about him having "limited ability to stay healthy" is dubious at best then?

 

[BigJim®]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun.

1200 rushing

400 receiving

15 TDs

Top 10 dynasty RB going forward.

 

[Chunky Soup]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun. 1200 rushing400 receiving15 TDsTop 10 dynasty RB going forward.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun. 1200 rushing400 receiving15 TDsTop 10 dynasty RB going forward.

It left last year when I was that the Vikes should draft him in round 1. Now, I'd rather have AP than DWill, but still...

 

[Dhizz]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

That's it? The argument about him having "limited ability to stay healthy" is dubious at best then?

In his 1st year in the NFL, he missed significant time with injury.Does that mean anything? Who knows? I'd rather he didn't get hurt, but I'm not sure it's something to get overly excited about. I'd be more worried that Williams took over for Foster when he was out, then Foster returned to his starting job. Williams didn't exactly run away with the job. The way people were talking last year, it was Williams God given right to start, and Foster was merely keeping the seat warm. But back to the injury stuff, it's interesting to look at Portis/Gore fantasy ranks. If you look back, who has the more serious injury past? Probably Gore. Who has had more surgeries? Gore. Who has only one healthy season under his belt? Gore. But because Portis' injuries came last year, nothing before then really matters. Same with Gore. He was a guy who could never stay healthy. Now he's a top 5 dynasty RB you build your team around. Regardless if injuries really mean much, or if you can really be injury prone, perception is really all that matters for a players value. As for whom I'd want on my squad as RB1 - Portis without question. Back to the real point, Dwill/Maroney both cause me to hesitate. Yes because of the injuries. I never like a rookie missing 25% of the season with an injury, in backup duty. I realize it happens, it just doesn't sit well. I wouldn't knock him way down because of it, but in risk management, you simply can't ignore it.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

That's it? The argument about him having "limited ability to stay healthy" is dubious at best then?

I was just answering the question. I don't think one injury in your first year as a pro is enough information to determine how healthy you will be going forward. I am also on the DeAngelo bandwagon this year. I think he is a better running back for this system than DeShaun, as he makes quicker decisions. Handcuffing them is certainly a good idea, and I think the Carolina running game will surprise some folks this year.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

That's it? The argument about him having "limited ability to stay healthy" is dubious at best then?

In his 1st year in the NFL, he missed significant time with injury.Does that mean anything? Who knows? I'd rather he didn't get hurt, but I'm not sure it's something to get overly excited about. I'd be more worried that Williams took over for Foster when he was out, then Foster returned to his starting job. Williams didn't exactly run away with the job. The way people were talking last year, it was Williams God given right to start, and Foster was merely keeping the seat warm. But back to the injury stuff, it's interesting to look at Portis/Gore fantasy ranks. If you look back, who has the more serious injury past? Probably Gore. Who has had more surgeries? Gore. Who has only one healthy season under his belt? Gore. But because Portis' injuries came last year, nothing before then really matters. Same with Gore. He was a guy who could never stay healthy. Now he's a top 5 dynasty RB you build your team around. Regardless if injuries really mean much, or if you can really be injury prone, perception is really all that matters for a players value. As for whom I'd want on my squad as RB1 - Portis without question. Back to the real point, Dwill/Maroney both cause me to hesitate. Yes because of the injuries. I never like a rookie missing 25% of the season with an injury, in backup duty. I realize it happens, it just doesn't sit well. I wouldn't knock him way down because of it, but in risk management, you simply can't ignore it.

I'm not a dynasty player, so my opinions here should be taken with a grain of salt...More than any other position, injury is a risk to the value of all backs in the league. In that case, though, you fall into the trap of trying to predict injury which is absolutely impossible.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

(2) - What was Williams' injury last year?

An ankle injury had him out for the month of October last year.

That's it? The argument about him having "limited ability to stay healthy" is dubious at best then?

I was just answering the question. I don't think one injury in your first year as a pro is enough information to determine how healthy you will be going forward. I am also on the DeAngelo bandwagon this year. I think he is a better running back for this system than DeShaun, as he makes quicker decisions. Handcuffing them is certainly a good idea, and I think the Carolina running game will surprise some folks this year.

I know you were. I was really just asking. Since I didn't have any Panther players on any of my rosters last year, I paid almost zero attention to the squad, so I really didn't know.

 

[Beaumont]

I have zero interest in Deangelo Williams at the going rates. He is not even an option as long as I continue to hear news about him being used in the return game and Foster is still the starter.

I am not saying he does not have good value, both dynasty and redraft. I am saying he aint worth what people are paying ...

 

[BigJim®]

In his 1st year in the NFL, he missed significant time with injury.Does that mean anything?

I'll help you out here. No, it means nothing. When a guy was on the field enough to rack up 6,026 collegiate rushing yards (4th all time), it's almost impossible to classify him an injury risk based on a single ankle sprain. That's not to say he can't or won't get injured again; I just don't buy that he's a greater risk than any RB given his established ability to handle a lions share of carries. In fact, with his running style I'd say he is less likely to take the sort of direct hits that often lead to injuries. He keeps defenders off balance. Now, he did have the broken leg I believe the final game of his sophomore year but it healed in time for the following season.

 

[BigJim®]

as long as I continue to hear news about him being used in the return game and Foster is still the starter.

Link?

 

[Beaumont]

as long as I continue to hear news about him being used in the return game and Foster is still the starter.

Link?

I get my Panther news here: http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/carolina-panthers/You will see current threads re: mini camp, how Foster looks good, how the backs will almost certainly split time , and and how in the minicamps they have Deangelo taking reps returning kicks.

 

[Yenrub]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun. 1200 rushing400 receiving15 TDsTop 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

 

[H.K.]

Williams is expected to share playing time again with DeShaun Foster, and he made it clear he doesn't mind platooning.

Is there an RB tandem in the league that screams handcuff more than Carolina?

(1) - The Minnesota Vikings

In a redraft, I'd take ADP without worrying about getting Chester. ADP is the bigger back with a much better pedigree. I wouldn't want Williams without Foster though. Foster is bigger and has been with the team a while, these are factors in his favor that Taylor does not have over ADP. FWIW, I wouldn't want to count on any Panther or Viking as my RB2 for week 1 based on how things sit today, either.

 

[gman8343]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun. 1200 rushing400 receiving15 TDsTop 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

I could see the yardage if he wrests the starting gig away from Foster early in the year, but 15 TDs seems incredibly optimistic.

 

[AB in DC]

Link

He's hoping for much better results and believes the scheme being installed by new offensive coordinator Jeff Davidson will suit his strengths. It gives him and the team's other running backs the ability to choose their own holes rather than having a more designated area at which to run.

"That's something a lot of running backs love doing," he said. "You're never wrong, and we like not being wrong."

Williams rushed for 6,026 career yards at Memphis, which ranked fourth in NCAA Division I-A history.

The Panthers rarely gave Williams leeway to pick his lanes last season, though he gained 82 yards in a Dec. 24 win at Atlanta when he lined up at quarterback and chose where to run.

"The offensive line doesn't have to change their blocks at all (in the zone system) because their blocks are still the same," said Williams.

"You just choose the hole you want to choose, and make sure you make everybody else right -- (including) yourself."

This part concerns me. The last thing we need as ff owners is for a young RB to start freelancing or over-thinking.I've heard it said that the biggest adjustment for a college RB entering the NFL is that holes often don't open up until the last fraction of a second. If he starts hesistating because the holes he used to see in Memphis aren't there at first, he could be in for a very rough time.

 

[H.K.]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun.

1200 rushing

400 receiving

15 TDs

Top 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

I could see the yardage if he wrests the starting gig away from Foster early in the year, but 15 TDs seems incredibly optimistic.

I can't. Anyone expecting those numbers may want to do a little homework on how many Panther RB's have rushed for 1200 yards in a season, then look at how many times that same player had 400 receiving yards the same year. It's a short list....because nobody is on it. There would have to be a coaching change and a huge offensive shift in philosophy to focus on getting the ball to Williams for him to even sniff those numbers.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun.

1200 rushing

400 receiving

15 TDs

Top 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

I could see the yardage if he wrests the starting gig away from Foster early in the year, but 15 TDs seems incredibly optimistic.

I can't. Anyone expecting those numbers may want to do a little homework on how many Panther RB's have rushed for 1200 yards in a season, then look at how many times that same player had 400 receiving yards the same year. It's a short list....because nobody is on it. There would have to be a coaching change and a huge offensive shift in philosophy to focus on getting the ball to Williams for him to even sniff those numbers.

There has been. They have a new OC and have implemented the Zone Blocking Scheme. The impact of the new OC is dependent on how much you believe Fox is involved.

 

[H.K.]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun.

1200 rushing

400 receiving

15 TDs

Top 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

I could see the yardage if he wrests the starting gig away from Foster early in the year, but 15 TDs seems incredibly optimistic.

I can't. Anyone expecting those numbers may want to do a little homework on how many Panther RB's have rushed for 1200 yards in a season, then look at how many times that same player had 400 receiving yards the same year. It's a short list....because nobody is on it. There would have to be a coaching change and a huge offensive shift in philosophy to focus on getting the ball to Williams for him to even sniff those numbers.

There has been. They have a new OC and have implemented the Zone Blocking Scheme. The impact of the new OC is dependent on how much you believe Fox is involved.

Those are not shifts in offensive philosphy focused on getting the ball to Williams. The reason there is a new OC in place is because the OL was decimated and the defense/ST gave the team lousy field position last season. As a result the offense stunk. It was no secret in the league that the Panthers couldn't beat anyone running the ball with a patchwork line, so defenses had a big advantage. The fans locally were in an uproar because they thought the playcalling was poor and Delhomme was making bad decisions. It was ridiculous around here. The end result was that Henning got canned in the off season so fans could feel like changes were being made and team wouldn't suffer poor ticket sales after a hugely disappointing season.

Carolina fans are not die-hards, the team hasn't been here long enough. On the whole, they also don't understand football all that well, this is college hoops country. PSL holders could be in it for status as much as liking the NFL. In order to keep people interested in the team (in a positive manner) and coming back to BAC stadium, Richardson had to do something from a business perspective....and going with a new OC was part of it.

There are many factors at play here, but sometimes information you read in papers is fed to writers for a reason. Knowing who it came from and why it was said are the key things, at times more so that what was actually said.

 

[Chunky Soup]

So when does the D.Willimas bandwagon leave the station? I'm calling shotgun.

1200 rushing

400 receiving

15 TDs

Top 10 dynasty RB going forward.

I sure hope that is right, not counting on it but it would be nice.

I could see the yardage if he wrests the starting gig away from Foster early in the year, but 15 TDs seems incredibly optimistic.

I can't. Anyone expecting those numbers may want to do a little homework on how many Panther RB's have rushed for 1200 yards in a season, then look at how many times that same player had 400 receiving yards the same year. It's a short list....because nobody is on it. There would have to be a coaching change and a huge offensive shift in philosophy to focus on getting the ball to Williams for him to even sniff those numbers.

There has been. They have a new OC and have implemented the Zone Blocking Scheme. The impact of the new OC is dependent on how much you believe Fox is involved.

Those are not shifts in offensive philosphy focused on getting the ball to Williams. The reason there is a new OC in place is because the OL was decimated and the defense/ST gave the team lousy field position last season. As a result the offense stunk. It was no secret in the league that the Panthers couldn't beat anyone running the ball with a patchwork line, so defenses had a big advantage. The fans locally were in an uproar because they thought the playcalling was poor and Delhomme was making bad decisions. It was ridiculous around here. The end result was that Henning got canned in the off season so fans could feel like changes were being made and team wouldn't suffer poor ticket sales after a hugely disappointing season.

Carolina fans are not die-hards, the team hasn't been here long enough. On the whole, they also don't understand football all that well, this is college hoops country. PSL holders could be in it for status as much as liking the NFL. In order to keep people interested in the team (in a positive manner) and coming back to BAC stadium, Richardson had to do something from a business perspective....and going with a new OC was part of it.

There are many factors at play here, but sometimes information you read in papers is fed to writers for a reason. Knowing who it came from and why it was said are the key things, at times more so that what was actually said.

Dude. I'm really surprised you haven't given up on this. FBG depth charts call for DeAngelo Williams to be starter. Every single news article says Williams is starter. Every single news article interviewing coaches talk about WILLIAMS, not FOSTER. For example,

Starting RB: The starting job is DeAngelo's, and new offensive coordinator Jeff Davidson plans on building this offense around Williams and a run first philosophy.

What else do you want? Let's see. Williams was better statistically as a rookie than Foster last year, even though Foster was primed for a big year. Williams averaged almost .2 YPC better than Foster. Rounding makes it look more like .1. Williams YPC last year was better than Foster's career YPC, and almost as high as Foster's career high YPC. Williams reached Foster's career high in receptions last year. Williams yards/reception absolutely crushed Foster's yards/reception, beats his career average and almost reaches his career high. Williams caught 33 of 37 balls thrown his way. Foster caught 32 of 37.

Remember, yes, Williams is a rookie. And, if you watch them play, Williams is far superior.

I don't think there is a remote question of Williams getting the bulk of the carries. He will. Assuming Williams gets the bulk of the carries, what type of production can we expect? Last year the CAR offense was pretty pitiful. Williams played QB one game, offensive line injuries, Weinke playing QB, Smith injured. Things were bad. Let's say this is the floor.

Last year Foster saw 227 carries and Williams saw 121. It is not a stretch to say these will flip-flop, and then have Williams see even more. Remember, the reason these were so spread out was because of injuries. Barring injury, the starter will get a large bulk of the carries. If Williams sees 300 carries and his YPC doesn't change, he hits 1200 yards.

This is assuming their line isn't better. This is assuming Williams plays QB a game. This is assuming Kalil doesn't help. this is assuming the zone blocking flops. this is assuming everything we've been reading is wrong and all things are the same as last year, except Williams gets more carries. This won't happen and it wouldn't be surprising to see Williams get closer to 5 YPC, in which case he needs 240 carries. This is about the same Foster had last year.

It is not a stretch by any means for Williams to top 1200 yards.

 

[H.K.]

It is not a stretch by any means for Williams to top 1200 yards....If Williams sees 300 carries and his YPC doesn't change, he hits 1200 yards.

John Fox has had one RB get 300 carries once in five seasons. Stephen Davis. A proven pounder who Williams has nothing in common with. The second most carries he's given one RB was Foster last year at 227.I won't cut and paste your whole post in the interest of saving space, but there were some things in it that could be true and others that had me flat out . BTW, you left out the 400 receiving yards and 15 TDs.

Williams could be the starter. Just because he is though, it does not mean he is the feature RB and it isn't a full fledged RBBC.

Williams could rush for 1200 yards if Foster gets hurt and Williams stays healthy. I wouldn't draft Williams expecting all three of those things to happen in 2007 though. If you want to, be my guest.

 

[Beaumont]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

 

[Andy Dufresne]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

That'll change when he lays eggs against St. Louis and Houston to start the season.I've seen enough of Foster the last two years to pass judgement on him. IMO, he's very limited in talent and will quickly lose his job to Williams.

 

[H.K.]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

 

[Beaumont]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

So why, for example, spend the resources to get DWill in any format when the same resources will easily get you Caddy (a higher drafted RB with a lock on the starting gig)?

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

This is one of those situations where the assumption of rational coaching makes all the difference. If you assume Fox, Davidson, etc. are rational, then you have to project Williams getting the bulk of the workload. The new offense better suits his skills, he was very promising last year, and Foster has just failed to seize the opportunity he's been given - there's no reason to believe he'll have a magical transformation this offseason.

Of course, assuming coaches will make rational decisions is not always wise...

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

So why, for example, spend the resources to get DWill in any format when the same resources will easily get you Caddy (a higher drafted RB with a lock on the starting gig)?

For the same reason you would take MJD or Bush - greater talent + less than feature back touches still = better fantasy play - and unlike Deuce or Fred Taylor, Foster hasn't done enough to believe that they HAVE TO give him 12-15 touches a game - it's not hard to picture Williams outplaying Foster decisively enough to force the coaches to give him the feature back load.

 

[Chunky Soup]

It is not a stretch by any means for Williams to top 1200 yards....If Williams sees 300 carries and his YPC doesn't change, he hits 1200 yards.

John Fox has had one RB get 300 carries once in five seasons. Stephen Davis. A proven pounder who Williams has nothing in common with. The second most carries he's given one RB was Foster last year at 227.

I'll just touch on this in interest of space: Injuries. 2003 Stephen Davis rushed for 1448 in 14 games.

2004 Stephen Davis injured first game. Foster injured 4th game. Davis injury so bad many reports he would be out for 2005.

2005 Davis limps in, has among his worst year. Plays 13 games, career low 3.0 YPA. He splits time with Foster.

2006 Injuries again, Oline injuries, QB problems, split time.

It is completely unfair to base the CAR tendencies on these injury riddled seasons. They are taking care of the run this offseason. Thats all you read about. New offense philosphy, new blocking scheme, upgraded OLine.

I would say they care about the running game a lot and being that Williams looks to get most of the looks, he should have high production.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

So why, for example, spend the resources to get DWill in any format when the same resources will easily get you Caddy (a higher drafted RB with a lock on the starting gig)?

Did you see what Cadillac DID with the starting gig last year?

 

[Beaumont]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

So why, for example, spend the resources to get DWill in any format when the same resources will easily get you Caddy (a higher drafted RB with a lock on the starting gig)?

For the same reason you would take MJD or Bush - greater talent + less than feature back touches still = better fantasy play - and unlike Deuce or Fred Taylor, Foster hasn't done enough to believe that they HAVE TO give him 12-15 touches a game - it's not hard to picture Williams outplaying Foster decisively enough to force the coaches to give him the feature back load.

If you are saying Deangelo is a better play (esp. dynasty) than Foster, I think we all agree ...If you are saying that Deangelo is a greater talent than Caddy, I respectfully disagree ... best case scenario for Deangelo I see them as fairly equal, with Caddy having a better situation (and expecting him to return to numbers closer to his rookie year than last year) ...

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

All I have to say is if you look at what the guys say who follow Carolina all the time, and obsess about them on their message board, it sure seems to me that many/most seem to think Deshaun is still the starter (and I don't own him or Williams in any leagues) ...

http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/caroli...ster-start.html

FBG/ourlads/etc. depth charts be damned. DWill buyers beware ...

The thing is, it probably doesn't really matter who the starter is, both Foster and Williams will be utilized a decent amount. Even guys like Hoover and Goings get worked into the mix on occasion, too. People who post differently are either intentionally posting misinformation or making their dreams public.

So why, for example, spend the resources to get DWill in any format when the same resources will easily get you Caddy (a higher drafted RB with a lock on the starting gig)?

For the same reason you would take MJD or Bush - greater talent + less than feature back touches still = better fantasy play - and unlike Deuce or Fred Taylor, Foster hasn't done enough to believe that they HAVE TO give him 12-15 touches a game - it's not hard to picture Williams outplaying Foster decisively enough to force the coaches to give him the feature back load.

If you are saying Deangelo is a better play (esp. dynasty) than Foster, I think we all agree ...I simply disagree if you are saying that Deangelo is a greater talent than Caddy, I respectfully disagree ... best case scenario for Deangelo I see them as fairly equal, with Caddy having a better situation (and expecting him to return to numbers closer to his rookie year than last year) ...

I would say their talent is equal, but the possibility of Caddy having lingering injury issues (Jim Flynn from the Pewter Report refused to dismiss durability as a big reason Caddy struggled last year, particularly his back issues), + the reality that they could be a world of hurt at QB if Garcia reverts to Cleveland form means Caddy has own set of risks...

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Those are not shifts in offensive philosphy focused on getting the ball to Williams. The reason there is a new OC in place is because the OL was decimated and the defense/ST gave the team lousy field position last season. As a result the offense stunk. It was no secret in the league that the Panthers couldn't beat anyone running the ball with a patchwork line, so defenses had a big advantage. The fans locally were in an uproar because they thought the playcalling was poor and Delhomme was making bad decisions. It was ridiculous around here. The end result was that Henning got canned in the off season so fans could feel like changes were being made and team wouldn't suffer poor ticket sales after a hugely disappointing season. Carolina fans are not die-hards, the team hasn't been here long enough. On the whole, they also don't understand football all that well, this is college hoops country. PSL holders could be in it for status as much as liking the NFL. In order to keep people interested in the team (in a positive manner) and coming back to BAC stadium, Richardson had to do something from a business perspective....and going with a new OC was part of it.There are many factors at play here, but sometimes information you read in papers is fed to writers for a reason. Knowing who it came from and why it was said are the key things, at times more so that what was actually said.

While you are correct about the lack of turnovers and bad special teams play, that was not the reason our offense struggled. It was the lack of a consistent running game. Under Henning's tenure at Carolina, the running game was consistently in the bottom third except for one year (their Super Bowl year with Stephen Davis). The fact is that they did not have the personel to run Henning's offense, and instead of adapting his offense to suit the strength of the players he kept trying the sam thing over and over again. Honestly, the best coached game that Henning had last year was when they used DeAngelo as the 'QB' on third downs against that Atlanta game. Other than that, Henning showed little creativity or adaptiveness. Henning was a great coach, but his time at Carolina had come to an end, and rightfully so.Which brings us to this year. Will the running game be better? I think so, and it really can't be much worse than it was. There is an entirely new playbook being implemented this year with a changed offensive line blocking scheme. And yes, these are shifts in philosophy, but no, it does not guarantee that DeAngelo will be the man in Carolina. There are some looming questions about the Carolina running game. First, will it be effective? Can the new scheme improve upon the old one? Is the offensive line suited for zone blocking? And finally, which running back will benefit the most in this new offense? With all these questions, I can understand the hesitancy of many FF owners. I definitely wouldn't go too high on either back. But if you find yourself in a league with owners that are overly concerned about this situation, I think there is potential for a bargain pick that will have great results.

 

[H.K.]

This is one of those situations where the assumption of rational coaching makes all the difference. If you assume Fox, Davidson, etc. are rational, then you have to project Williams getting the bulk of the workload. The new offense better suits his skills, he was very promising last year, and Foster has just failed to seize the opportunity he's been given - there's no reason to believe he'll have a magical transformation this offseason.Of course, assuming coaches will make rational decisions is not always wise...

Williams has more elusiveness and "wow" factor with the ball, but there is way more to the game than making the first guy miss on occasion.The two are different backs with different skill sets. At times, Williams was horrendous in pass protection last year. QB's don't forget that, and neither do defenses. It's a liability for audibles and it hurts the offense whenever a poor pass protector is on the field. When your RB fans on a block, you're punting. When he picks it up and you convert, the series continues. It may be irrational to play a veteran RB who does the silly little things to win football games and doesn't post good fantasy numbers, but I guess that's what Super Bowl coaches care about...seems crazy, but its true.

 

[H.K.]

While you are correct about the lack of turnovers and bad special teams play, that was not the reason our offense struggled. It was the lack of a consistent running game.

Which was a result of losing Wharton and Wahle early in the season.

 

[Sigmund Bloom]

This is one of those situations where the assumption of rational coaching makes all the difference. If you assume Fox, Davidson, etc. are rational, then you have to project Williams getting the bulk of the workload. The new offense better suits his skills, he was very promising last year, and Foster has just failed to seize the opportunity he's been given - there's no reason to believe he'll have a magical transformation this offseason.Of course, assuming coaches will make rational decisions is not always wise...

Williams has more elusiveness and "wow" factor with the ball, but there is way more to the game than making the first guy miss on occasion.The two are different backs with different skill sets. At times, Williams was horrendous in pass protection last year. QB's don't forget that, and neither do defenses. It's a liability for audibles and it hurts the offense whenever a poor pass protector is on the field. When your RB fans on a block, you're punting. When he picks it up and you convert, the series continues. It may be irrational to play a veteran RB who does the silly little things to win football games and doesn't post good fantasy numbers, but I guess that's what Super Bowl coaches care about...seems crazy, but its true.

I'll concede that any RB has to be able to pass protect to be in there on obvious passing downs, but that's the minority of the time. The rationality argument comes in when you look at the distribution of touches, not when you look at who's in there on 3rd down.

 

[Andy Dufresne]

This is one of those situations where the assumption of rational coaching makes all the difference. If you assume Fox, Davidson, etc. are rational, then you have to project Williams getting the bulk of the workload. The new offense better suits his skills, he was very promising last year, and Foster has just failed to seize the opportunity he's been given - there's no reason to believe he'll have a magical transformation this offseason.Of course, assuming coaches will make rational decisions is not always wise...

Williams has more elusiveness and "wow" factor with the ball, but there is way more to the game than making the first guy miss on occasion.The two are different backs with different skill sets. At times, Williams was horrendous in pass protection last year. QB's don't forget that, and neither do defenses. It's a liability for audibles and it hurts the offense whenever a poor pass protector is on the field. When your RB fans on a block, you're punting. When he picks it up and you convert, the series continues. It may be irrational to play a veteran RB who does the silly little things to win football games and doesn't post good fantasy numbers, but I guess that's what Super Bowl coaches care about...seems crazy, but its true.

I guess one thing to keep an eye on then is how well Williams pass protects this year.He's no longer a rookie.

 

[H.K.]

This is one of those situations where the assumption of rational coaching makes all the difference. If you assume Fox, Davidson, etc. are rational, then you have to project Williams getting the bulk of the workload. The new offense better suits his skills, he was very promising last year, and Foster has just failed to seize the opportunity he's been given - there's no reason to believe he'll have a magical transformation this offseason.Of course, assuming coaches will make rational decisions is not always wise...

Williams has more elusiveness and "wow" factor with the ball, but there is way more to the game than making the first guy miss on occasion.The two are different backs with different skill sets. At times, Williams was horrendous in pass protection last year. QB's don't forget that, and neither do defenses. It's a liability for audibles and it hurts the offense whenever a poor pass protector is on the field. When your RB fans on a block, you're punting. When he picks it up and you convert, the series continues. It may be irrational to play a veteran RB who does the silly little things to win football games and doesn't post good fantasy numbers, but I guess that's what Super Bowl coaches care about...seems crazy, but its true.

I'll concede that any RB has to be able to pass protect to be in there on obvious passing downs, but that's the minority of the time. The rationality argument comes in when you look at the distribution of touches, not when you look at who's in there on 3rd down.

Passes and audibles happen on 1st and 2nd down, too. Being irrational is putting a player on the field who does not or can not pass protect in those situations. Distribution of touches is associated with reliance on a player knowing what to do in any situation, not just when they are getting the ball. Fox played Foster because he was the best guy to have on the field for the team the majority of the time. Fox has a lot more riding on the Carolina RB situation than any of us, and he'll play the guy he trusts will give the team the best chance to win. He also knows a hell of a lot more about who those people are than any of us do.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

While you are correct about the lack of turnovers and bad special teams play, that was not the reason our offense struggled. It was the lack of a consistent running game.

Which was a result of losing Wharton and Wahle early in the season.

In Henning's entire tenure, the highest rank in yards per carry was 17th. As a matter of fact, it was 31, 17, 28, 29, 19. For yardage it was 25, 7, 28, 19, 24. Total offense was 31, 16, 13, 22, 24. This wasn't just a one year problem.