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New study out Millienials worse off than Boomers (2 Viewers)

Blue Collar Boomers were the last of the true Blue Collars who worked their asses off and rarely complained, just kept their heads down and busted their asses. Knew hard work was how to get where you wanted to go.

 
I've said this before but I think the two biggest differences between Gen X and the millennials is the influence of the greatest generation, and the evolution of technology.

Gen X had the greatest generation as grandparents, neighbors, community leaders, etc.  They passed on a lot of knowledge on how it was to live through a depression, to fight in a world war, and to just things done. 

When I was a kid we had rotary phones, 4 channels, and we had to go outside to entertain ourselves.  We also have seen all this technology grow so we had to adapt to it over time, it wasn't just there from our first memories.  We saw the crack epidemic, runaway crime, the breakdown of the inner city, ESPN, cable news, a ####ty economy, grew up with Reagan, and still had to pass notes in school on paper. 

I think in both cases it lends to appreciation of things both large and small in scope, and we have evolved more as a generation than any other in history.  So we got the principals of the greatest generation first hand, we got the technological evolution, and we became a generation of get it done-ers. 

 
Important as well: the Internet has created feedback loops between like-minded individuals. Folks commiserate on Tumblr because they hear what they want to hear from other users instead of hearing what they need to be told.

 
Doctor Detroit said:
I've said this before but I think the two biggest differences between Gen X and the millennials is the influence of the greatest generation, and the evolution of technology.

Gen X had the greatest generation as grandparents, neighbors, community leaders, etc.  They passed on a lot of knowledge on how it was to live through a depression, to fight in a world war, and to just things done. 

When I was a kid we had rotary phones, 4 channels, and we had to go outside to entertain ourselves.  We also have seen all this technology grow so we had to adapt to it over time, it wasn't just there from our first memories.  We saw the crack epidemic, runaway crime, the breakdown of the inner city, ESPN, cable news, a ####ty economy, grew up with Reagan, and still had to pass notes in school on paper. 

I think in both cases it lends to appreciation of things both large and small in scope, and we have evolved more as a generation than any other in history.  So we got the principals of the greatest generation first hand, we got the technological evolution, and we became a generation of get it done-ers. 
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Very good point on the grandparents, speaks to both sides of our family great role models. 

 
"Why should I listen to my parents? My dad is just a wageslave and my stay at home mom has been deceived by the patriarchy."

 
As someone born at the end of the baby boom who has kids born at the beginning of the age of millennials, I have to chuckle at the mock indignation at generational labelling. It sure seems like this is a human habit that's been going on forever. I got married while still in college, lived in a crappy apartment saving for a down payment on house. Once we got the house we started saving what we could so we could send the kids to college without having student loans (my wife had student loans... yes even back in the 70s). We were in the house 3 yrs before our first child was born.

My kids are now 26 & 29, single and are still saving for their own places so they can finally stop renting. They have zero college debt thanks to the financial planning of their parents & both work 40-50 hr weeks at their salaried jobs. They are as hard working as anyone I know. Are there slackers in their generation? Absolutely. Are there slackers in my generation? Absolutely. I don't blame the millennials for their entitled attitudes as much as I blame their parents. My son has had the parents of millennial employees (his peers) show up at performance reviews. Let's hope this trend dies quickly. 

 
hagmania said:
Important as well: the Internet has created feedback loops between like-minded individuals. Folks commiserate on Tumblr because they hear what they want to hear from other users instead of hearing what they need to be told.
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Yeah kind of like in this forum. LOL

 
Doctor Detroit said:
I've said this before but I think the two biggest differences between Gen X and the millennials is the influence of the greatest generation, and the evolution of technology.

Gen X had the greatest generation as grandparents, neighbors, community leaders, etc.  They passed on a lot of knowledge on how it was to live through a depression, to fight in a world war, and to just things done. 

When I was a kid we had rotary phones, 4 channels, and we had to go outside to entertain ourselves.  We also have seen all this technology grow so we had to adapt to it over time, it wasn't just there from our first memories.  We saw the crack epidemic, runaway crime, the breakdown of the inner city, ESPN, cable news, a ####ty economy, grew up with Reagan, and still had to pass notes in school on paper. 

I think in both cases it lends to appreciation of things both large and small in scope, and we have evolved more as a generation than any other in history.  So we got the principals of the greatest generation first hand, we got the technological evolution, and we became a generation of get it done-ers. 
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You're addressing an issue that will be as big in the 21st C as the nuclear threat was in the 20th. A few centuries from now, humans will be laughing at the behavioral lynchpins of our era as much as we do the medicine of a few hundred years ago. Our regression of the last 50 yrs will be seen mostly as the silly enjoyment of new freedoms and opportunities, but the fact that we have progressed soooo far technologically without developing corresponding models for good mental health or replacements sets for value systems while regularly exercising, at the behest of behavior gurus, ridiculously callous, selfish & anti-cooperative coping mechanisms on the heels of winning the first victories over barbarism will mark this time as the Dark Energy Ages.

 
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Doctor Detroit said:
I've said this before but I think the two biggest differences between Gen X and the millennials is the influence of the greatest generation, and the evolution of technology.

Gen X had the greatest generation as grandparents, neighbors, community leaders, etc.  They passed on a lot of knowledge on how it was to live through a depression, to fight in a world war, and to just things done. 

When I was a kid we had rotary phones, 4 channels, and we had to go outside to entertain ourselves.  We also have seen all this technology grow so we had to adapt to it over time, it wasn't just there from our first memories.  We saw the crack epidemic, runaway crime, the breakdown of the inner city, ESPN, cable news, a ####ty economy, grew up with Reagan, and still had to pass notes in school on paper. 

I think in both cases it lends to appreciation of things both large and small in scope, and we have evolved more as a generation than any other in history.  So we got the principals of the greatest generation first hand, we got the technological evolution, and we became a generation of get it done-ers. 
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I say this all the time!  We are the 2nd greatest generation!

 
BowieMercs said:
As someone born at the end of the baby boom who has kids born at the beginning of the age of millennials, I have to chuckle at the mock indignation at generational labelling. It sure seems like this is a human habit that's been going on forever. I got married while still in college, lived in a crappy apartment saving for a down payment on house. Once we got the house we started saving what we could so we could send the kids to college without having student loans (my wife had student loans... yes even back in the 70s). We were in the house 3 yrs before our first child was born.

My kids are now 26 & 29, single and are still saving for their own places so they can finally stop renting. They have zero college debt thanks to the financial planning of their parents & both work 40-50 hr weeks at their salaried jobs. They are as hard working as anyone I know. Are there slackers in their generation? Absolutely. Are there slackers in my generation? Absolutely. I don't blame the millennials for their entitled attitudes as much as I blame their parents. My son has had the parents of millennial employees (his peers) show up at performance reviews. Let's hope this trend dies quickly. 
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Are there no first time buyer programs in your state? We have a great program here in Idaho.  Two years of recent employment and a 620 score and they can get 0.5% down, 3.5 fixed.  Put about two dozen 19-28 year olds in homes last year on this. All hard working kids 

Payment winds up to be 200 to 300 less than rent for the same home. Rents are crazy here. 

 
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Getzlaf15 said:
Are there no first time buyer programs in your state? We have a great program here in Idaho.  Two years of recent employment and a 620 score and they can get 0.5% down, 3.5 fixed.  Put about two dozen 19-28 year olds in homes last year on this. All hard working kids 

Payment winds up to be 200 to 300 less than rent for the same home. Rents are crazy here. 
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You think housing is expensive in Idaho? Come to Northern VA & you may change your mind ;)

 
Rent's crazy everywhere habitable. The house I live in the rent would be close to twice the mortgage I pay.

 
Getzlaf15 said:
It's not expensive at all. Buying is less than renting, which is most everywhere now. So how much is a basic 3 2 1500 house there?
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Inventory is very low in that category. My daughter is looking for a 1-2 bedroom condo with washer & dryer in the unit,  and her upper limit is $200k. Pickings are slim,  There are 11 single family homes on the market in our county with 3 BR/2bath ranging from $300-350K. I could not buy the house I live in (own) now.

 
BowieMercs said:
Inventory is very low in that category. My daughter is looking for a 1-2 bedroom condo with washer & dryer in the unit,  and her upper limit is $200k. Pickings are slim,  There are 11 single family homes on the market in our county with 3 BR/2bath ranging from $300-350K. I could not buy the house I live in (own) now.
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I want to move to DC and studio apartments in so so neighborhoods are at least $1800 a month. 

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Are there no first time buyer programs in your state? We have a great program here in Idaho.  Two years of recent employment and a 620 score and they can get 0.5% down, 3.5 fixed.  Put about two dozen 19-28 year olds in homes last year on this. All hard working kids 

Payment winds up to be 200 to 300 less than rent for the same home. Rents are crazy here. 




 
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Is it really 1/2 a percent rather than 5%?  Seriously asking.  

 
Anecdotally speaking, the millenials that I've worked with/experienced have the ability to think outside the box and recognize inane and counter productive or "because this is how it's always done" workplace actions that past generations seem to embrace/fall in line with.

Millenials also seem to think that if they improve the workplace efficiency once....they've earned their place for all time and be given the keys to the kingdom.....and when this doesn't happen....they get sulky for awhile.

I think there's also a disconnect in the millenial brain; that there isn't a realization that their parent worked hard and for a number of years for the McMansion that they were raised in and that there's an expectation that one should have said McMansion several months after keeping a job. 

 
Thunderlips said:
Anecdotally speaking, the millenials that I've worked with/experienced have the ability to think outside the box and recognize inane and counter productive or "because this is how it's always done" workplace actions that past generations seem to embrace/fall in line with.

Millenials also seem to think that if they improve the workplace efficiency once....they've earned their place for all time and be given the keys to the kingdom.....and when this doesn't happen....they get sulky for awhile.

I think there's also a disconnect in the millenial brain; that there isn't a realization that their parent worked hard and for a number of years for the McMansion that they were raised in and that there's an expectation that one should have said McMansion several months after keeping a job. 
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People in general have always favored instant gratification. I had friends who bought new cars & lived in big apartments in trendy neighborhoods while we drove beaters & lived in a "crappy" apartment. 2 yrs later we were homeowners.  Fiscal patience  is not easily learned.

 
i think the blame will be laid at globalism and the solution will be isolationism. Create jobs by bringing them home. Not saying it will work but i think that is where society is headed. 

 
The apartment boom in our area is out of control and rents are sky high. Everyone wants to live in the apartments but they can't be saving a dime which is setting them back even further. Great time to own apartments. 

 
Getzlaf15 said:
Are there no first time buyer programs in your state? We have a great program here in Idaho.  Two years of recent employment and a 620 score and they can get 0.5% down, 3.5 fixed.  Put about two dozen 19-28 year olds in homes last year on this. All hard working kids 

Payment winds up to be 200 to 300 less than rent for the same home. Rents are crazy here. 
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Buying a home with 0.5% down is a terrible idea.

 
dickey moe said:
Buying a home with 0.5% down is a terrible idea.
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No it's not.  3% is gifted and the payments on these homes are $200-$300 less than renting the same home.

I have several that bought two years ago and now have $15-25k equity on homes they bought for $140-$200k.

 
Milkman said:
They were great jobs when most the country was unionized. Now they pay about $10/hr. The companies spend the billions of dollars saved on stock buy backs instead of just paying their employees enough to buy their product.
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Ist that some kind of millenium math $10=$0?

*cause in the math I am familiar with having a ten dollar an hour job beats having no job, particularly if you have no money

 
NutterButter said:
It could certainly be replicated. It's not like the opportunity isn't there.  It's just not if people keep making those terrible choices you mentioned.  Curious when you were chosing this college and major, were your parents involved in this process and if so, what was their take on where these decisions would lead?
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I don't think they had a much input - I already had my mind made up. But they did both graduate from college themselves, send me to private school, then a "college prep" HS, and pay my way through college. How many people have those things going for them? Even without having to work through school, I just barely made it into a PhD program with funding for me. A lot of my colleagues go to professional doctoral schools where you end up with mortgage-level debt.

As a bit of perspective: when we were wrapping up a post-doc year, one of my friends told me that when she asked for $50k as a starting salary she got scoffed at. I recently interviewed for a doctoral-level job in Boston that paid around $70k. Rent in the area can be $2k/mo. and up. Buying a house or condo isn't even on the radar.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know how not-wealthy I am, and so I can only imagine how hard it is if you don't make a great decision when you're 18 or have things break in your favor. I don't think people make terrible decisions per se, just naive ones as adolescents, based on a cultural assumption that a college degree leads to a living wage. I find it troubling how tenuous that link is - how many safe career pathways could we even point to now, assuming someone has the aptitude and means to go to school? We can't all be web developers and engineers.

 
dickey moe said:
Buying a home with 0.5% down is a terrible idea.
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The more you can put down, the better ... no doubt. But Getzlaf is right about homebuying in 2017, especially in areas where rental pricing is high.

The "don't buy with less than 10-20% down" was more rock-solid advice in times of higher interest rates, especially back in the 80s with the 10%+ APR home loans.

 
msommer said:
Ist that some kind of millenium math $10=$0?

*cause in the math I am familiar with having a ten dollar an hour job beats having no job, particularly if you have no money
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No but you're never paying your student loans off on that or buying a house. 

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
My bio is also anecdotal.

I was born at the end of the baby boom.  My Dad was the son of a Dairy farmer and the first in his family to attend college, and subsequently Medical School.  My mom, the first in her family to attend college was a nurse.  They married, and good Catholics that they were started pumping out kids, and regularly.  My older brother is 12 months older and my next brother 10 months younger.  A furious pace for a man still in his internship so he worked full time, nights, while doing his internship.  We lived in a one bedroom apartment.  During my mom's pregnancy with my kid brother she contracted rheumatic fever. The impossibility of looking after two toddlers while pregnant and sick, and with my pops working and doing his internship meant I got fostered out to my grandparents.

My grandfather spoke German, Flemish, and a bit of English.  My grandmother spoke German, some English, and Gaelic, her first language.  Also in the house was a great grandmother who spoke Gaelic and Flemish only.  They were good but hard people.  We had indoor plumbing in the kitchen of the house, a pump.  They had a radio.  I stayed with them until I was 5 when I returned to my parents. 

Two months after joining my birth family they moved to the house I would be raised in.  Nice, 4,000 sq. ft., suburbs.  By then the family had grow some more so naturally I shared a room which I did all my life.  Going to school was problematic at first since it was taught in English.  Regardless I excelled and by Junior High was in all the advanced classes and was taking classes at Marquette University.  I sailed, very successfully, played football, stoned like a maniac, and started working officially on a work permit at 14. 

I had to work.  My folks made it clear that if I wanted college I would have to pay for it.  So I worked the 25 hours a week the State allowed, plus did odd jobs, painting and such to get extra cash.  Not a lot of 14 year olds had full time school, football or wrestling practice, and were working 30 hours or more each week.

I thought I would get a football scholarship.  I was large, farm boy strong because we were still expected to help out at grandpas, and quick.  I had a gift for physical mayhem and was drawing substantial interest from scouts.  Then my knee went.

Football and wrestling were now out.  I could not pass the physical required by the state to participate in sports my senior year.  Fortunately I had done well on the pre SAT's and the SAT's and was a national merit scholar.  I was accepted to every school I applied to except Stanford, which put me on their waiting list.  Harvard, Yale, Cornell, Notre Dame and the University of Chicago all admitted me, and had some financial aid and scholarships waiting, but not as much as the University of Rochester was offering if I enrolled in Chemical Engineering, so I did.  I hated it.

After, I went to the University of Wisconsin.  I had to work full time while there.  I did not want any debt.  I lived in places with roommates to share the cost.  One place was a sub-basement.  The ceilings were only 4 & a half feet tall.  I am certain it was not legal housing, but it was what we could afford. 

I applied to Law Schools after taking the LSATS on a drunken bet and rocking them. I was accepted at Harvard, Yale, UW, Michigan, among others, but not Stanford.  I went to a fourth tier #### ### school because my girlfriend was moving to the Twin Cities and because they offered partial help in a half scholarship.  Had I really thought I was intending to complete law school instead of dabbling I might have gone to a real school and accepted some debt. but I really was only running from the adult world at that point.  I worked, got by and graduated.

Up to this point in my life I had only 1 car, a 1966 Dodge Polaris Station wagon I had won in a poker game.  It had no floorboards anymore, no driver's side window, and no dash lights.  I also had  Honda 360 T motorcycle for a few months.   

Up to that point in my life I did not live alone, I rarely had transportation, no T.V., and had worked full time nearly continuously.  I did not frost my fair, wax my chest, tan, or believe that there were jobs I would not do.  I had shined shoes, swabbed urinals, dug fence posts wholes through a swamp.  I shoveled stables, worked landscaping and construction, and had a painting company.  I did not have a cell phone (not really invented yet except in their most rudimentary forms). I did not travel except by hitch hiking.  I did not have cable T.V.  I did not shop a designer stores, and I ate, primarily, generic food  from the supermarket and whatever I could bye from the farmer's market. 

As a young attorney I supplemented my income working at a porn video store, a garden center, and by teaching at the community college.  These were not a series of jobs, but jobs I held all at the same time.  I sacrificed things many take for granted.  No T.V., no cable T.V., small ####ty apartments, very cheap car, and no travel.

When it came time to buy a place I bought it in cash, no loan.  It was not much, a fixer-upper townhouse.  I fixed it up and sold it for a nice profit.  That profit and money saved bought me the house I live in now.  No mortgage, beyond the median price for the area but nothing special.

I now own a farm, my home,  a piece of property up in the mountains, all paid for.  I have a bit over a million set aside for retirement and have put $200,000 aside for my daughter for school or what not.

Several times I have turned down offers of private practice, offers that would be far more lucrative than the public service I choose.  I did  all right so far, nothing special, but I have been careful with money.  I would be better situated now but I have financially cared for my older brother for a dozen years now.  He is in a care facility.

I do not lament my life, I do not look down on those of my generation or other generations who have made different choices.  I do note, however, that there are choices and expectations. The school debt of grads lately is ridiculous.  Some of it is on disproportionate inflation in the charges (not the costs but the charges for) education, but part is also do to lifestyle choices.

I hope the generations find solutions each fitting their needs.  I do believe that blaming the preceding generation is a fools game.  Each preceding generation had a generation that preceded it leaving legacies of war, suspicion, pollution, and politcal and economic uncertainty.  The choices are work and sacrifice or #####ing, politically or otherwise.  #####ing does not create wealth.  Political redistribution of static amounts of wealth, do not increase wealth, they shift poverty.  Work at making the pie bigger, not planning a different way to slice it, at least not that only.
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Take out all of the fancy degrees and REALLY close to my life. Also agree with your philosophy GB.

 
Doug B said:
The more you can put down, the better ... no doubt. But Getzlaf is right about homebuying in 2017, especially in areas where rental pricing is high.

The "don't buy with less than 10-20% down" was more rock-solid advice in times of higher interest rates, especially back in the 80s with the 10%+ APR home loans.
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The fixed rate right now on these loans is 3.75%.  All last summer it was 3.25%.    $10,000 is around $44/month.  Why put that down? We have record low inventory. Demand is very high, yet we're only going up a stable 5-7% per year.   In a lot of higher priced markets that have seen 10-20% increases the past few years, I'd be cautious for sure.   I'm selling homes in the $130-200k range on this program...

 
Technically I'm a boomer, but at the younger end of the spectrum.  Most of the millenials that I interact with seem more mature than I was at that age.  I guess I dont really see why millenials get such a bad rap.  I know I wouldnt want to be just starting out my working career right now.  Although, my working career started a few years before Reagan, so that didnt turn out too well for me.  Still, I think its better then what 20 year olds today are looking at in their future.

One of the big issues is that wages have been stagnant and lots of factory jobs have gone away.  Those jobs are not coming back no matter what trump says.  Hell, my parents were far better off financially than I ever will be.  My dad worked in a factory and my Mom stayed home.  It's a whole different world today.

 
msommer said:
So, not taking that job will make you pay off your student loans?

Get in the game, millenials,
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Maybe they want to end "the game", or change it, make it better?  Some generation needs to do it.  $10/hour.... no way I get out of bed for that.

 
Johnnymac said:
Maybe they want to end "the game", or change it, make it better?  Some generation needs to do it.  $10/hour.... no way I get out of bed for that.
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I guess we'll just have to wait for you to change the world from your comfortable bed.

:popcorn:

or rather

:sleep:

 
Dragons & Gridirons said:
I don't think they had a much input - I already had my mind made up. But they did both graduate from college themselves, send me to private school, then a "college prep" HS, and pay my way through college. How many people have those things going for them? Even without having to work through school, I just barely made it into a PhD program with funding for me. A lot of my colleagues go to professional doctoral schools where you end up with mortgage-level debt.

As a bit of perspective: when we were wrapping up a post-doc year, one of my friends told me that when she asked for $50k as a starting salary she got scoffed at. I recently interviewed for a doctoral-level job in Boston that paid around $70k. Rent in the area can be $2k/mo. and up. Buying a house or condo isn't even on the radar.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that I know how not-wealthy I am, and so I can only imagine how hard it is if you don't make a great decision when you're 18 or have things break in your favor. I don't think people make terrible decisions per se, just naive ones as adolescents, based on a cultural assumption that a college degree leads to a living wage. I find it troubling how tenuous that link is - how many safe career pathways could we even point to now, assuming someone has the aptitude and means to go to school? We can't all be web developers and engineers.
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I don't think you need most of what was provided to you but you do need to choose a desired major which is typically a stem major.  This is simple supply and demand we're talking about.   Its nice to have something your passionate about but first and foremost, you need to find a career that pays the bills.  You always have the weekend or a 2nd career when you're 50 to pursue that passion.    Sure that doesn't apply to everyone but clearly the inverse is what's currently happening; way, way too many liberal arts majors and not nearly enough stem majors.    I heard it before this idea that you work in a city and therefore you live there as well.  That's nice and all, but if you can't afford it b/c you're just starting out, you rent out in the suburbs when rent is a lot cheaper and you bus or train like thousands of other people.  

 
Milkman said:
They were great jobs when most the country was unionized. Now they pay about $10/hr. The companies spend the billions of dollars saved on stock buy backs instead of just paying their employees enough to buy their product.
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Your numbers are a bit off, but I get your point. In my household we have two examples. My husband worked both union and non union in his trade and his pay went up about 30 percent and benefits went up about 70 percent. 

I am an educator, but I am non union, my mother and brother in law are both union. I make about 80 percent of what they make, but benefit wise they probably are about 50 percent higher. 

 
msudaisy26 said:
Your numbers are a bit off, but I get your point. In my household we have two examples. My husband worked both union and non union in his trade and his pay went up about 30 percent and benefits went up about 70 percent. 

I am an educator, but I am non union, my mother and brother in law are both union. I make about 80 percent of what they make, but benefit wise they probably are about 50 percent higher. 
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I get a little passionate about this stuff lol.

 
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