fred_1_15301
Footballguy
I think you could make a pretty strong case with this list. Actually it's really just a testament to how bad the QBs in the NFL really are.
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Mike Vick is better than "X" number of starting QBs (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter LHUCKS
- Start date
thehornet
Footballguy
I'm not saying he is good or great.....I am saying we dont know. 2 plays, 3 plays, 15 plays, whatever...over the course of 9 weeks is peanuts. You guys are saying he sucks without him even running an offense for an entire game.Why are you taking his years with Atlanta as a reference? The poll is asking for how many QBs he's better than RIGHT NOW. Do you think it's possible that he may have regressed as an NFL QB since prison? He has played enough in Philly to understand that he's lost a step. I'm not saying he won't get that step back at some point in the future. Anyways, this is like beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree I guess........6 PA's attempts and 12 rushing CANNOT be used as a gauge for future performance. I'll take his years with Atlanta as reference. You can use ALL of his playing time in Philly as an indicator.So now he's only run 2 plays..........Even scouts can't determine those types of things based on two plays out of a player. How do you do it?
. It's obvious you haven't actually watched the guy play this year. He is absolutely not the explosive player that he was prior to prison. I don't need to be a scout to see this..........it's very obvious watching him play.
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thehornet
Footballguy
Exactly. My point in Post 40 . There are some awful starting Qb's in this league right now.
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
I don't think he should be in the NFL, and I don't want him on 'my' team, but yeah, he'd win more games than Edwards.LHUCKS said:
That's true...but it's just as true that a ton of people are saying he's better then 8, 10, or more QB's when he hasn't played a whole game...which is even more ridiculous considering how poorly Vick has played in his (albeit limited) appearances. And I'm not talking about his passing, but his speed and quickness...HIS RUNNING.If Vick were a normal QB, a normal pocket passer, then there would be plenty of good reasons to assume he'll get back to his Atlanta performance levels.......BUT HE'S NOT A NORMAL POCKET PASSER. His game was predicated on his unprecedented running ability.I'm not saying he is good or great.....I am saying we dont know. You guys are saying he sucks without him even running an offense for an entire game.Why are you taking his years with Atlanta as a reference? The poll is asking for how many QBs he's better than RIGHT NOW. Do you think it's possible that he may have regressed as an NFL QB since prison? He has played enough in Philly to understand that he's lost a step. I'm not saying he won't get that step back at some point in the future. Anyways, this is like beating a dead horse. Agree to disagree I guess........6 PA's attempts and 12 rushing CANNOT be used as a gauge for future performance. I'll take his years with Atlanta as reference. You can use ALL of his playing time in Philly as an indicator.So now he's only run 2 plays..........Even scouts can't determine those types of things based on two plays out of a player. How do you do it?
. It's obvious you haven't actually watched the guy play this year. He is absolutely not the explosive player that he was prior to prison. I don't need to be a scout to see this..........it's very obvious watching him play.
RB's go downhill quickly around age 30. What on earth makes anyone believe Vick would be the exception at his age now?
If you want to use Atlanta as a gaueg to Vick's current abilities...you have to THROW OUT HIS RUSHING NUMBERS. When you do that....you find a bottom ten passer THEN, let alone now.
Given another 6 months to work out, it'as certainly conceiveable that Vick could be enough of a runner and enough of a passer to be better then 8-10 people on this list, but the evidance to this point would indicate the opposite....and as of RIGHT NOW (as the poll asks).....only Oakland (Russel is unbelieveably horrible) and Cleveland (Vick is certainly more explosive then Quinn, and just as accurate as the other tool) make my list. A strong argument could be made for one or two other teams (Carolina)...but better then Henne, Stafford, Smith, etc......
You have no reasonable basis for that argument.
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
thehornet said:
One thing that is sure about Vick is the defenses do have to worry about him. I am also of the belief that he tires out Dlineman. He is also a threat to throw deep which keeps the defenses honest. is he accurate, no, not very strong there at all, but kind of like a very fast player who can't catch very well, you had to defend for the times that they do catch the ball. I think one of the reasons the Falcons had the best running team was Vick and I don't only mean the yards he added to the equation. I said this before he went to jail and that was I would have Vick as my QB, but I would have another QB and rotate them based on the situation. I was told "that is the stupidest thing I ever heard of." I was told the same thing when I made the comment that the Dolphins should substitute in henne on 3rd and long (or any stronger armed QB) so that they had a better chance of converting. Miami was one of the worst teams at 3rd and long and that is because Pennington just won't throw the ball downfield and also has trouble doing so. Well, teams are using the WC now and it doesn't seem to be throwing off the QB's very much. Much like a 3rd down back, why not use players at their strengths? qb's are no different.
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The fact is, if he stepped onto the field now it's probably 0 since he hasn't played in 2 years.. But given the offseason to work with a team, I think it's the following.
Trent Edwards
Jake Delhomme
Derek Anderson
David Garrard
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Hasselbeck
Alex Smith
Vince Young
Jason Campbell
Trent Edwards
Jake Delhomme
Derek Anderson
David Garrard
JaMarcus Russell
Matt Hasselbeck
Alex Smith
Vince Young
Jason Campbell
Jeremy
Footballguy
Russell (most seem to agree there). Maybe Anderson.
If I thought he would be as good now as he was before his incarceration, I'd add several more to that list. But he's going to have to work at it a while before he regains his old form, if he ever does, IMO.
Wish he'd have gone to the UFL. That would be been interesting.
If I thought he would be as good now as he was before his incarceration, I'd add several more to that list. But he's going to have to work at it a while before he regains his old form, if he ever does, IMO.
Wish he'd have gone to the UFL. That would be been interesting.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
He hasn't thrown a touchdown pass since 2006, and has looked much slower in his limited play this year than he used to, so I am gonna say 0.
Phurfur
Footballguy
Vick cannot step in and run a conventional offense. The offense has to be designed around him. HTH
Dancing Bear
Footballguy
ZERO.
He looks lost, out-of-sync, slow and just plain awful in Philadelphia.
He was an exciting player to watch in Atlanta, because he had the potential to take it to pay-dirt on any given play. But he was never an effective, passing QB.
He will not make up the ground he has lost from his absence and age, and he is not better than any of today's 32 starters. Furthermore he will not play as the starting QB anywhere next year or any year after.
He looks lost, out-of-sync, slow and just plain awful in Philadelphia.
He was an exciting player to watch in Atlanta, because he had the potential to take it to pay-dirt on any given play. But he was never an effective, passing QB.
He will not make up the ground he has lost from his absence and age, and he is not better than any of today's 32 starters. Furthermore he will not play as the starting QB anywhere next year or any year after.
I'm not the biggest fan of Captain Checkdown, but there's no way in hell Vick would be a better starting option.Vick could barely throw a decent pass even in his prime... let alone now.
-fish-
Footballguy
fantasysharkctb
Footballguy
1, Russell.
Haven't seen him use his legs/look like he did on the falcons
Haven't seen him use his legs/look like he did on the falcons
wiersface
Footballguy
Dude he sucks balls you just gotta let it go he was substanial before because of his mobility but he was always a terrible passer and the incarceration didnt help his mobility and it definitely didnt help his passing game its over he's filth puke garbageSure he's played 3 plays all year. I guess that's "playing"We'll see if he still sucks if he gets a starting gig.How do you have stats if you don't play???????????????????????????????????The guys sucks so get over him!What are you talking about? He doesnt play, so why are you bringing up stats tat have no meaning.To Date Vick is 2/6 for 6Yds Passing and 12/27Yds Rushing on the season .... there really are very few "dog's" any worse than that in any league, let alone the NFL ... I'm sure Philly are happy with their $1.5 Million investment.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
I'll take the over
First...if these are your only option you're likely screwed anyway. If you've got a veteran squad that could cnotend, you could make an argument for Vick...but if these are your options chances are you don't.Since Tebow is a much younger RUNNING QB with unknown upside...he's the choice for most teams.
Jeremy
Footballguy
I've heard that if you spend 5 minutes with Tim Teebow, your life is better for it. That alone gives him the nod.
DoubleG
Footballguy
What if the number was 8?
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Over...he's going to get a chance to start again, likely next year.
Jewell
Footballguy
Seriously?
DoubleG
Footballguy
See, if I were a betting man, I'd think the number would be just about 8. I agree that he will get a chance to start next year - I'm just not convinced he'll be good enough at his age with his skillset (or lack thereof for a QB) to hold the starting gig an entire season. I think any team that pays him, will have paid him enough to give him "up until the bye week" - or about halfway through the season if they have an early bye - but not so much that they "have to" stick with him if he is playing poorly.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
And I guess I find it hard to believe a player in his 20s is over the hill to the point he'd be yanked by midseason.
Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub
Footballguy
CrossEyed said:
Bright side, at least he's in the NFL. Down side, another lost year in his NFL career.Hard telling at this point. He's definitely lost a bit of athleticism. He could end up anywhere from a 30 year old Daunte Culpepper to Steve Young. I think he'll be in the mix to start somewhere next year. And much like Daunte, he'll be considered a stopgap option.gnarboots11
Footballguy
I vote 0 cause he sucks and I would rather start Russel overhim. There is no upside in Vick.
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
How do you know what he is right now? He's looked no better than the guy that comes in for Miami for their wildcat version. I know he's not as good as he once was, I'm just not sure how much his skills have declined and I don't think anyone in here knows that answer. They may want to act like they do, but they don't. I do know from what I've seen, if Mike Vick ran the Philly offense full time right now, it would be an ugly, ugly sight.thehornet said:
Iwannabeacowboybaby!
Footballguy
There is no down side, he's going to make millions of dollars over the next few years. A very low percentage of people who come out of prison go on to make millions of dollars when they get out.He doesn't want to be a "wildcat" QB because he knows where the money is at. Nobody is going to pay him big money to be this specialized Wildcat guy. Not compared to the kind of money he would initially make as a starting QB. He will be a monumental bust if someone signs him for big money and plan on making him their starting Qb.CrossEyed said:Bright side, at least he's in the NFL. Down side, another lost year in his NFL career.Hard telling at this point. He's definitely lost a bit of athleticism. He could end up anywhere from a 30 year old Daunte Culpepper to Steve Young. I think he'll be in the mix to start somewhere next year. And much like Daunte, he'll be considered a stopgap option.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
He was a very, very good, exciting, seat-filling, ratings-drawing, and, yes, winning quarterback.
Was.
Let's face it no one know what he is now until he gets a full training camp and preseason in.
And even if by next year he is the old Vick, the 1000 yard rushing Vick, a team would have to totally revamp their offense around him. When he was the no. 1 overall draft pick in the NFL that was almost a priority, the Falcons had to do that.
But really what was Vick's record in 4th quarter comebacks? Does anyone have that, because the way i recall it if a team went up on Vick he had a pretty tough time bringing his teams back.
And does anyone remember back when Roddy White - Roddy White - couldn't "catch"? Remember that? Neither could Michael Jenkins or Laurent Robinson supposedly.
Well, they can catch now.
How do you think that's going to play with a team's WR's when the GM announces "Hey guess what guys we're gonna have a new offense next year and you'll have 30 fewer catches!"
It wouldn't surprise me if Vick lands on a roster, ends up 2nd string, and then IF he lands somewhere like a Cleveland and things are going to pot the coaching staff realizes that Vick can single handedly keep them competitive and they end up plugging him in. I mean if the Browns are playing DA over Quinn then they might as well play a Vick over a DA. A team like the Raiders on the other hand keeps all QB competition from their prescious Russell so he never gets overtaken in the first place. It's not just a question of who's better or who's best, it's just that Vick is no longer the future for anyone, he's more or less Bobby Douglass right now, a far superior QB than him right now but more or less in the same place anyway - a specialty player who may or may not become a starter and get relied upon if things get bad.
Was.
Let's face it no one know what he is now until he gets a full training camp and preseason in.
And even if by next year he is the old Vick, the 1000 yard rushing Vick, a team would have to totally revamp their offense around him. When he was the no. 1 overall draft pick in the NFL that was almost a priority, the Falcons had to do that.
But really what was Vick's record in 4th quarter comebacks? Does anyone have that, because the way i recall it if a team went up on Vick he had a pretty tough time bringing his teams back.
And does anyone remember back when Roddy White - Roddy White - couldn't "catch"? Remember that? Neither could Michael Jenkins or Laurent Robinson supposedly.
Well, they can catch now.
How do you think that's going to play with a team's WR's when the GM announces "Hey guess what guys we're gonna have a new offense next year and you'll have 30 fewer catches!"
It wouldn't surprise me if Vick lands on a roster, ends up 2nd string, and then IF he lands somewhere like a Cleveland and things are going to pot the coaching staff realizes that Vick can single handedly keep them competitive and they end up plugging him in. I mean if the Browns are playing DA over Quinn then they might as well play a Vick over a DA. A team like the Raiders on the other hand keeps all QB competition from their prescious Russell so he never gets overtaken in the first place. It's not just a question of who's better or who's best, it's just that Vick is no longer the future for anyone, he's more or less Bobby Douglass right now, a far superior QB than him right now but more or less in the same place anyway - a specialty player who may or may not become a starter and get relied upon if things get bad.
Wilbur Wood
Footballguy
The correct answer is a pretty low number. Perhaps 2. Meaning if he were on the roster at either Cleveland or Oakland one could make the case that Vick should get the start.
Going into 2010 he will have effectively been out of football for 3 years. 2009 has been a wasted season. He looks slower and with less quickness, ingredients that usually don't simply "come back" unlike "timing" and "accuracy".
Best case scenario he has a new NFL home in 2010 at which he will be able to "compete" for a starting job. That mean's that he would have to beat out someone like Trent Edwards
Going into 2010 he will have effectively been out of football for 3 years. 2009 has been a wasted season. He looks slower and with less quickness, ingredients that usually don't simply "come back" unlike "timing" and "accuracy".
Best case scenario he has a new NFL home in 2010 at which he will be able to "compete" for a starting job. That mean's that he would have to beat out someone like Trent Edwards
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I have another question:
If Miami rebuilt their team around Pat White would they be any worse or better than the Falcons were under Mike Vick?
Is Mike Vick even better than Pat White at this point?
If Miami rebuilt their team around Pat White would they be any worse or better than the Falcons were under Mike Vick?
Is Mike Vick even better than Pat White at this point?
PatrickT
Footballguy
I said 5, you could make a case for 8-10 probably.
I watched a lot of Vick, obviously, and I think a lot of people have this impression of Vick as a bad passer because he was badly miscast in a west coast offense. One of his best statistical years came before Mora/Knapp, under Reeves, who ran the ball to set up the deep throw. In that year, his first year as a starter, he went:
Those are pretty decent 1st year starter numbers. Then he got hurt, Reeves got fired, and they brought in Mora/Knapp and tried to turn him into Steve Young, which he's not. Put him in a non-west coast offense, where he can throw the ball down field and has a strong running game, and he could do ok, if he hasn't completely lost it after his time out of the league.
I watched a lot of Vick, obviously, and I think a lot of people have this impression of Vick as a bad passer because he was badly miscast in a west coast offense. One of his best statistical years came before Mora/Knapp, under Reeves, who ran the ball to set up the deep throw. In that year, his first year as a starter, he went:
Code:
G GS Comp Att Pct Yds Avg TD Int Sck SckY Rate Att Yds Avg TD FUM Lost
15 15 231 421 54.9 2,936 7.0 16 8 33 206 81.6 113 777 6.9 8 9 6Phurfur
Footballguy
A very low percentage of people who go to prison made millions of dollars legally before they went in. So what is your point?Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:There is no down side, he's going to make millions of dollars over the next few years. A very low percentage of people who come out of prison go on to make millions of dollars when they get out.He doesn't want to be a "wildcat" QB because he knows where the money is at. Nobody is going to pay him big money to be this specialized Wildcat guy. Not compared to the kind of money he would initially make as a starting QB. He will be a monumental bust if someone signs him for big money and plan on making him their starting Qb.Sudoku_in_the_Bathtub said:CrossEyed said:Bright side, at least he's in the NFL.
Down side, another lost year in his NFL career.
Hard telling at this point. He's definitely lost a bit of athleticism. He could end up anywhere from a 30 year old Daunte Culpepper to Steve Young. I think he'll be in the mix to start somewhere next year. And much like Daunte, he'll be considered a stopgap option.
Jamarcus Russell
candymanvandyfan
Footballguy
Among active players, only 4 quarterbacks younger than Vick have as many career completions:
Cutler (26)
Rivers (28)
Roethlisberger (27)
E. Manning (28)
He is only 2 career passer rating points lower than Eli Manning at 75.6.
He has never thrown for 3,000 yards in a season. His yards per attempt aren't very good.
I think he could do the trick to get a bad team to be close to .500, but I don't think he can take a good team and get them to the Super Bowl.
There are some other backups in the league I would target before I would target Vick, to include Seneca Wallace, who gets no pub.
Cutler (26)
Rivers (28)
Roethlisberger (27)
E. Manning (28)
He is only 2 career passer rating points lower than Eli Manning at 75.6.
He has never thrown for 3,000 yards in a season. His yards per attempt aren't very good.
I think he could do the trick to get a bad team to be close to .500, but I don't think he can take a good team and get them to the Super Bowl.
There are some other backups in the league I would target before I would target Vick, to include Seneca Wallace, who gets no pub.
switz
Footballguy
The bolded guys are better than Vick is right now. The margin may not be great, but they are definitely better.
LHUCKS
Footballguy
Trent Dilfer took the Ravens to the SB...just sayin
candymanvandyfan
Footballguy
No, the Ravens took Trent Dilfer to the Super Bowl.
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