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new workplace gripe - they are taking away a week's vacation. ***UPDATE: UNresolved.*** (1 Viewer)

nirad3 said:
Update?
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Went well. It was a screening interview with HR. Talking to prospective manager tomorrow. Step 3 is talking to the CEO if things go well.

It seems the previous person in this role was let go because they changed material without consulting with the firmware guys & screwed everything up. Cost a couple months of production. HR woman claimed that was a communication problem....but from that description, it's not communication, that's not doing basic engineering due diligence or having a good ECR process.

I'm a bit spooked about the viability of the company. I'm not convinced I see the value in their product, and from what I can see snooping LinkedIn, most of the technical staff is very young & green.
 
moleculo said:
that's not doing basic engineering due diligence or having a good ECR process.
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Yeah, that means their systems suck. You should ask about the change notice and release process.

I worked for a company for 5 years that when I started, they didn't even have part numbers. Just a folder on a server with 2D drawings in them with a description in the file name. No real revision or doc control system. Blew my mind. Needless to say, i created a rudimentary process in the first month there that did OK until I left.

We did have a product recall where a developer allowed a supplier to change material on a part after a verbal discussion. He didn't consult the engineers. He didn't make a change to the drawing. He didn't sample the new material, just allowed a running change because the spec'd material wasn't in stock. I nearly got fired for that screw up because I was the head of the engineering group.
 
The Z Machine said:
moleculo said:
that's not doing basic engineering due diligence or having a good ECR process.
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Yeah, that means their systems suck. You should ask about the change notice and release process.

I worked for a company for 5 years that when I started, they didn't even have part numbers. Just a folder on a server with 2D drawings in them with a description in the file name. No real revision or doc control system. Blew my mind. Needless to say, i created a rudimentary process in the first month there that did OK until I left.

We did have a product recall where a developer allowed a supplier to change material on a part after a verbal discussion. He didn't consult the engineers. He didn't make a change to the drawing. He didn't sample the new material, just allowed a running change because the spec'd material wasn't in stock. I nearly got fired for that screw up because I was the head of the engineering group.
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Yeah, I've seen that crap at my company too, and we have all sorts of processes in place. The best systems are worthless if people work around it.

Regardless - I think that's the kind of thing I can bring to the table, and if they are feeling pain from a screw-up, it makes it a bit easier to implement something.
 
Heres the kicker: because it's a tech startup, it may not be likely for me to negotiate for more vacation time... Which is the catalyst for this whole thing.

HR woman said PTO is 10 days, but something she's pushing to increase. I didn't say anything - that's not the time to negotiate. I need to sell myself and what I can do first.
 
fruity pebbles said:
moleculo said:
the moops said:
10 days? WTF that is gross
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Apparently par for the course for tech startups.
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Not sure how you expect to attract talent with two weeks of vacation.
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Depends if they include PTO as sick days too, so it could be even less than 2 weeks vacation. Myy old job did that. My new job has 7 sick days a year plus PTO, and as cheap as they are I still got 3 weeks of vacation to start and at the end of my second year it went to 4 weeks.
 
dickey moe said:
fruity pebbles said:
moleculo said:
the moops said:
10 days? WTF that is gross
Click to expand...
Apparently par for the course for tech startups.
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Not sure how you expect to attract talent with two weeks of vacation.
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They can't. That's indicative of why they mainly have green employees.
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She said unlimited sick days. But they also include one day per quarter for "health" (aka mental health day), plus one day per year you can dedicate to volunteering at a charity.
 
msudaisy26 said:
fruity pebbles said:
moleculo said:
the moops said:
10 days? WTF that is gross
Click to expand...
Apparently par for the course for tech startups.
Click to expand...
Not sure how you expect to attract talent with two weeks of vacation.
Click to expand...

Depends if they include PTO as sick days too, so it could be even less than 2 weeks vacation. Myy old job did that. My new job has 7 sick days a year plus PTO, and as cheap as they are I still got 3 weeks of vacation to start and at the end of my second year it went to 4 weeks.
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PTO is usually one bucket. It saves company money by not having to allocate vacation vs sick time. If they are separate as you have it shouldn't be referred to PTO it should be sick & vacation or sick & annual or something like that

But in general I doubt they would say you get 10 PTO and vacation..... since vacation/sick is all an umbrella under PTO
 
Last edited:
This morning's interview went well. Going to move on to CEO next. I'm the exact guy they need to go to the next level and this is exactly the kind of product I'm super excited to work on.

One conversation I've been dreading is "So why are you looking to leave?" How do I answer that without coming off as bitter and disgruntled. I managed to do that by talking about recent change in management yada yada. But later on, I had a better answer: I don't have any input in our product line, much less creative.

This is a true story and has happened to me at several companies: I come up with a cool new concept, make a functioning prototype, and do my dog & pony show...only to be met with, "well, our competitors don't do anything like that so we have no idea how it will sell. Thanks for the idea but we are going to pass and do the same thing we have always done."
 
Well, if the main reason you are leaving is the vacation day issue, then I would make damn sure I got the vacation I wanted in writing on a formal job offer.

And if the CEO asks why you are leaving, be honest: "I did not feel valued at my previous company and did not receive some of the things I was promised as an employee."
 
moleculo said:
Heres the kicker: because it's a tech startup, it may not be likely for me to negotiate for more vacation time... Which is the catalyst for this whole thing.

HR woman said PTO is 10 days, but something she's pushing to increase. I didn't say anything - that's not the time to negotiate. I need to sell myself and what I can do first.
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So your thinking about moving to a place that gives you less PTO than current? Isnt this cutting off your nose to spite your face?
 
I like the "want to have more input" angle. Marry that with the didn't feel valued aspect but be careful with coming on too strong with the grievance piece. Employers want to know what value you bring and they may be turned off if you come across as too bitter at being "mistreated" and not want to deal with a new employee who could become a "victim" working for them, even if you're grievance is 100 percent legit. Keep some of that aspect to yourself.
 
skol asylum said:
I like the "want to have more input" angle. Marry that with the didn't feel valued aspect but be careful with coming on too strong with the grievance piece. Employers want to know what value you bring and they may be turned off if you come across as too bitter at being "mistreated" and not want to deal with a new employee who could become a "victim" working for them, even if you're grievance is 100 percent legit. Keep some of that aspect to yourself.
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Totally agree with this. I've passed on people before after they spent (in my estimation) way too much time whining about they're previous employer. It's not a harbinger for the future.
 
skol asylum said:
I like the "want to have more input" angle. Marry that with the didn't feel valued aspect but be careful with coming on too strong with the grievance piece. Employers want to know what value you bring and they may be turned off if you come across as too bitter at being "mistreated" and not want to deal with a new employee who could become a "victim" working for them, even if you're grievance is 100 percent legit. Keep some of that aspect to yourself.
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100%. Being very careful to not be "that guy".
 
jobarules said:
moleculo said:
Heres the kicker: because it's a tech startup, it may not be likely for me to negotiate for more vacation time... Which is the catalyst for this whole thing.

HR woman said PTO is 10 days, but something she's pushing to increase. I didn't say anything - that's not the time to negotiate. I need to sell myself and what I can do first.
Click to expand...
So your thinking about moving to a place that gives you less PTO than current? Isnt this cutting off your nose to spite your face?
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Seems as though he is going to insist on more, but only if they offer him the job first
 
moleculo said:
One conversation I've been dreading is "So why are you looking to leave?" How do I answer that without coming off as bitter and disgruntled. I managed to do that by talking about recent change in management yada yada. But later on, I had a better answer: I don't have any input in our product line, much less creative.
Click to expand...
You tell them the truth without being bitter. You were promised things at time of hire that ended up not happening as agreed. It was the straw that broke the camels back after being hindered from developing improvements to the product line which is what you desire to be more involved with.
 
jobarules said:
So your thinking about moving to a place that gives you less PTO than current? Isnt this cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Click to expand...
Not really. Losing out on the vacation was the catalyst for the disgruntlement but it was more about having an agreement in place for one thing at time of hire that was then not followed through on by the company. That leads to a lack of trust and the reason for wanting to leave. At least that is how I would be looking at it. If I can get to a better place then the actual vacation time may not be as important as it was at the previous place.
 
jobarules said:
moleculo said:
Heres the kicker: because it's a tech startup, it may not be likely for me to negotiate for more vacation time... Which is the catalyst for this whole thing.

HR woman said PTO is 10 days, but something she's pushing to increase. I didn't say anything - that's not the time to negotiate. I need to sell myself and what I can do first.
Click to expand...
So your thinking about moving to a place that gives you less PTO than current? Isnt this cutting off your nose to spite your face?
Click to expand...
Yup. To be fair, I was disgruntled far before this vacation stuff. I very nearly started searching for a new job over New Year's, but decided to give it 3 months to see if things would get better. They didn't.

My dust-up with HR was icing on the cake.
 
I have a lot of gripes with my current company. Crappy management since day 1. I have been here 7 years and I think we have had 7 presidents over that time, counting the interim guys.

In summary, it's a very toxic environment right now.
Every decision I make, everything I do, is second guessed and questioned. So much pressure is put on by people who have no clue how things work, and my expertise is ignored.

It feels like I'm paddling a canoe upstream carrying 5 passengers, all of whom are pointing out which direction to go (different directions) and then questioning me when I hit a snag.

Here is my specific problem: we have a product (X). X costs more than we want, so they decided to build it in China. We contacted a Chinese company to redesign it to bring costs down by 30%. It is my job to work with that company. Had management talked to me first, I would have told them X does not perform well in testing, and asking a Chinese OEM to reduce cost and improve performance was a HUGE ask.

Predictably, things aren't going well testing-wise - behind schedule, etc. Now, I have to go in front of a "steering committee" to report on test results and next steps...except no one on the committee has ever gotten a product similar to mine to pass, or even understand how things work. A couple of guys have been successful with less complex products but have not grasped why this product is more difficult.

At this point, I'm not focusing
to fix the problem so much as I am trying to anticipate questions that will be asked.

I'm pretty sure my project manager bad-mouths me to the president on a nearly daily basis. He told her if he was on this, it would have been solved in two weeks. I have no idea how much she listens to him. In January, I told my boss that I won't work with him on another project ever again, even if that means my next project is with another company. But he is still there and no plans to do anything about him.

TL/DR:

I've been disgruntled for a while and harboring a lot of ill will that I'm not happy with. Feeling so much pressure right now. When HR pulled this crap, I broke. I can't take it anymore. I need a fresh start.
 
The Z Machine said:
moleculo said:
and asking a Chinese OEM to reduce cost and improve performance was a HUGE ask
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No duh. Reduce cost and improve performance at the same time when the OEM aren't tied into the product history or the main market?

GLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
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Yeah. After we had a signed contract I was reviewing our test requirements. They specifically pointed out our most difficult test and said, "This load case is very difficult. We think this should be not required." no ****. I wish I could make that happen. Highlighted to me how little they know about our regulatory environment or the US market.
 
If you get asked why you're leaving, keep it simple and generic. No need to talk about vacation time or create any yellow flags where there were none. If it comes up, say that the past company has changed leadership and you're looking for something more predictable. No future employer is going to categorize themselves as unpredictable, so this is essentially never seen as a negative on your record.
 
Brony said:
If you get asked why you're leaving, keep it simple and generic. No need to talk about vacation time or create any yellow flags where there were none. If it comes up, say that the past company has changed leadership and you're looking for something more predictable. No future employer is going to categorize themselves as unpredictable, so this is essentially never seen as a negative on your record.
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Agree. Dont get into specifics. You get too specific and they ask questions and you have to get more specific. Then you start sounding like the stapler guy in Office Space.
 
Brony said:
If you get asked why you're leaving, keep it simple and generic. No need to talk about vacation time or create any yellow flags where there were none. If it comes up, say that the past company has changed leadership and you're looking for something more predictable. No future employer is going to categorize themselves as unpredictable, so this is essentially never seen as a negative on your record.
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Fantastic advice. Spot on.
 
Gally said:
moleculo said:
One conversation I've been dreading is "So why are you looking to leave?" How do I answer that without coming off as bitter and disgruntled. I managed to do that by talking about recent change in management yada yada. But later on, I had a better answer: I don't have any input in our product line, much less creative.
Click to expand...
You tell them the truth without being bitter. You were promised things at time of hire that ended up not happening as agreed. It was the straw that broke the camels back after being hindered from developing improvements to the product line which is what you desire to be more involved with.
Click to expand...

Last sentence is fine. Don't even bring up the vacation issue.
 
Update: I got an offer from the tech startup. I really like the role, weighing it out right now.

upsides:
  • 100% WFH
  • awesome opportunity to get back into high tech.
  • great personal and professional growth
  • stock options. I have no idea what they are worth. I need more details on this.
  • unlimited sick days
  • 4 "personal health" days

downsides:
  • only 10 days of PTO, plus 7 holidays. There are 4 "personal health" days. And, I assume with 100% WFH, I can do a good bit of "working" remotely.
  • medical is a good bit more expensive.
  • no 401(k)
  • salary is $5k less than I told them I was at now.
  • combine the above three and I need about $15k more than the initial offer. I think that may be within the realm of negotiation.
Obviously, the salary and the PTO are sticking points that need to be discussed further, especially since the whole PTO bit is what sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place.
 
moleculo said:
Obviously, the salary and the PTO are sticking points that need to be discussed further, especially since the whole PTO bit is what sent me down the rabbit hole in the first place.
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I think the bigger thing than the flat quantity of PTO was that the previous employer welched on their promise to you. Yes, more PTO is important to you but starting fresh with 100% WFH you may not really miss the additional time if the work environment is good and better for you.
 
Since it's WFH, the PTO wouldn't bother me. If the stock options are worth enough, the 401k wouldn't either. Medical is what it is so it all comes down to simply negotiating salary. You need 15k so I'd counter at 30k.
 
Going from 4 weeks PTO to 2 weeks PTO is pretty severe, particularly when you were counting on 5 weeks and putting a premium on time off. I guess the 4 personal days could partially bridge the gap assuming you currently have no personal day benefit.
 
jobarules said:
They made you an offer BELOW your current salary? Thats insane
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Well, I’ll assume he was precise with his language:

“salary is $5k less than I told them I was at now.”

So I would say they made him an offer below what they were told was his current salary.

Of course, that may very well still be insane, particularly with more expensive benefits, no 401k, and chintzy PTO. A lot riding on those options.
 
bigbottom said:
jobarules said:
They made you an offer BELOW your current salary? Thats insane
Click to expand...

Well, I’ll assume he was precise with his language:

“salary is $5k less than I told them I was at now.”

So I would say they made him an offer below what they were told was his current salary.

Of course, that may very well still be insane, particularly with more expensive benefits, no 401k, and chintzy PTO. A lot riding on those options.
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exactly.
 
fruity pebbles said:
jobarules said:
They made you an offer BELOW your current salary? Thats insane
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To be fair he doesn't really know cause he doesn't know what the stock options are worth.
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yea - definitely want to know A LOT more here - isn't that the reason why most people go with a start up?

this seems like the main reason why going with a start-up isn't typically going to be an apples-to-apples compensation - if an experienced person is looking for traditional security and benefits - it doesn't seem the place.
 
shuke said:
How far do you think they are from IPO or purchase? Are they options or RSUs?

Also DON'T EVER TELL THEM YOUR SALARY.
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From what I can tell, I'm on the high end of my salary band, adjusted for title, education, location, etc. I know I'm priced out of other positions I have inquired about.

I obviously need to know more about them options to be able to judge this offer.
 
I countered their offer, asking for more salary and PTO using my current as justification. They bumped the salary up to $5k short of where I am now and tacked on a $5k signing bonus. As far as PTO, I provided dates of vacations I have booked already, they are going to exclude those from the standard PTO. They also increased my stock options.

So, after one year it nets out to roughly the same as I would expect from anywhere else. If their product takes off, I have the assurance they will re-visit their benefits package (including PTO which they know sucks)...and I will be in a position for a promotion, and I will claw back that salary I'm giving up now. No promises of course, but there is real potential for exponential growth.

If things don't work out after a year, I find something else. Not a big deal. I know my skills are marketable and transferrable, so I'm not afraid to take a chance. And, a one-year stint at a tech start-up would not hurt my resume...at all.

Also, in one year the non-compete I have with my current employer expires, so there's that.

I'm going to accept the offer as soon as I can understand the prospects of the options.
 
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