:MERGED: RB D. Williams Thread (1 Viewer)

[H.K.]

While you are correct about the lack of turnovers and bad special teams play, that was not the reason our offense struggled. It was the lack of a consistent running game.

Which was a result of losing Wharton and Wahle early in the season.

In Henning's entire tenure, the highest rank in yards per carry was 17th. As a matter of fact, it was 31, 17, 28, 29, 19. For yardage it was 25, 7, 28, 19, 24. Total offense was 31, 16, 13, 22, 24. This wasn't just a one year problem.

Problem is an interesting word to use:Immediate record before Fox/Henning - 1-15

Immediate record after Fox/Henning - 7-9

Five year record before Fox/Henning - 27 wins 53 losses no playoffs

Five year record of Fox/Henning- 44 wins 36 losses with two NFC Championship game appearances & 1 SB

I'd say the problems were before he got there.

Also, the leading rushers during Henning's time frame were Foster the past two years, Nick Goings, Stephen Davis, and Lamar Smith. Not exactly the personnel to be associated with a high YPC, but if the team is playing ball control/field position/strong defense as a way to win games, YPC is a misleading stat.

 

[bonesman]

I am not saying he does not have good value, both dynasty and redraft. I am saying he aint worth what people are paying ...

uhhh.... what??

 

[BassNBrew]

I think a lot of people are forgeting the history of an inferior S. Davis starting most of the season in front of a better Foster. The line issues aren't going to be any better with the same personal that's a year older and slower.

 

[Biabreakable]

I think a lot of people are forgeting the history of an inferior S. Davis starting most of the season in front of a better Foster. The line issues aren't going to be any better with the same personal that's a year older and slower.

You do not think the offensive line personel will be better suited to execute the ZBS than a power oriented blocking scheme? A blocking scheme that was in place because of how it complimented Stephen Davis?

 

[Dhizz]

I think a lot of people are forgeting the history of an inferior S. Davis starting most of the season in front of a better Foster. The line issues aren't going to be any better with the same personal that's a year older and slower.

Panthers are pretty much the black hole for RBs. The only thing you want from the Panthers is the #1 WR, because he's gold even if his nickname is Moose.

 

[AB in DC]

I guess one thing to keep an eye on then is how well Williams pass protects this year.He's no longer a rookie.

Most rookie RBs struggle in pass protection. That doesn't mean he will (or won't) struggle in his second year.The key to me is that Foster has had plenty of opportunities to take over as a workhorse back, and he's failed. If Fox had any confidence in Foster, they would never have drafted Williams in the first place. Whereas we still haven't seen Williams's ceiling.

 

[BassNBrew]

I think a lot of people are forgeting the history of an inferior S. Davis starting most of the season in front of a better Foster. The line issues aren't going to be any better with the same personal that's a year older and slower.

You do not think the offensive line personel will be better suited to execute the ZBS than a power oriented blocking scheme? A blocking scheme that was in place because of how it complimented Stephen Davis?

I may be in the minority, but either you can block or you can't. A quality lineman will do well in either scheme.

 

[H.K.]

The key to me is that Foster has had plenty of opportunities to take over as a workhorse back, and he's failed. If Fox had any confidence in Foster, they would never have drafted Williams in the first place. Whereas we still haven't seen Williams's ceiling.

When exactly did Foster have the opportunity to be a workhorse RB? His one season without Davis was last year, and his performance suffered due to OL injuries. Two years ago, he was the leading rusher and outperformed Davis (4.3 YPC to 3.0 on 205 carries to 180), but was vultured by Davis at the stripe. Three years ago Davis got hurt and so did he, so Goings was the feature by default.I agree that Williams has different talents and Foster is not an elite RB, but people not close to this situation are badly misreading it if they really think Williams will be the primary ball carrier in 2007 if both are healthy.

 

[BassNBrew]

So HK...will bringing in the Brown stench improve the running game?

 

[AB in DC]

The key to me is that Foster has had plenty of opportunities to take over as a workhorse back, and he's failed. If Fox had any confidence in Foster, they would never have drafted Williams in the first place. Whereas we still haven't seen Williams's ceiling.

When exactly did Foster have the opportunity to be a workhorse RB? His one season without Davis was last year, and his performance suffered due to OL injuries. Two years ago, he was the leading rusher and outperformed Davis (4.3 YPC to 3.0 on 205 carries to 180), but was vultured by Davis at the stripe. Three years ago Davis got hurt and so did he, so Goings was the feature by default.

You said it yourself. Three years ago, he had an opportunity but got injured. Two years ago, Stephen Davis, despite his mediocre play, still took 47% of the carries. If Foster was the kind of back that people here think he is, don't you think Fox would have given him more than 53% of the carries?Last year, say what you want about the OL, but Foster barely had more carries in 2006 (227) than he did in 2005. Frankly, the die was cast when they drafted Williams, but Foster didn't do much to convince anyone that they were wrong to draft a RB so early.

 

[H.K.]

So HK...will bringing in the Brown stench improve the running game?

Having a healthy OL will have more of an impact than anything else. You said it before though, do not expect this team to be great running the ball. The offense will improve if Jake has more time to throw and the defense gets opponents off the field a whole lot better than they did last year.What's your take on Williams/Foster (barring injury) what would you expect out of carry distribution? You in agreement with those that say Williams will get 300 carries this year?

 

[H.K.]

You said it yourself. Three years ago, he had an opportunity but got injured. Two years ago, Stephen Davis, despite his mediocre play, still took 47% of the carries. If Foster was the kind of back that people here think he is, don't you think Fox would have given him more than 53% of the carries?

Fox relies on his vets, this is proof positive of what I've been trying to tell everyone. Foster was the far more effective RB, but Davis still shared the load that year. 2007 is 2005 all over again. Foster has turned into Davis and Williams is the new Foster.

Last year, say what you want about the OL, but Foster barely had more carries in 2006 (227) than he did in 2005.



Um, yeah...but 227 carries is the third most in franchise history, and Foster missed two games last year.

Frankly, the die was cast when they drafted Williams, but Foster didn't do much to convince anyone that they were wrong to draft a RB so early.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean Williams is the de facto 300 carry, every down back people are trying to pretend he is, either.

 

[Chunky Soup]

You said it yourself. Three years ago, he had an opportunity but got injured. Two years ago, Stephen Davis, despite his mediocre play, still took 47% of the carries. If Foster was the kind of back that people here think he is, don't you think Fox would have given him more than 53% of the carries?

Fox relies on his vets, this is proof positive of what I've been trying to tell everyone. Foster was the far more effective RB, but Davis still shared the load that year. 2007 is 2005 all over again. Foster has turned into Davis and Williams is the new Foster.

Last year, say what you want about the OL, but Foster barely had more carries in 2006 (227) than he did in 2005.



Um, yeah...but 227 carries is the third most in franchise history, and Foster missed two games last year.

Frankly, the die was cast when they drafted Williams, but Foster didn't do much to convince anyone that they were wrong to draft a RB so early.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean Williams is the de facto 300 carry, every down back people are trying to pretend he is, either.

1) Tell me exactly why you think Fox likes his vets so much. I've heard it before, but please enlighten me. Are you going to only ONE situation where Stephen Davis had the primary carries over Foster for two years? Couldn't it be just as likely that Fox felt Davis gave them the best chance to win at all times? Dwayne Jarrett is supposedly going to start, don't you think he would rather start a vet if this were true? Why wasn't Shelton higher on the depth chart than Williams last year, being that Williams was a rookie? What about a semi-proven-vet Goings?

You, I or anyone else don't know what else was going through Fox's mind. Does Reid only start the season with black quarterbacks because they're black? Did Reid not play Moats because he doesn't like young RBs?

We have no earthly idea. Well, unless you can provide me quotes from Fox.

2) Honestly, look at the injury history of the team. How could a RB get a 227 carry season, or a 1200 yard season as you like to point out. It's funny that you keep pointing that out, and even more funny when the main reason no one has is because of injuries, mostly from Foster.

2003 Stephen Davis rushed for 1448 in 14 games.

2004 Stephen Davis injured first game. Foster injured 4th game. Davis injury so bad many reports he would be out for 2005.

2005 Davis limps in, has among his worst year. Plays 13 games, career low 3.0 YPA. He splits time with Foster.

2006 Injuries again, Foster out 2 games, Williams out 3 games. Oline injuries, QB problems, split time.

3) Not saying he's guaranteed for 300 carries, I just think he's much more likely that Foster. I think it's a misnomer that there will be an even-split amongst the two and also a misnomer that Fox won't give the 2nd year guy the ball. So, this tells us that Williams has every chance to have a lot of carries. But, talent aside, so does Foster.However, have you read the newspaper, ESPN, FBGnews? Williams is everywhere. Foster is nowhere to be found. Williams in his rookie year, behind a decimated line and in a terrible offense has beat career highs for Foster. He also beat him in almost every statistical category for just last year, including almost 0.2 yards/carry and 4.5 yards/reception. He has an entire TC/off-season to work with now and things should only get better. I think this is a severely underrated part of this argument.

I can't see many reasons why Williams will not be given a shot as the primary ball-carrier. And, IMO if given the chance he will excel. Barring injury, CAR history shows that he will get a large percentage of the carries. And, I think this could very well be as high as 300+.

 

[BassNBrew]

So HK...will bringing in the Brown stench improve the running game?

Having a healthy OL will have more of an impact than anything else. You said it before though, do not expect this team to be great running the ball. The offense will improve if Jake has more time to throw and the defense gets opponents off the field a whole lot better than they did last year.What's your take on Williams/Foster (barring injury) what would you expect out of carry distribution? You in agreement with those that say Williams will get 300 carries this year?

Distribution will be 60/40 Williams. Williams chances at 300 carries are just slightly better than mine and that's only if NCC can't get me the tryout he's working on.

 

[TEOM]

This has probably been said but as a DeAngelo owner, do I want him to have 300 carries? I don't think I do...The strength is with his explosiveness...whether that is at 15 or 20 carries, I am not sure but I don't really want more than that on a game to game basis (and less on games that they are behind in) this year...touches in the passing game would help as well but let's break him in easy this year...

 

[Keith Lewis]

D. Williams in the 3rd = HORRIBLE pick

Foster in the 7th = BAD value

Where these guys will be drafted will not be worth it at all, draft an Anquin Boldin in the 3rd, grab a Brandon Jacobs/ Eli Manning in the 7th and thank me later.

There is no "value" in Carolinas horrific running game. If you can pick up either of these guys in the 10th you might get marginal value.

 

[Beaumont]

I am not saying he does not have good value, both dynasty and redraft. I am saying he aint worth what people are paying ...

uhhh.... what??

DWill has value as in worth. He does not have value as in bargain ...

 

[Dhizz]

1) Tell me exactly why you think Fox likes his vets so much. I've heard it before, but please enlighten me. Are you going to only ONE situation where Stephen Davis had the primary carries over Foster for two years? Couldn't it be just as likely that Fox felt Davis gave them the best chance to win at all times? Dwayne Jarrett is supposedly going to start, don't you think he would rather start a vet if this were true? Why wasn't Shelton higher on the depth chart than Williams last year, being that Williams was a rookie? What about a semi-proven-vet Goings?

You, I or anyone else don't know what else was going through Fox's mind. Does Reid only start the season with black quarterbacks because they're black? Did Reid not play Moats because he doesn't like young RBs?

We have no earthly idea. Well, unless you can provide me quotes from Fox.

2) Honestly, look at the injury history of the team. How could a RB get a 227 carry season, or a 1200 yard season as you like to point out. It's funny that you keep pointing that out, and even more funny when the main reason no one has is because of injuries, mostly from Foster.

1) If Dwill had the better year, was the better RB, why did Foster replace him as the starter when he returned from injury? Season on the line. Trying to make the playoffs, they go back to Foster as the starter. Why?Link to Jarret starting? If it's from the buzz around came, then I've also heard Foster is the starter.

3) Not saying he's guaranteed for 300 carries, I just think he's much more likely that Foster. I think it's a misnomer that there will be an even-split amongst the two and also a misnomer that Fox won't give the 2nd year guy the ball. So, this tells us that Williams has every chance to have a lot of carries. But, talent aside, so does Foster.

I just think you have no clue what misnomer means. For $100, name the word that was on DocTs vocabulary toilet paper today.Someone explain to me why Dwill was the better rb all of last year, but Foster started when he was healthy. So Fox is loyal to vets or he's an idiot. Either way, I don't see how thats encouraging.

However, have you read the newspaper, ESPN, FBGnews? Williams is everywhere. Foster is nowhere to be found. Williams in his rookie year, behind a decimated line and in a terrible offense has beat career highs for Foster. He also beat him in almost every statistical category for just last year, including almost 0.2 yards/carry and 4.5 yards/reception. He has an entire TC/off-season to work with now and things should only get better. I think this is a severely underrated part of this argument.

I can't see many reasons why Williams will not be given a shot as the primary ball-carrier. And, IMO if given the chance he will excel. Barring injury, CAR history shows that he will get a large percentage of the carries. And, I think this could very well be as high as 300+.

So wait, Dwill is getting more ink? Makes me feel better. *Lol* Sorta like the ink Dayne got last offseason? Didn't SSOG tell us he'd draft Dayne in the 3rd? Offseason hype, dime a dozen.Of course he'll get a shot. But it's a fact that the coach staff believes in Foster to some degree. Again last year, Dwill gets his starts, Foster returns from injury and resumes the starters role, in the middle of a playoff chase. Do they see him as a limited touch guy? Keep Dwill fresh? They don't like starting rookies?

Dwill showed some flashes. But there is obviously a comfort level with Foster starting. I don't see why they'd change that up. They didn't cut Foster, I don't see anything to gain by demoting him, and they'll probably be a 2 headed monster again this year. Look at the Bears, Colts, Pats, Saints. It's a copycat league, so I believe it's far more likely they split carries, then one emerges as the work horse.

 

[cscmtp]

I just traded Caddy and KWII for DeAngelo and Foster, I'm happy. Panther Power!

 

[Kilgore Trout]

From a recent Q&A of the Panthers new OC:

Q. You also talked about screen plays being a big part of the offense this year. Is that still in your plans? Davidson: “We’ve installed a new screen play every day of practice this year in summer school. So yes, we’re well on our way to where we want to be there

 

[Biabreakable]

I just traded Caddy and KWII for DeAngelo and Foster, I'm happy. Panther Power!

 

[duaneok66]

D. Williams in the 3rd = HORRIBLE pickFoster in the 7th = BAD valueWhere these guys will be drafted will not be worth it at all, draft an Anquin Boldin in the 3rd, grab a Brandon Jacobs/ Eli Manning in the 7th and thank me later.There is no "value" in Carolinas horrific running game. If you can pick up either of these guys in the 10th you might get marginal value.

good post . . .10th is a little low, but we get the point . . .

 

[Beaumont]

as long as I continue to hear news about him being used in the return game and Foster is still the starter.

Link?

I get my Panther news here: http://www.carolinahuddle.com/forum/carolina-panthers/You will see current threads re: mini camp, how Foster looks good, how the backs will almost certainly split time , and and how in the minicamps they have Deangelo taking reps returning kicks.

Panthers | Foster remains unquestioned starting tailbackWed, 4 Jul 2007 12:25:12 -0700

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports Carolina Panthers RB DeShaun Foster remains the team's unquestioned No. 1 running back entering the 2007 season. He started a career-high 14 games last season but has a long list of previous injuries on his resume. Foster, who is expected to share time with RB DeAngelo Williams this season, seems to be more productive when sharing the workload.

Panthers | Williams sheds weight

Wed, 4 Jul 2007 12:24:30 -0700

ESPN.com's Len Pasquarelli reports Carolina Panthers RB DeAngelo Williams said most of his tentativeness is now gone but he still has to learn a new blocking scheme in front of him. However, the zone-blocking techniques are familiar to him from his days in college. "I actually feel more comfortable," Williams said. "It's like second nature for me." The one-cut style running scheme is something Williams feels is very running back-friendly. Williams also shed five pounds and feels quicker at 212 pounds. He is expected to share time with RB DeShaun Foster in 2007.

 

[mdog1967]

You said it yourself. Three years ago, he had an opportunity but got injured. Two years ago, Stephen Davis, despite his mediocre play, still took 47% of the carries. If Foster was the kind of back that people here think he is, don't you think Fox would have given him more than 53% of the carries?

Fox relies on his vets, this is proof positive of what I've been trying to tell everyone. Foster was the far more effective RB, but Davis still shared the load that year. 2007 is 2005 all over again. Foster has turned into Davis and Williams is the new Foster.

Last year, say what you want about the OL, but Foster barely had more carries in 2006 (227) than he did in 2005.



Um, yeah...but 227 carries is the third most in franchise history, and Foster missed two games last year.

Frankly, the die was cast when they drafted Williams, but Foster didn't do much to convince anyone that they were wrong to draft a RB so early.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean Williams is the de facto 300 carry, every down back people are trying to pretend he is, either.

1) Tell me exactly why you think Fox likes his vets so much. I've heard it before, but please enlighten me. Are you going to only ONE situation where Stephen Davis had the primary carries over Foster for two years? Couldn't it be just as likely that Fox felt Davis gave them the best chance to win at all times? Dwayne Jarrett is supposedly going to start, don't you think he would rather start a vet if this were true? Why wasn't Shelton higher on the depth chart than Williams last year, being that Williams was a rookie? What about a semi-proven-vet Goings?

You, I or anyone else don't know what else was going through Fox's mind. Does Reid only start the season with black quarterbacks because they're black? Did Reid not play Moats because he doesn't like young RBs?

We have no earthly idea. Well, unless you can provide me quotes from Fox.

2) Honestly, look at the injury history of the team. How could a RB get a 227 carry season, or a 1200 yard season as you like to point out. It's funny that you keep pointing that out, and even more funny when the main reason no one has is because of injuries, mostly from Foster.

2003 Stephen Davis rushed for 1448 in 14 games.

2004 Stephen Davis injured first game. Foster injured 4th game. Davis injury so bad many reports he would be out for 2005.

2005 Davis limps in, has among his worst year. Plays 13 games, career low 3.0 YPA. He splits time with Foster.

2006 Injuries again, Foster out 2 games, Williams out 3 games. Oline injuries, QB problems, split time.

3) Not saying he's guaranteed for 300 carries, I just think he's much more likely that Foster. I think it's a misnomer that there will be an even-split amongst the two and also a misnomer that Fox won't give the 2nd year guy the ball. So, this tells us that Williams has every chance to have a lot of carries. But, talent aside, so does Foster.However, have you read the newspaper, ESPN, FBGnews? Williams is everywhere. Foster is nowhere to be found. Williams in his rookie year, behind a decimated line and in a terrible offense has beat career highs for Foster. He also beat him in almost every statistical category for just last year, including almost 0.2 yards/carry and 4.5 yards/reception. He has an entire TC/off-season to work with now and things should only get better. I think this is a severely underrated part of this argument.

I can't see many reasons why Williams will not be given a shot as the primary ball-carrier. And, IMO if given the chance he will excel. Barring injury, CAR history shows that he will get a large percentage of the carries. And, I think this could very well be as high as 300+.

D. Williams is a third down back. Foster no foster it dont matter, Williams is overhyped and has less talent than many backups in the league. Yes I watched him play. Good not great.

 

[GSWarriors]

You said it yourself. Three years ago, he had an opportunity but got injured. Two years ago, Stephen Davis, despite his mediocre play, still took 47% of the carries. If Foster was the kind of back that people here think he is, don't you think Fox would have given him more than 53% of the carries?

Fox relies on his vets, this is proof positive of what I've been trying to tell everyone. Foster was the far more effective RB, but Davis still shared the load that year. 2007 is 2005 all over again. Foster has turned into Davis and Williams is the new Foster.

Last year, say what you want about the OL, but Foster barely had more carries in 2006 (227) than he did in 2005.



Um, yeah...but 227 carries is the third most in franchise history, and Foster missed two games last year.

Frankly, the die was cast when they drafted Williams, but Foster didn't do much to convince anyone that they were wrong to draft a RB so early.

I agree with this, but that doesn't mean Williams is the de facto 300 carry, every down back people are trying to pretend he is, either.

1) Tell me exactly why you think Fox likes his vets so much. I've heard it before, but please enlighten me. Are you going to only ONE situation where Stephen Davis had the primary carries over Foster for two years? Couldn't it be just as likely that Fox felt Davis gave them the best chance to win at all times? Dwayne Jarrett is supposedly going to start, don't you think he would rather start a vet if this were true? Why wasn't Shelton higher on the depth chart than Williams last year, being that Williams was a rookie? What about a semi-proven-vet Goings?

You, I or anyone else don't know what else was going through Fox's mind. Does Reid only start the season with black quarterbacks because they're black? Did Reid not play Moats because he doesn't like young RBs?

We have no earthly idea. Well, unless you can provide me quotes from Fox.

2) Honestly, look at the injury history of the team. How could a RB get a 227 carry season, or a 1200 yard season as you like to point out. It's funny that you keep pointing that out, and even more funny when the main reason no one has is because of injuries, mostly from Foster.

2003 Stephen Davis rushed for 1448 in 14 games.

2004 Stephen Davis injured first game. Foster injured 4th game. Davis injury so bad many reports he would be out for 2005.

2005 Davis limps in, has among his worst year. Plays 13 games, career low 3.0 YPA. He splits time with Foster.

2006 Injuries again, Foster out 2 games, Williams out 3 games. Oline injuries, QB problems, split time.

3) Not saying he's guaranteed for 300 carries, I just think he's much more likely that Foster. I think it's a misnomer that there will be an even-split amongst the two and also a misnomer that Fox won't give the 2nd year guy the ball. So, this tells us that Williams has every chance to have a lot of carries. But, talent aside, so does Foster.However, have you read the newspaper, ESPN, FBGnews? Williams is everywhere. Foster is nowhere to be found. Williams in his rookie year, behind a decimated line and in a terrible offense has beat career highs for Foster. He also beat him in almost every statistical category for just last year, including almost 0.2 yards/carry and 4.5 yards/reception. He has an entire TC/off-season to work with now and things should only get better. I think this is a severely underrated part of this argument.

I can't see many reasons why Williams will not be given a shot as the primary ball-carrier. And, IMO if given the chance he will excel. Barring injury, CAR history shows that he will get a large percentage of the carries. And, I think this could very well be as high as 300+.

D. Williams is a third down back. Foster no foster it dont matter, Williams is overhyped and has less talent than many backups in the league. Yes I watched him play. Good not great.

Do you seriously think the Panthers drafted a RB in the first round to be a 3rd down back ?????don't think so. This was the guy they targetted all along !!!

 

[switz]

I was under the impression that FBGs rankings are PPR.

And????? :X

 

[simey]

So HK...will bringing in the Brown stench improve the running game?

You are so negative about the new offensive coordinator. I'm excited to see the changes he is making to the offense.