Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Not so fast - Josh McDaniels backed out of the Colts job (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Hankmoody
- Start date
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
So you didn’t bring up BB and Carroll in your post and say that McDaniels could possibly do well in his next HC gig because they did?
I guess my comprehension is off then.
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
What I like about the story is the talking head jocks who pontificate that there is no contract until a paper is signed. What a fascinating rewrite of contract law.
metoo
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
I'm looking forward to the owners meeting. Irsay and Kraft in the same room. Should be good humor. Frankly, why the rest of the owners put up with Kraft is beyond me. He has demonstrated that he will tolerate his coach cheating, which of course means cheating his partners out of their fair chance at the monetary rewards of a championship. He has demonstrated that he will tolerate his Q.B. cheating and will use his power to protect the truth from coming out, including rewarding coconspirators like the Defalter, again to his partners detriment. When caught out he does not show contrition, but instead he attacks his partners in the press while allowing the NFLPA and his Q.B. to sue his partners with his tactic consent. Now he participates in breaching a contract harming a partner who detrimentally relied on the acceptance given by McDaniels and ratified when McDaniels asked assistant coaches to rely on his acceptance and the power that came there form.
Offer, acceptance, consideration, detrimental reliance. I believe Irsay has a very passable suit for tortious interference with contract against Kraft and for breach of contract against Mcaniels.
Offer, acceptance, consideration, detrimental reliance. I believe Irsay has a very passable suit for tortious interference with contract against Kraft and for breach of contract against Mcaniels.
Last edited by a moderator:
Godsbrother
Footballguy
True but look at the QBs of the final four teams this season: aside from Brady you had Nick Foles, Case Keenum, and Blake Bortles.
Pretty remarkable in the pass happy league the NFL has become.
It will certainly prevent him from some opportunities, many owners and other coaches, assistants, etc. will swear him off forever and would never trust him again. However, McDaniels is still young and time passing will cause people to discount this, just as the Colts were foolish enough to discount everything McDaniels did when he drove the Bronco's into the ground.
Plus there are bad, desperate owners out there.The Browns for example...
Godsbrother
Footballguy
There may be a team that will consider McDaniels for their HC, especially if he has success w/o Brady and/or Belichick, but this maneuver certainly didn't improve his chances.
I lost track of how many national writers and more pertinently ex-GM's/league execs who say things like he'll never get another HC job outside of NE or like Casserley said he burned bridges he do does not even know. Does not mean they are right, just means it's not a real crazy thought to think he's done what his agent said he would be doing which was committing career suicide.
Speaking of that agent this is a good time to mention right now he's got more obstacles down the road then just another NFL team wanting to hire him. As of now that agent represents about a quarter of the leagues GM's. That's not going to make it easier with a roadblock like that in front of about a quarter of the job market. Another big issue he'll have is with putting a staff together. He'll be able to get someone of course but I think he's going to have a big problem luring a lot of candidates.
My take has and will continue to be that he'll never be an NFL head coach outside of NE, but I don't even think it's a guarantee he gets that job.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Just passing this along: On Bill Barnwell's podcast yesterday, Mike Reiss said that what changed McDaniels' mind wasn't an explicit promise that he'd get to succeed Belichick, but rather an offer, along with more money and long-term stability, that Belichick would deepen his mentorship to cover all of the aspects of being a HC such as salary-cap management and the like (which suggests he's never done that with any of his previous assistants, which is maybe a clue as to why they don't have the best track record).
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Honestly can not wait for Pats to hire McDaniels as HC in the future. Guy is essentially Lane Kiffin 2.0... also very amusing the pats fans think it will be the lap of luxury to have McDaniels as HC without Brady. Tim Tebow, Knowshon Moreno and Broncos ownership group all say hi. Let me guess... blah, blah, blah BB with the Browns. Guy made the playoffs with the Browns and a faded Kosar who he hated because he was a primadonna who was past his prime. What has McDaniels done without Brady or BB? Nothing except act like an entitled #####.
squistion
Footballguy
Manish Mehta @MMehtaNYDN 23h23 hours ago
Josh McDaniels is a disgrace for backstabbing the #Colts ... and the latest reason why people hate the Patriots
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/mcdaniels-shameful-colts-snub-latest-patriot-article-1.3805121?utm_content=buffera30fb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=mmehta+twitter
Josh McDaniels pulled off a wondrous magic trick Tuesday night by burning 31 bridges simultaneously with a blend of unprofessionalism and immaturity that won’t soon be forgotten.
New England’s offensive coordinator-turned-Colts-head-coach-turned-Patriots offensive coordinator screwed an organization, screwed so-called friends looking for jobs and screwed a welcoming fanbase hoping to believe in him.
Ladies and gentleman, The Patriot Way.
[...]
Josh McDaniels is a disgrace for backstabbing the #Colts ... and the latest reason why people hate the Patriots
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/mcdaniels-shameful-colts-snub-latest-patriot-article-1.3805121?utm_content=buffera30fb&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=mmehta+twitter
Josh McDaniels pulled off a wondrous magic trick Tuesday night by burning 31 bridges simultaneously with a blend of unprofessionalism and immaturity that won’t soon be forgotten.
New England’s offensive coordinator-turned-Colts-head-coach-turned-Patriots offensive coordinator screwed an organization, screwed so-called friends looking for jobs and screwed a welcoming fanbase hoping to believe in him.
Ladies and gentleman, The Patriot Way.
[...]
Last edited by a moderator:
msudaisy26
Footballguy
I did, it doesn't mean he will, which I also said, and it doesn't mean he can't do well and still not be those guys. You are connecting some vague dots. Anyways I am done with your trolling, good luck.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
That's young for an NFL head coach. Most head coaches are 50 and older. Had McDaniels not backed out, there would have been only 3 or 4 head coaches younger than him, most of which just got hired for the first time this year.
Last edited by a moderator:
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Meaningless at this time. What matters is what they say/do when he's interested in their job. Like many here, these executives dont like the move and since they have no skin in the game, they can say so. I bet tons of "executives" would say they'd never want a Barry Bonds or Clemens on their team...until it they actually have the choice. It's funny how cloudy things get when they actually affect your business or team.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Yep. Just ask Colin Kaepernick.
What exactly has McDaniels done in coaching that is even remotely equitable to what the performances that Bonds or Clemens put up as players in their sport?
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
Talent wasnt the point. People say all kinds of thing when it doesnt matter.Yep. Just ask Colin Kaepernick.
Tau837
Footballguy
It is completely different for many reasons. Two you didn't mention:
After the 1999 season, the Patriots fired Pete Carroll and formally requested permission from the Jets to interview Belichick for their head coaching job. The Jets did not tell Belichick about it, and Parcells made a quick decision to step down as head coach and move into the front office, so the Jets could announce Belichick as head coach. Belichick was unhappy that the Jets had not told him about the Patriots' interest and given him the choice to talk to them.
When Belichick and Parcells moved from the Patriots to the Jets in 1997, it was agreed that Belichick would be assistant head coach and successor to Parcells as head coach. But Belichick reached that agreement with owner Leon Hess, who passed away in 1999. He did not make that agreement with the new owner at the time this situation occurred. He didn't really know the new owner, whereas he knew Robert Kraft very well.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
You guys humor me for a second. Lots of folks are suggesting JMD was a disaster in DEN and his bailing on the Colts was in bad form (both of which I agree with). But taking things one step further, many people feel he is a disaster in waiting no matter where he becomes a head coach.
But JMD was instrumental in developing TB12 from a game manager into an actual weapon. JMD, TB, BB, and Randy Moss basically remade the Patriots playbook in 2007 and NE has been an offensive force ever since.
In other threads, people are now ushering in Jimmy Garoppolo as possibly one of the next top quarterbacks . . . and JMD would have been the one that worked with him for 3.5 years in NE. He also took Matt Cassel from a college back up into a serviceable QB. He also helped bring along Jacoby Brissett, who was able to start within weeks for the Colts.
That's several QB's that he's helped develop, so why couldn't he do that again either in NE or for another team? I get that he whiffed and whiffed hard on Tim Tebow, but he helped get the Patriots to 8 Super Bowls (he left the Rams and came back to the Patriots for the 2011 post season).
Do people think he could draft and develop another decent QB? He will likely have a say in who NE targets as the heir to Brady.
But JMD was instrumental in developing TB12 from a game manager into an actual weapon. JMD, TB, BB, and Randy Moss basically remade the Patriots playbook in 2007 and NE has been an offensive force ever since.
In other threads, people are now ushering in Jimmy Garoppolo as possibly one of the next top quarterbacks . . . and JMD would have been the one that worked with him for 3.5 years in NE. He also took Matt Cassel from a college back up into a serviceable QB. He also helped bring along Jacoby Brissett, who was able to start within weeks for the Colts.
That's several QB's that he's helped develop, so why couldn't he do that again either in NE or for another team? I get that he whiffed and whiffed hard on Tim Tebow, but he helped get the Patriots to 8 Super Bowls (he left the Rams and came back to the Patriots for the 2011 post season).
Do people think he could draft and develop another decent QB? He will likely have a say in who NE targets as the heir to Brady.
I'm not ready to attribute Brady's growth to McDaniels and in general a lot of overlaying issues.
How much was BB to credit for growth and development of some of these players? How much of an impact did Brady have on growth of other QB's? When he was not working with those two outstanding leaders who did he develop?
I would for sure not say he can't develop a decent QB, I'd tend to think he can do that at least that but why are you only focusing on that aspect? There is more to being a head coach.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
According to ESPN Patriots reporter Mike Reiss, OC Josh McDaniels was given "no assurances" that he would succeed Bill Belichick as New England's next head coach.
Most assumed that McDaniels had been tapped as Belichick's eventual successor (hence him leaving Indianapolis at the altar this week), but apparently that's not the case. In fact, McDaniels has said privately that he'd prefer not to succeed Belichick in New England, feeling that it would be a "hard act to follow." It appears McDaniels was hesitant to move his family, including his four children, to Indianapolis, and was persuaded to stay in his current position after getting a "significant raise." Belichick, who acts as the Patriots' de facto GM in addition to his head-coaching duties, also promised to give McDaniels a voice in roster construction and salary cap decisions. It will be hard for McDaniels to get another head-coaching job outside of New England after flaking on the Colts.
Most assumed that McDaniels had been tapped as Belichick's eventual successor (hence him leaving Indianapolis at the altar this week), but apparently that's not the case. In fact, McDaniels has said privately that he'd prefer not to succeed Belichick in New England, feeling that it would be a "hard act to follow." It appears McDaniels was hesitant to move his family, including his four children, to Indianapolis, and was persuaded to stay in his current position after getting a "significant raise." Belichick, who acts as the Patriots' de facto GM in addition to his head-coaching duties, also promised to give McDaniels a voice in roster construction and salary cap decisions. It will be hard for McDaniels to get another head-coaching job outside of New England after flaking on the Colts.
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There are a lot of comments in numerous threads saying that a team is nothing without a QB and having a good QB can radically transform a team. That's why I mentioned JMC as potentially being able to insert and develop a decent QB. In other threads, people were pointing to Shanahan's system as being one that will yield a good to great QB.
People will point to Brady and BB before they would ever look at JMD, but IMO he was a big part of the NE success. If you don't believe me, believe Brady, as he's said so on multiple occasions.
Anyone have any idea why Bob Quinn is so sour on McDaniels after working together for so many years? Quinn not only never interviewed him for the job but said he drew up a list of 5 candidates when he started and he was not on it? Basically in a polite way he was saying he really had no interest in talking to him about the Lions job.
massraider
Footballguy
I think most players will give their long time coaches accolades, I don't put a lot of stock in that.
Hard for me to credit JMD to much when I think back to stuff like sitting in Vegas for the MNF opener against the Steelers in 2002 and watching Brady dink and dunk the Steelers to death. And I remember that so well because partly because I'm a Steeler fan mainly because I spent hours that night arguing with a friend of mine that Brady was better then Peyton, which at the time was not really a popular argument yet. The major traits I thought Brady possessed, mainly his accuracy and composure, were to me on full display before JMD.
But again I would be inclined to think JMD can groom a QB, I would list that on the positive side of his ledger.
Last edited by a moderator:
msommer
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Cassel had not started a game since high school and 8 years later had a 3700/21 season with 11 wins in NE. Is that not serviceable?
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Huh. Sounds a lot like what I posted on Wednesday.JohnnyU said:
JohnnyU
Footballguy
ConnSKINS26
Footballguy
menobrown said:
Aren't they wanting to keep Jim Bob Cooter around? If so, that pretty much eliminated someone like McDaniels before the search even began.
I think they preferred to keep JBC, not a requirement but a preference. They did mainly interview DC's, but they did interview Shurmur and just reading between the lines of Quinn's answer the other day I just did not get a sense they had interest in McDaniels.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
This is all stafford i think. He is super close to cooter and perhaps with having to wait so long on matty patty...it was just easier to keep cooter. Perhaps without jim caldwellmenobrown said:
they can be alot more aggressive
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Wasn't it pretty bad also to put your eggs in the Tebow basket? Let's face it, McDaniels didn't have a clue as a HC.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
We will never really know because his time in Denver was over before Tebow got a real chance to play.
All I'll say about Tebow is that, as bad as he was, he got a LOT worse the further he went on without McDaniels as his new coaches tried to change things.
babydemon90
Footballguy
JMD looks to be a good OC. It's tough to say how he looks without TB12, though. Maybe he'll be a good HC as well. I don't think he has "NO" shot in the future. I think there will be owners/GM's that blackball him - but probably not 31 of them. Someone will decide the potential for winning outweighs the negative. He may not have his choice of openings however.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Regardless, his 3 starts with McDaniels were pretty decent by Tebow standards. He went over 300 total yards in two the three and the offense scored 23, 24, and 28 points in the games with him at the helm. He only went downhill from there.
So maybe there's some truth to the notion that McDaniels gets more out of his QBs, regardless of who they are. In his three starts with McDaniels Tebow accounted for 850 total yards and 7 total TDs with 3 INTs. That's 283yds and 2.3 TDs per start with a 2:1 TD/turnover ratio. The rest of his career he accounted for 149 yards and 1.2 TDs per start, with a 1:1 TD/turnover ratio.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Anarchy99 said:
When Tom Brady was in his young formative years and had just moved into being one the top 5 QBs in the league, McDaniels was - wait for it - a D assistant for NE.
When he was a HC in DEN the O scheming was literally a joke. That doesn’t begin to speak about how incredibly sophomoric his behavior was there.
I think he may be riding the coattails of greatness, not building it. I hope he does get a chance again so we can put some of the wild speculation about his uncanny football mind to bed once and for all. From everything I’ve seen when he was the one calling the shots, he didn’t have a clue.
.
Last edited by a moderator:
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Wait, what?
Literally none of this makes any sense.
Prior to McDaniels taking over as OC Brady had a career high of 28 TDs and had one 4000+ yard passing season, which he eclipsed just barely during a season where there was no official OC but it was rumored that McDaniels was calling the plays. Then in 2007, McDaniels' second year as official OC, the Pats had that record setting season where they broke every offensive record imaginable. Brady's career high in TDs went from 28 to 50. His career high in yards went from 4100 (3800 not counting the year where McDaniels was rumored to have been an off the books OC) to 4800.
All in all, Brady has had 8 seasons with a QB rating above 97. McDaniels was OC for 7 of them.
And regarding Denver, maybe you weren't playing fantasy football back then, but lots of people wanted a piece of that Kyle Orton led offense. Quite different than the previous Kyle Orton led offense that no one wanted a part of.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
No, what doesn’t make sense is giving McDaniels credit for Brady’s success. Not after seeing McDaniels’ performance when he was away from NE. Hard to believe that you think you hold such a strong position that you can be insulting given the evidence available. I watched every game of McDaniels’ HC tenure in Denver, as well as PS and TC, and saw him run a mediocre team right into the toilet. That it got so bad that he had to be fired in-season during his second season as a HC, despite what you seem to believe was a vaunted offense - which in fact was a trainwreck.
In the meantime, we all saw the NE O functioning just as well without McDaniels while he was in DEN as it did with McDaniels there. You could make the argument it was better while he was gone than it was immediately before he left and after he was rehired.
.
Last edited by a moderator:
massraider
Footballguy
Can be a great OC, even a good developer of QBs, and never be a decent head coach.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
The point with Denver wasn't that they were some vaunted offense, but rather that they were a top 15 offense both years with the pathetic Kyle Orton and Tim Tebow at the helm. Neither of those guys had even a top 25 season without him. Like I mentioned above, Tebow's metrics basically cut in HALF when looking at his numbers without McDaniels vs. with him.
And maybe you should apply some numbers to this big Brady breakout you're referring to when McDaniels left. You said McDaniels was gone when Brady broke out into a top 5 QB. But when McDaniels was gone Brady went from a guy who was throwing 26-28 TDs with 12-14 INTs and 3500-4000 yards with an 85-92 QB rating to a guy who was throwing 26-28 TDs with 12-14 INTs and 3500-4000 yards with an 85-92 QB rating. I'm not seeing the huge breakout there.
The breakout I DO see, is when McDaniels returned and within two years Brady threw for 50 TDs with 8 INTs and 4800 yards with a 117 QB rating. An improvement of 30%-90% in each of those categories relative to his previous non-McDaniels career highs. And from then on he was more of a 33-38 TD guy with 4-8 INTs and 4500 yards and a QB rating typically around 100. That seems like a pretty clear turning point in his career.
The Patriots' offense was already pretty good when McDaniels took over the first time, but comparing a solid top 10 offense with scoring and yardage numbers similar to that 2009-2010 Denver offense you're mocking to the unstoppable, record destroying juggernaut they were when McDaniels took over again is a pretty massive stretch.
Last edited by a moderator:
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Yes, if you lose a locker room. He's not a good communicator, but neither is Belichick, but BB knows how to get the most out of his players. I'm not sold that JM can as the top guy. I also question his ability to draft talent. He showed that in Denver. Perhaps he's learned over the years, but if I were a Patriots fan I would want him to stay as an OC if he stays in NE when BB leaves, not become their HC.
Last edited by a moderator:
While I think they did prefer to retain JBC, not a condition of new head coach but a preference, I don't think it had to do with their lack of interest in McDaniels and if it had would have been easy for Quinn to say. I can't find the article but from a few days ago that was in the Detroit Free Press but the way Quinn answered the question leads me to strongly believe even if JBC said he was leaving he still would not have been interested in McDaniels.This is all stafford i think. He is super close to cooter and perhaps with having to wait so long on matty patty...it was just easier to keep cooter. Perhaps without jim caldwell
Don't really make a lot of difference but I get a strong feeling that McDaniels is not someone Quinn wanted to work with.
