Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Moss way better than Owens? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter jdoggydogg
- Start date
GreedoShotFirst
Footballguy
back-to-back defensive player of the year awards and a championship ring
Last edited by a moderator:
Loomba
Footballguy
After watching TO play incredibly well in the Superbowl on a barely healed leg, I'll take him on an NFL team and a fantasy team. I think TO is more driven and less of an injury risk. Hopefully, a fresh start for Randy in Oakland will get him more motivated, but Collins scares me.
Chaka
Footballguy
T.O. is a great receiver but the amount of denial about the guy on this board is unbelievable. If people have to justify his supposed superiority with terms like "total package" then they are just reaching for intangibles. If we are going to judge a receiver on being the total package then the best receiver in the game is Hines Ward. He works harder, blocks better, has better hands, runs better routs, is a threat on end arounds and options and is a better team leader.I will say it again T.O. is a great receiver but I can think of three guys off the top of my head I would take over him (or very seriously debate the issue) Marvin, Ward and C.Johnson...oh wait Holt too...(maybe Javon?). There isn't one guy that I, or any sane general manager in the NFL, would take over Moss.I don't care about what anyone perceives to be his work ethic or the supposed distractions he causes, Randy Moss is the best wide receiver in the game, maybe ever. Deal with it.
How is that countering my own point? I've already agreed that Moss is more talented than Owens. I know the odds of finding the next Moss is like finding a needle in a haystack. My point was to say that given everything that they've seen with Moss, they still look for the qualities that Owens has and try to draft that type of receiver. Also GMs look for more qualities than just talent alone. That's why 20 GM's passed on Moss in the draft, that's why SF had enough of Owens and that's why Minny traded Moss.
One more point to add is that Moss will be playing most of his games outdoors next year and while I don't have the stats to back it up, he wasn't as effective with the long bombs outdoors as he is indoors. While he should still be very good, IMO he just wouldn't be as great as he used to be.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
He was a scout. Scout's honor
He scouted for the Canadian Football League and the Arizona Cardinals.
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Exactly. I've seen a couple of ESPN football guys say specifically that Moss has played with multiple injuries for much of his career. Furthermore, to comment on Owens' Super Bowl performance, certainly, playing with that pain was admirable. But NFL players do that all the time. I heard an ESPN pundit (Tom Jackson or Merrill Hodge, can't remember) praising Owens' choice to play in the Super Bowl as the ultimate team player. Uhhhhhhhh, let's not forget that we're talking about one of the most egotistical, selfish players in the NFL. Was Owens a team player when he stated that 49er coach Steve Mariucci outright lost a game on purpose to the Bears because Mariucci and Bear coach **** Juron are friends? Was Owens a team player when he constantly blamed Jeff Garcia for being an inferior QB?
czar7
Footballguy
I think comparing these two receivers is very difficult. Owens and Moss have different styles of play and both are the best in the game in their respective stlyes. If you are throwing the ball 0-20 yards down field , no doubt you want to get the ball in Owens hands. If you are throwing the ball 35+ yrds down field, hands down you want Moss to be your target. As for their bad attitudes, they seem to have a yearly rotation between the two to see who can get the most bad press. But who knows, TOs attitude in Philly was ok this year maybe the fresh start in Oakland will be good for Moss.As for who I'd rather have on my team, I'd pick Owens. He is more of a ball control reciever which keeps your offense on the field. Also his work ethic is undeniably one of the best in the NFL, which spreads to the rest of the team when your star player works so hard. As for Moss, I'm not completely sold that he will put up the same crazy numbers in Oakland. I know he had great success without Culpepper, but I think Culpepper was a major factor in his success with his ability to throw the ball 55+yds over the defense and have Moss run under it.
Terrell Owens is a physical specimen. He is huge for a WR and still maintains good speed (not great). He has good hands (not great). Because of his size and strength, his ability to run after the catch is unparalleled in the NFL. No WR breaks more tackles. He is a fantastic player.Randy Moss is a FREAK. He is the ultimate WR. He is faster than Owens. He has perhaps the best hands in the league. He is an inch taller than Owens AND has tremendous leaping ability. When the ball is in the air, there is no player in the league better tracking it down and making the catch. He just has fantastic ball skills - I bet he is a good basketball player. MOSS IS THE BEST WR IN FOOTBALL TODAY.
jurb26
Footballguy
1. The reason coaches and GM's are not loking for the next Moss it beause a player of his caliber and talent is unrealistic to find. A once in a lifetime type talent if you will. Its a lost cause looking for guys with his abilty, they simply don't exhist. Trust me, if there is another player with Moss-like ability.... GMs won't have to be looking for him. He will be hyped so bad its sick. You counter your own point by saying Moss is a once in a life time player. Hence, there can be only one in the life spans of these coaches and GM's. So why bother looking for another or trying to fit one into that mold? Moss' freakish talent sperates him from any mold you could want to make. The player is going to have to have that same freakish talent in order to follow Moss' suit. hasn't happend yet, and most likely wont' any time soon either.
2. There isn't a single GM in the NFL that isn't kicking themselves for passing on Moss then and now. Moss is the major reason you did start seeing the "troubled" players getting reached on in years following that. Moss hasn't just changed how teams play D every Sunday vs. his team. he changed the outlook a lot of teams have on drafting troubled players as well.
3. So Moss is now moving outdoors, big deal. I laugh every time I hear this now. Boy talk about reaching for reasons to bash a guy. I didn't hear anyone clammering about how TO moved form the comfy confines of San Fran to the wintery cold Philly area. A much worse change IMO than simply moving from a dome to one of the best weather cities in America. Its not like he is moving to GB or NE where it will be raining and snowy a lot of the time. Its Oak, Cali! Yeah all that sunshine and warm weather is really going to slow Moss down I'll bet.
Plus its not like the guys covering him don't have to play on the same turf.
Last edited by a moderator:
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
Some of the most amazing plays we've seen from Moss were in GB, in bad weather. Moss isn't some specialist that plays far better on turf than he does on grass (remember Napolean Kaufman?) The very notion that Moss isn't as good on grass is ludicrous. If one wants to argue that ALL players are a bit slower on grass, then sure. What the hell. But one of the things that makes Moss so special is that Moss could be triple-covered quite well and still catch a TD. So even if Moss wasn't as fast as he is, his jumping skill and soft hands would still make him a dominant player.
Last edited by a moderator:
A GM doesn't rule out looking for a speedy, tall, and soft handed receiver simply because they won't find one. If that's the type of receiver they wanted, they would scout for that type of receiver. But they don't. They look for big, fast and strong. The reason why they don't look for next Moss is because his style of play is alot riskier than Owens. When you throw the ball deep it's a toss up. Moss plays this type of game better than anyone. But throwing slants and crossing patterns is safer and has higher percentages.Troubled players have always been reached upon. The Miami Hurricanes always get drafted and they are poster boys for troubled players.1. The reason coaches and GM's are not loking for the next Moss it beause a player of his caliber and talent is unrealistic to find. A once in a lifetime type talent if you will. Its a lost cause looking for guys with his abilty, they simply don't exhist. Trust me, if there is another player with Moss-like ability.... GMs won't have to be looking for him. He will be hyped its sick. You counter your own point by saying Moss is a once in a life time player. Hence, there can be only once in the life spans of these coaches and GM's. So why bother looking for another or trying to fit one into that mold?
2. There isn't a single GM in the NFL that isn't kicking themselves for passing on Moss then and now. Moss is the major reason you did start seeing the "troubled" players getting reached on in years following that. Moss hasn't just changed how teams play D every Sunday vs. his team. he changed the outlook a lot of teams have on drafting troubled players as well.
3. So Moss is now moving outdoors, big deal. I laugh every time I hear this now. Boy talk about reaching for reasons to bash a guy. I didn't hear anyone clammering about how TO moved form the comfy confines of San Fran to the wintery cold Philly area. A much worse change IMO than simply moving from a dome to one of the best weather cities in America. Its not like he is moving to GB or NE where it will be raining and snowy a lot of the time. Its Oak, Cali! Yeah all that sunshine and warm weather is really going to slow Moss down I'll bet.
It's not about the turf. It is about air and wind. SF is far from comfy with all the swirling winds. Why do you think the west coast offense works so well? Because the short passes don't get caught up in the wind like 50 yard bombs. Jerry Rice became the great WR he is from YAC, not from throwing it up in the air and jumping for it. Now I don't know the conditions in Oak but I'm sure if someone did an analysis of how well Moss does outdoors compared to indoors you would find that he's much better indoors. He'll eventually adjust to the outdoor conditions but it won't be the same as the domes. I'm not saying that it will have a big effect, but it will have an effect.
Again I've never knocked Moss' talent, I just feel that Owens has plenty to offer that would induce people to choose him over Moss.
Last edited by a moderator:
jdoggydogg
Footballguy
I've seen a few games in Oakland, and the wind has never been a problem for the games I attended. SF and Oakland aren't far apart geographically, but the wind in SF is brutal.
This is simply a guess, but I would guess that more than 75% of NFL teams would take Moss over Owens in a heartbeat.
jurb26
Footballguy
You greatly underestimate Moss. The guy is 6,4" runs a low 4.3 40, has a 44"+ vert jump, catches everying with in sight, beats jams at the line, double/sometimes triple coverage, and adjusts to the ball better than any one else playing the game. How many WRs other than Moss can you name right now.... heck ever with that kind of ability?As for the outdoors, there is now justifiabgle way to say he will be worse because of it. He played outdoors in college and dominted, but that was college and well.... we won't even talk about the conference.A GM doesn't rule out looking for a speedy, tall, and soft handed receiver simply because they won't find one. If that's the type of receiver they wanted, they would scout for that type of receiver. But they don't. They look for big, fast and strong. The reason why they don't look for next Moss is because his style of play is alot riskier than Owens. When you throw the ball deep it's a toss up. Moss plays this type of game better than anyone. But throwing slants and crossing patterns is safer and has higher percentages.Troubled players have always been reached upon. The Miami Hurricanes always get drafted and they are poster boys for troubled players.1. The reason coaches and GM's are not loking for the next Moss it beause a player of his caliber and talent is unrealistic to find. A once in a lifetime type talent if you will. Its a lost cause looking for guys with his abilty, they simply don't exhist. Trust me, if there is another player with Moss-like ability.... GMs won't have to be looking for him. He will be hyped its sick. You counter your own point by saying Moss is a once in a life time player. Hence, there can be only once in the life spans of these coaches and GM's. So why bother looking for another or trying to fit one into that mold?
2. There isn't a single GM in the NFL that isn't kicking themselves for passing on Moss then and now. Moss is the major reason you did start seeing the "troubled" players getting reached on in years following that. Moss hasn't just changed how teams play D every Sunday vs. his team. he changed the outlook a lot of teams have on drafting troubled players as well.
3. So Moss is now moving outdoors, big deal. I laugh every time I hear this now. Boy talk about reaching for reasons to bash a guy. I didn't hear anyone clammering about how TO moved form the comfy confines of San Fran to the wintery cold Philly area. A much worse change IMO than simply moving from a dome to one of the best weather cities in America. Its not like he is moving to GB or NE where it will be raining and snowy a lot of the time. Its Oak, Cali! Yeah all that sunshine and warm weather is really going to slow Moss down I'll bet.
It's not about the turf. It is about air and wind. SF is far from comfy with all the swirling winds. Why do you think the west coast offense works so well? Because the short passes don't get caught up in the wind like 50 yard bombs. Jerry Rice became the great WR he is from YAC, not from throwing it up in the air and jumping for it. Now I don't know the conditions in Oak but I'm sure if someone did an analysis of how well Moss does outdoors compared to indoors you would find that he's much better indoors. He'll eventually adjust to the outdoor conditions but it won't be the same as the domes.
Again I've never knocked Moss' talent, I just feel that Owens has plenty to offer that would induce people to choose him over Moss.
Maybe you should simply read Booby Bowden's book. There is a small but very telling portion of it on Randy Moss. It tells a very different story than what a lot of people THINK they know about the guy.
You might be right about the wind not being a problem in Oak, but playing the majority of games outdoors compared to indoors does make a difference. Maybe not significant but enough of an impact to effect a long pass. I bet that if you look at Moss' stats that he was better indoors than he was outdoors. There's no doubt about that.Also 75% might be accurate as I've already stated that Moss is more talented, but that's not the only thing that GMs look for. I'm sure if GMs evaluated Jerry Rice and Randy Moss solely on talent, then they would choose Moss over Rice as well because Rice never had the physical talents that Moss has.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
As good as B. Wallace is and how hard he works, I think I will take a league MVP, a playoff MVP, with multiple NBA championships 100 out of 100 times.back-to-back defensive player of the year awards and a championship ring
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Now this comparison becomes very interesting. This is were I should see people debating about things. Moss over Owens is easy. But if you had to choose between Moss and Rice just on talent level alone, Moss may win here as well.
Your right, if Moss can keep up his pace and stay healthy, then comparisons to Rice will be well deserved. But Moss over Owens is not as easy as everyone says it is. Moss was instantly good in the NFL, while Owens took a few years to develop which is normal. Moss is not normal so that's why he has the edge of Owens. But if you look at the last 5 years of both Owens and Moss, you'll see that they are very even statistically. Owens: 73 gms, 6465yds, 447rec, 65tdsMoss: 77gms, 6416yds, 425rec, 62tds, So Owens is statistically on level terms with Moss over the last 5 years with alligator arms, less talent, inferior speed, bad route running, etc. All I'm saying is that it is not a slam dunk to proclaim Moss the greatest WR ever.You can even include Marvin Harrison into the discussion who probably has better stats than both Moss and Owens for the last 5 years. So it's debatable to say that Moss is the best WR of even today. Talent wise you can say whatever you want but statistically it shows otherwise.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Ok let's play the Stats Game.......For Owens we will even take away his first 2 years which were very low; they were in his rookie year 520 yds and 4 TD's and in his second year 936 yds and 8 TD's
So let us look at the last 7 years of both of their Careers, this means we will be taking Moss's rookie year into affect. Can Owens claim to having a rookie year of 1313 yds and 17 TD's???? and be backed that up with 1413 yds and 11 TD's in his second year.
So here is the last 7 years for the two:
Owens 8316 yds and 83 TD's
and for
Moss (remember including his rookie year in the NFL which should be statistically low but man he is good)
9142 yds and 90 TD's
That is 800 more yard and 7 more TD's for Moss, that is not even close. And by the time their careers are done it will be way worst.
If you want to do avg's over career which is very fair this is easily Moss:
Owens 1085 yds a year.... and 10 TD's a year
vs
Moss 1306 yds per year and 12 TD's a year almost 13.
So you were saying?????
In Fact, Harrison's numbers are closer:
Avg's 1242 yds a year and 10 TD's a game.
Remember though I don't think Harrison has missed time in a season due to injury like Moss had to this year. And of course not taking anything away from Harrison but he does have arguably the best statistically throwing QB of all time throwing to him.
Owens and Harrison are great BUT one step up you have
Moss who is PHENOMINAL!
And I am not a Moss fan at all, but the guy is an amazing reciever and should get credit being the best of his time and will arguably be one of the best of all time.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
The last 5 years seems more relevant than 7 years.Is what Owens did in 1998 very valuable to this conversation of who is a better WR at thsi point in time. Not really.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Another note for those of you that can't see that Moss is a proven winner and wants to win as well: T. Owens was apart of 3 losing seasons in San Francisco. So in 9 of his years he was apart of 3 losing teams. If he was to stay with San Fran this year it would have been 4 losing seasons, but he jumped ship to the 2nd best team in the league.R. Moss has been apart of only 2 losing seasons in Minnesota. So that is 2 out of 7 years. Those of you that can't see he is a proven winner and that Moss makes his team that much better are blind. They are both winners and both make there teams better so you can't say Owens is better in that aspect. We will see how much better Moss makes Oak, and how much worst Minny is without Moss. Remember Minny had to win many of those years on the backs of R. Moss and their offense.
Last edited by a moderator:
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Owens tries his ### off every single play and Moss does no such thing. If Moss wanted to win so bad, don't you think he would try a little harder.One more losing season in an extra 2 seasons over Moss makes Moss a better winner?
You could say that Owens is so much of a winner that he wanted get out of San Fran anyway he could to go and sign with a team for a chacen of a Super Bowl. That seems like he relly wants to win to me.
Your argument makes no sense to me.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
R. Moss wants to win. He may do some dumb things but when he is on the field he runs his routes, he puts up stats, he blocks, the guy wants to win. You can't question that. He may walk off the field early which is bad attitude but it does not mean he does not want to win, it means he has an attitude problem. Unless you statisticall know for sure and have clips to back up how many plays he is taking off then you are just saying things that others have said. Moss says some dumb things like I will play when I want to and that sort of thing but when he is on the field he wants to win!
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
He is known for taking plays off. That seems like he wants to win to you. Weird.
Last edited by a moderator:
I can't argue the stats over their entire careers. You win there. As I've already stated he impacted the game immediately which cannot be argued about Owens or Harrison. But Owens and Harrison have closed the gap between the best WR in the game in the last 5 years which is a pretty big sample size.If Moss is phenomenonally better than Harrison and Owens, then he should have been phenomenonally statistically better than them over the last five years, which he wasn't. He wasn't even marginally better than them in the last 5 years. So he can't be argued as the clear cut best WR of the game today.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I am not saying Moss is a better winner then Owens, I am and was trying to point out that Moss wants to win just as badly as Owens and every other player and the teams he has played for have got winning seasons because of him.Owens tries his ### off every single play and Moss does no such thing. If Moss wanted to win so bad, don't you think he would try a little harder.One more losing season in an extra 2 seasons over Moss makes Moss a better winner?
You could say that Owens is so much of a winner that he wanted get out of San Fran anyway he could to go and sign with a team for a chacen of a Super Bowl. That seems like he relly wants to win to me.
Your argument makes no sense to me.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
So who is the best RB in the game right now Lipster the guy with the most skill and the one that changes defenses more then any other RB???? The answer is easy it is LT. And his stats are not even the best.
So when you ask who is the best WR in the game?
The answer should be easy. Randy Moss and his stats are the best.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
You contradicted your entire argument in that post.You say stats don't matter, but then say Moss has the best stats.
Last edited by a moderator:
Kai's Hero
Footballguy
Muhsin Muhammad is better than both!! 
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: The answer is not easy. You can make arguments for plenty of rb's being elite today. Do you discount Priest Holmes just because he has the better offensive line? He was spectacular when healthy. Then you have Shaun Alexander who's been amazingly consistent over the last few years, with plenty of yards and TD's. Fred Taylor probably has the most talent physically but he doesn't have the stats. The lifespan of a rb is so short that the top Rb's change every year. So LT is not a clear cut top RB. He is the general consensus top RB but it doesn't put him head and shoulders above the others. The top 3 WR's have remained the top 3 for years now. And to say that Moss is soooo much better than Harrison and Owens cannot be objectively proven.You contradicted your entire argument in that post.You say stats don't matter, but then say Moss has the best stats.
BTW, I don't exactly like Owens that much since he left the 49ers. I hate the friggin ******* and hope I'm totally wrong about him and I pray to God that he stinks it up in Philly.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
I am not saying Owens is bad.Also by the stats thing Friday, I was trying to say that even if someone had better stats then Moss this year or even next year it would not make them better then him at this point in his career. The underline fact that Moss is known as the greates WR in the NFL is probably what 75% of the population would say. And then the other 25 % would debate about Owens, Harrison etc.
gman8343
What would Lemmy do?
I hear you. I'm really responding to the initial post, where the guy specifically stated he couldn't hold Moss' jock strap. That's ridiculous to me. I have no problem if you think Moss is better, he probably is, he definately is in natural talent (though Owens is by far the best WR in the open field IMO, he breaks tackles like a beast), but the gap isn't that wide.
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
Then why are you trying to use stats to prove your point that Moss is the best? It makes no sense why you would compare each other's stats and say Moss is better because of the better stats and then say the player with the best stats is not necessarily the best in a post about 10 mintues later. You are contradicting yourself.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Yes, agreed, I did cotradict myself. I had initially not even wanted to get into the stats debate because Moss is a better skilled reciever without the stats. But Lipster got the stats involved so I had no choice. It was somewhat confusing.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
The only objective way someonce can try and determine the best all around player at his position is try and assume how he would do if you substitute him into any starting line up in the NFL. This is where LT seperates himself from the other RB's. If you put LT in KC's system he gets numbers of equal value to Priest or even surpasses them, but, if you put Priest in San Diego does he do what LT did? and I think the obvious answer is no. And the same thing could be said for SA. LT has proven to be great with a bad team and a good team. Therefore we can assume he is the best RB playing right now.The same argument I believe holds true for Moss. You can put Moss into any system and because of his athletic ability and no matter who the QB is you can just throw it up there and he can go and get at. He does not need to lean on a system as much as other recievers.:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: The answer is not easy. You can make arguments for plenty of rb's being elite today. Do you discount Priest Holmes just because he has the better offensive line? He was spectacular when healthy. Then you have Shaun Alexander who's been amazingly consistent over the last few years, with plenty of yards and TD's. Fred Taylor probably has the most talent physically but he doesn't have the stats. The lifespan of a rb is so short that the top Rb's change every year. So LT is not a clear cut top RB. He is the general consensus top RB but it doesn't put him head and shoulders above the others. The top 3 WR's have remained the top 3 for years now. And to say that Moss is soooo much better than Harrison and Owens cannot be objectively proven.You contradicted your entire argument in that post.You say stats don't matter, but then say Moss has the best stats.
BTW, I don't exactly like Owens that much since he left the 49ers. I hate the friggin ******* and hope I'm totally wrong about him and I pray to God that he stinks it up in Philly.
The argument is there with Owens as well, but Moss would more then likely transfer into any system or team and be more dominanat then any other player at his position.
Haha, tricked ya. Objectively it cannot be proven that anyone is better or best or greatest. It is only of your opinion of who is the best, so subjectively you assumptions could be right, but not objectively.
Also, I don't know why you need to bring RB's into this discussion to argue your points. The beauty of debating the big 3 WR's is that they are all in similar situations. Good offenses, good QB's, great stats over a period of time. Therefore you can objectively argue one way or the other and back them up with stats. You can't do that with RB's. You base all your facts with assumptions like offensive lines. You are assuming that if you put LT behind the KC line that he will duplicate or better the factual results that have placed in the history books already. That's like the Emmit Smith vs Barry Sanders debate. This cannot be proven in any way. If you base your argument based on stats, than you've already stated that LT does not win. If you base your arguments on talent than who the hell knows who the best is if they are in different situations? With the big 3 WR's you can clearly prove that over a certain time period (which I used 5 years) that one player does not distinguish himself from the others. That's why I used stats. So objectively you cannot say that Moss is clearly better than Owens or Harrison is clearly better than Moss. They are all very close in that regard. Why does Moss get placed on his own pedestal if he hasn't been able to separate himself from the others in the last 5 years? If he was that much better than the others in his first two years than shouldn't he be that much better in the remaining 5 years? Like I've stated before, Owens and Harrison have closed the gap with less talent. Something had to have happened that allowed the gap to close. Maybe Hard Work? Desire? Heart? Determination? Practice?So if you feel that the Rice vs Moss debate more worthy than the current WR debate, then I'll state another argument in that Rice was consistently the best WR of his day from year to year. Moss has not. In stats for you, Rice finished the #1 WR in yards and TD's 6 times (never lower than 5th) in his first 10 years. Moss has never finished #1 in yards and 3 out 7 years at #1 for TD's. This is no debate at all.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
How has Rice done over the last 5 years though?? :rotflmao:Haha, tricked ya. Objectively it cannot be proven that anyone is better or best or greatest. It is only of your opinion of who is the best, so subjectively you assumptions could be right, but not objectively.
With the big 3 WR's you can clearly prove that over a certain time period (which I used 5 years) that one player does not distinguish himself from the others. That's why I used stats. So objectively you cannot say that Moss is clearly better than Owens or Harrison is clearly better than Moss. They are all very close in that regard. Why does Moss get placed on his own pedestal if he hasn't been able to separate himself from the others in the last 5 years? If he was that much better than the others in his first two years than shouldn't he be that much better in the remaining 5 years? Like I've stated before, Owens and Harrison have closed the gap with less talent. Something had to have happened that allowed the gap to close. Maybe Hard Work? Desire? Heart? Determination? Practice?
So if you feel that the Rice vs Moss debate more worthy than the current WR debate, then I'll state another argument in that Rice was consistently the best WR of his day from year to year. Moss has not. In stats for you, Rice finished the #1 WR in yards and TD's 6 times (never lower than 5th) in his first 10 years. Moss has never finished #1 in yards and 3 out 7 years at #1 for TD's. This is no debate at all.
What????? What kind of comeback is this??? If you take Rice in his first 7 years he clearly established himself as the best WR during that time period. If you take Moss and his 7 years, you have Marvin Harrison who has outproduced Moss during those 7 years.How has Rice done over the last 5 years though?? :rotflmao:Haha, tricked ya. Objectively it cannot be proven that anyone is better or best or greatest. It is only of your opinion of who is the best, so subjectively you assumptions could be right, but not objectively.
With the big 3 WR's you can clearly prove that over a certain time period (which I used 5 years) that one player does not distinguish himself from the others. That's why I used stats. So objectively you cannot say that Moss is clearly better than Owens or Harrison is clearly better than Moss. They are all very close in that regard. Why does Moss get placed on his own pedestal if he hasn't been able to separate himself from the others in the last 5 years? If he was that much better than the others in his first two years than shouldn't he be that much better in the remaining 5 years? Like I've stated before, Owens and Harrison have closed the gap with less talent. Something had to have happened that allowed the gap to close. Maybe Hard Work? Desire? Heart? Determination? Practice?
So if you feel that the Rice vs Moss debate more worthy than the current WR debate, then I'll state another argument in that Rice was consistently the best WR of his day from year to year. Moss has not. In stats for you, Rice finished the #1 WR in yards and TD's 6 times (never lower than 5th) in his first 10 years. Moss has never finished #1 in yards and 3 out 7 years at #1 for TD's. This is no debate at all.
Last edited by a moderator:
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
A very comedic one.What????? What kind of comeback is this???How has Rice done over the last 5 years though?? :rotflmao:Haha, tricked ya. Objectively it cannot be proven that anyone is better or best or greatest. It is only of your opinion of who is the best, so subjectively you assumptions could be right, but not objectively.
With the big 3 WR's you can clearly prove that over a certain time period (which I used 5 years) that one player does not distinguish himself from the others. That's why I used stats. So objectively you cannot say that Moss is clearly better than Owens or Harrison is clearly better than Moss. They are all very close in that regard. Why does Moss get placed on his own pedestal if he hasn't been able to separate himself from the others in the last 5 years? If he was that much better than the others in his first two years than shouldn't he be that much better in the remaining 5 years? Like I've stated before, Owens and Harrison have closed the gap with less talent. Something had to have happened that allowed the gap to close. Maybe Hard Work? Desire? Heart? Determination? Practice?
So if you feel that the Rice vs Moss debate more worthy than the current WR debate, then I'll state another argument in that Rice was consistently the best WR of his day from year to year. Moss has not. In stats for you, Rice finished the #1 WR in yards and TD's 6 times (never lower than 5th) in his first 10 years. Moss has never finished #1 in yards and 3 out 7 years at #1 for TD's. This is no debate at all.
Chaka
Footballguy
This topic is still hot huh?Objectivism, subjectivism, statistics, three/five/seven year trends, insults...whatever.Why can't people accept reality? No WR causes more hair loss and sleepless nights for defensive coordinators than Randy Moss. It's a fact, ask around. 
No WR causes more hair loss and sleepless nights for defensive coordinators than Randy Moss. It's a fact, ask around.
Last edited by a moderator:
jurb26
Footballguy
Boy the Moss haters are funny. :rotflmao: Yeah Moss doesn't want to win. OK, then why hasn't the guy simply retired already. He has plenty of money, would still be regarded as one of the best WRs ever to play even if he retired today. The media hounds him more than any other player in the game. Seems for someone who doesn't really care about football or winning, there is little to stick around for. I'm confused. TO is sick of loosing in SF and he throws a childish fit that not only alienates his teamates, but actually disrespects his QB and coach, let alone the res of the team. Demands trade to a contender and cries till he gets it. He is a "winner" because of it. A true competitor.Moss in the same way gets fed up with loosing in Minn and makes a very childish and selfish desicion to walk off the field. Clearly an act that was made out of frustration with LOOSING. He on the other hand does not care about winning though. :rotflmao: Does nobody else see a relation to these actions?Both guys do selfish and stupid things. Both are far from PC. One thing that both are NOT though is happy loosing. Anyone who thinks other wise simply needs to get a clue.
:rotflmao: Does nobody else see a relation to these actions?Both guys do selfish and stupid things. Both are far from PC. One thing that both are NOT though is happy loosing. Anyone who thinks other wise simply needs to get a clue. 
BlueOnion
Footballguy
There is no substitute for sub 4.2 speed, a 6'4 frame and amazing leaping ability. He is the only player ever to be able to take a play off but still take 3 defensive players out of the play by doing nothing. Unbelievable.You can say he has a bad attitude, doesn't go hard every play, has a poor work ethic. But when he lines up wide he still has 4.2 speed and a big 6'4 frame. As a defensive coordinator you have to respect his natural ability.And just like Shaq...Shaq is a pretty worthless basketball player when it comes to actual skill...but no matter what you think of him, he is still 7'1 and 345 pounds.
BlueOnion
Footballguy
I am not saying Ben Wallace is a bum, but if you want to compare Ben Wallace's track record against Shaq's...well I don't know them but I am pretty sure Shaq has 3 NBA rings and is the default MVP every year.Work ethic can only take you so far in some sports. At some point though, you have to recognize when somebody has clearly been given superior gifts.back-to-back defensive player of the year awards and a championship ring
Defensive coordinators play Randy Moss the same way they play every other elite WR in the league. They put their best CB on them. They double team that WR. They try to jam him at the line and put a safety behind to cover the deep pass. He beats them, the coordinators cry. Do they not cry when Harrison blows by the safety for a 50yard catch and run? Do they not cry when Owens takes a slant pass to the endzone? They all give the coordinators fits when they gameplan. I agree Moss gives them more fits but not much more. Even Plaxico Burress get double teamedThe only difference that puts Moss clearly ahead is at the goalline. You can't stop him there. .This topic is still hot huh?
Objectivism, subjectivism, statistics, three/five/seven year trends, insults...whatever.
Why can't people accept reality?
Yes Moss is the better WR, I've already stated that many times, but Owens and Harrison are very close to him in terms of producing on the field and having coordinators gameplan for them. They make up for their deficiencies in talent in other ways.
And I'm not just a Moss hater. I hate both Moss and Owens equally. The more I think about these guys, the more I hate them. But I still respect their abilities.
Last edited by a moderator:
