When someone tried to slap our country and our dead heros, we slap back. This is an assualt on our Country. I don't understand how you can't see that. The polling is running about 3 to 1 against this horrible project.
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Muslims in NYC Planning to Build Second Mosque Near Ground Zero (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Chadstroma
- Start date
McJose
Footballguy
I suspect John555 is Burton. It's all shtick.
The money is not going to come from terrorist organizations, it will come from individuals who support terrorists. Technically, the money will be clean, since it would be stupid to first send the money to terrorist organizations then have the money sent to this project. But this will be funded largely by readical Muslims in Iran and Saudi who hate America.
badmojo1006
Footballguy
Did I call you a bigot?
Statorama
Footballguy
Can we say "I told you so" then? Or are we still intolerant of the "religion of peace" at that point?
jamny
Footballguy
You can, I probably won't be able to.
Parrothead
Footballguy
it would be the fault of the people against the mosque.. duh..
I think you mischaracterize and are misreading what this is. I don't see this as a Christian vs. Muslim issue. This is an American vs. radical Islamists issue. If these were moderate Muslims looking for a place to prayer who have shownrespect for the people who died on 911, this would be a non-issue. Most people through the eyes of Americans see this as an ugly statement being made by the radicals we are at war with.
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
Unless people were going to get this fired up about a Chuck E. Cheese going up in the same location, this is 100% to do with religion, and not location.
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It is about 9-11. This site selection stinks and all the circumstances about this project makes it apparent that this is all about a bunch of radical Muslims making a strong statement in support of the terrorists who did this. It has nothing to do with Chrisitanity or moderate Muslims. This is about the faction of Muslims who support the use of terrorism and the response from Americans through the prism of country. More accurately, I should have said this is about the location and what it means to radical Muslims. If you are not a radical Muslim, having this building as close as possible to the 9-11 site would have been meaningless.
drummer
Footballguy
Muslims (not just the Terrorists) were killed on 9-11 too.
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timschochet
Footballguy
From Time:
Could all the sound and fury over a proposed mosque near Ground Zero actually be good for Democrats? At least one prominent Republican strategist thinks so, both over the short and the long term.
“It's the Monica Lewinsky ploy,” says Grover Norquist, a loyal lieutenant to the 1994 Gingrich revolution and president of Americans for Tax Reform. Norquist believes that the Ground Zero mosque controversy is distracting from the core 2010 Republican message in the same way that the Monica Lewinsky scandal distracted Republicans in 1998. “The Republican Party is on track to win a major victory in November based on the issue that Democrats are spending the country blind,” Norquist told me Tuesday evening. “There isn't a single voter in the country that was planning on voting for the Ds, who says, ‘Oh, mosque issue, now I will vote for the Rs.'”
Back in 1998, congressional Republicans were also “distracted by shiny things,” Norquist says, when the Lewinsky scandal began. “They nationalized the election around an irrelevancy,” he said. Republicans lost five House seats that year, despite widespread predictions that they would expand their majority. Furthermore, Norquist argues that by promoting such tangential issue as the mosque, Republicans have given vulnerable Democrats, like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a lifeline, allowing him to distance himself from President Obama and the rest of the Democratic Party. “Harry Reid says, ‘Oh, is this a get out of jail free card?'” Grover explained.
Over the long term, Norquist also sees danger for Republicans not just among Muslim voters, but among other religious groups as well. “Religious minorities all go, ‘I get it. This means me too,'” he said. He pointed to a recent story in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, called “When Shuls Were Banned in America,” which draws connections between the current mosque controversy and New York's history of antisemitism.
“Long term, you could do to the Muslim vote and every other religious minority what Republicans did to the Catholic vote in ‘Rum Romanism and Rebellion,'” Norquist added, using a phrase uttered at a speech attended by Republican presidential candidate James Blaine in 1884, which arguably cost him victory in that election, by alienating Catholic voters.
Such stands are not out of character for Norquist, who has long waged a battle to make the the Republican Party more inclusive of racial and religious minorities. During the Bush Administration, Norquist served as an informal envoy to the American Muslim community. He has also been an outspoken supporter of immigration reform, arguing that it was important that Republicans not alienate Hispanic voters. "Tom Tancredo has done damage to the Republican Party in states he has never visited," Norquist says, referring to the former Colorado congressman best known for his frequent denunciation of illegal immigration on cable television.
UPDATE: A new Gallup poll suggests that Norquist may be on to something about the mosque issue being a bright shiny distraction. The poll found that while more independent voters strongly disagreed with Obama's mosque remarks (27 percent) than strongly agreed (15 percent), the response was muted. Only 29 percent of independents said they were "paying a great deal of attention" to the story. Close to half of independents do not have an opinion. Four in ten Americans generally said they didn't know enough to hazard an opinion.
Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/18.../#ixzz0xZifHUaq
Could all the sound and fury over a proposed mosque near Ground Zero actually be good for Democrats? At least one prominent Republican strategist thinks so, both over the short and the long term.
“It's the Monica Lewinsky ploy,” says Grover Norquist, a loyal lieutenant to the 1994 Gingrich revolution and president of Americans for Tax Reform. Norquist believes that the Ground Zero mosque controversy is distracting from the core 2010 Republican message in the same way that the Monica Lewinsky scandal distracted Republicans in 1998. “The Republican Party is on track to win a major victory in November based on the issue that Democrats are spending the country blind,” Norquist told me Tuesday evening. “There isn't a single voter in the country that was planning on voting for the Ds, who says, ‘Oh, mosque issue, now I will vote for the Rs.'”
Back in 1998, congressional Republicans were also “distracted by shiny things,” Norquist says, when the Lewinsky scandal began. “They nationalized the election around an irrelevancy,” he said. Republicans lost five House seats that year, despite widespread predictions that they would expand their majority. Furthermore, Norquist argues that by promoting such tangential issue as the mosque, Republicans have given vulnerable Democrats, like Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, a lifeline, allowing him to distance himself from President Obama and the rest of the Democratic Party. “Harry Reid says, ‘Oh, is this a get out of jail free card?'” Grover explained.
Over the long term, Norquist also sees danger for Republicans not just among Muslim voters, but among other religious groups as well. “Religious minorities all go, ‘I get it. This means me too,'” he said. He pointed to a recent story in the Jewish newspaper The Forward, called “When Shuls Were Banned in America,” which draws connections between the current mosque controversy and New York's history of antisemitism.
“Long term, you could do to the Muslim vote and every other religious minority what Republicans did to the Catholic vote in ‘Rum Romanism and Rebellion,'” Norquist added, using a phrase uttered at a speech attended by Republican presidential candidate James Blaine in 1884, which arguably cost him victory in that election, by alienating Catholic voters.
Such stands are not out of character for Norquist, who has long waged a battle to make the the Republican Party more inclusive of racial and religious minorities. During the Bush Administration, Norquist served as an informal envoy to the American Muslim community. He has also been an outspoken supporter of immigration reform, arguing that it was important that Republicans not alienate Hispanic voters. "Tom Tancredo has done damage to the Republican Party in states he has never visited," Norquist says, referring to the former Colorado congressman best known for his frequent denunciation of illegal immigration on cable television.
UPDATE: A new Gallup poll suggests that Norquist may be on to something about the mosque issue being a bright shiny distraction. The poll found that while more independent voters strongly disagreed with Obama's mosque remarks (27 percent) than strongly agreed (15 percent), the response was muted. Only 29 percent of independents said they were "paying a great deal of attention" to the story. Close to half of independents do not have an opinion. Four in ten Americans generally said they didn't know enough to hazard an opinion.
Read more: http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2010/08/18.../#ixzz0xZifHUaq
KarmaPolice
Footballguy
thanks for verifying that this is about religion.John555 said:
If you are against this for the location, you are 100% against a building going up in this location, no matter what it is. Let's just stop pretending this isn't about religion and move on from there.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Even though it's only conspiracy theories based on nothing and tries to blame all Muslims for the acts of terrorists. If this was a mile from GZ there'd still be a huge furor over it because fear mongering Righties will whip it up. It's unreal how much some of us (yeah, us, Americans, no matter how deluded some of you are) are willing to submit to fear and hate and give the radicals everything they want from us. Of course, JohnKKK, er 555, is either _mx or Burton shtick. Sadly, people are actually behaving this way for real.John555 said:
mad sweeney
Footballguy
Ithink the West is clearly showing they don't want a bridge.How many Iraqi non coms would you estimate we killed with our invasion that has been soundly proven to have been done with, at best, criminally incompetent intelligence, misrepresentation and outright fabrication. You wanna be a real Smerican? You have to accept the bad as well as the good. You want bridges built? Be honest. I don't see ANY of that from the opponents of the mosque.John555 said:Real Americans don't take getting pooped on very well. The anger is only going to get worse. These moderate Muslims really know how to build bridges between their religion and the west.badmojo1006 said:Oh yeah, don't forget the head moderate just accused the US of killing 500,000 Iraqi children. Pathetic how clueless their front man is.
True...as long as the people making it as hard as possible are not breaking the law in the process. Think anything such as slander, libel or defamation of character is occurring as a result of this recent debate?Link: http://www.attorneys-usa.com/intentional/defamation.htmljonessed said:
Heck, using those definitions, I would think that Fox News would need to be auctioned off to the highest bidder in a year or two.
Steve Tasker
Footballguy
The whole "celebrate 9-11" argument just baffles me. Why would any American Muslim celebrate 9-11?
Jewell
Footballguy
I can understand supporting the location, but you're trying to quiet too many dissenting voices.True...as long as the people making it as hard as possible are not breaking the law in the process. Think anything such as slander, libel or defamation of character is occurring as a result of this recent debate?Link: http://www.attorneys-usa.com/intentional/defamation.htmljonessed said:
Heck, using those definitions, I would think that Fox News would need to be auctioned off to the highest bidder in a year or two.
jonessed
Footballguy
You have been reading too much timschochet.True...as long as the people making it as hard as possible are not breaking the law in the process. Think anything such as slander, libel or defamation of character is occurring as a result of this recent debate?Link: http://www.attorneys-usa.com/intentional/defamation.htmljonessed said:
Heck, using those definitions, I would think that Fox News would need to be auctioned off to the highest bidder in a year or two.
Listen very carefully, please. I'm not trying to quiet any dissenting voices. What I am trying to quiet is lies. People can oppose the mosque (prayer/community center) for 1,000 different reasons. They're allergic to glass. They don't trust Muslims. They were bullied by an Arab-American when they were in high school. I DON'T CARE. Just be honest about it.If you have to lie, slander, smear, defame, et al to get your point across and/or sway people to your (the generic "your," not you, Jewell) point of view, then you (the generic "you") are a sad, unsophisticated, marginally intelligent, morally bankrupt human being.
Be against something. Bring a bullhorn and protest it until you are hoarse! Go crazy...have a great time. Just stop it (America) with the "birther," "secret Muslim," "unnamed sources with ties to Hamas and [gasp] Iran," etc. It is sad...it is embarrassing...and it does NOTHING to help our nation and it's global relations in the short or long-term.
timschochet
Footballguy
Noone can read enough timschochet.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
We had dinner with our cottage neighbors tonight. The neighbors wife brought up the viral video of the WTC union carpenter (black guy in the skull cap) who got verbally abused at Sunday's anti-mosque rally. As we were kicking that around, our pediatrician (who is summering the same area we are) came over to say hello. We chit chat, and as she is leaving, she mentions she overheard our conversation when she was walking up. Her practice is in the city, but she lives on Staten Island, so I was 90% sure where this was headed. She said she's against it, and it seems in poor taste.In a friendly, non-confrontational manner, I inquired if she was aware it wasn't at ground zero. She didn't realize it was two blocks away; the look on her face was priceless.(ASIDE: two blocks is nothing in a small town, but in the city it could be a whole other micro-nabe; if your dry cleaner moves two blocks, you probably look for another one)When I asked if she was aware it wasn't a mosque, and it wasn't a community center with a mosque, but rather a cultural center with a prayer room, her shoulders slumped. She is (obvs) pretty bright, but when you have a private practice and four kids, who has time to read up on this stuff? But just from the blurbs she had been catching here and there, the info she got was quite distorted.Congrats to the folks who oppose this; you're winning the misinformation game big time.
Radio Free Homer
Footballguy
Exactly. My buddy's parents live in a very upscale neighborhood and were all in a tizzy when a black family moved in down the street. If only the coloreds could have been more considerate and moved somewhere else, the whole issue could have been avoided.jamny said:
Fennis
Footballguy
Are they inside or outside a two block radius?
jamny
Footballguy
yeah, that's the same exact situation.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
The way to stop terrorism is to stop being terrorized. I've never seen such a frightened group of people before. The Muslims are coming, the Mexicans are coming, jeezus, get a grip.
Statorama
Footballguy
Elitist
You know things are serious when white people aren't afraid to yell at a black dude in a skull cap..and it's a mosque dude, get over it.
ScottyFargo
Footballguy
Come on, man. Just because he looked vaguely Muslim, and reminded the protesters of Muslims, he was targetted. It's ugly, you know it, and it's a symptom of irrational hatred.
Jewell
Footballguy
I see what you're saying. I'd like to see the level of discourse raised too, and intentional lying shouldn't be tolerated. The problem here is that none of the things you list rise to the standard of libel, slander, or defamation.The reason for this is because the accusations are directed at public figures. In New York Times Co. v. Sullivan (1963) the Supreme Court laid down tough constitutional limitations on libel recoveries by public officials.
Ruling: A defamatory falsehood relating to his official conduct must be made with actual malice. That is, with knowledge that it was false or with reckless disregard of whether it was false or not.
The cases you cite don't rise to this standard:
The Birthers and Secret Muslim Movement actually believe those things, and then the news is just reporting on it.
"Unnamed source" could be to protect the sources identity. Quite common.
And since the community center will contain a prayer room/mosque referring to the structure as a mosque likely also doesn't rise to the standard.
And why did the Supreme Court carve out a higher standard for public figures than the Average Joe? Because the Supreme Court wanted to protect dissenting voices.
Gigantomachia
Footballguy
can't believe this is still being debated as something that should not be done. tyranny of the majority anyone??
perry147
Footballguy
Nothing like good old Faux News.
CBusAlex
Footballguy
You know, Mr. Footlong Hotdog Inventor, Mr. Really Bad Toupee Wearer, Mr. Over-Zealous Foul Ball Catcher... those guys.
I watch Fox News, and I've heard both of these topics (location and that's not a mosque) discussed. I guess it's a step up for liberals to complain about mis-information than throwing out the race card over and over.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sure it's being discussed- at the same time as a headline at the bottom reads: GROUND ZERO MOSQUE. Who are you trying to kid here?
No offense, I watch MSNBC's primetime, and they are much more nasty.True...as long as the people making it as hard as possible are not breaking the law in the process. Think anything such as slander, libel or defamation of character is occurring as a result of this recent debate?Link: http://www.attorneys-usa.com/intentional/defamation.htmljonessed said:
Heck, using those definitions, I would think that Fox News would need to be auctioned off to the highest bidder in a year or two.
Fennis
Footballguy
I need a poll on who watches FOX, MSNBC or both. What a strange form of newstainment.No offense, I watch MSNBC's primetime, and they are much more nasty.True...as long as the people making it as hard as possible are not breaking the law in the process. Think anything such as slander, libel or defamation of character is occurring as a result of this recent debate?Link: http://www.attorneys-usa.com/intentional/defamation.htmljonessed said:
Heck, using those definitions, I would think that Fox News would need to be auctioned off to the highest bidder in a year or two.
oneohh
Footballguy
The majority of Americans do not want viral Islam or homosexuality to take over their country. I would bet most of those people would consider the Mexicans for the gays and Muslims a great trade. If you really want to lessen the power of any of these groups, simply ignore them. Gays are being celebrated and Muslims are being instigated. When you ignore them, you'll lose most of the fringe which will also lessen the strength of any vocal minority push.
I hear you. However, you failed to mention the first item I mentioned in my previous rant:
Just because something isn't illegal, that means something is "right" or okay?!
Since most of the people on the "right" of this issue would likely call themselves Christians, I believe, then what about Exodus 20:16 and Deuteronomy 5:20:16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
Isn't that the one of the important principles of Christianity (and most religions of the world)? We are called (and held) to a higher standard than the laws of man? Obey the laws of the land...but "tie" goes to God and/or if there is a conflict between the two, God's law "wins." So...even if some of the Bible-thumping, flag-wearing Christians who are out protesting the proposed community and prayer center or planning a Koran burning on 9/11 cannot be held legally responsible under United States law for lying, defaming, whatever they have to do to get other people on their side of the issue, what about the Laws of God? If you believe in God, anyway.
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the moops
Footballguy
Mexicans > Gays > Muslims?Do I have that correct? I think we need some sort of flow to keep track of which minority group is most detested by you folks.
Nominee for most bigoted post of 2010.
Fennis
Footballguy
tell us more
Jewell
Footballguy
I couldn't agree with you more, and that's exactly the point most anti-location people have been making.Just because something isn't illegal, that means something is "right" or okay?!
Fennis
Footballguy
I get it! It like poeple who voted for George Bush twice. It wasnt illegal, but it just wasn't right.I couldn't agree with you more, and that's exactly the point most anti-location people have been making.Just because something isn't illegal, that means something is "right" or okay?!
This is schtick or a serious case of sarcasm, right?! It has to be. Either that, or I feel like I've time warped back into the 1970s sitting around my Mom's parent's kitchen table listening to my grandmother talking...who was in a time-warp (in the 1970s) back into the 1930s-1940s. Nothing like good 'ol fashioned family/institutional racism and bigotry...
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KarmaPolice
Footballguy
No such thing as anti-location people. This isn't about a building going up in that location, it's about an Islamic building going up in that location.I couldn't agree with you more, and that's exactly the point most anti-location people have been making.Just because something isn't illegal, that means something is "right" or okay?!
Granted it's my opinion, but I've felt all along that by people making a big deal out of this building they are saying that all of Islam is the same and the people putting up this complex should feel guilty about the atrocities of 9/11 for some reason.
oneohh
Footballguy
It's not at all a bigoted post. I don't have any ill will for any of these groups. In fact, I would like to see the Muslims get their building. I'm not sure why the location is such a big deal to either side, frankly.This is schtick or a serious case of sarcasm, right?! It has to be. Either that, or I feel like I've time warped back into the 1970s sitting around my Mom's parent's kitchen table listening to my grandmother talking...who was in a time-warp (in the 1970s) back into the 1930s-1940s. Nothing like good 'ol fashioned family/institutional racism and bigotry...
You don't see the difference though? Disagreeing with someone's religious beliefs and making a reasoned, honest case in opposition vs. distrusting someone's "secret" motivations and saying whatever one needs to say (regardless of how untrue it might be) in order to get your way? It's the same thing we should be doing with politics in our country. Rather than make the case for why people SHOULDN'T vote for "the other guy," make a case for why we should vote for YOU. Why are your ideas/platforms better...not why the other camp's ideas/platforms are worse. All this "lesser of two evils" stuff is killing our country.I couldn't agree with you more, and that's exactly the point most anti-location people have been making.Just because something isn't illegal, that means something is "right" or okay?!
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