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Moreno (1 Viewer)

Billy Ball Thorton

Footballguy
Okay so opinions vary on this guy all over the place. Looks like some people will chalk his success to fresh legs ect... However I do not and want to get opinions of what owners would wan't in return this offseason.

I personally would pay 1.3 for him but dont think it should take that to get him.

I see a Lynch type rebound in the works but actually like Moreno better.

He was a high 1st rd pick so I believe the talent has always been there just needed to Mature. He was getting DUII and obviously not not taking NFL too serious ala Lynch.

what say you owners on your asking price? Late 1st get it done?

 
Okay so opinions vary on this guy all over the place. Looks like some people will chalk his success to fresh legs ect... However I do not and want to get opinions of what owners would wan't in return this offseason. I personally would pay 1.3 for him but dont think it should take that to get him. I see a Lynch type rebound in the works but actually like Moreno better. He was a high 1st rd pick so I believe the talent has always been there just needed to Mature. He was getting DUII and obviously not not taking NFL too serious ala Lynch. what say you owners on your asking price? Late 1st get it done?
Don't forget about Mcgahee... he looked very good until he got hurt. I see a RBBC in Denver next year. gonna be tough for Moreno to carve out a solid enough spot to be worth even close to 1.3I think Moreno's value is much more dependent on his career AFTER Denver.
 
who knows, Willis is what 32? and he has a giant case of the fumbles.

knowshon has shown alot since he got this gig in Denver.

People may/may not believe in hillman but Fox isnt going to play him over Moreno/McGahee.

Stay tuned for the draft to see what denver does.

I think Moreno is a sell if you get a good offer in dyno

his role in 2013 is murky at best

 
I value him as the new Joseph Addai there. Trusted largely unspectacular RB but will put up #'s as the guy with Peyton.

Haven't went in detail with draft class, but I'd probably deal for 1.5 or better.

 
I value him as the new Joseph Addai there. Trusted largely unspectacular RB but will put up #'s as the guy with Peyton.Haven't went in detail with draft class, but I'd probably deal for 1.5 or better.
I think that the Broncos see what they have in Moreno and although McGahee is contracted for another 2 years, I think this is Moreno's show next year. McGahee, 32, has surprisingly overstayed his welcome as a RB in the NFL. I don't know how much more of a beating he can take. Moreno, with Peyton, is a GREAT dynasty player to roster.
 
I value him as the new Joseph Addai there. Trusted largely unspectacular RB but will put up #'s as the guy with Peyton.Haven't went in detail with draft class, but I'd probably deal for 1.5 or better.
I think that the Broncos see what they have in Moreno and although McGahee is contracted for another 2 years, I think this is Moreno's show next year. McGahee, 32, has surprisingly overstayed his welcome as a RB in the NFL. I don't know how much more of a beating he can take. Moreno, with Peyton, is a GREAT dynasty player to roster.
These are my thoughts as well.
 
While I agree with that, I'd still consider 1.3 or better for him. While this class lacks the stars of last year, I still personally believe a Bernard, Lacy, Bell, Ball, Seastrunk, etc. level RB in a good situation could be an excellent asset. I also think there's some solid WRs available as well...

I'd have to project out who I think would go at 1.1 and 1.2, but I'd consider it.

I do think Moreno's in a pretty good position right now though, and I'm in no rush to sell him.

 
I think I would have to strongly consider any offer in the first 10 picks for him. I would actually start offering round 2 value and go from there. If you own 1.3 and 2.3 I would start with 2.3 if you are a believer.

 
picked him up on the ww in one league, and had him on my roster as a trade throw-in in another - pleasantly surprised at what happened. Better still, he's really *looked* legit, and has draft pedigree. There's a lot to like here.

To me, guys like this you keep and don't move for late firsts, fringe player plus mid seconds, etc.

 
picked him up on the ww in one league, and had him on my roster as a trade throw-in in another - pleasantly surprised at what happened. Better still, he's really *looked* legit, and has draft pedigree. There's a lot to like here. To me, guys like this you keep and don't move for late firsts, fringe player plus mid seconds, etc.
Same here. Picked him up in shallow dynasty with intention to trade. After watching him and reading here, agree he's a potential Addai-type back.
 
I believe he is about to have an Addai-like level of productivity.

We had discussed it in another thread and I can't find it but generally, I think he fits very well and can pass protect and fits the scheme catching out of the backfield

 
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I value him as the new Joseph Addai there. Trusted largely unspectacular RB but will put up #'s as the guy with Peyton.Haven't went in detail with draft class, but I'd probably deal for 1.5 or better.
I think that the Broncos see what they have in Moreno and although McGahee is contracted for another 2 years, I think this is Moreno's show next year. McGahee, 32, has surprisingly overstayed his welcome as a RB in the NFL. I don't know how much more of a beating he can take. Moreno, with Peyton, is a GREAT dynasty player to roster.
Agree with this.
 
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.

 
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
he has been very productive at times in ppr. just because he had a long time off, dont let that cloud your view of his future potential
 
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11 KM Rushing: 247-947-7 KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5 TR Receiving: 48-352-1 KM Receiving: 28-213-2 KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3 TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touchesKM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touchesKM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touchMy point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
 
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Great post that guy

My thinking is similar to your. Moreno was 1.1 in most dynasty drafts and the expectations are huge. Once he didn't finish in line with people's investment he was labeled a bust. This however was not the case.

Just like McFadden and Lynch there was a time you could have got both these bust for a 2nd rd rookie pick. Both had injury issues ect and people couldn't stand them.

Knowshonn situation is very similar IMO.

To call him a future top 10 rb in ppr is not crazy, and if your one of the guys that need to see it first you oppratunity to get a deal will be passed.

 
To me, 2012/2013 Knowshon = 2011/2012 CJ Spiller.

His value has deservedly gone up, so a lot of people will dismiss McGahee (FJax), only to be disappointed when the team doesn't flat-out hand over the reigns to the younger guy like we're expecting.

Now, Spiller is finally poised to be the man in 2013, so by this analogy maybe Knowshon takes over in 2014. That's what I'd expect out of him at least.

 
Just like McFadden and Lynch there was a time you could have got both these bust for a 2nd rd rookie pick. Both had injury issues ect and people couldn't stand them.
I don't think McFadden was ever that cheap, just my recollection. Saw Lynch moved for a 4th once, haha.
To call him a future top 10 rb in ppr is not crazy, and if your one of the guys that need to see it first you oppratunity to get a deal will be passed.
Production or trade value? At Addai's height he was probably RB6, and he pretty much did hit the ground running. Addai had a full year of RB1 production at age 26 but no one forgave him for sucking the prior year and you still couldn't move him for anything. It's going to take a Lynchonian resurgence for him to be a RB1 in dynasty.
 
Okay so opinions vary on this guy all over the place. Looks like some people will chalk his success to fresh legs ect... However I do not and want to get opinions of what owners would wan't in return this offseason. I personally would pay 1.3 for him but dont think it should take that to get him. I see a Lynch type rebound in the works but actually like Moreno better. He was a high 1st rd pick so I believe the talent has always been there just needed to Mature. He was getting DUII and obviously not not taking NFL too serious ala Lynch. what say you owners on your asking price? Late 1st get it done?
Don't forget about Mcgahee... he looked very good until he got hurt. I see a RBBC in Denver next year. gonna be tough for Moreno to carve out a solid enough spot to be worth even close to 1.3I think Moreno's value is much more dependent on his career AFTER Denver.
This makes sense to me. Why wouldn't Fox be inclined to use both, similar to the D'Angelo/Stewart situation (admittedly, I don't know that much about it, so feel free to explain why the analogy could be poor).If they cut McGahee, then that would certainly be a good thing, but if not, then it would be hard to trust. Though you could certainly argue that McGahee will not be good enough at that point.
 
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11 KM Rushing: 247-947-7 KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5 TR Receiving: 48-352-1 KM Receiving: 28-213-2 KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3 TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touchesKM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touchesKM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touchMy point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
 


Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11

KM Rushing: 247-947-7

KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5

TR Receiving: 48-352-1

KM Receiving: 28-213-2

KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3

TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touches

KM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touches

KM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touch

My point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
Wow!! Talk about just making crap up to make a point.

2009-2010 seasons

Buck

179 rushes 789-3td's 4.4ypc

59 rec 480- 2td's 8.1 ypr

Moreno

429-1726-12td's 4.0ypc

65-585- 5td's 9.0ypr

So Moreno crushes Buck in every catagory less a 4.4 ypc vs. a 4.0 and he was as you put it "heavily outpreformed" It's pretty common for the change of pace back with much less carries to have a slightly better ypc, yet Moreno still avg more yards per catch.

Please explain how he was outpreformed

 
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All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
You aren't completely correct with this statement."KM was on a much better team."

2009 Broncos: 20.4 points/game, 20th in the NFL.

2012 Browns: 20.0 points/game, 24th in the NFL.

2009 Broncos: 13th in passing offense.

2012 Browns: 19th in passing offense.

I'll ignore rushing stats, since we're comparing the two main RBs from these teams, but it's very difficult to support the notion that Moreno was on a "much better" team. They were very similar teams. Were the Broncos better? Yes. Were they significantly better? No.

"[KM] was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter."

Richardson was outperformed by a never-was Monterio Hardesty. Hardesty's YPC was over a yard/carry higher than Richardson. Veterans are often better than rookies, because they are used to the NFL speed and style of play, while rookies must adjust. Hell, Chester Taylor put up equivalent "rate" stats as ADP during ADP's rookie season, but I think everyone would agree that ADP is the far superior player. Comparing rookies to veterans is a flawed experiment by its very nature.

All that being said, I think predicting Moreno as a top-10 dynasty RB is a bit premature. If McGahee comes back, you're probably looking at a RBBC, at best. If McGahee retires/gets cut, then Moreno will have value, as long as Peyton is QB in Denver.

 


Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11

KM Rushing: 247-947-7

KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5

TR Receiving: 48-352-1

KM Receiving: 28-213-2

KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3

TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touches

KM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touches

KM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touch

My point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
Wow!! Talk about just making crap up to make a point.

2009-2010 seasons

Buck

179 rushes 789-3td's 4.4ypc

59 rec 480- 2td's 8.1 ypr

Moreno

429-1726-12td's 4.0ypc

65-585- 5td's 9.0ypr

So Moreno crushes Buck in every catagory less a 4.4 ypc vs. a 4.0 and he was as you put it "heavily outpreformed" It's pretty common for the change of pace back with much less carries to have a slightly better ypc, yet Moreno still avg more yards per catch.

Please explain how he was outpreformed
Buckhalter had back problems in 2010 starting from training camp. Obv if you watched the games in 2009 you remember Buck looking better. Please list only the 2009 stats and then feign the same outrage.
 
'thriftyrocker said:
'Billy Ball Thorton said:


'bigums said:
'thatguy said:
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11

KM Rushing: 247-947-7

KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5

TR Receiving: 48-352-1

KM Receiving: 28-213-2

KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3

TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touches

KM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touches

KM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touch

My point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
Wow!! Talk about just making crap up to make a point.

2009-2010 seasons

Buck

179 rushes 789-3td's 4.4ypc

59 rec 480- 2td's 8.1 ypr

Moreno

429-1726-12td's 4.0ypc

65-585- 5td's 9.0ypr

So Moreno crushes Buck in every catagory less a 4.4 ypc vs. a 4.0 and he was as you put it "heavily outpreformed" It's pretty common for the change of pace back with much less carries to have a slightly better ypc, yet Moreno still avg more yards per catch.

Please explain how he was outpreformed
Buckhalter had back problems in 2010 starting from training camp. Obv if you watched the games in 2009 you remember Buck looking better. Please list only the 2009 stats and then feign the same outrage.
I got an idea. Why dont I just take Bucks best game and use that? Why would I not use all the numbers as it paints the entire picture.

You can downsize the sample and make it look good or bad. Bottom line Buck was Moreno backup and was outperformed by the Starter.

 
'Frankbot said:
To me, 2012/2013 Knowshon = 2011/2012 CJ Spiller. His value has deservedly gone up, so a lot of people will dismiss McGahee (FJax), only to be disappointed when the team doesn't flat-out hand over the reigns to the younger guy like we're expecting. Now, Spiller is finally poised to be the man in 2013, so by this analogy maybe Knowshon takes over in 2014. That's what I'd expect out of him at least.
Couldn't disagree more with this assessment. Fred Jackson was a stronger player last year than McGahee was this year, and certainly better than McGahee will be coming off his ligament tears.The biggest difference is that Knowshon has been given a chance before and didn't excel, unlike CJ, who has been stuck behind Freddie until he got injured and then CJ went off. Knowshon is playing at a really strong level right now and given how underwhelming McGahee was, especially with his fumbles, you'd have to think Knowshon is going to have the inside job to start next year if he finishes the season off with some more big games like he's been putting up.
 
'thriftyrocker said:
'Billy Ball Thorton said:


'bigums said:
'thatguy said:
Bounce back? That implies that the guy was good at one time. I agree he has value in that offense but the guy has been putrid his whole career. He has no explosion and rarely gets more than 3 or 4 yards. So lets not get carried away because a team drafted him in the first. There are lots of busts every year. I got him off waivers before he was named the starter and I'm happy with that price.
Would you say Trent Richardson is a bust, or "putrid"? I mean, he's only one of the most highly regarded RB prospects in the past decade--perhaps second only to AP, and was maybe even ahead of AP in some scouts eyes. Because his rookie season, to date, is probably less impressive than Moreno's. Let's have a look, shall we? Overall, there isn't a whole lot of difference between the two, and one could argue that Knowshon, based on rate stats, was more impressive during his rookie campaign than Richardson has been thus far this season (granted, neither of the two was/has been very impressive, so the term more impressive does not mean much, except to say that Knowshon outplayed the most hyped RB since AP). I'm also going to include Knowshon's numbers from his sophomore campaign, which was the last time he had meaningful touches prior to 4 weeks ago. You'll notice a significant improvement from his rookie campaign. Since then, his career has been derailed by injuries and lack of opportunity, but he WAS on an upward trajectory and I would hardly call his play putrid. Sure, he's not incredibly exciting (although anyone who wasn't extremely impressed and 'excited' by his hurdle job over Ed Reed this past week is probably catatonic), but he has always been quietly productive. The only other negative, aside from his lack of flair and his injury problems, was his fumbling problem, but many young backs have periods during which they struggle to hold onto the ball--most of them eventually right the ship. AP and Tiki both come to mind. Watching Knowshon the past four weeks, it's very obvious that he is making a point to hold onto the ball extra tight when running in traffic. Anyway, the Numbers:TR Rushing: 258-897-11

KM Rushing: 247-947-7

KM2 Rushing: 182-779-5

TR Receiving: 48-352-1

KM Receiving: 28-213-2

KM2 Receiving: 37-372-3

TR rate stats: 3.48 YPC, 7.33 YPR, 5.33 YPT(target), 72.7% catch rate, 12 total TD’s, 1TD/25.5 touches

KM rate stats: 3.83 YPC, 7.61 YPR, 5.20 YPT(target), 68.3% catch rate, 9 total TD’s, 1TD/30.6 touches

KM2 rate stats: 4.28 YPC, 10.1 YPR, 7.75 YPT(target), 77.1% catch rate, 8 total TD’s, 1TD/27.4 touch

My point is simply to say that not all rookie RB's, even the top prospects, hit the ground running the way guys like AP did or Doug Martin has. For some, there is a learning curve, just like at other positions. I believe that Trent Richardson is going to be a super star, but he is having a very pedestrian rookie season, just as Knowshon did. His sophomore campaign was looking very promising before being derailed by injuries. And he's just now getting meaningful and bell-cow reps again, and is looking damn good in the process. The pedigree is there. The meaningful data that we have show a positive trajectory. The opportunity is now there. I see no reason to believe what we're seeing is a mirage, and no reason to believe it will not continue, barring injury. IMO Moreno is Denver's new bell cow RB, for the remainder of this season and for future seasons, and a likely top 7-10 dynasty RB. How many, RB's after all, are guaranteed 20+ touches per game? Not many. That, mixed with the talent that he has flashed, make him an obvious buy for me. If I could pry him away from a skeptical owner for a mid to late first rounder, I'd do it in an instant. The only thing that will derail this train is an injury, and that's a very real concern, but IMO no more so than for any other RB. Knowshon's primary injury problem his first few years was a recurring hamstring injury, which I think it's safe to say has healed completely by now.
All that is nice, but it's in a vacuum. KM was on a much better team and was heavily outperformed by a broken down Corell Buckhalter. Even if you like his year 2 stats, the team/scheme was still much better than TR has now. He's a producer, and I loved him coming out of Georgia, but he's got 1 gear and other than leaping people (did in college as well), his highlight reel is pretty tame. I don't know that he's anywhere near the talent of TR, but he's in a good system, with lots of talent around him so he should continue to produce. Swap them, and I think TR puts up a MONSTER season in Denver. I don't think you can compare these two at all.
Wow!! Talk about just making crap up to make a point.

2009-2010 seasons

Buck

179 rushes 789-3td's 4.4ypc

59 rec 480- 2td's 8.1 ypr

Moreno

429-1726-12td's 4.0ypc

65-585- 5td's 9.0ypr

So Moreno crushes Buck in every catagory less a 4.4 ypc vs. a 4.0 and he was as you put it "heavily outpreformed" It's pretty common for the change of pace back with much less carries to have a slightly better ypc, yet Moreno still avg more yards per catch.

Please explain how he was outpreformed
Buckhalter had back problems in 2010 starting from training camp. Obv if you watched the games in 2009 you remember Buck looking better. Please list only the 2009 stats and then feign the same outrage.
I got an idea. Why dont I just take Bucks best game and use that? Why would I not use all the numbers as it paints the entire picture.

You can downsize the sample and make it look good or bad. Bottom line Buck was Moreno backup and was outperformed by the Starter.
You can't just say WOW - he had 4.9 YPC for a whole year. That's awesome! You're taking aggregates that don't take situation or anything else into account. Buck was hurt constantly that season, but every time he was able to be in a game for more than a few carries, they fed him and he delivered big numbers.You can look at and manipulate stats all you want. Moreno's are decent, but he doesn't have anything WOW about him. I loved him in college and drafted him #1 overall in my dyno, so maybe I'm just disappointed, but he's just good, not great. He doesn't have overwhelming shiftiness, power, or an extra gear that makes him something special. Trent does.

And while the CLE vs DEN offensive stats were posted above, I can't honestly argue with someone who compares those two teams. That Denver team had a top 10 defense with 3 pro bowlers and Brandon Marshall catching 100+ balls from a more than competent Orton. They had a +2 pt differential per game vs Cleveland's -2. I can hand pick a ton of stats, but those two teams were not even close to similar.

 
I'm certainly not Moreno's biggest fan. I think a lot of what he's doing right now is because he's on a prolific passing offense with perhaps the greatest QB of all time leading the team. I also detailed in a couple other threads how he's coming in with fresh legs after defenses have played 12 weeks. He's also done his damage against three of the worst rush defenses in the league.

Having said that, I see why some believe in him. There's plenty of RBs out there that have remade themselves after flaming out early in their careers. If Moreno manages to become the workhorse guy in Denver next year, he'll certainly carry a lot of value and be a bargain for those that traded for him now.

I just don't see that as very likely however. Moreno just never had the physical tools to be anything more than a below average back. That showed up at the combine, and has showed up throughout the beginning of his NFL career. The guy has 568 career carries. Five of them have gone for 20+ yards. He's never had a carry go longer than 36 yards. I know there's a lot of his defenders that say he's a different guy now. He's had 102 carries this season. His longest carry is 20 yards. This is why the previous Denver regime soured on him, and why the current one didn't activate him for most of this season.

Take a look around the league at other RB's that get carries. Anybody with any job longevity at all absolutely dwarfs those numbers. A 30 year old McGahee hit on 7 such plays in 2011 on 249 carries, including a 60 yarder.

 
'Frankbot said:
To me, 2012/2013 Knowshon = 2011/2012 CJ Spiller. His value has deservedly gone up, so a lot of people will dismiss McGahee (FJax), only to be disappointed when the team doesn't flat-out hand over the reigns to the younger guy like we're expecting. Now, Spiller is finally poised to be the man in 2013, so by this analogy maybe Knowshon takes over in 2014. That's what I'd expect out of him at least.
Couldn't disagree more with this assessment. Fred Jackson was a stronger player last year than McGahee was this year, and certainly better than McGahee will be coming off his ligament tears.The biggest difference is that Knowshon has been given a chance before and didn't excel, unlike CJ, who has been stuck behind Freddie until he got injured and then CJ went off. Knowshon is playing at a really strong level right now and given how underwhelming McGahee was, especially with his fumbles, you'd have to think Knowshon is going to have the inside job to start next year if he finishes the season off with some more big games like he's been putting up.
I'm a Moreno owner and certainly hope you're right, but I'm just erring on the side of caution with this one. Unless McGahee is outright released I'm approaching that backfield with the assumption that both guys will disappoint next year. If I'm not mistaken, McGahee's got 20lbs or so on Knowshon, so at the very least if he's on the roster he'll be vulturing goalline work, no? Knowshon's an interesting stash and could certainly pay off big, but you've got to admit that he also could be another example of a guy who gets a late season opportunity, gets scooped up off of FF waiver wires and then puts up enough points that everyone in FF circles starts selling him as the next big thing all offseason. Something about that formula where a guy comes back from the FF grave and surprises everyone - it just seems to automatically result in hype all offseason and owners assuming coaches will want to make that player "the man" next year. I tell you though, if McGahee is still in town then I'm definitely approaching Knowshon with caution... if McGahee's gone then the sky is the limit. RB1 potential.
 
I just don't see that as very likely however. Moreno just never had the physical tools to be anything more than a below average back. That showed up at the combine, and has showed up throughout the beginning of his NFL career. The guy has 568 career carries. Five of them have gone for 20+ yards. He's never had a carry go longer than 36 yards. I know there's a lot of his defenders that say he's a different guy now. He's had 102 carries this season. His longest carry is 20 yards. This is why the previous Denver regime soured on him, and why the current one didn't activate him for most of this season.
Well this just ain't true. The previous regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They soured on him because he couldn't stay healthy. The current regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They didn't activate him because he wasn't fully recovered from his injury early, he didn't play ST, and they needed the roster spot. Except for McGahee, their other RBs played ST.

Again, I'll go on record as saying that I'm not as high on Moreno as most. IF McGahee gets released/retires, Moreno could have some value as the RB in a P. Manning offense (ala Joseph Addai), but you're stacking your cards and manipulating the facts to try to make a point that doesn't exist.

 
Have we discussed how McGahee's contract will come into play? 2.5 million next year. Moreno set to make 1.7 next year and 1.3 after that. I'm not an expert in this area of the NFL. Could this salary play a part in Denver's decision to bring him back?http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/willis-mcgahee/
For sure. Given his age and injury, 2.5 million absolutely comes into play. If Moreno continues to look solid then they just found a way to save a significant chunk. I honestly don't expect McGahee to be back next year. I suspect Moreno will assume an Addai-esque role. In 2009 Addai was a top 10 back but he only broke 20 yards twice. His long for the season was 21 yards. His longest reception was 25. With Thomas and Decker (and the TEs), this offense isn't about 50 yard runs. If Denver doesn't sign DeAngelo Williams or something like that, then Moreno could easily finish top 10 without shedding his "unspectacular" label.
 
Have we discussed how McGahee's contract will come into play? 2.5 million next year. Moreno set to make 1.7 next year and 1.3 after that. I'm not an expert in this area of the NFL. Could this salary play a part in Denver's decision to bring him back?http://www.spotrac.com/nfl/denver-broncos/willis-mcgahee/
For sure. Given his age and injury, 2.5 million absolutely comes into play. If Moreno continues to look solid then they just found a way to save a significant chunk. I honestly don't expect McGahee to be back next year. I suspect Moreno will assume an Addai-esque role. In 2009 Addai was a top 10 back but he only broke 20 yards twice. His long for the season was 21 yards. His longest reception was 25. With Thomas and Decker (and the TEs), this offense isn't about 50 yard runs. If Denver doesn't sign DeAngelo Williams or something like that, then Moreno could easily finish top 10 without shedding his "unspectacular" label.
I don't know what to think. Rotoworld's most recent post on Willis says that they suspect Willis will be back next as their starter since he's due "only" $2.5M.
 
If you can get a 1st round pick for him you'd be crazy not to take it.
So you can draft the next Moreno or Ingram? I'll take a known commodity over a draft pick any day.
Couldn't agree more with cstu. A known commodity? Known for what, exactly? His stellar career to date? A three game stretch where he's producing primarily based on volume? Known to be 4th string (FOURTH!) behind a 31 year old, a rookie, and a journeyman, until the past few weeks? There's certainly a lot of "knowns" about Moreno, but none of them paint a very bright future as a starting RB in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, Knowshon owners (myself included) should enjoy the ride while it lasts. But to think that this is some Knowshown resurgence and that he's suddenly this dyanmic RB is foolish. He's a middling talent that's producing because of Peyton Manning. That's great if he has job security like Joseph Addai did. I'm just not in the camp that feels very strongly that Moreno will hold onto that starting RB role long-term.
 
For sure. Given his age and injury, 2.5 million absolutely comes into play. If Moreno continues to look solid then they just found a way to save a significant chunk. I honestly don't expect McGahee to be back next year. I suspect Moreno will assume an Addai-esque role. In 2009 Addai was a top 10 back but he only broke 20 yards twice. His long for the season was 21 yards. His longest reception was 25. With Thomas and Decker (and the TEs), this offense isn't about 50 yard runs. If Denver doesn't sign DeAngelo Williams or something like that, then Moreno could easily finish top 10 without shedding his "unspectacular" label.
100% agree here - I think the appropriate comparison for Moreno is how Addai looked in Peyton's offense in Indy. Nothing flashy, and more of an aggregator than a play-maker. But, in Peyton's offense, the RB just needs to keep the defense honest, keep the pass-rush from selling out every time, and hit the hole hard for 4YPC. Pass protection and receiving ability is also paramount, which Moreno can do all of those things.And to me, it looks like he's getting better as the season goes on and he gets more time and more reps...

I don't know what to think. Rotoworld's most recent post on Willis says that they suspect Willis will be back next as their starter since he's due "only" $2.5M.
Rotoworld blurb writers are NOT the sharpest guys in the room - at least not all of them. I rarely take their "advice" in the blurbs for anything... just use them to point me to the article or tweet so I can judge for myself. They definitely scour the news outlets most of the time, and Silva and Wessling give some pretty good advice/rankings, but the blurb writers are atrocious.Recently, they wrote that Kenny Britt was excused from practice after showing up late. What the article actually stated was that Britt was given an excused absence for a personal matter, still showed up, and didn't practice. Completely different story...

 
Im sure Willis will be back, beacuase NFL teams need RB depth.
So you're saying you think he'll come back as "depth"? Willis could still return this year (in the AFC title game if the Broncos are still in it), it will be interesting to see what they do with him if they are in that game.
 
I just don't see that as very likely however. Moreno just never had the physical tools to be anything more than a below average back. That showed up at the combine, and has showed up throughout the beginning of his NFL career. The guy has 568 career carries. Five of them have gone for 20+ yards. He's never had a carry go longer than 36 yards. I know there's a lot of his defenders that say he's a different guy now. He's had 102 carries this season. His longest carry is 20 yards. This is why the previous Denver regime soured on him, and why the current one didn't activate him for most of this season.
Well this just ain't true. The previous regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They soured on him because he couldn't stay healthy. The current regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They didn't activate him because he wasn't fully recovered from his injury early, he didn't play ST, and they needed the roster spot. Except for McGahee, their other RBs played ST.

Again, I'll go on record as saying that I'm not as high on Moreno as most. IF McGahee gets released/retires, Moreno could have some value as the RB in a P. Manning offense (ala Joseph Addai), but you're stacking your cards and manipulating the facts to try to make a point that doesn't exist.
So you honestly don't think the fact that his game is all but devoid of big play potential has anything to do with his diminished role over the last couple years? I'd agree that his injuries certainly played a role too, but I didn't just make up his lack of big plays. I didn't skew any statistics. Its real, its a large sample, and it doesn't bode well for his potential as a feature type guy. I guess people can ignore this if they want. But the only RB that I can find with any sort of longevity with a similar dearth of big plays is Shonn Greene. Coaches/GMs want to know that if they are gonna give you the ball 15-20x a game that they are gonna get some explosive plays. That simply is not part of Moreno's game, and I don't think he'll ever get a full time feature role because of it.

 
If you can get a 1st round pick for him you'd be crazy not to take it.
So you can draft the next Moreno or Ingram? I'll take a known commodity over a draft pick any day.
Couldn't agree more with cstu. A known commodity? Known for what, exactly? His stellar career to date? A three game stretch where he's producing primarily based on volume? Known to be 4th string (FOURTH!) behind a 31 year old, a rookie, and a journeyman, until the past few weeks? There's certainly a lot of "knowns" about Moreno, but none of them paint a very bright future as a starting RB in the NFL. Don't get me wrong, Knowshon owners (myself included) should enjoy the ride while it lasts. But to think that this is some Knowshown resurgence and that he's suddenly this dyanmic RB is foolish. He's a middling talent that's producing because of Peyton Manning. That's great if he has job security like Joseph Addai did. I'm just not in the camp that feels very strongly that Moreno will hold onto that starting RB role long-term.
See my other post. I never said anything about him being dynamic. I'm expecting an Addai-like role. But of course we should wait out the next couple games and the playoffs to see how Moreno does in his audition for 2013, but if Moreno is in line to plod out 200+ carries and snag 50 dump off passes then I'll take that over a non-premium rookie pick - especially this year. What you gonna get with a mid-first this year? Rookie draft picks are a crapshoot. Half the guys will be available for pennies on the dollar in a year or two. And half of those guys won't even be worth the pennies. I'll take an average talent in an above average situation over a crapshoot.
 
For sure. Given his age and injury, 2.5 million absolutely comes into play. If Moreno continues to look solid then they just found a way to save a significant chunk. I honestly don't expect McGahee to be back next year. I suspect Moreno will assume an Addai-esque role. In 2009 Addai was a top 10 back but he only broke 20 yards twice. His long for the season was 21 yards. His longest reception was 25. With Thomas and Decker (and the TEs), this offense isn't about 50 yard runs. If Denver doesn't sign DeAngelo Williams or something like that, then Moreno could easily finish top 10 without shedding his "unspectacular" label.
100% agree here - I think the appropriate comparison for Moreno is how Addai looked in Peyton's offense in Indy. Nothing flashy, and more of an aggregator than a play-maker. But, in Peyton's offense, the RB just needs to keep the defense honest, keep the pass-rush from selling out every time, and hit the hole hard for 4YPC. Pass protection and receiving ability is also paramount, which Moreno can do all of those things.
What did the Colts do after watching Addai not make big plays for 2 years? Draft another RB in the 1st round.
 
Im sure Willis will be back, beacuase NFL teams need RB depth.
So you're saying you think he'll come back as "depth"? Willis could still return this year (in the AFC title game if the Broncos are still in it), it will be interesting to see what they do with him if they are in that game.
No idea how Fox will use both McGahee & Moreno. But as you can see I bet you Fox is glad he had Moreno around. Fox still wont trust Hillman next year. I expect some kind of RBBC with the split to be unknown.
 
What's the backup RB in Carolina (where Fox came from) getting paid? That's been a very high figure for years.
Stewart was on his rookie deal until the extension signed this year with Hurney. In fact, that's been the model for Carolina backups. First DW was the backup to DeShaun Foster while he was on his rookie deal, then Stew and Goodson as the backups on their rookie contracts.
 
Im sure Willis will be back, beacuase NFL teams need RB depth.
Backup QBs get paid 2.5 mil. Backup RBs don't. I'd be shocked if Willis is back at 2.5 mil and realistically his veteran minimum could make him prohibitively expensive for a backup role.
What's the backup RB in Carolina (where Fox came from) getting paid? That's been a very high figure for years.
Were you just pointing that out as a fun exercise or do you think one dumb owner/GM negates my statement? And as JFS171 pointed out, your statement isn't even true. When John Fox was there, the backups weren't getting paid.Stephen Davis/DeShaun FosterDeShaun Foster/DeAngelo WilliamsDeAngelo Williams/Jonathan StewartKnowshon Moreno/Ronnie Hillmanthe veteran contract/rookie contract trend continues...
 
Stop with the big play crap, it does not matter in a manning offense.

Let me ask this, big play guy, last week

Moreno 22- 118 no big plays

Chris Johnson 21-122 big play included

Now I'm no NFL coach but I believe the 4-5 consistent yards Moreno gets is preferred to a bunch of nothing then boom.

Manning is there for the big plays and Moreno is the perfect back.

Take Moreno last 4games (small sample size) over a year and he gets close to 2000 total yards. Big play not needed and I dare say most coaches would prefer to get those yards w/o big plays, as that means consistency.

I don't have Moreno in a league but he continues these numbers, I'll trade a Chris Johnson straight for him, as I also like consistent production vs. Big play production.

 
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I just don't see that as very likely however. Moreno just never had the physical tools to be anything more than a below average back. That showed up at the combine, and has showed up throughout the beginning of his NFL career. The guy has 568 career carries. Five of them have gone for 20+ yards. He's never had a carry go longer than 36 yards. I know there's a lot of his defenders that say he's a different guy now. He's had 102 carries this season. His longest carry is 20 yards. This is why the previous Denver regime soured on him, and why the current one didn't activate him for most of this season.
Well this just ain't true. The previous regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They soured on him because he couldn't stay healthy. The current regime didn't "sour on him" because of his lack of big plays. They didn't activate him because he wasn't fully recovered from his injury early, he didn't play ST, and they needed the roster spot. Except for McGahee, their other RBs played ST.

Again, I'll go on record as saying that I'm not as high on Moreno as most. IF McGahee gets released/retires, Moreno could have some value as the RB in a P. Manning offense (ala Joseph Addai), but you're stacking your cards and manipulating the facts to try to make a point that doesn't exist.
So you honestly don't think the fact that his game is all but devoid of big play potential has anything to do with his diminished role over the last couple years? I'd agree that his injuries certainly played a role too, but I didn't just make up his lack of big plays. I didn't skew any statistics. Its real, its a large sample, and it doesn't bode well for his potential as a feature type guy. I guess people can ignore this if they want. But the only RB that I can find with any sort of longevity with a similar dearth of big plays is Shonn Greene. Coaches/GMs want to know that if they are gonna give you the ball 15-20x a game that they are gonna get some explosive plays. That simply is not part of Moreno's game, and I don't think he'll ever get a full time feature role because of it.
You didn't skew any statistics, but you took two things that weren't related, and mashed them together.A=Moreno doesn't make big plays

B=he began to get less PT under the old regime, and was inactive a lot under this regime,

so that must mean C=they must have soured on him because of his lack of big-plays.

What you fail to mention/account for is that until he got dinged at the end of 2010, Moreno was getting 19.9 touches/game. That doesn't sound like they "soured" on him. Then in 2011, he only played in 6 games because of various injuries. Finally, this year, he played early, looked slow and rusty, and was de-activated. Again, most teams don't keep 4 or 5 RBs active on game days, so they allowed Moreno to recover from his injury, since he was the "replacement" for McGahee & didn't play ST. As soon as McGahee got hurt, Moreno was not only activated, but named the starter. THAT FACT, more than any other, indicates that your belief that this current regime has "soured on him" b/c of his lack of big plays is totally false.

B=The previous regime "soured on him"

so, A+B must =C,

 
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