Muslims in NYC Planning to Build Second Mosque Near Ground Zero (1 Viewer)

[Phurfur]

"When will my fellow USAmericans finally grok this simple analogy?: Al-Qaeda is to Islam as the Ku Klux Klan is to Christian Protestantism." --Bradley Kuhn

This is not even close to true. The KKK was not a religious branch of Christianity and did not kill for god.I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

 

[flufhed]

I don't have the energy, but could oone of you please pay attention to Mongo, and respond to one of his 50+ fishing/trolling posts? He is over there jumping up and down waving his arms around. I'm starting to feel sorry for him.

 

[timschochet]

It's the things like their reaction to Salman Rushdie, the mohammad cartoon, the 70 (72) virgins, honor killings, or the intolerance shown to other religions in muslim dominated countries. Is it a capital offense anywhere in the world to hand someone a Quaran? There are plenty of places where it would cost your life to hand a muslim a bible. These aren't things that happend several hundred years ago like the crusades. This crap is happening now.

It's ultimately that weakness of muslims at their core, their insecurity in their own beliefs that feed their need to destroy other religions. Don't even get me started on their treatment of women.

People confuse world-wide islam with Azir the guy that fixes the copier. Hey, that guy Azir is pretty cool and he's a muslim. Muslims that were not born in America were born into a religious slavery that they cannot renounce without being shunned (or worse). We have a religious freedom here that's unparalleled in the world. But American muslms are not the majority of muslims world wide....and the methods used to promote islam in the rest of the world are very cultish indeed.

Overall, it's a simple google search ("is islam a cult?" for example) that can provide you with a deeper understanding of why islam should be considered a cult.

None of the items you mentioned here are unique to Islam. Christianity has an equal, if not worse, record of intolerance and horrific events- only not recently. But as short a time as less than 100 years ago, I could easily write about Christianity, as you do about Islam:It's ultimately that weakness of Christians at their core, their insecurity in their own beliefs that feed their need to destroy other religions.

Again, your use of the word "cult" to describe Islam is not only incorrect, it represents a mindset that regards this religion, as a whole, as our enemy. So long as you and others like you think this way America is in deep trouble, IMO. You claim to be well-informed on this issue, but I'm inclined to think you aren't; you have relied on anecdotal evidence and the most hateful sort of rhetoric to back up your claims.

 

[timschochet]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

 

[Jewell]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

 

[mad sweeney]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

 

[Jewell]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

Respect for the deceased. All those stated goals are being taught in mosques throughout America, and can be taught a few blocks away.

 

[Phurfur]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

You are right and I will answer No!I see radial Muslims and Muslims, I don't know who came up with this moderate crap.My opinion of Muslims has changed over this issue.They're "stickin' it" to America.

 

[mad sweeney]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

Respect for the deceased. All those stated goals are being taught in mosques throughout America, and can be taught a few blocks away.

It is a few blocks away.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I have drawn my conclusions of these so called moderate Muslims on how they are handling this issue. They are "stickin' it" to America and loving every minute of it.

I'll ask you the same question I asked Jewell earlier, Phurfur: What is, in your mind, a moderate Muslim? Does the term even exist for you, other than theoretically?

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

Respect for the deceased. All those stated goals are being taught in mosques throughout America, and can be taught a few blocks away.

This is so arbitrary- are you saying that you would be fine with it 5 blocks from ground zero instead of 2?

 

[mad sweeney]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

Respect for the deceased. All those stated goals are being taught in mosques throughout America, and can be taught a few blocks away.

This is so arbitrary- are you saying that you would be fine with it 5 blocks from ground zero instead of 2?

It's not arbitrary, it's Canarditrary!!!

 

[Jewell]

And how does this apply to your objection of the Plaza 51, being that it's stated goal is to produce moderate Muslims and update the teachings of the Koran to modern American society?

Respect for the deceased. All those stated goals are being taught in mosques throughout America, and can be taught a few blocks away.

This is so arbitrary- are you saying that you would be fine with it 5 blocks from ground zero instead of 2?

Yes, that's what I'm saying.Arbitrary numbers as basis for policy is part of our culture and law. It's illegal to drink at 20, but it's legal to drink at 21. It's illegal to engage in sex with a 15 year old, but it's legal to sleep with an 18 year old. You can't sell drugs within a certain distance from a school without a penalty enhancer being tacked onto your crime, and you can't smoke in certain areas within x feet of a public building. These are all arbitrary numbers. That's what we do.

 

[Woogie Lee]

Also doesn't this just break down to whether or not you 100% believe in freedom of religion or not? If you support that, this is a non-issue and if you are completely against the mosque you are also seemingly against this principle.

I don't see this as a freedom of religion issue, and most people I see supporting it are pretty agnostic towards religion. I am for freedom of religion, but I don't see how it applies. First the Constitution does not guarantee you can build a religious site where ever you wish. And even if it did, this is supposedly not even a religious building, but a cultural center. So that arguement is a complete zero in this case.

If it's not a religious thing then what's the opposition? The hijackers were religious zealots who killed themselves for their God as religious martyrs. If this isn't a religious building then why would it be compared to those religious zealots?

Let's be honest....their religion kind of tells them to kick some infidel ###. Lets not lose sight of how they are supposed to deal with infidels (those that *gasp* aren't muslim)

Let's be honest....this is very poor attempt at generalizing a religion which you really don't know anything about.

 

[Christo]

The key to winning the battle against Islamic fundamentalism is to promote moderate Muslims. We fail to do so at our peril.

I don't even know what this means.

I know. It shows.

Given your proclivity for diarrhea of the keyboard, your curt response betrays your lack of understanding as well.

Classy, Christo. Very classy.And I give you curt responses because you don't deserve anymore. You never explore any of these issues in detail. You make a quick statement and then take great enjoyment in responding to criticisms with equally curt (and usually acid) remarks (sometimes very witty though). Your persona here is of someone who is very anti-intellectual and proud of it (though I doubt that really what you're like.)

Anti-intellectual? Sorry, but my unwillingness to "explore" some issues in detail with you doesn't make me anti-intellectual. It just means I don't think the issue is worth exploring any further because you have a tendency to beat it to death. As I said, given that tendency and your unwillingness to even try to explain what you mean by the statement, it leads me to believe one of two things is going on--(1) you're not really sure what you meant, or (2) even if you do know, you're not really sure you're right.

 

[datonn]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

 

[oneohh]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

Very nice. B. Damn.

 

[Statorama]

None of the items you mentioned here are unique to Islam. Christianity has an equal, if not worse, record of intolerance and horrific events- only not recently.

But that's the thing. Aren't we allegedly living in an era of enlightenment? Christians aren't stoning women because they show some ankle. The stuff that went on with the crusades was a shameful bastardization of the bible by the roman catholic church back in the days when people killed goats to make it rain. With 500 years of not killing people because they belong to a different religion under their belt, I'm going to give Christians a break....and a bunch of you people need to expand your reading on the subject. There are multiple viewpoints that you would do well to review.

 

[Jewell]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

You present me with two options that I don't feel are accurate summations of the positions, and then you ask me to accept one without qualification. You also ask me to look at the situation in a vacuum and only view it in terms of how it would affect moderate Muslims. There are other competing interests. Since your question isn't exactly fair, I'll refrain from answering it and save you the "long reply".

 

[datonn]

You present me with two options that I don't feel are accurate summations of the positions, and then you ask me to accept one without qualification. You also ask me to look at the situation in a vacuum and only view it in terms of how it would affect moderate Muslims. There are other competing interests. Since your question isn't exactly fair, I'll refrain from answering it and save you the "long reply".

I'll interpret that as a reluctant "B" then.

 

[Jewell]

You present me with two options that I don't feel are accurate summations of the positions, and then you ask me to accept one without qualification. You also ask me to look at the situation in a vacuum and only view it in terms of how it would affect moderate Muslims. There are other competing interests. Since your question isn't exactly fair, I'll refrain from answering it and save you the "long reply".

I'll interpret that as a reluctant "B" then.

That doesn't really surprise me. You've already interpreted me as a bigot despite a mountain of posts in this thread that suggest otherwise. What's one more position being perverted?

 

[Phurfur]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

C. Muslims understand the feeling of the victim's families and friends along with 65% of Americans and build at another location.

 

[oneohh]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

 

[CBusAlex]

The risk (at it's worst) is that we make the United States more susceptible to an inside attack, and we compromise the very ideal of "religious tolerance" that we seek to protect. If our stated goal is religious freedom for all we potentially could be welcoming in a branch of a religion that has been the greatest suppressor of religious freedom throughout the world. Once again, risk "at it's worst" before I get accused of being a bigot. The probaility is slim, but there's still a probability.

Even if this guy is a radical muslim bent on destroying all of America, how would allowing him to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero put us more at risk of an attack than a mosque in Brooklyn or Camden or Kansas City? For that matter, how would it put us more at risk than not letting him build a mosque at all?

 

[datonn]

I'll interpret that as a reluctant "B" then.

That doesn't really surprise me. You've already interpreted me as a bigot despite a mountain of posts in this thread that suggest otherwise. What's one more position being perverted?

Wow...defensive much?! I'm not interpreting you as being a bigot. I'm interpreting you as being incorrect and confused. There is a giant difference. You have to admit, however, that the argument against the mosque (community/prayer center) loses steam when one starts to look at the position(s) under the microscope, right?

1. Mosque (community/prayer center) is too close to the WTC site...showing an insensitivity towards families of those killed/injured in 9/11. Why?

2. Because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11. Slippery, SLIPPERY slope!

Now, how are people supposed to interpret that? Not you or what you think. What you and I individually think is moot. From a "hearts and minds" perspective, what does that position communicate to the rest of the planet (about 15-20% of whom are Muslim) about Average Joe American's view and attitude toward Islam?

I'll tell you what I think it communicates...that your average American is:

A. Seriously ignorant about the way a majority of Muslims interpret the Koran, and how they live their lives as a result.

B. A bit bigoted and/or prejudice toward Muslims.

C. AFRAID. Scared out of their pants, and getting angry/defensive/militant as an almost involuntary defense mechanism.

So again...what does that communicate about your "average" American to the rest of the world? That the United States is not nearly as powerful and/or the oasis for freedom and democracy as it often is portrayed (and wants to be viewed as by the rest of the world...so that others will "see the light" and try and emulate our better model). Al-Qaeda cannot touch us with a ten-foot pole if we don't let them in a "macro" sense. They can kill a few dozen people here or a few hundred/thousand people there. However, they don't have 1% of the power they need to destroy our nation of 300+ million. The only group powerful enough to destroy the United States without also destroying the rest of the planet around them is? The United States of America. And since 9/11, given how polarized our nation has continually become, we're well on our way.

I've said it before in this thread. The wonderful thing about America is that we are all free to be completely and utterly wrong. You can believe that Cyborg rabbits from the planet JimmyJohn-Zeda 47 seeded Earth with dandelions six minutes ago...and that those dandelions are what ultimately lead to human life (AKA the Earth is only six minutes old)...and if you can find other people who share your beliefs, you can organize a church, wear robes and sing the theme to Happy Days while passing around the offering plate.

 

[timschochet]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

This is the best post in this entire thread. I wish I had written it; I've been trying to make the same point over and over, but I am nowhere near either as eloquent nor succint as you have been here. Well done.

 

[bakes]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

 

[Phurfur]

The risk (at it's worst) is that we make the United States more susceptible to an inside attack, and we compromise the very ideal of "religious tolerance" that we seek to protect. If our stated goal is religious freedom for all we potentially could be welcoming in a branch of a religion that has been the greatest suppressor of religious freedom throughout the world. Once again, risk "at it's worst" before I get accused of being a bigot. The probaility is slim, but there's still a probability.

Even if this guy is a radical muslim bent on destroying all of America, how would allowing him to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero put us more at risk of an attack than a mosque in Brooklyn or Camden or Kansas City? For that matter, how would it put us more at risk than not letting him build a mosque at all?

They are "stickin' it" to America.

 

[Phurfur]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others. "Stickin' it"

 

[ScottyFargo]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others. "Stickin' it"

And the existing mosque that is 4 blocks away from ground zero... is it "Stickin' it"?

 

[bakes]

The risk (at it's worst) is that we make the United States more susceptible to an inside attack, and we compromise the very ideal of "religious tolerance" that we seek to protect. If our stated goal is religious freedom for all we potentially could be welcoming in a branch of a religion that has been the greatest suppressor of religious freedom throughout the world. Once again, risk "at it's worst" before I get accused of being a bigot. The probaility is slim, but there's still a probability.

Even if this guy is a radical muslim bent on destroying all of America, how would allowing him to build a mosque two blocks from ground zero put us more at risk of an attack than a mosque in Brooklyn or Camden or Kansas City? For that matter, how would it put us more at risk than not letting him build a mosque at all?

It wouldn't, but don't let that get in the way of their xenophobic paranoia.

 

[bakes]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others.

"Stickin' it"

That goes both ways as well.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Ockham's Razor.

Do you think:

A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

 

[Jewell]

Wow...defensive much?!

Yeah, well, I wouldn't have to be defensive if people just stopped imputing the more radical positions of Mongol and Phurfur onto me. You guys go ape-#### when there's a hint of imputing what radical Muslims think onto more moderate Muslims, but have no problem imputing the position of more radical "mosque" opponents onto a more moderate opponent like myself. I judge each Muslim but what they communicate, and you're not judging me by what I communicate. To be fair, Tim, Scotty Fargo, and a few others I'm forgetting have been good about not doing that. Some haven't. I'm usually a pretty light-hearted dude. I just don't like double standards and being labeled something I'm not. I don't mean any ill-will to anybody. Shalom.

 

[badmojo1006]

Stat, I like you. I think you are generally good, well meaning guy, and though I disagree with you quite a bit (especially on social issues) I have always found your commentary to be incisive and thoughtful. So I'm really shocked by some of your responses on this issue. You are making what I believe to be incredibly simplistic, incredibly prejudiced comments about the Muslim religion. You seem to want to group all believers in Islam as either terrorists or terrorist supporters. You've got to know it's an extremist position that you're spouting, and any Muslim reading this would regard you as incredibly bigoted.

I'm just too well informed on the history of their cult. You're a sharp guy, you know how Muhammad started and what he evolved into. Muslims are taught to follow his example. Islam has a long way to regain my respect. The Catholic church does too for the way it shopped around it's infamous priests.If I'm considered bigoted for not turning a blind eye to the checkered history of islam, then so be it.

OK then I need your definition of a cult. 1.5 billion people in a cult

 

[perry147]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

Under our current Constitution you can not stop it.Workers not wanting to build it also have their right to not work on it, but I wonder how people would react if it was a Jewish Temple were treated the same way? “If you ##### us, do we not bleed? If you tickle us, do we not laugh? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, do we not revenge?” - Shakespeare

 

[Woogie Lee]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others.

"Stickin' it"

That goes both ways as well.

Do you go both ways?

 

[datonn]

entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

Rectus. I was referring to Ockham's Razor in the sense of: "the simplest explanation is usually the correct one." A bit of an over-simplified view of the principle to make what I hope was a point that struck a chord with a few people, but hey...I'm entitled.

 

[Phurfur]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others.

"Stickin' it"

That goes both ways as well.

Why is it so important to Muslims to have the Mosque there?

 

[Woogie Lee]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

This goes both ways. So a mosque somewhere else won't accomplish the Islam goal?It's about tolerence and understanding the feeling of others.

"Stickin' it"

That goes both ways as well.

Why is it so important to Muslims to have the Mosque there?

Which ones?

 

[mad sweeney]

A moderate Muslim is a Muslim who realizes that some sections of The Koran as taught by some Imams violate human rights and may stand in opposition to the law of the land where they reside. A moderate Muslim then chooses not to abide by those particular teachings. There are millions of Muslims that fit this bill. Unfortunately, we find ourselves in a struggle with Radical Muslims who wish to sway them toward their interpretation of The Koran and Hadith.

And that bolded sentence is the crux of the argument for a LOT of people on the other side of the fence. Ockham's Razor. Do you think:A. Allowing a mosque (prayer center, really) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site will sway more moderate Muslims to radical Islam because of the show of power Al-Qaeda made when making those attacks? Or do you think...

B. Not allowing a mosque (prayer center) to be built a couple blocks from the World Trade Center site when they have all the necessary property ownership rights and zoning/permits, simply because 19 Muslims were responsible for the attacks of 9/11, will sway more moderate Muslims toward radical Islam once they realize that "not all men are created equal" in the United States...and freedom of religion only applies to a few?

A or B. No need for a long reply or any links to articles. Simply which you believe to be the more likely scenario. Hearts and minds...hearts and minds...

C. Muslims understand the feeling of the victim's families and friends along with 65% of Americans and build at another location.

And in doing so help reinforce the notion that the Islam of the hijackers is the same Islam they and all other Muslims believe in.

 

[mad sweeney]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this mosque/cc has any ties to Al Qaeda ("they" in your post).Other than, of course, being Muslim.

 

[mad sweeney]

Wow...defensive much?!

Yeah, well, I wouldn't have to be defensive if people just stopped imputing the more radical positions of Mongol and Phurfur onto me. You guys go ape-#### when there's a hint of imputing what radical Muslims think onto more moderate Muslims, but have no problem imputing the position of more radical "mosque" opponents onto a more moderate opponent like myself. I judge each Muslim but what they communicate, and you're not judging me by what I communicate. To be fair, Tim, Scotty Fargo, and a few others I'm forgetting have been good about not doing that. Some haven't. I'm usually a pretty light-hearted dude. I just don't like double standards and being labeled something I'm not. I don't mean any ill-will to anybody. Shalom.

Did you ever get around to imputing where I told you you should leave the board as you accused me of doing?

 

[timschochet]

None of the items you mentioned here are unique to Islam. Christianity has an equal, if not worse, record of intolerance and horrific events- only not recently.

But that's the thing. Aren't we allegedly living in an era of enlightenment? Christians aren't stoning women because they show some ankle. The stuff that went on with the crusades was a shameful bastardization of the bible by the roman catholic church back in the days when people killed goats to make it rain. With 500 years of not killing people because they belong to a different religion under their belt, I'm going to give Christians a break....and a bunch of you people need to expand your reading on the subject. There are multiple viewpoints that you would do well to review.

As someone whose grandparents suffered greatly at the hands of the Russian Orthodox Church (as did all Jews who lived in Russia during the first few decades of the 20th century) I can assure you that it hasn't been 500 years. Even more recent examples would include the massacre of Palestinians by Lebanese Christians at Sabra and Chantilla in the early 1980s, and the ethnic cleansing of the former Yugoslavia against Muslims by Christians in the late 1990s. In each of these cases, non-Christians were killed by Christians in the name of Christianity, including innocent women and children. The massacres at Sabra were preceded by rape and torture, as well. Perhaps you are the one who needs to expand your reading on this subject, since your post indicates you are simply not aware of these well documented events.

 

[oneohh]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this mosque/cc has any ties to Al Qaeda ("they" in your post).Other than, of course, being Muslim.

What's your problem? Are you the president of the mistreated Arabs of America? Or maybe something a little less glamorous, like the welfare division? You know, they - people in general. I don't have to agree with any of your misguided entitlement anger to be able to agree that this is a bad idea. And this, since you're so inept at deciphering the object of informal pronouns, refers to the idea that the United States government would have any say in this decision whatsoever. You don't know any better than anyone else who is or isn't behind this mosque.

 

[Jewell]

Did you ever get around to imputing where I told you you should leave the board as you accused me of doing?

So are the building of mosques nationwide not testament to American values of equality and goodness, which flies in the face of what the terrorists were trying to accomplish?

It doesn't fly in the face of what the terrorists were trying to accomplish. Mosques throughout the U.S. (and the world) is exactly what the terrorists are trying to accomplish.

This is ridiculously absurd even for this thread. If he's serious why doesn't he do it somewhere else?

 

[Statorama]

Ground Zero Imam says US worse than Al Qaeda

 

[mad sweeney]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this mosque/cc has any ties to Al Qaeda ("they" in your post).Other than, of course, being Muslim.

What's your problem? Are you the president of the mistreated Arabs of America? Or maybe something a little less glamorous, like the welfare division? You know, they - people in general. I don't have to agree with any of your misguided entitlement anger to be able to agree that this is a bad idea. And this, since you're so inept at deciphering the object of informal pronouns, refers to the idea that the United States government would have any say in this decision whatsoever. You don't know any better than anyone else who is or isn't behind this mosque.

So who is "they" in the phrase "Even if they bomb NYC again"? Well, the only people that could do it "again" would be Al Qaeda correct?

 

[mad sweeney]

Did you ever get around to imputing where I told you you should leave the board as you accused me of doing?

So are the building of mosques nationwide not testament to American values of equality and goodness, which flies in the face of what the terrorists were trying to accomplish?

It doesn't fly in the face of what the terrorists were trying to accomplish. Mosques throughout the U.S. (and the world) is exactly what the terrorists are trying to accomplish.

This is ridiculously absurd even for this thread. If he's serious why doesn't he do it somewhere else?

I see your confusion. That was a quick summation of your absurd points. "He" referred to Faum, not you (and "it" would be the mosque/cc/Islamic enlightenment project). I would've used "you" if I meant it about you.

 

[oneohh]

Some of you really are this stubborn? It's not about religion. It's about freedom of religion. Even if they bomb NYC again and the terror-plot headquarters is the new mosque, the mosque should stay as intended where intended.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever that this mosque/cc has any ties to Al Qaeda ("they" in your post).Other than, of course, being Muslim.

What's your problem? Are you the president of the mistreated Arabs of America? Or maybe something a little less glamorous, like the welfare division? You know, they - people in general. I don't have to agree with any of your misguided entitlement anger to be able to agree that this is a bad idea. And this, since you're so inept at deciphering the object of informal pronouns, refers to the idea that the United States government would have any say in this decision whatsoever. You don't know any better than anyone else who is or isn't behind this mosque.

So who is "they" in the phrase "Even if they bomb NYC again"? Well, the only people that could do it "again" would be Al Qaeda correct?

No, but I love that this is all you have at this point.

 

[mad sweeney]

Ground Zero Imam says US worse than Al Qaeda

Is he wrong in the points he makes? Has the US been involved in the killing of more non-combatant Muslims than AQ has Americans?