NFL MVP End-of-the-season update (with poll added) (1 Viewer)

[valhallan]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The Chargers were 8-8. League MVPs do not come from 8-8 teams.

Then why did you put him on the poll?

 

[Smeagol]

You honestly think that Pennington was more important to the Dolphins than Peyton Manning was to the Colts? Or Michael Turner was to the Falcons?

I do. But, I would vote for Rivers over all of them

Yes, that 8-8 record in a ridiculously awful division with two of those wins gift wrapped by Herm Edwards, is certainly deserving of the MVP award. Hands down.

If Rivers had much better players around him, his team would have gone 14-2. I don't know why that would make Rivers more deserving of any MVP because his hypothetical teammates are stronger and faster than his real teammates.

The Chargers lost a handful of close games this year. Biggest loss of the season? 9 points. They've been in every game this year. W1 against Carolina - Rivers leads them to two scores late in the 4th quarter. Panthers score on a last second play to win the game.W2 against Denver - We know about this one.W8 against New Orleans - Rivers and the offense play well but the D stinks it up.W10 against KC - Rivers leads the team down the field for the go ahead TD in the 4th quarter. They almost lose the game because the D can't stop the Chiefs.W11 against Pittsburgh - Bad weather. Rivers leads them down the field for the go ahead FG in the fourth. The D can't stop Big Ben.W12 against Indy - The offense scores 10 points in four minutes to take the lead with 1 minute remaining. Indy kicks the winning FG with time expiring. W15 against KC - Rivers leads the offense to three scores in the final quarter and a half, including two in the final two minutes of the game to win. Charger homers have a better idea as to how these games went. But it looks to me that Rivers played well enough and was clutch late into the games. I can't remember the last time a team lost so many close games in a season. They could have gone atleast 11-5 if the D wasn't so terrible in the clutch.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The Chargers were 8-8. League MVPs do not come from 8-8 teams.

Then why did you put him on the poll?

Because he has been talked about in this conversation enough people to warrnat his inclusion. I specifically said that I included the players who have been talked about the most. Plus, I knew the Chargers fans would cry like little girls if I didn't include him, so including him was partially done to avoid an eventual hijacking of this thread. Besides, someone can be worthy of finishing in the top 10 without being a serious contender for the number 1 spot. Philip Rivers fits the bill.

 

[djcolts]

W12 against Indy - The offense scores 10 points in four minutes to take the lead with 1 minute remaining. Indy kicks the winning FG with time expiring.

They tied the game with a minute remaining. Colts won by 3.

 

[Ghost Rider]

W12 against Indy - The offense scores 10 points in four minutes to take the lead with 1 minute remaining. Indy kicks the winning FG with time expiring.

They tied the game with a minute remaining. Colts won by 3.

Stop stating facts. It makes it harder for Chargers fans to play the "what if" game in their effort to argue that the QB of their 8-8 team should be the MVP of the entire league.

 

[valhallan]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda. The Chargers were 8-8. League MVPs do not come from 8-8 teams.

Then why did you put him on the poll?

Because he has been talked about in this conversation enough people to warrnat his inclusion. I specifically said that I included the players who have been talked about the most. Plus, I knew the Chargers fans would cry like little girls if I didn't include him, so including him was partially done to avoid an eventual hijacking of this thread. Besides, someone can be worthy of finishing in the top 10 without being a serious contender for the number 1 spot. Philip Rivers fits the bill.

Well I think in a year where there's no clear frontrunner, it's entirely possible to have an MVP that comes from a team with fewer wins than your normal candidate. As Smeagol pointed out above, the defense let the team down repeatedly after Rivers had put them in a position to win. He spent all year engineering comebacks because the defense was a sieve. So there's some qualitative reasoning, but we can also point to some quantitative arguments:1st in passer rating (8 points above 2nd place)

1st in TD passes (tied with Brees)

40% of passes went for first downs (league leader)

I think those numbers are even more impressive when you consider the Chargers were behind in nearly every game.

No doubt Manning will get it, but I just don't see how his season was more impressive than Rivers'. Every player has multiple body parts hurting, so I'm just not buying this "let's give it to Peyton because he was hurt" crap. Manning and the Colts did what they always do - pass a lot and win 12 games. Rivers outplayed his previous numbers with a team that melted down defensively and aging superstars around him offensively.

Not trying to convince you, just giving my thought process on this.

ETA - I'm not a Chargers fan and really don't like Rivers at all

 

[Ghost Rider]

NO's defense was almost as bad as SD's was, and Rivers had much more of a running game than Brees did, yet Brees led his team to the same record, while also playing in one of the two toughest divisions, while Rivers led his team to a division title in an awful division.

Given all of that, if we are going to play this "what if" game, then Drew Brees is just as deserving of the MVP award as Philip Rivers, if not moreso, especially when you consider that almost all of Brees' main weapons on offense missed significant time due to injuries this season.

 

[valhallan]

NO's defense was almost as bad as SD's was, and Rivers had much more of a running game than Brees did, yet Brees led his team to the same record, while also playing in one of the two toughest divisions, while Rivers led his team to a division win at 8-8 in an awful division. Given all of that, if we are going to play this "what if" game, then Drew Brees is much more deserving of the MVP award than Philip Rivers.

Well as a Saints fan, I don't think Brees is deserving. Two games stick out in my mind:Week 2 at Washington - intercepted with 3 minutes left in a 5-point gameWeek 13 at Tampa - two interceptions in the final 2:33 of a 3-point gameAdditionally:Week 5 vs Minn. - Two ints, lossWeek 9 at Atl - Three ints, lossWeek 15 at Chi - Two ints, lossThose were all the teams New Orleans needed to beat to make the playoffs and he played poorly every time.He's more of a compiler than anything else, considering he led the league in attempts yet again. It's nice to have a good QB in New Orleans, but I just didn't have any "thank god we have Drew" moments this year. Maybe that's just fandom getting in the way of judgment.

 

[Two Deep]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

 

[Ghost Rider]

NO's defense was almost as bad as SD's was, and Rivers had much more of a running game than Brees did, yet Brees led his team to the same record, while also playing in one of the two toughest divisions, while Rivers led his team to a division win at 8-8 in an awful division. Given all of that, if we are going to play this "what if" game, then Drew Brees is much more deserving of the MVP award than Philip Rivers.

Well as a Saints fan, I don't think Brees is deserving. Two games stick out in my mind:Week 2 at Washington - intercepted with 3 minutes left in a 5-point gameWeek 13 at Tampa - two interceptions in the final 2:33 of a 3-point gameHe's more of a compiler than anything else, considering he led the league in attempts yet again. It's nice to have a good QB in New Orleans, but I just didn't have any "thank god we have Drew" moments this year. Maybe that's just fandom getting in the way of judgment.

I do not think Brees should win, either, but all I am saying is, he is just as deserving as Rivers is. Also, he led some great comebacks in the Chicago and Carolina games, but then the defense gave them right back at the end. And he could have had a few more 4th quarter comebacks in the Denver and Minnesota games, had he had a reliable kicker. Both of those games were winnable had Gramatica hit the FGs near the end of both games (both opponents still could have come back to tie or win, though). My point is, while Brees might have struggled in a few games late (the ones you pointed out), he did come up big near the end of some other games. Like I said, he is not the MVP, but he had a great season, and he had less to work with than Rivers (and both have bonehead head coaches).

 

[djcolts]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period. That is why there is a separate "Offensive Player of the Year" award - because often the MVP (though not in the last 4 years, but likely this year) is not the same as the offensive player with the best stat year.2. Rivers didn't make the Pro Bowl because they vote on the team way too soon in the season. At the time of the voting, the Chargers were 4 and 8. That was bad timing, and probably they should change that.

 

[valhallan]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period.

And you clearly don't get that this is a discussion thread and Rivers was included on the poll. No one here supporting Rivers thinks he will win, we just think he should.

 

[Two Deep]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period. That is why there is a separate "Offensive Player of the Year" award - because often the MVP (though not in the last 4 years, but likely this year) is not the same as the offensive player with the best stat year.2. Rivers didn't make the Pro Bowl because they vote on the team way too soon in the season. At the time of the voting, the Chargers were 4 and 8. That was bad timing, and probably they should change that.

Yet even at 8-8 he led his team to a divison title. Manning led his team to second place.

 

[switz]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period. That is why there is a separate "Offensive Player of the Year" award - because often the MVP (though not in the last 4 years, but likely this year) is not the same as the offensive player with the best stat year.2. Rivers didn't make the Pro Bowl because they vote on the team way too soon in the season. At the time of the voting, the Chargers were 4 and 8. That was bad timing, and probably they should change that.

Yet even at 8-8 he led his team to a divison title. Manning led his team to second place.

Was Rivers recovering from injury? Did he have no running game? A messed up OL?Rivers was a good QB this year, but Manning was a GREAT QB this year. Manning carried his team to a 12-4 record and the playoffs, Rivers team has a 8-8 record, despite far inferior competition.

I just don't see the argument.

 

[David Yudkin]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period. That is why there is a separate "Offensive Player of the Year" award - because often the MVP (though not in the last 4 years, but likely this year) is not the same as the offensive player with the best stat year.2. Rivers didn't make the Pro Bowl because they vote on the team way too soon in the season. At the time of the voting, the Chargers were 4 and 8. That was bad timing, and probably they should change that.

Yet even at 8-8 he led his team to a divison title. Manning led his team to second place.

Was Rivers recovering from injury? Did he have no running game? A messed up OL?Rivers was a good QB this year, but Manning was a GREAT QB this year. Manning carried his team to a 12-4 record and the playoffs, Rivers team has a 8-8 record, despite far inferior competition.

I just don't see the argument.

Actually, Rivers WAS recovering from injury. And the record of Colts oppoenents was 127-128-1. The Chargers oppoenents went 132-124.

 

[djcolts]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period.

And you clearly don't get that this is a discussion thread and Rivers was included on the poll. No one here supporting Rivers thinks he will win, we just think he should.

I was responding to what was bolded above. I clearly get Rivers should be discussed, but I'm not going to take the insult that I don't think Rivers should win because his name is Rivers and not Manning.

 

[Tau837]

Was Rivers recovering from injury? Did he have no running game? A messed up OL?Rivers was a good QB this year, but Manning was a GREAT QB this year. Manning carried his team to a 12-4 record and the playoffs, Rivers team has a 8-8 record, despite far inferior competition. I just don't see the argument.

Look, I don't think Rivers will win MVP. Heck, if he isn't voted into the Pro Bowl as one of the top 3 QBs in the AFC, despite leading the league in TDs and QB rating, it's quite obvious that he won't get any MVP votes. But he deserves strong consideration.Aside from all that, your post is horrible.Are you aware that Rivers had two knee surgeries last January due to a torn ACL?How bad were the Colts' OL problems? The Chargers' starting center, Hardwick, missed most of preseason and the first 3 games of the season due to a foot injury, then played himself back into shape in season. The Chargers' Pro Bowl LT, McNeill, missed most of preseason and the first 2 games of the season due to a neck injury, then played himself back into shape in season. The Chargers' Pro Bowl LG, Dielman, missed 1 game later in the season.LOFL at saying Rivers was good and Manning was great this season. Why, because Manning had a better defense? The Colts are #11 in yards allowed and #7 in points allowed, compared to #25 and #15, respectively, for San Diego.And about the "inferior competition"... the Colts played 10 games against teams that finished .500 or better... San Diego played 11. The Colts played 7 games against teams that finished with winning records... San Diego played 8. The cumulative record of the Colts' opponents, not including their games against the Colts, is 123-116-1. The cumulative record of the Chargers' opponents, not including their games against the Chargers, is 124-116. Doesn't look like "far inferior" competition.Basically, you were wrong on every point in your post.

 

[valhallan]

Yeah, torn ACL during the playoffs for Rivers ring a bell?

But just as I'm discounting Manning's injury as an argument for MVP, I wouldn't use it for Rivers either. Every NFL player is injured, so it doesn't make sense to point out one guy's malady as significantly more important than anothers, imo.

 

[switz]

Actually, Rivers WAS recovering from injury. And the record of Colts opponents was 127-128-1. The Chargers opponents went 132-124.

Rivers AFAIK was never in question to open the season, and was 100% when the season started.If you look at their records, the Colts beat 4 more teams than the Chargers... take away their records form the competition...Colts opponents would be 123-116-1 minus Colts games, Chargers opponents would be 124-116 minus Chargers games. Near identical...DY - we know you're a Colts hater, so it's not really worth arguing with you about anything Colts related.

 

[David Yudkin]

DY - we know you're a Colts hater, so it's not really worth arguing with you about anything Colts related.

I'm not a Colts hater, but some of the debates we've had have typically been a bit . . . off. While you are entitled to your opinion, for example, I still to this day don't see how a receiving corps of Troy Brown, David Patten, and Jermaine Wiggins could possibly be considered equal talent wise to Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, and Dallas Clark (as has been your assertion).

 

[Chase Stuart]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period. That is why there is a separate "Offensive Player of the Year" award - because often the MVP (though not in the last 4 years, but likely this year) is not the same as the offensive player with the best stat year.2. Rivers didn't make the Pro Bowl because they vote on the team way too soon in the season. At the time of the voting, the Chargers were 4 and 8. That was bad timing, and probably they should change that.

The award isn't the MVP among teams with winning records. It's the MVP of the NFL. The entire NFL. If you're going to say ex ante that no one on an 8-8 team can possibly win the MVP (and I have no idea why you would do such a thing), it should be official.The difference between what Rivers did and what an average QB would have done for the Chargers is larger, IMO, than the difference between any other player in the NFL and the league average replacement at his position.

 

[Chase Stuart]

The Colts D allowed 6 passing TDs and had 15 INTs. That's absurd. The Chargers D allowed 25 passing TDs and had 15 INTs.

In their H2H battle, Rivers had fewer attempts, more yards, the same number of TDs and fewer INTs.

Rivers has to deal with Norv Turner, while Manning gets to play with Tony Dungy. The Colts have a terrific coach and a very good pass defense. The Chargers have the exact opposite. Rivers really is the Chargers, and he's as valuable as you get in 2008.

 

[Two Deep]

Those who do not think Rivers should be considered do so based on nothing more than the fact that he is not a media darling. His numbers warrant consideration as does the fact that he dug his team out of a hole (no fault of his own) and led them to a division title.

I might add the fact that he is not on the pro bowl roster after the excellent numbers he put up supports my statement.

1. You clearly are either not reading posts on the subject, or just ignoring what we're writing. A QB that leads his team to an 8-8 record, whether his name is Rivers, Manning, Brady or Brees, is not going to win MVP. Period.

And you clearly don't get that this is a discussion thread and Rivers was included on the poll. No one here supporting Rivers thinks he will win, we just think he should.

I was responding to what was bolded above. I clearly get Rivers should be discussed, but I'm not going to take the insult that I don't think Rivers should win because his name is Rivers and not Manning.

sorry you were so easily insulted, there was no intent. Nobody said Rivers SHOULD win, I said he should be considered. And by the way thanks to David and Chase for bringing more supporting data.

 

[renesauz]

I'd take my vote back if I could.

Those arguing for Rivers have a good case...but not as good as the argument King made in his article for Manning. I think he's right. Without Peyton, the Colts don't win 8 games, let alone 12. Take away Rivers, and the Chargers still win 6. They don't make the playoffs, but it's not much of a swing.

Records are imaterial if you're in the playoffs. Brees, Cassel and Favre aren't excluded because they missed the playoffs, but because their impact' are not as compelling. Similarly, Rivers and Warner aren't excluded because of sub-par records, because they DID make the playoffs (and their teams would not have without them).

Pennington has been awesome, and a great story...but is he worth 5 or 6 wins to the Dolphins? I don't think so.

ADP and Williams have been very impressive, but Carolina is still a 10-11 win team without Williams, and Minnesota would have still won 6 games at least.

The argument for Ryan is weak. Too many QB's have posted better numbers. The impact of Turner (another borderline MVP candidate) further weakens Ryan's case.

The argument for Warner intrigues me. The other QB's considered have arguably better numbers with less receiving talent to work with. If he's gone, the Cardinals don't make the playoffs. His team may well have been held to just 3-4 wins without him. He had my vote initially based on that. What swayed me is the fact that he has indeed turned the ball over a ton. The fact that Manning is, quite simply, a better QB who would have led the same Cardinals team to at LEAST 9-10 wins against that soft schedule. I'm not sure Warner would have performed nearly as well with the Colts and their schedule.

Manning's accomplishments probably don't win in a different year. This year, there are a lot of legit candidates, but no clear-cut, no-brainer. In this field, Manning rightfully wins MVP. In most years, he'd have been an also-ran.

 

[Two Deep]

What happens if San Diego prevails over Indy this weekend? What happens if Rivers numbers are better?

 

[Ghost Rider]

What happens if San Diego prevails over Indy this weekend? What happens if Rivers numbers are better?

Absolutely nothing. Playoffs have nothing to do with regular season awards.

 

[Buffaloes]

What happens if San Diego prevails over Indy this weekend? What happens if Rivers numbers are better?

Probably the same thing that happens if Indy and Peyton dominate. I think votes are due in before the playoff games.

 

[Tau837]

Colts opponents would be 123-116-1 minus Colts games, Chargers opponents would be 124-116 minus Chargers games. Near identical...

If it's near identical, why did you state that the Chargers' competition was so inferior?

 

[Two Deep]

What happens if San Diego prevails over Indy this weekend? What happens if Rivers numbers are better?

Probably the same thing that happens if Indy and Peyton dominate. I think votes are due in before the playoff games.

I just think it would be an interesting turn of events If Manning was to win MVP and the guy who was overlooked was to out play and beat him head to head in the playoffs.

 

[RBM]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.

Why is he the MVP?

 

[Ghost Rider]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him, they probably wouldn't have won more than 6 games, unless you think a no-name QB could have gotten a team with an average defense and no running game to 12-4.Also, who the MVP is has nothing to do with expectations. Just because the Colts were expected to win 12 games and then won 12 games doesn't make Manning less valuable.Without Manning, the Colts don't win those games against Minnesota, Houston, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Jacksonville.

 

[renesauz]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him they are a 7 win team, at best. (FIVE LESS, at best)Without Brees, the Saints are a 6-7 win team.Without Favre, the Jets are an 7-8 win team.Without Brees, the Chargers still win 6.Without Ryan (or Turner), the Falcons likely win 7 (without both, 4)....they steal thunder from each other.Without Cassel, the Pats still win 9.Without Warner, the Cards limp to 6 wins.Without Pennington, the improved D and decent runinggame/o-line still carries Miami to 7-8 wins. (People forget that although Miami only won 1 game last year...they were competitive in almost every game. IE: One win was more an aberation then a true indicator of where the team was. Win even half of those nail biters, they were a 6 win team. Pennington deserves a lot of credit, but not as much as some want to give him.)Without ADP, the Vikings win 6-7.Of those to consider:- NONE would have a bigger swing in W-L then the Colts without Manning. Penington is the only one close in this regard.- Only ADP, Manning, Warner, Rivers, and Pennington made non-playoff teams playoff teams....but ADP, Warner, and Rivers were worth no more then 2 wins...on teams that barely made it. A heck of a case has been made for Rivers. Best player this year? Probably. MVP....depends on criteria. If team W-L swing is your biggest/most critical factor (as I think it should be), Rivers is not the man. While the Chargers would not be nearly as dangerous/fun/ even good...they only lose a couple more games then they lost anyway.

 

[RBM]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him, they probably wouldn't have won more than 6 games, unless you think a no-name QB could have gotten a team with an average defense and no running game to 12-4.Also, who the MVP is has nothing to do with expectations. Just because the Colts were expected to win 12 games and then won 12 games doesn't make Manning less valuable.Without Manning, the Colts don't win those games against Minnesota, Houston, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Jacksonville.

Falcons wouldnt have won 11 games without Turner. Turner's team had no expectations. He was brought in with a big contract to be the workhorse, and to take pressure off the rookie qb. He did both of those better than anyone couldve ever imagined.Sorry, the Colts season just doesnt impress me enough to give Manning MVP.

 

[RBM]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him they are a 7 win team, at best. (FIVE LESS, at best)Without Brees, the Saints are a 6-7 win team.Without Favre, the Jets are an 7-8 win team.Without Brees, the Chargers still win 6.Without Ryan (or Turner), the Falcons likely win 7 (without both, 4)....they steal thunder from each other.Without Cassel, the Pats still win 9.Without Warner, the Cards limp to 6 wins.Without Pennington, the improved D and decent runinggame/o-line still carries Miami to 7-8 wins. (People forget that although Miami only won 1 game last year...they were competitive in almost every game. IE: One win was more an aberation then a true indicator of where the team was. Win even half of those nail biters, they were a 6 win team. Pennington deserves a lot of credit, but not as much as some want to give him.)Without ADP, the Vikings win 6-7.Of those to consider:- NONE would have a bigger swing in W-L then the Colts without Manning. Penington is the only one close in this regard.- Only ADP, Manning, Warner, Rivers, and Pennington made non-playoff teams playoff teams....but ADP, Warner, and Rivers were worth no more then 2 wins...on teams that barely made it.

Where the hell are you getting this from?The Saints are the same team without Brees? Are you sick?Just impossible to take any of your post seriously. You have no clue how many games those teams win without those guys. Without Turner the Falcons wouldve won 7 games? WHA WHA WHAT???

 

[Ghost Rider]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him, they probably wouldn't have won more than 6 games, unless you think a no-name QB could have gotten a team with an average defense and no running game to 12-4.Also, who the MVP is has nothing to do with expectations. Just because the Colts were expected to win 12 games and then won 12 games doesn't make Manning less valuable.Without Manning, the Colts don't win those games against Minnesota, Houston, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Jacksonville.

Falcons wouldnt have won 11 games without Turner. Turner's team had no expectations. He was brought in with a big contract to be the workhorse, and to take pressure off the rookie qb. He did both of those better than anyone couldve ever imagined.Sorry, the Colts season just doesnt impress me enough to give Manning MVP.

There is that 'e' word again: Expectations. Again, they mean NOTHING as far as who the MVP is. NOTHING. The MVP is the player who was most valuable to their team, not the player who helps their team exceeds expectations. Also, you saying the Colts season didn't impress you is a strong argument IN FAVOR of Manning. Did they look like a 12-4 team? Hell no. But why did they get to 12-4? Because of Peyton Manning. And for the record, Turner would be 2nd on my ballot.

 

[RBM]

Manning led a team that was supposed to win 12 games to 12 wins and a wild-card berth.Why is he the MVP?

Because without him, they probably wouldn't have won more than 6 games, unless you think a no-name QB could have gotten a team with an average defense and no running game to 12-4.Also, who the MVP is has nothing to do with expectations. Just because the Colts were expected to win 12 games and then won 12 games doesn't make Manning less valuable.Without Manning, the Colts don't win those games against Minnesota, Houston, New England, Pittsburgh, San Diego and Jacksonville.

Falcons wouldnt have won 11 games without Turner. Turner's team had no expectations. He was brought in with a big contract to be the workhorse, and to take pressure off the rookie qb. He did both of those better than anyone couldve ever imagined.Sorry, the Colts season just doesnt impress me enough to give Manning MVP.

Also, you saying the Colts season didn't impress you is a strong argument IN FAVOR of Manning. Did they look like a 12-4 team? Hell no. But why did they get to 12-4? Because of Peyton Manning.

Didnt impress me because they have a good team that goes 12-4 every year.

 

[Tau837]

A heck of a case has been made for Rivers. Best player this year? Probably. MVP....depends on criteria. If team W-L swing is your biggest/most critical factor (as I think it should be), Rivers is not the man. While the Chargers would not be nearly as dangerous/fun/ even good...they only lose a couple more games then they lost anyway.

I've seen you allude to this a couple times. This take of yours is nothing but pure speculation. I assume you are saying Rivers was only worth 2 wins because only two San Diego wins were by close margins. But IMO they still would have lost some of the other games if they were playing Volek or Culpepper or someone like that.

 

[valhallan]

Didnt impress me because they have a good team that goes 12-4 every year.

Same here. The Colts defense allowed 6 TD passes (next lowest was 12) and ranked 6th overall vs the pass, among teams like Pitt, Baltimore, Philly, the Giants, and Tennessee. The Chargers defense allowed 25 TD passes and ranked 31st, among teams like Seattle, KC, and Detroit. Manning is obviously going to win, but as others have admitted, Rivers has a compelling case. He played well in nearly every game and achieved the highest passer rating by 8 points with basically no help, particularly from his coaches.

 

[switz]

Colts opponents would be 123-116-1 minus Colts games, Chargers opponents would be 124-116 minus Chargers games. Near identical...

If it's near identical, why did you state that the Chargers' competition was so inferior?

Because I focused too much on the divisions they each played in, instead of the overall schedule. They actually had a few common opponents, and outside of those, the Colts still faced more games versus winning teams, but it is closer than I initially thought.

 

[switz]

Didnt impress me because they have a good team that goes 12-4 every year.

Same here. The Colts defense allowed 6 TD passes (next lowest was 12) and ranked 6th overall vs the pass, among teams like Pitt, Baltimore, Philly, the Giants, and Tennessee. The Chargers defense allowed 25 TD passes and ranked 31st, among teams like Seattle, KC, and Detroit. Manning is obviously going to win, but as others have admitted, Rivers has a compelling case. He played well in nearly every game and achieved the highest passer rating by 8 points with basically no help, particularly from his coaches.

I'm not so sure of that. Norv Turner made his reputation as a QB coach & OC, did he not? Maybe as a HC Turner doesn't have the best track record, but he's always been great for his QBs.

 

[Tau837]

Colts opponents would be 123-116-1 minus Colts games, Chargers opponents would be 124-116 minus Chargers games. Near identical...

If it's near identical, why did you state that the Chargers' competition was so inferior?

Because I focused too much on the divisions they each played in, instead of the overall schedule. They actually had a few common opponents, and outside of those, the Colts still faced more games versus winning teams, but it is closer than I initially thought.

Looks like San Diego played 8 games against opponents with winning records, while the Colts played only 7.

 

[Ghost Rider]

It is official: Peyton Manning is the AP's NFL MVP, winning rather easily.

Here is how the voting went:

Peyton Manning 32

Michael Turner 4

Chad Pennington 4

James Harrison 3

Adrian Peterson 3

Philip Rivers 2

Kurt Warner 1

Chris Johnson 1

 

[MDSkinner]

Didnt impress me because they have a good team that goes 12-4 every year.

That is intriguing because that is what is so impressive to me and why I felt he deserved it the most. The Colts do always seem to go 12-4, but why? Clearly Manning is a massive part of it (the pass defense was obviously another big reason this year). This year it seemed even more because of Manning than in the past. They start off going 3-4 then reel off 9 straight. The first month of the season Manning was still coming back from injury and was clearly not playing up to par but kept them in it and even during the 3-4 stretch they were 2-1 against teams that ended up making the playoffs. To me, this is Mannings second most impressive season to date.