Ramblin Wreck
Footballguy
You could pick the best QB in the history of the world and put him back there tonight and the result does not change. Seattle dominated the LOS.
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MERGED thread to talk about Peyton's performance in the Super Bowl (1 Viewer)
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fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
skol asylum
Footballguy
G
General Tso
Guest
You know, Joe Montana never had a to face a defense like Seattle in the Superbowl. Sometimes it's just about being in the right place at the right time. I don't think anyone could have beaten Seattle tonight.
The thing I am worried about with Manning is something I hadn't seen all season - the happy feet and the jitters. The guy needs to be protected. I seriously question whether he should retire at this point. He's had 4 neck surgeries. I'd be jittery too.
The thing I am worried about with Manning is something I hadn't seen all season - the happy feet and the jitters. The guy needs to be protected. I seriously question whether he should retire at this point. He's had 4 neck surgeries. I'd be jittery too.
Andrew74
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Okay, so then what props do you give Manning for getting to the Super Bowl with the M*A*S*H unit that was the Denver Broncos?
Riversco
Footballguy
Peyton Manning has a weak arm. Today it seemed like Seattle dared him to beat them deep and he could not. They played up on all the short, intermediate, and crossing routes and disrupted those instead, generating picks. It looked almost like Manning didn't even have a legit NFL arm today. Even down big in the second half, Manning was unable to wing it deep like he needed to. Just more short dump offs.
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Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I must have missed the part where Manning's best skill players missed almost the entire season.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Simple question:
If you put the "greatest QB of all time" (whoever you think that is) in place of Peyton tonight, would the result have been different?
I'd vote yes with Thomas, Decker, Welker, & Thomas.
If you put the "greatest QB of all time" (whoever you think that is) in place of Peyton tonight, would the result have been different?
I'd vote yes with Thomas, Decker, Welker, & Thomas.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Not as much as skill players, particularly in a subpar conference like this year's AFC
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Denver had far more injuries on defense than offense. NE had massive holes on BOTH offense and defense. In the AFCC game, Manning had all his skill position players healthy. Brady had one guy (Edelman).
Manning gets credit for winning against NE, but it's not like it was a fair fight in terms of offensive weapons that were available. I realize that you have to play the guys that suit up, but like I said at the time in other threads, DThomas, Decker, Welker, JThomas, and Moreno were a) healthy and b) all better weapons than anyone that NE had playing offensively in that game. Manning SHOULD have destroyed Brady production wise and DEN should have won that game pretty handily. There was pretty much very little chance for Brady to come out of that game with his stock rising compared to Manning.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Different in what way? A win for Denver? Or a closer score?
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Def not 43-8... Maybe a win, but def a closer more contested game.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
I have posted a half dozen times since then. Was there something specific you wanted as an answer?
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
This is speculation mostly, but I get the impression Manning isn't much of a leader. He's a great leader in-so-far as he sets an example by being disciplined and executing properly, but I don't think he inspires anyone the way great leaders are supposed to--off the field, I'd bet the only Bronco he spends time with is John Elway.
We've seen little examples of it over the years: Reggie Wayne pushing him during a sideline huddle, him and Jeff Saturday going at it after a failed drive, his 'we had protections problems' public refrain following a playoff loss to Pittsburgh, etc.
He came into the league with a huge pedigree, and has basically been NFL royalty ever since--obviously he commands respect, but I wonder if teammates really want to win for him. He carries himself as though he's above the team, and when things get tough and someone needs to rally the troops, he can't do it. That's the best explanation I can think of for his playoff failures.
Contrast that with Brady: Yeah, he's a star and all that, but the guy still admits in a post game interview that he 'sucked pretty bad' in an AFCCG that the Patriots won in part because, 4th and goal from the one, and the team had to have a TD, Brady puts it in like a man (taking a vicious hit from Ray Lewis in the process). As tough as he is on his teammates, he's still a part of the team and not above it the way Manning always seems to be.
We've seen little examples of it over the years: Reggie Wayne pushing him during a sideline huddle, him and Jeff Saturday going at it after a failed drive, his 'we had protections problems' public refrain following a playoff loss to Pittsburgh, etc.
He came into the league with a huge pedigree, and has basically been NFL royalty ever since--obviously he commands respect, but I wonder if teammates really want to win for him. He carries himself as though he's above the team, and when things get tough and someone needs to rally the troops, he can't do it. That's the best explanation I can think of for his playoff failures.
Contrast that with Brady: Yeah, he's a star and all that, but the guy still admits in a post game interview that he 'sucked pretty bad' in an AFCCG that the Patriots won in part because, 4th and goal from the one, and the team had to have a TD, Brady puts it in like a man (taking a vicious hit from Ray Lewis in the process). As tough as he is on his teammates, he's still a part of the team and not above it the way Manning always seems to be.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Put a mobile qb back there, who knows. Manning certainly wasn't the right guy to catch that air ball. His two interceptions, lost fumble, and two turnovers on downs when he failed to convert 4th and 2s weren't great, either. Leading the broncos to a grand total of one score wasn't good at all. He didn't make great plays, he did make bad plays, and he didn't make any of the plays people expected of him. It was a bad game all around.
ILUVBEER99
Footballguy
even god himself wouldn't have been able to beat Seattle's defense tonight.
Smack Tripper
Footballguy
Mentally soft. No other explanation. Brutal loss for his legacy tonight.
But lets be clear, Tom Brady is not a top tier guy yet... he's in the Manning tier. He was a passenger for the 1st bowl and they haven't won one since Spygate which clouds his legacy.
But lets be clear, Tom Brady is not a top tier guy yet... he's in the Manning tier. He was a passenger for the 1st bowl and they haven't won one since Spygate which clouds his legacy.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I agree with others that once the Seahawks started taking DEN to the woodshed it would have been tough for any team or QB to come back.Put a mobile qb back there, who knows. Manning certainly wasn't the right guy to catch that air ball. His two interceptions, lost fumble, and two turnovers on downs when he failed to convert 4th and 2s weren't great, either. Leading the broncos to a grand total of one score wasn't good at all. He didn't make great plays, he did make bad plays, and he didn't make any of the plays people expected of him. It was a bad game all around.
But after the safety and the DEN defense only giving up a FG (or even two FG), the entire game could have changed if Peyton had mounted a TD scoring drive on either of the possessions when the score was 5-0 or 8-0. The Broncos could have been outplayed and losing the time of possession battle but right back in the thick of things on the scoreboard.
To be fair, I said the same thing about Brady and the Pats when they played in DEN and the offense stalled out of the gate and could not do anything. Brady needed to hit Edelman on that deep route for a TD but didn't and that was a huge play that started putting nails in the proverbial coffin.
Both guys needed to rally the troops to get an early scoring drive and will the team down the field. Give credit to the defenses and coaches, but that set the wrong tone for the entire game in both games.
fantasycurse42
Footballguy Jr.
Everyone keeps saying Seattle was unbeatable...
If Manning didnt look like Andy Dalton, maybe it would've been a much tighter game.
He looked really bad.
Blame the OL, game plan, or whatever you want, but there is no denying how terrible Peyton played. It was painful to watch.
If Manning didnt look like Andy Dalton, maybe it would've been a much tighter game.
He looked really bad.
Blame the OL, game plan, or whatever you want, but there is no denying how terrible Peyton played. It was painful to watch.
I am quite certain that one of the following is true, although I'm not sure which one:
1. Brady's and Manning's stock both dropped, but Brady's dropped more.
2. Manning's and Brady's stock both rose, but Manning's rose more.
3. Manning's stock rose while Brady's stock dropped.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Not as much when you're discussing mannings individual performance in a game where he had all of the weapons that helped him set nfl records, but he had three turnovers and two more on downs and led them to a grand total of one score all game.
I agree with your LOS comment, but couldn't disagree more with any QB. Collin K had them beat two weeks ago, were it not for some bonehead plays.
Watching the Broncos as I have, I have come to a few conclusions;
1) Manning needs a 'perfect' environment to win. This doesn't mean weather, it means a quiet crowd when he's on offense and a nice pocket to pass from.
2) If both of the above conditions are not met, he fails.
3) He makes poor passing decisions more than I thought he did when he was a Colt. MANY times, he depends on WR's in double coverage (which is okay ON OCCASION), and throws passes he shouldn't.
4) Arm strength is not great.
The whole team fell flat tonight, but the failure was led by PFM and the offense. 4 turnovers is inexcusable.
Seattle played a hell of a game, but we really saw the SB two weeks ago when SF and Seattle went at it in the NFC championship game.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I have always argued that getting to a SB is an accomplishment even if you lose. 30 QBs can't say they made it to a SB in each season. So Manning should get credit for falling a game short no matter what the score.
I would probably say the net outcome is Peyton's stock went up 2 points for beating Brady straight up in the AFCC and Brady's stock remained unchanged. But after the drubbing DEN had in the SB, Manning may have lost those 2 points in his stock value (whether that should be the perception or not).
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That might all be true, but all I am saying is, let's not act like the Broncos were out there tonight fielding a completely healthy team. Hell, even if they were, it might not have mattered given the buzzsaw they ran into, but injuries to stud defensive players and All-Pro lineman do matter.
That aside, the Broncos played terrible in almost all phases tonight. The sad thing is, the defense actually came ready to stop Marshawn Lynch, and did a good job of it, but everywhere else was such a disaster, that it didn't matter.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
This is where the Brady/Manning comparison gets more interesting. Brady missed two passes that probably cost NE 10 points but otherwise played a decent game in the AFCC game. But NE played a clean game and had no turnovers. While Brady didn't look great, he was far from terrible. Yet watching that game it was clear to me that there was no way NE was going to win that game (much like SEA was going to drub DEN).
In the SB, as you said, systemically across the board DEN did not play well (offense, defense, special teams, and coaching). But as been outlined already, Manning had a hand in multiple turnovers and also on turnovers on downs. As I see it, Manning had a much greater role in playing poorly and contributing to the DEN loss than Brady did in NE's loss to DEN.
Bottom line is neither QB won the SB, all the rest is mostly window dressing.
fatmnkypants
Footballguy
Actually the Denver team Montana lit up in the Super Bowl was the #1 defense in the league, and that was an era where defenses had tons more options to disrupt the qb and offense. The windows manning sees because of the new pass friendly rules are gaping compared to what Montana dealt with. Maybe Denver's 1 defense wasn't AS good as seattles, but it wasn't that much of a difference that Montana could literly play a perfect game vs what manning did.
Like you said though, manning was jittery, dancing even with time, and his arm strength looked terrible. I think much if that was his carreer long issue of freezing up and playing tight when under mental strain form a big game or when pressured, but also the signs are there of physical decline. It's hard to say about someone who just put up historic numbers, but it seems like man in is heading down the slope. Still an all time great though.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Watching him with an objective eye, Peyton's accuracy on throws downfield isn't what it used to be, and he obviously struggles when you get pressure on him and/or his receivers aren't open all day. Really, it makes what he did this year even more impressive when you consider that he basically has to manipulate defenses to be able to get his guys constantly open to be able to get the ball to them. Basically, he beats teams with his brain now, since he can't beat them with his arm as much as he used to be able to. You rarely see him complete those passes more than 10 yards downfield to guys who are well covered to where he has to fit it into a tight window. He can do it on the shorter throws, but not the longer ones as much. And as he keeps getting older, that is just gonna get even more difficult.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Well, yeah, his receivers definitely get credit for getting open. While much of it is Peyton's manipulation of defenses that allow them to get open, they obviously can get open on their own a lot, too. But congrats on missing the point.
ffldrew
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
ffldrew
Footballguy
Manning is an all time great but I've always thought that taking what the defense gives and moving the sticks(what Brady usually does)is much greater than finding the one on one or exploiting the bad matchup(what manning usually does).
My hate for Brady is unmatched but he almost always takes what is given to him and it gets him the first down. Manning always wants to find that flaw, even if it means throwing the low percentage deep/risky pass, when a WR might be open on an underneath with the chance to make a move or break a tackle. Manning wants to prove he found the crack in the defense and air it out, when simply completing the 3 yard pass on 2&5 will do just fine.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I actually think it's the opposite sometimes. I often feel like he calls a high percentage play to pick up yards/low percentage to pick up a 1st down. For example, trailing 29-0 tonight, they had 3rd and 10 from the Seattle 40, and they ran a draw. I was like, you've gotta to be kidding. It's plays like that, where Manning probably saw something that made him think they could pick up some yards and get to a manageable 4th down, that occasionally drive me nuts. Just because they are playing you to pass doesn't mean you have to then run the ball.
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Spartans Rule
Footballguy
The NFC was significantly stronger than the AFC in Montana's day, and he had his share of awful playoff performances against top defenses. From 1985-87 he had 3 straight poor showings and quick exits from the postseason - 2 against the Giants, 1 against the Vikings.
Overall I'd probably still rate Montana as the best QB ever. But no QB, no matter how great, is immune to what happened to Manning and the Broncos tonight. Sometimes your team just gets whipped. That's football.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
