Merged Spygate thread (4 Viewers)

[PatsWillWin]

Former Steelers receiver Hines Ward contended while still playing that the Patriots knew the Steelers' signals, not just during the 2004 AFC title game but also the 2001 AFC championship game that New England won 24-17 at Heinz Field.

Ward said that when the Steelers audibled to different plays, the Patriots defense shifted almost as quickly as the Steelers offense.

“Oh, they knew,” Ward said before retiring. “They were calling our stuff out. They knew, especially that first championship game here at Heinz Field. They knew a lot of our calls. There's no question some of their players were calling out some of our stuff.”

Read more: http://triblive.com/sports/steelers/5423839-74/cowher-patriots-game#ixzz3FygIuZwh

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Former player for a team consistently dominated by the Patriots says they knew their calls?

Compelling.

Look if a team keeps the same defensive signals from game to game, they're doing it wrong. I'll take the opinion of Ward's head coach over a player on the field.

 

[he_hate_me_too]

So nothing new, just a bitter Bufalo fan sorry that his team lost to NE again and decides to echo bs innuendo and rumors stirred up by a bitter NY media and Jet fans who are unhappy that their teams still blow.

Ok, got it.

NY has anothe team besides the Jets, and they like playing the Patriots.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

Happy with the three Super Bowl titles regardless.

ETA: But seriously, anyone who actually thinks "SpyGate" was something:

a) That gave a huge competitive advantage.

b) That was substantively different than what every other team was doing.

Is either ignorant about what the Patriots actually did or a hater. I totally understand people being Patriot haters, it comes with the success.

Something like this, admittedly, would be a little different. I will await further details if this thing has legs.

Q. Did they tell you (Matt Walsh) what their goals were with what you were filming?

A. Nope. They just told me to film the signals, pass the tape along to Ernie Adams. It was ... once I had done it for the first game, and I kind of understood a little bit of the process of how it was going, I actually asked one of our quarterbacks if the information that I provided was beneficial in any way. He said, “Actually, probably about 75 percent of the time, Tampa Bay ran the defense we thought they were going to run. If not more.”

See, this is a good example. You don't really know what SpyGate was about.

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

I absolutely recognize and admit that knowing what a team was going to run would be an immense advantage. This is not the same thing as saying that "SpyGate" gave the Patriots an immense advantage. I'm open to hearing how they're connected though, please describe how it worked.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

 

[jonessed]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

Happy with the three Super Bowl titles regardless.

ETA: But seriously, anyone who actually thinks "SpyGate" was something:

a) That gave a huge competitive advantage.

b) That was substantively different than what every other team was doing.

Is either ignorant about what the Patriots actually did or a hater. I totally understand people being Patriot haters, it comes with the success.

Something like this, admittedly, would be a little different. I will await further details if this thing has legs.

Something like Brady's helmet staying live past the 15 second cutoff would be a little different?

That's a big addition to the cheating that's already been uncovered.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Less than a week after the tape was confiscated, Goodell on Sept. 13 issued an emergency order compelling the Pats to fork over any other tapes. Yet before receiving any of them, he handed down his punishment: taking away the Pats’ first-round draft pick the next year, while fining the team $250,000 and Belichick — who claimed he simply misinterpreted the rulebook and never used video to gain a competitive advantage — the league maximum $500,000.

On Sept. 20, the NFL announced the Pats handed over six tapes and two days later said little about what the recordings contained — only that they had been destroyed.

“When somebody has a hit that looks suspicious, it takes the league three to four days of looking at a tape, then they ­issue a fine,” O’Leary said.

“In this case, they had a team that potentially stole three Super Bowls, and they issued a verdict in four days. Does that sound like the NFL was trying to get to the bottom of anything?”

This is the heart of it. Faced with finding out what happened when a three-time Super Bowl winning team was caught blatantly cheating in a way that would throw their wins into doubt the league buried it instead of revealing what they found. Now... why would they do that?

 

[Koya]

You know, its actually kind of sad. As much as Brady was too perfect and above reproach all the while QBing for one of the (formerly) most respected organizations in the NFL, it all ended up to be a fat, cheating lie.

Hard to now respect any of their recent rings, almost as if they are already stricken from the record of most objective NFL fans.

Of course,I admit this is an easier stance to take as I am a Giants fan that has put the patHETICS to shame twice, including eliminating a chance at a (probably not deserved through some sort of cheating) undefeated season... but y'all know what I'm saying

 

[msudaisy26]

You are joking right?

I did not pen the article, pats fan. I just posted it, but I did not post it in jest

I wasn't aiming it at you or anyone. It is a phrase, like when a Hail Mary gets caught in the end zone and you can't believe it. Don't be so defensive.

 

[cstu]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Matt Walsh recorded the defensive signals and gave them to Ernie Adams. All he would have needed to do is watch the tapes and match up the signals to the plays and he'd know every play the defense called.

Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

 

[Koya]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Your bravado rings rather hollow now that the three championships have come into (legitimate) question?

Worse yet, SINCE that time the Pats have become the Giants ##### while proving that those championships were more questionable than legit, to begin with.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Ernie Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

Do you mean in the same game they were videotaping or in ensuing games?

 

[Thunderlips]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Ernie Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

BUT HOW WOULD THAT HELP!!!????? WHAT DOES THAT MATTER!!???? WHY WOULD THAT BE IMPORTANT!!!!? atsfan4life:

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Your bravado rings rather hollow now that the three championships have come into (legitimate) question?

Worse yet, SINCE that time the Pats have become the Giants ##### while proving that those championships were more questionable than legit, to begin with.

Bravado? I'm asking him how he thought SpyGate worked. And you can keep closing your eyes and crossing your fingers, but the three Lombardi's remain just as shiny as they were when they were brought to New England.

And your second sentence is completely ridiculous, but your a Giants fan so I'll let you thump your chest. No team has earned the right to do so re: the Patriots more.

 

[cstu]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Ernie Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

Do you mean in the same game they were videotaping or in ensuing games?

Apparently teams have multiple people giving signals on any given play so it's normally difficult to steal signals. The Patriots would record games, cut them up with the correct signal/play shown for use the next time they played that team.

"The other seven tapes show the final product, which is a series of coaches' signals, followed by the play, followed by coaches' signals and then the next play -- all lined up one after another," said Levy, who represents Walsh. "So the final videotapes contain the opposing coaches' signals lined up directly with the play that was run, one after another."

 

[cstu]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

 

[John Bender]

Hate the Patriots.

But some of you guys with this utter Patriots everything obsession is just sad to watch. Please stop being more obnoxious than the awful Patriot fans. Holy god, move on with your lives.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Which is more likely: that 31 owners would allow one team to systemaically cheat to obtain a statistically impossible win loss revord or an obsessive jets fan has found an expert to support his thesis. Hint: its a 7 billion dollar brand.

 

[PatsWillWin]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Ernie Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

Do you mean in the same game they were videotaping or in ensuing games?

Apparently teams have multiple people giving signals on any given play so it's normally difficult to steal signals. The Patriots would record games, cut them up with the correct signal/play shown for use the next time they played that team.

"The other seven tapes show the final product, which is a series of coaches' signals, followed by the play, followed by coaches' signals and then the next play -- all lined up one after another," said Levy, who represents Walsh. "So the final videotapes contain the opposing coaches' signals lined up directly with the play that was run, one after another."

Okay, thank you for answering.

So in the Tampa Bay example you cite, in 2000, where the Patriots supposedly knew the defense the Buccaneers were calling "75% of the time" because of SpyGate activities.

When did the Patriots steal the signals for that game?

 

[PatsWillWin]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

For the 50th time, everyone was stealing everyone's signals. You can just ignore all of the former coaches saying as much if you want, I understand the desire to hate the Patriots.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

On a semi-related note, anyone else notice how the Seahawks suddenly look kinda of average within a month of the NFL's HGH testing policy going into effect?

 

[Chaz McNulty]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

I'd love to hear what exactly the Pats were up to . . . and the 31 other franchises as well.

Every Pats fan tries to act like its not it big deal......it is. Look how close the Superbowls were...cheating definitely helped them.

The only people that think it is a big deal are the people who legitimately believed only the Patriots were taping signals and that it is single handidly responsible for all of their franchises success. Both of which are well known to not be the case.

If you're willing to live in ignorance, and keep pretending this wasn't commonplace at the time then please - stay bitter.

I dont really care....just makes you look foolish as more and more info comes out over time. Just a big bunch of cheaters.

Yeah, it makes me look foolish, because I'm the one reading rumors and immediately giving any kind of credence to them without any actual information.

The hypocrisy in your remarks is staggering. Please look at your previous post. The Patriots were the only team proven to have cheated for taping signals. There were rumors (most likely driven by Patriot homers) of other teams also doing it. Yet you choose to give credence to these rumors but dismiss everyone as a fool for believing in other rumors.

Unbelievable.

 

[cstu]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

For the 50th time, everyone was stealing everyone's signals. You can just ignore all of the former coaches saying as much if you want, I understand the desire to hate the Patriots.

The other teams weren't breaking the rules by recording it. The Patriots systematically broke down every defensive signal and cut it up on tape.

That's fundamentally different than someone watching the game live and trying to pick up signals.

 

[Run It Up]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

I'd love to hear what exactly the Pats were up to . . . and the 31 other franchises as well.

Every Pats fan tries to act like its not it big deal......it is. Look how close the Superbowls were...cheating definitely helped them.

The only people that think it is a big deal are the people who legitimately believed only the Patriots were taping signals and that it is single handidly responsible for all of their franchises success. Both of which are well known to not be the case.

If you're willing to live in ignorance, and keep pretending this wasn't commonplace at the time then please - stay bitter.

I dont really care....just makes you look foolish as more and more info comes out over time. Just a big bunch of cheaters.

Yeah, it makes me look foolish, because I'm the one reading rumors and immediately giving any kind of credence to them without any actual information.

The hypocrisy in your remarks is staggering. Please look at your previous post. The Patriots were the only team proven to have cheated for taping signals. There were rumors (most likely driven by Patriot homers) of other teams also doing it. Yet you choose to give credence to these rumors but dismiss everyone as a fool for believing in other rumors.

Unbelievable.

What rumors? What rumors am I giving credence too? Its a fact that teams stole signals from one another. Its a fact that the only team ever punished for it has been the Patriots...

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Matt Walsh recorded the defensive signals and gave them to Ernie Adams. All he would have needed to do is watch the tapes and match up the signals to the plays and he'd know every play the defense called.

Adams could have a direct line to Brady's helmet and tell him when he saw the signal. That's all it would take to let him know the defensive play.

Ummm you know Walsh or anyone could do the same thing without electronically recording the signals.

You know it is legal to steal signals.

You know that every team knows that stealing signals is legal and the practice is easily defeated by having multiple people give signals.

You understand the concept of changing your signals so other teams can't RELY on them

You understand that if a team simply changes their signals and NE was actually doing what u r accusing them of they would have been screwed. Right?

You know the whole extra communication in Bradys helmet is a baseless rumor.

You know these things and yet you continue to troll with this crap.....

And here I am feeding you........

 

[PatsWillWin]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

For the 50th time, everyone was stealing everyone's signals. You can just ignore all of the former coaches saying as much if you want, I understand the desire to hate the Patriots.

The other teams weren't breaking the rules by recording it. The Patriots systematically broke down every defensive signal and cut it up on tape.

That's fundamentally different than someone watching the game live and trying to pick up signals.

Yes they were. But I don't want to get off track. Can you please answer my question before?

In the 2000 Bucs game where the Patriots knew "75% of the plays" that the Bucs were calling - can you tell me where they got those signals from?

 

[Koya]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

Can you explain how they knew? Like how the process actually worked in the context of a game. I'd like to know how you think it worked. How did the Patriots know 75% of the time what the Bucs were going to run?

Your bravado rings rather hollow now that the three championships have come into (legitimate) question?

Worse yet, SINCE that time the Pats have become the Giants ##### while proving that those championships were more questionable than legit, to begin with.

Bravado? I'm asking him how he thought SpyGate worked. And you can keep closing your eyes and crossing your fingers, but the three Lombardi's remain just as shiny as they were when they were brought to New England.

And your second sentence is completely ridiculous, but your a Giants fan so I'll let you thump your chest. No team has earned the right to do so re: the Patriots more.

Bravado = Taking away a chance at ultimate history by lumping the 18-1 Cheatriots with all the other almost Super Bowl winners. Forever.

Mpre Bravado = Beating the Cheatriots again a couple years later.

As a Giants fan, I couldnt care less about your three undeserved Cheatreatships. You're our Super Bowl #####.

That said, it must be comforting as a fan of one of the other 30 teams to know that those three trophies are forever questionable. At best. Or possibly, just flat out illegitimate.

Wonder if/when they'll officially be stricken from the record.

 

[Anarchy99]

IMO, the reason the Pats got fined and lost a first round draft pick in oly 4 days was that the NFL already knew what they were doing (that's pretty much well documented) and NE continued to do it after they were told to stop. Giving the league their tapes (that were destroyed) confirmed what the Pats were doing (and at that point had admitted to doing). BB argued that his interpretation of the rules should allow the team to do what they did, the league said no way, and the penalty was levied. So the bottom line is, the Pats (and every other team) were essentially given a get of jail free card for their transgressions leading up to that point and the game against Mangini's Jets proved to be the deal breaker. Had they stopped before that game, none of what they did would have been punishable.

The reason no other team got nailed for doing the same thing is they all stopped doing it as per the league memo. As outlined and rehashed in a lot of other threads and articles over the years, teams try to get away with stuff all the time. Some things break the rules, other things stretch the rules, and other things still break the spirit of the rules. To think that the Patriots were the only team that tried to get a competitive advantage that infringed on the rules is nuts. They most likely took more liberties than other teams or were the league's biggest offender. If nothing else, they were the ones that got caught. That doesn't make the other 31 franchises innocent. There are lots and lots of ways to bend or break the rules, yet the Pats are the ones that constantly get flamed for cheating.

As far as the taping defensive signals, somehow deciphering them live, and relaying them all to Brady in essential 30 seconds seems so hard to do effectively. As many people have pointed out since the story broke years ago, most teams changes signals every few games, so even trying to use signals from earlier in the season would not have been useful. Every team in the league knows someone was watching them, thus why they cover their mouths when they talk, why they run through a serious of signs, and why they change signals frequently in the first place.

I still liken the Patriots situation to taxes. Some people take every last deduction and some fabricated ones to not pay taxes. Others take a few extra bogus deductions to try to get back a few bucks. Just because the second party got audited and fined doesn't make the first party a law abiding, upstanding citizen.

 

[MSULions]

Idk about this..."as the play unfolded"?? That would mean a coach would have to call in, Brady hear and process it, THEN react...All in about 3 or 4 seconds, while at least 4 guys are gunning to take his head off. That seems pretty difficult.

No. All he'd have to say is "throw it to x" whoever x happened to be. Or even quicker just say the last name. "Smith" or whoever. The guys upstairs can see the coverages better even before the ball is snapped.

And what Flutie said was that they talked to him right up to the snap, rather than getting cut off 15 seconds into the play clock. Which means they could give him signals on how the D was moving right up to the snap of the ball - which would be pretty valuable info.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Curious logic. Two great games equates to becoming the giants SB #####. How are the careers of pierce, buress and tyree coming along? Congrats.

 

[MSULions]

Less than a week after the tape was confiscated, Goodell on Sept. 13 issued an emergency order compelling the Pats to fork over any other tapes. Yet before receiving any of them, he handed down his punishment: taking away the Pats’ first-round draft pick the next year, while fining the team $250,000 and Belichick — who claimed he simply misinterpreted the rulebook and never used video to gain a competitive advantage — the league maximum $500,000.

On Sept. 20, the NFL announced the Pats handed over six tapes and two days later said little about what the recordings contained — only that they had been destroyed.

“When somebody has a hit that looks suspicious, it takes the league three to four days of looking at a tape, then they ­issue a fine,” O’Leary said.

“In this case, they had a team that potentially stole three Super Bowls, and they issued a verdict in four days. Does that sound like the NFL was trying to get to the bottom of anything?”

This is the heart of it. Faced with finding out what happened when a three-time Super Bowl winning team was caught blatantly cheating in a way that would throw their wins into doubt the league buried it instead of revealing what they found. Now... why would they do that?

Yep. To protect their supposed integrity and their golden boy Brady. The Pats homers in this and every thread on this subject are hilarious in their willful ignorance and abject refusal to accept that their team cheated like crazy to win those titles, and the only reason they got away with it in the end is because ole Roger was mortified by the idea of having to have Championships vacated and a resulting scandal that would irreparably harm the NFL. We're talking The Black Sox & The Patroits kind of legacy.

But lets just pretend it's no big deal and they were only doing what everyone else did and sweep it under the rug. That's MUCH easier to swallow and the masses can continue to watch every Sunday in their usual ignorant bliss...especially the Pats fans. Do they really not see how unspecial they've been since they've been prevented from cheating?

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

Completely unspecial. AFCC games most every year, narrowly missing 19-0, etc. Oh wait, thats right theyre still cheating. Now im confused. Cheating still.. or completely unspecial, or....?

 

[cstu]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

For the 50th time, everyone was stealing everyone's signals. You can just ignore all of the former coaches saying as much if you want, I understand the desire to hate the Patriots.

The other teams weren't breaking the rules by recording it. The Patriots systematically broke down every defensive signal and cut it up on tape.

That's fundamentally different than someone watching the game live and trying to pick up signals.

Yes they were. But I don't want to get off track. Can you please answer my question before?

In the 2000 Bucs game where the Patriots knew "75% of the plays" that the Bucs were calling - can you tell me where they got those signals from?

From the 3rd preseason game.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Idk about this..."as the play unfolded"?? That would mean a coach would have to call in, Brady hear and process it, THEN react...All in about 3 or 4 seconds, while at least 4 guys are gunning to take his head off. That seems pretty difficult.

No. All he'd have to say is "throw it to x" whoever x happened to be. Or even quicker just say the last name. "Smith" or whoever. The guys upstairs can see the coverages better even before the ball is snapped.

And what Flutie said was that they talked to him right up to the snap, rather than getting cut off 15 seconds into the play clock. Which means they could give him signals on how the D was moving right up to the snap of the ball - which would be pretty valuable info.

And for you to have any credibility at all, all you have to do is provide a link where Flutie is quoted as saying this; can you do that?

 

[Bri]

If you dont recognize... and admit... the immense advantage a team would gain by knowing what they'd run 25% of the time, then you either dont understand pro football, are a blind pats homer, or both.

They knew 75% of the time - and that was just the first time they tried it against the Bucs in 2000.

I don't know who cstu is quoting, but the world knew timmy smith was getting the ball and exactly where he'd run it and the redskins still had an awesome superbowl.

Bill Parcells had a few running plays that he seemed to enjoy the other team knowing it's coming.

I could probably win an argument that 11 guys covering Joe Horn would be better than blitzing Aaron Brooks.

Larry Centers caught roughly 100 screen passes one year, yet I only remember one or two INTs. How is that possible?

People act like there's this magic trick NFL offenses do which totally surprises the D, yet many of us sit at home and yell at the TV what the play is.

There are film geeks that watch ten thousand plays a year and chart n graph them and try to figure out probability and all sorts of things. (With respect)If Matt Waldman said some WR had a tell that they were going deep, then what would you say?

At one point, the NFL had variations of Walsh and Parcells offense that were run by at least 60% of the teams. At another, Landry and Shula.

Why do you think Brady has 600 plays memorized and Martz had the Rams know 700?

It is very common for a team to execute well, despite the other team knowing what's coming.

Explain Barry Sanders or Jim Brown's NFL career in this context

 

[Jercules]

I really wish I could understand why people have such irrational and overwhelming hate for the Patriots.

I mean, they're "cheaters" the way a guy who breaks the speed limit is a "criminal"--they used a camera to record signals when the most the NFL allowed was a dude with a pen and paper. (The only reason that's even a problem is the NFL is worried too much technology on the sidelines will take the gamesmanship out of coaching, but never mind all that).

They're a successful football team, and unlike in other sports they don't win simply because they buy all the best players. If you can't respect that, fine, but trying to pretend they literally stole three championships and 'haven't won anything since spygate' is simply insane.

The fact that they inspire these legions of frothing conspiracy theorists is all the proof of their greatness any fan could ever need.

 

[renesauz]

Idk about this..."as the play unfolded"?? That would mean a coach would have to call in, Brady hear and process it, THEN react...All in about 3 or 4 seconds, while at least 4 guys are gunning to take his head off. That seems pretty difficult.

Really? Seems like someone could just say "left flat" and a QB could turn and look left flat in, oh, I don't know, half a second? Or "Deep right".

Sorry, but having someone alert a QB to the open reciever like that would be an ENORMOUS advantage. So big an advantage in fact, that I don't find this very credible.

 

[Alonzo Mosely]

Walsh was also stealing offensive signals:

Perhaps the surprise entry on the list of videotaping documents Walsh turned over to the league was tape No. 3, labeled "OFF Signals" from New England's game against the Miami Dolphins on Oct. 7, 2001. That is the only tape labeled as such on a copy of the list obtained by ESPN.com. Walsh's attorney, Michael Levy, confirmed it was the lone footage in Walsh's possession of offensive coaches' signaling from the sidelines.

Didn't teams stop sending offensive signals in the mid 80s?

 

[Alonzo Mosely]

On a semi-related note, anyone else notice how the Seahawks suddenly look kinda of average within a month of the NFL's HGH testing policy going into effect?

Who knew cutting your usage by 29% would have this effect?

 

[White Lightning]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

I'd love to hear what really happened, cause to date through all the smoke and bull#### all I've seen is that the Pats we're doing something literally everyone was doing and the only reason they got cracked down on so hard wasn't because they kept doing it - cause everyone did. It was because the commissioner told them specifically to stop and the Pats tried to angleshoot the situation by doing something that was essentially the same thing but not explicitly what they were told to stop and the commissioner took it personally.

Everything else is just butthurt fans.

What evidence or allegations are there that "everyone" was doing this?

 

[Alonzo Mosely]

Lol. Get over it.

Is there a single Patriots fan who wants to know the truth or are you just happy with your three Super Bowl titles regardless?

I'd love to hear what really happened, cause to date through all the smoke and bull#### all I've seen is that the Pats we're doing something literally everyone was doing and the only reason they got cracked down on so hard wasn't because they kept doing it - cause everyone did. It was because the commissioner told them specifically to stop and the Pats tried to angleshoot the situation by doing something that was essentially the same thing but not explicitly what they were told to stop and the commissioner took it personally.

Everything else is just butthurt fans.

What evidence or allegations are there that "everyone" was doing this?

Pretty much every coach you ask. Other than that none at all.

 

[pecorino]

Jercules: some of us became Patriots haters because of insufferable Pats fans whose hubris seems to have no limits. Just look around this thread. We can't even have a mature debate about a serious claim.

 

[Sabertooth]

Bunch of hacks. I think they should just vacate the titles. Most people have in their minds already anyway.

 

[ratbast]

Blah blah blah

 

[Sabertooth]

Gutless bunch of cheats. You can have your "championships" but everyone knows they are most likely a sham. Enjoy that. Savor that. Win three more and you'll be just under half of what Green Bay has. That's pretty good.

 

[Neofight]

Stick to analyzing actual football gentlemen. As conspiracy theorists, this stuff is amateur.

 

[Koya]

Curious logic. Two great games equates to becoming the giants SB #####. How are the careers of pierce, buress and tyree coming along? Congrats.

Not sure how their careers may be, but they'll always be remembered as part of the great team that prevented a perfect season and then reminded NE who their daddy is a couple years later.

And yes, beating NE and their cheating ways twice in the SuperBowl, eliminating NE from having an immortal season does make NE the Giants #####.

 

[Koya]

Completely unspecial. AFCC games most every year, narrowly missing 19-0, etc. Oh wait, thats right theyre still cheating. Now im confused. Cheating still.. or completely unspecial, or....?

Narrowly missing 19-0 is the same as missing it by a big margin. Can't get that one back.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

They are this butthurt.

Considering how close those Super Bowl wins were there should be a question of how much cheating played a part in the wins.

After what the Rams did to the Steelers and Eagles (both top 5) defenses in the previous games it didn't make sense what happened to them against the Patriots.

Faulk can't understand it either:

“I understand Bill is a great coach,” Faulk said. “But No. 13 [Kurt Warner] will tell you. Mike Martz will tell you. We had some plays in the red zone that we hadn’t ran. . . . And a couple of plays on third down that we walked through also . . . And they created a check for it. It’s just little things like that. It’s either the best coaching in the world when you come up with situations that you had never seen before. Or you’d seen it and knew what to do.”

Even Warner, who gives the Pats players credit for how they played, still has doubts about whether cheating made the difference in the game:

“I don't look at it as tainted at all—that's not the perspective that I choose to take,” Warner told 411mania’s Al Norton. “But with that being said, I will say that I don't know how you can't wonder, how you can't wonder if something did happen, if there was an advantage. I simply say that because to know that there was evidence out there, that there were tapes out there, but no one ever got to see the tapes—the commissioner or whoever decided they were going to destroy them from what I understand—and so it continually leaves the question.”

“The Patriots beat us in that game—they outplayed us, they deserved to win—but it's hard to just let it go by saying, ‘Oh, I don't know if anything happened.’ I still have a question on what exactly when down in that whole time period; did they get some kind of advantage? Maybe it wasn't in our game, but did they get some kind of advantage in any game?

What Specter learned from the one-hour, 40-minute sitdown in February 2008 was that the Pats had been spying on opposing teams for nearly a decade, ever since Belichick’s first year as head coach of the Pats.

“There was confirmation that there has been taping since 2000, when Coach Belichick took over,” said Specter, who called for an independent probe similar to a Mitchell Report on performance-enhancing drugs in baseball. It never materialized.

“I found a lot of questions unanswerable because the tapes and notes had been destroyed,” said the late Pennsylvania lawmaker. “We have a right to have honest football games.”

On Sept. 20, the NFL announced the Pats handed over six tapes and two days later said little about what the recordings contained — only that they had been destroyed.

Just 6 tapes.

Hardly the whole inventory, I'm guessing.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

People don't keep secrets, it takes a lot of people to pull something like this off for just one year let alone many years. Someone would have sold this story long ago to TMZ or someone and cashed in.

IF it did happen and it is a big if, there would be an advantage to to talking after the 15 seconds were up, but as the play develops? You are joking right? So they snap the ball and Brady is drops back and is looking for an open receiver and he has one of his coaches in his ear telling him which way to look or watch out for that late blitzer on the right. Quarterbacks get about 2 to 4 seconds to make up their mind where they are going with the ball, a coach yelling into your helmet would do a lot more damage than good.

Someone did:

Walsh did not return The Post’s call for comment, but in 2008 he told “Real Sports With Bryant Gumbel” that the team’s intent was clear. “Coach Belichick’s explanation for having misinterpreted the rules, to me, that really didn’t sound like taking responsibility for what we had done, especially considering the great lengths that we had gone through to hide what we were doing.”

Walsh was the one caught doing the taping.

Now, it's true that they haven't won a SB since this went down, but then again they have kept right on winning division crowns and some playoff games. They were also caught and forced to stop in 2007 and they went 18-1 that year.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Saw the article earlier today.

If its REALLY true, then I have no issue discrediting the cheationships.

If I was a fan of the team, while having the championships taken away retroactively would suck - they still got to live through them and enjoy them while they were occurring so it wouldn't be THAT big of a deal.

So would Philly be considered a Super Bowl Champion if it happened? Not that I think it will.