Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I think you have mischarcterized my arguments by trying to make my opinions directly contrary to the pats supporters.
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NE or DEN will win because... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter moleculo
- Start date
The Duff Man
Footballguy
So you are saying they play down to their competition? I am curious if you have other examples of this from their last three playoff runs or is this the first time they have done this. And if this is the first year they have done this maybe it is not them "playing down to their competition", maybe they just aren't as good as previous years.Dude.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Yes NE dropped a TD in the Jax game. What makes you think they won't do it again when they are in a hostile environment?I think you are underestimating how bad Jax was. They have no running game (Fred Taylor and a bunch of also-rans). Thier QB was coming back from injury after having not played for 6 weeks. After one half they were whooping this brutal team by the grand score of 7-3.At halftime the Pats used one of their weapons, their coach, to make some adjustments. Great! It still took some brutal tackling by Jax, a missed Jax FG and an INT for the Pats to pull away. AT HOME.Without these the score is 14-6, which is a tight victory over a putrid playoff team in your own backyard. I don't normally do the IF thing, but I am replying to your IF about them dropping a TD.
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Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
First of all, it is not O versus O - it is O versus D:
2. NE pass O vs Den pass D: solomatise, mik789fl believe that Brady, Branch, Givins, and Brown are better than the Denver DB's. Marc Levin cites an improved denver pass rush and excellent LB's as items of denver's D that will neutralize the Patriots' passing game.Your comment, while labelled as NE Pass D versus Den Pass O, actually discusses the Pats pass O versus the denver D.
I'd also throw something in there about Denver's pass O versus the Pats pass D.
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SoloMatisse
Footballguy
Dude....where did I say they play down to their competition?? You provide that quote for me, and Ill provide you with a retort. I said theyd ELEVATE their game when needed....this weekend. Lets speak on our own behalves, shalnt we??....dude.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
In the same post, one sentence later:
Please explain. I'm missing something.
Keys Myaths
Pokerguy
You're not allowing for the greatness of Tom Brady here! Even if Denver scores more points, Brady can still win the game for NE.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
I hate to drag on arguments where the other side obviously isn't going to get it but sometimes I just can't help myself. You said they elevate their game when needed. So what happens when they don't need to elevate their game (vrs Jax)? They play like crap.
Since you are probably going to say this isn't "playing down to the competition" I'll just let it drop.
Instead I'll use your exact words and ask, what happens if they can't elevate their game against Den? In previous years I don't believe they had a very poor game and then magically elevated their game when needed. They were good the whole way through the playoffs. This year they are not, but people are convinced that because they are the Pats last week's showing doesn't matter. It matters much more than what happened in the last 4 years in the playoffs.
DoctorDetroit
Chocolate Thunder
I stopped looking through this thread right here.
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Serenity Now
Footballguy
NE will win because they will slow down the Denver running game more than Denver can stop NE's passing game.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
I really believe this game comes down to turnovers - NE rarely makes them, and makes them even less in the playoffs. But, if Jake Plummer protects the ball as well as he has protected the ball the last 16 games, NE will have a REALLY hard time getting enough momentum going in their pure base offense to outscore the Broncos.The Pats NEED to have the "big plays" go their way, or else they can not win the game - the Pats offense is simply not good enough to move on the Broncos' defense in Mile High. if this game were in Foxboro, I'd give it to the Pats - but it's not, it is in Denver. without turnovers or a big ST play helping them along, the Pats have very little chance of beating the Broncs.
sho nuff
Footballguy
I think Denver will win...because they will run the ball enough for Plummer to find Smith and burn the secondary.However...if NE wins...it will be because they have forced Plummer back into his old INT machine ways...if the Pats front can stuff the run and put pressure on Plummer...that is how they will win.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Some great stuff in here that's being overlooked in general.I completely agree that the strength of Denver's defense is the passing game. I was checking out the FootballOutsiders.com stats on this (SSOG can tell you all about them) ... they have Denver #4 against the pass on a per-play basis. Total passing yards allowed isn't the greatest indicator in this case since Denver's seen more passing attempts than anyone in the league.
Overall ranks from FootballOutsiders.com, based on a per-play basis (take with a grain of salt since Pats are just now getting healthy):
Offense:
Denver #4 overall, #5 pass, #1 run
New England #8 overall, #2 pass, #19 run (I think these numbers are probably fair game)
Defense:
Denver #6 overall, #4 against pass, #17 against run
New England #27 overall, #29 against pass, #13 against run (I definitely feel the Pats are better than this)
Based on this, the biggest mismatch on paper would actually (and very surprisingly) appear to be Denver's passing game. It's the only matchup that's not clearly strength vs. strength or weakness vs. weakness.
So everyone is pretty much right about this game. Plummer will make plays in this game. Whichever team he makes plays for (Denver or New England) will win the game.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
Agreed, I think we're all so pumped right now. I haven't been this excited about a playoff game since the Broncos-Packers Super Bowl.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Took the words right out of my mouth.
moleculo
Footballguy
I am definately on board with these sentiments. I almost wish Denver loses because I don't think I can take another week of anticipation.I do think it is fair to say that the game will boil down to Plummer and your thoughts on this game are based on your prediction of him (generally speaking). If you think about Plummer circa 2005, Denver has an excellent chance. Plummer circa 2004, not so much.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Denver fan? really? 
Kid - you are 100 percent deadon, IMO - as I stated earlier, I donlt think ther Pats wil turn the ball over much, they are too focused in the playoffs. if Jake keeps the ball in the offense's hands w/o INTs, the Broncos will be in excellent shape throughout the game.
But - do NOT overlook the play of the special teams -these are two of th ebest ST units in the game - one big play on ST one way or the other could also swing the game.
ffldrew
Footballguy
Marc - I'm thinking there will be several Patriot turnovers. If they try to go to the spread I don't know how Brady will get the calls off to his line, rb's and receivers if the Denver crowd is as loud as I think it will be. I see a hit on the arm from a missed blitz pickup and a fumble and perhaps a route miscommunication turning into an interception - and maybe more than one of these. They will be blitzing from all angles - if Lynch hits Brady hard on a few plays that will help as well. I see false starts and some delay of game calls and lots of long yardage situations.I also agree with you on special teams, the Patriots have an advantage as I still think Elam is not 100%. Vinitiari is THE clutch kicker.
Kid - you are 100 percent deadon, IMO - as I stated earlier, I donlt think ther Pats wil turn the ball over much, they are too focused in the playoffs. if Jake keeps the ball in the offense's hands w/o INTs, the Broncos will be in excellent shape throughout the game.
But - do NOT overlook the play of the special teams -these are two of th ebest ST units in the game - one big play on ST one way or the other could also swing the game.
It has been a long (way to long) time since there has been a home playoff game in Denver, the fans better be ready. I expect bedlam in the stands, lots of foot stomping-good old fashion Rocky Mountain Mile High Thunder, Mile High should be rocking! Bowlen could have built it on concrete but he wanted the metal just like the old place for this reason - it is time to take advantage.
Everyone is expecting Brady to play like he has in the regular season and taking into account his prowess at reading Defenses - but he has to get the info to the players and this will be a long way from the crowds he gets at home.
moleculo
Footballguy
here's the worst excuse I have ever heard - form the front page of todays boston globe:
so...Den will win becase Brady will overthrow everybody?
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
LO(mf'in)LYeah - that's why teams have problems throwing against Denver's defense this year - the past few years of shoiddy pass defense at home all occurred on abberant days when the air was artificially "thickened."Ah, the playoffs - when we examine the minutae so that we can suggest the ridiculous.Oh, and the first meeting in this "thin air?" Brady completed 24 of 46, for 299, and a TD. That is 6.5 YPA against a team that gave up 5.9 all year long.
SSOG
Moderator
Ah, but the last time these two teams met, Sauerbrun wound up winning the AFC's special-teams player of the week award.I also agree with you on special teams, the Patriots have an advantage as I still think Elam is not 100%. Vinitiari is THE clutch kicker.
Kid - you are 100 percent deadon, IMO - as I stated earlier, I donlt think ther Pats wil turn the ball over much, they are too focused in the playoffs. if Jake keeps the ball in the offense's hands w/o INTs, the Broncos will be in excellent shape throughout the game.
But - do NOT overlook the play of the special teams -these are two of th ebest ST units in the game - one big play on ST one way or the other could also swing the game.
SoloMatisse
Footballguy
I cant believe Im actually DEFENDING New England's ability to elevate their game. Not getting it? Funny. Look....I havent said a word about New England playing down to their competion or up to their competition, or whether they elevate their level from game to game or play to play or day to day or year to year. Ive simply said they elevate their game when they need to . I dont need to explain beyond that or defend a team that has won 3 or the last 4 Superbowls AND beat a 16-1 team last year that looked unbeatable.....ON THE ROAD. Denver fans....thicken up the skin already. There's no disrespect being thrown around here, but if anyone thinks a 25 point WIN is a poor effort, then youve been completely spoiled and misled by NE's greatness. Theyve won their 3 Superbowls by a grand total of NINE points, so theyre not typically blowing teams out. They barely snuck by Philly last year by 3....so was that a POOR effort? Like I said...NE simply doesnt care how any of us view whether they played ALLWORLDLY or PISSPOORLY, as long as they win. Im sure Denver's guys feel the same way. ExplainED. Good luck Denver fans....see ya on the other side....WIN OR LOSE.
nerangers
Footballguy
The Patriots will win because the NFL is scripted, and more people would rather see the Colts take down the Patriots in the playoffs then the Broncos! 
I know a lot seem to think that the Win over the Jags was easy and should be discredited, but I thought one half of the Jags Team showed up...The Defense. I wish the Patriots had the secondary that the Jags showed in the first half. That is why the game score was so low initially. The Pats seemed rusty, then came alive in the second half.I think the Pats win because the Broncos will come out rusty (due to the bye week and all) and the Pats will score enough to keep the lead through the game and take the crowd out of it. This is not the first time the Patriots have had to go to a hostile field during the playoffs. 
I know a lot seem to think that the Win over the Jags was easy and should be discredited, but I thought one half of the Jags Team showed up...The Defense. I wish the Patriots had the secondary that the Jags showed in the first half. That is why the game score was so low initially. The Pats seemed rusty, then came alive in the second half.I think the Pats win because the Broncos will come out rusty (due to the bye week and all) and the Pats will score enough to keep the lead through the game and take the crowd out of it. This is not the first time the Patriots have had to go to a hostile field during the playoffs. 
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Pats will will because much to the chagrin of the loud and raucous Den fans NE will maintain their composure early in the game and not give Den any cheap scores. NE's front seven will contain the Den running game & keep Plummer from bootlegging & scrambling around. On O NE will use lots of 4 & 5 rec sets and the short passing game to move the ball down the field taking several shots down the field as the game wears on.Broncos will win if NE can't maintain their composure early with the crowd noise and Den blitzing and if Anderson/Bell average 4+ yards a carry. 
NE 27DEN 20
NE 27DEN 20
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bostonfred
Footballguy
This appears to have been closer than expected.here's the worst excuse I have ever heard - form the front page of todays boston globe:
so...Den will win becase Brady will overthrow everybody?
moleculo
Footballguy
This appears to have been closer than expected.here's the worst excuse I have ever heard - form the front page of todays boston globe:
so...Den will win becase Brady will overthrow everybody?
The Duff Man
Footballguy
To most outsiders (non Denver or NE fans like myself) it was fairly obvious that NE was not playing at a high level. Not only did they NOT elevate their game (as I suspected they wouldn't) they actually played WORSE. Guess what, winning on the road in the NFL playoffs against a rested team is not easy, even if you have a great coach and QB.
The Duff Man
Footballguy
Also, I think NE got outcoached. Denver brought pressure all game long and the Pats couldnt' do anything about it. They were VERY successful with screens and short passes but didn't stick with them. They could have easily marched down the field this way but tried to force things down the field instead.The normally unflappable Brady was off his game right from the first snap when he was pumping his fist at Lynch. He had some good throws but missed many as well.
SSOG
Moderator
I think there were plenty of instances of Belichick getting outcoached. He didn't have his special teams prepared, his defense only managed to pick off Plummer once all night (generally not creating much pressure and not really confusing Jake), and his offense was unable to handle the blitz. They made some big plays against it, yes, but the blitz beat them far more than they beat the blitz (including Bailey's 100 yard pick return).That said, it's only one game. Even the best of coaches lose, and even the worst of coaches win.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Yes.Getting more TOs and Jake not making costly mistakes against a Pats D that played pretty well.
But, in all, I'd say Al Wilson was more influential than Jake Plummer in this game, though Jake did his job well enough to win the game.
Marc Levin
Hangs out with Oscar Zeta Acosta
Gotta disagree - Shanahan's first half coaching was not very good, IMO.What did NOT happen is Belichek didn't pull a rabbit out of his hat with his halftime adjustments (something that he almost always excels at).
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