msudaisy26
Footballguy
Do you mind messaging me, the books or sites you used? I know my husband and I would probably enjoy reading this.
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New study out Millienials worse off than Boomers (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Milkman
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rockaction
Footballguy
I think you need to make a distinction between public and private sector unions to advance your argument.
I see tons of pro-union coverage.
I think the turn of the century also needs to be distinguished because the Wagner Act wasn't passed until 1937, and by then we had the buildup to war, and the reconstruction afterwards, which put downward pressure on unions and upward pressure on productivity.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Now they are painted as freeloading drunks that want everything handed to them without having to work for it, while ruining our economy.
rockaction
Footballguy
And employers were granted injunctions against unions from even existing.
The tactics unions used were different back then and is reflected as such.*
And unions often were democratic socialist fronts, but we're getting way off topic.
*By that I mean sit-downs, wildcats, and secondary strikes which are illegal today under the aegis of the original Wagner Act.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Also, w/r/t Gen Z being a great generation, remember when these things were being said about Millennials?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVVRb8L0Ur8
https://www.amazon.com/Millennials-Rising-Next-Great-Generation/dp/0375707190
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVVRb8L0Ur8
https://www.amazon.com/Millennials-Rising-Next-Great-Generation/dp/0375707190
msudaisy26
Footballguy
You are probably right on the positive pieces you see on unions now compared to back then. We are all a victim of the time we live in, and the fact that I married into a very pro-union family and they have been in some kind of union for the last 50 years could skew my views a little.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Also millennials are labeled as lazy, but that is the exact reputation Gen Xers had in the 90s.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
We are getting back to this point, at least in the midwest. Right to work, Prevailing wage laws are all either under attack or used to attack unions.
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msudaisy26
Footballguy
It seems like every generation says this about the next generation. I just think they are different, and different usually scares the masses.
rockaction
Footballguy
My brother heads his teacher's union for either his district or his town, so my family is involved as well. Plenty of pro-union coverage in the media; plenty of resentment by the public and the school boards.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think right-to-work is much different than yellow dog contracts or granting injunctive relief against mere organizing.
I think Ilov80s would do better describing this than I would; I just see a lot of distinctions between turn-of-the-century labor movements and modern ones in the organization, tactics, and perception thereof. But I'm more of a dilettante. I took Labor Law in law school and delved into the history as a backdrop, and I've read my Howard Zinn and also a more modern author (Kevin Carson), but my brother schools me on labor law and the pressures and rules just from being the union rep.
I'm also deeply free market, so I take more of Ayn Rand's approach to unions. Private unions and organization, fine. If subjected to market pressures and everyone is union, then unionism does sort of rule the day. Public unions, where public services are providing and bargaining is essentially contra-public, disastrous.
But this is not my area of expertise.
I think Ilov80s would do better describing this than I would; I just see a lot of distinctions between turn-of-the-century labor movements and modern ones in the organization, tactics, and perception thereof. But I'm more of a dilettante. I took Labor Law in law school and delved into the history as a backdrop, and I've read my Howard Zinn and also a more modern author (Kevin Carson), but my brother schools me on labor law and the pressures and rules just from being the union rep.
I'm also deeply free market, so I take more of Ayn Rand's approach to unions. Private unions and organization, fine. If subjected to market pressures and everyone is union, then unionism does sort of rule the day. Public unions, where public services are providing and bargaining is essentially contra-public, disastrous.
But this is not my area of expertise.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Cost mostly.
Higher education is like religion to me. I have as beauteous a love for the idea and possibilties of temples of learning as i do for the chance of a God, but religion & college are abiding institutions because of their means for population control, not the ends of their aspirations. Did not even apply to college - mostly in vengeful response to a father who was a scholarship boy and presumed i would be to the extent that he announced he would be spending that disposable portion of his income on vacations rather than college fund, but also because i wanted to see if i could make my way on my own - but saw a lot of them on tour and they looked like orgy pits and branding pens. That would be just barely excusable now except for the frightful and mostly useless cost.
If America is to remain the Land of the Big Idea and, thus, the beacon of progress for the world, we must be always willing to paddle the canoe faster than the rapids which would propel us toward the rocks. We cannot be willing to condemn coal hollers and steel towns as anachronisms and not hallowed halls and Top 5 Conferences.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
To try and connect the ends of this thread, at my school we have some issues with younger staff members joining the unions. They are very resistant. It isn't that they are anti-union, they just don't want to give them money because they don't see the benefit to it. It takes a lot of explaining on why this important, but some are very selfish or short sighted.
rockaction
Footballguy
They still do. They did in the nineties, and they do now. My higher education experience was akin to a sleep away camp. My boarding school experience in high school and then my non-profit job where I got to read for five years taught me way more than my own self-discipline allowed me at the university I went to.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
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msommer
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
So you are really only speaking to higher ed? Almost every college has online programs. I got my masters online. I do think socialization and connections are major reason college is important and can't fully be replaced by online classes. We argue whether the current level of socialization is good or bad, but it is important.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
msudaisy26
Footballguy
This is what I was getting at. For primary education there is no way you can have it all online or even most of it online without having a very bad effect on the future generations, and I agree with you about the bolded part for the 1st four years of college.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
I'm saying we gotta strip the ####er down, education top-to-bottom, as surely as we do govt and our manufacturing economy. i have some fairly revolutionary theories on education, esPECially @ the beginning, which i will eventually outline (after the more urgent & important behavioral stuff) on the blog i'll be releasing this year but, for the purposes of this thread, i'm insisting that higher education exists as it does as a social institution more than a laboratory of learning and is a Leviathan which deserves to be founding gasping its last on the shores of progress without a major overhaul.
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msommer
Footballguy
So if it is so important to party for four years while getting a degree that won't get you a job, why are people complaiining about the price then?
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I didn't say party. Now there are a lot of people that choose to use college as little more than a big party. That's on them and it could end up having a longterm negative impact on their life (fail out of school, develop drinking/drug/sex problems, not getting positioned to gain employment, etc). There are people that do more than just party at college. They meet life long friends, make connections with future potential employers, do internships, join clubs, play sports, do charity, do research, etc.
msommer
Footballguy
I would guess that there is a significant correlation between them that see it as a big party and those that come out with a massive debt and a hard time getting ahead
Ilov80s
Footballguy
I am definitely interested to read your blog. However, I will leave this post alone and it could have it's own thread and would take us way off track.
msudaisy26
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
As you said, it's a guess, but lets not act like Gen X didn't party their asses off in college.
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msommer
Footballguy
Of course we did. And there were a lot of (what turned ut to be) useless education going on.
Like last year's draft it might be early to pass judgment on the Millennials, or at least broadbrushing them.
If I may offer an opinion, then it seems as if, while many acknowledge that the leeway for slacking off has steadily reduced since the boomer's heyday, the Millenials seem to whine more about it (could be an effect of more efficient communications) and do less about it (while at the same time wanting to change the world, just as soon as they finish their cafe latte or maybe tomorrow)
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
fair enough
If the powers-that-be allow it, i'll be promoting it pretty heavily around here when the time comes. It was supposed to open last fall, but the key to it - beyond thrice-weekly columning - is a handbook for self-reform (using personal inventory, behavioral checklists & emotional waste management to clear the way for happiness and productivity) that is being written for posterity as much as anything and, therefore, brings out my natural fussiness in extremis, causing delays. Will keep you apprised.....
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Funny, people said a lot of the same stuff about the lazy self absorbed "Friends generation".
msommer
Footballguy
They seemed like a bunch of wankers, the lot of 'em
(The characters in "Friends", obviously)
But at least most of them had jobs
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Yeah, they worked really hard, earned evey thing they had. Friends was the ultimate Gen X fantasy. You live with all your friends, drink coffee all day and almost never have to worry about anything except you and your friends personal problems. Just kidding, I am on the border between Gen X and Millen, depends what source you look at. I'm either a young Xer or old Millen. I see both sides, but self identify with the latter.They seemed like a bunch of wankers, the lot of 'em
(The characters in "Friends", obviously)
But at least most of them had jobs
bigbottom
Footballguy
I don't think that Millenials are lazy so much as they just have different priorities. They'll work hard for something they believe in, but when you aren't motivated by material wealth or career achievement benchmarks (climbing the corporate ladder), then you'll focus on things other than historical measures of success and ambition, which leads to a perception by prior generations of a lack of work ethic (i.e., laziness). This is a rank generalization of course, and based in large part on my anecdotal experiences. But a fair number of millenials I've worked with have the attitude that they're okay making less money if they don't have to work as many hours, thus freeing them to pursue other passions. Many in my world consider that a hallmark of laziness, but others may consider it evidence of a healthy outlook on life.
msommer
Footballguy
The interesting moment comes when the children of the Millennials start expressing their worldview. How close or far from their parents will they fall?
msommer
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I think Gen X was labeled more as apathetic; in that there was desire to not want what their parents had.
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I think there's a difference in this case.
I think Gen X was more about the idea that they were looking for their own version of the American Dream that didn't jibe with that of their parents. I don't recall Gen-X being a bunch of whiners about not having the material things (or career paths/advantages) that their parents deemed important. They might have only wanted to be part time fry cooks with ample opportunity to hang out with their friends....but I don't recall them clamoring that fry cooks should be paid as much as a mid-level manager.
To that, I think millenials want....but they don't want to work for it. It's a generalized view obviously...but I stand by my observations that millenials want the things that their parents have(be it home ownership/well paying jobs with a good amount of vacation/flexible "on their terms" hours at work/ etc.).....without realizing or acknowledging that their parents spent a long time to achieve that.
wikkidpissah
Footballguy
Most decidedly not the "guiding" principle of capitalism. One is smart to expect utter selfishness & greed from human beings, but not to accept nor allow it. Now that we are closing in on 40 years of customer culture, I'm sure it feels that way to most FFAppers, but citizen culture - whether solicited by one's immediate community or religious, ethical or governing institutions - is an ethos which should and has been (til very recently) emphasized with equal vigor as enterprise for the duration of the American Miracle.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Hard to generalize ... around here, the fast food places are almost exclusively by young adults from lower-middle-class-to-poor backgrounds. Almost exclusively minorities, as well. Some high school age, but many more 20-somethings.
I am curious about what jobs the typical suburban white teenagers get around here these days. Other than Chik-Fil-A ... it ain't fast food.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Sabertooth
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
PIK95
Footballguy
I never see kids at these places. Usually just burned out looking adults. I would't let my kid work in ff in fear that he would pick up a meth habit from management.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
James Daulton
Footballguy
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