Nothing seems to get done any more - Society is or isn’t crumbling- screen time and other lawn related gripes (3 Viewers)

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

What do teachers start out at and how much debt are they carrying on average?

My point is that it's easier to get to fine net income through a trade - if you're good at your trade and not an absolute silver spoon prodigy in college. Also, you don't have to work 80 hours a week carrying ruinous debt.

I respect the hell out of teachers - I come from a family of them - but not everyone has to go to grad school to be a success.

It goes both ways. Not everyone is cut out to be a tradesmen.

 

[Gally]

I direct more and more of my students into the trades every year. In the past I was absolutely one of those teachers that would tell every student - "no matter what you do, get a college degree." I still think that the degree can be an extremely valuable piece of paper (and experience) to have, but learning a trade and getting into those career fields can be a life changing thing for a lot of people. And they can end up being better off financially than if they go to college and get a degree.

The supply and demand has flipped for sure. College degrees used to be the minority because of the way society was built. But there has been enough of the recommendations to get degrees that it has become diluted........especially with degrees that aren't readily employable. At one point just having any kind of degree set you apart. That isn't the case anymore. They are getting close to being the high school diploma of years gone by where almost everyone looking for work has them.

Trades on the other hand have now become the minority. There aren't enough GOOD tradesmen out there so if you are good you can write your ticket and don't suffer for work.
Supply and demand are a thing and the supply of degreed people are saturated in many fields.

 

[Manster]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

What do teachers start out at and how much debt are they carrying on average?

My point is that it's easier to get to fine net income through a trade - if you're good at your trade and not an absolute silver spoon prodigy in college. Also, you don't have to work 80 hours a week carrying ruinous debt.

I respect the hell out of teachers - I come from a family of them - but not everyone has to go to grad school to be a success.

I used to think the teachers union was the biggest issue with public schools. I was wrong. It's ****ty parents, and bloated admin

 

[Mister CIA]

I think I want to be an influencer. Surely I can build a brand based upon My Top 25,000 Songs thread.

Get ready for an avalanche of web traffic , Joe.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

 

[Manster]

I direct more and more of my students into the trades every year. In the past I was absolutely one of those teachers that would tell every student - "no matter what you do, get a college degree." I still think that the degree can be an extremely valuable piece of paper (and experience) to have, but learning a trade and getting into those career fields can be a life changing thing for a lot of people. And they can end up being better off financially than if they go to college and get a degree.

The supply and demand has flipped for sure. College degrees used to be the minority because of the way society was built. But there has been enough of the recommendations to get degrees that it has become diluted........especially with degrees that aren't readily employable. At one point just having any kind of degree set you apart. That isn't the case anymore. They are getting close to being the high school diploma of years gone by where almost everyone looking for work has them.

Trades on the other hand have now become the minority. There aren't enough GOOD tradesmen out there so if you are good you can write your ticket and don't suffer for work.
Supply and demand are a thing and the supply of degreed people are saturated in many fields.

I think this is where the boomer retirement, not being replaced thing, is happening.

All the young folks want to work in tech, or biz which is very volatile......so many jobs that aren't really "needed" when times get tough

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

My husband is on the hiring committee for his union. They took 10 people out of the 44 that applied. I apply to public school jobs every year. We bowl in a league with our postal worker. They are turning people away. They aren't taking anyone that wants to work.

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

Maybe the postal service and teachers (which are labor unions) are turning people away.

ETA - maybe they’re turning away people who are just looking not to work.

Trade unions like the plumbers, painters, laborers/railroad, steam fitters, electricians operators and elevator dudes all are.

They are all shifting focus to attract as many members possible due to the passing of the legislation (IRA, Chips act, mandatory PLAs).

Finding legal able bodied working men and women who will show up and pass a drug test is challenging.

Show up the first Wednesday of the month to the local and they’ll find you work.

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

Maybe the postal service and teachers (which are labor unions) are turning people away.

Trade unions like the plumbers, painters, laborers/railroad, steam fitters, electricians operators and elevator dudes all are.

They are all shifting focus to attract as many members possible due to the passing of the legislation (IRA, Chips act, mandatory PLAs).

Finding legal able bodied working men and women who will show up and pass a drug test is challenging.

He is one or those unions and they turn plenty of people away.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

Maybe the postal service and teachers (which are labor unions) are turning people away.

Trade unions like the plumbers, painters, laborers/railroad, steam fitters, electricians operators and elevator dudes all are.

They are all shifting focus to attract as many members possible due to the passing of the legislation (IRA, Chips act, mandatory PLAs).

Finding legal able bodied working men and women who will show up and pass a drug test is challenging.

He is one or those unions and they turn plenty of people away.

They are turning away able bodied, capable working men and women?

By all means, send them our way. We will take them. If you feel so inclined, let your husband know to contact me via and I’ll have our organizers in your state gobble up those good workers.

 

[Manster]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

My husband is on the hiring committee for his union. They took 10 people out of the 44 that applied. I apply to public school jobs every year. We bowl in a league with our postal worker. They are turning people away. They aren't taking anyone that wants to work.

I wonder how many people are qualified that are being turned away. In the healthcare setting I work in, a good percentage of the applicants are not qualified for the job posting.

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

Maybe the postal service and teachers (which are labor unions) are turning people away.

Trade unions like the plumbers, painters, laborers/railroad, steam fitters, electricians operators and elevator dudes all are.

They are all shifting focus to attract as many members possible due to the passing of the legislation (IRA, Chips act, mandatory PLAs).

Finding legal able bodied working men and women who will show up and pass a drug test is challenging.

He is one or those unions and they turn plenty of people away.

They are turning away able bodied, capable working men and women?

By all means, send them our way. We will take them. If you feel so inclined, let your husband know to contact me via and I’ll have our organizers in your state gobble up those good workers.

They had 44 apply last year. 10 got in. He had a couple friends that are electricians, sheet metal, and pipe fitters. They all turn away more people than they take in. I am not sure where you are located, but in Michigan they need skilled trades, but it isn't anyone who wants a job will get one.

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

My husband is on the hiring committee for his union. They took 10 people out of the 44 that applied. I apply to public school jobs every year. We bowl in a league with our postal worker. They are turning people away. They aren't taking anyone that wants to work.

I wonder how many people are qualified that are being turned away. In the healthcare setting I work in, a good percentage of the applicants are not qualified for the job posting.

They have to take a standardized test, drug test and proof of a high school diploma or GED to get an interview. After the interview they weed people out.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

My husband is on the hiring committee for his union. They took 10 people out of the 44 that applied. I apply to public school jobs every year. We bowl in a league with our postal worker. They are turning people away. They aren't taking anyone that wants to work.

I wonder how many people are qualified that are being turned away. In the healthcare setting I work in, a good percentage of the applicants are not qualified for the job posting.

They have to take a standardized test, and drug test and proof of a high school diploma or GED to get an interview. After the interview they weed people out.

:sigh:

I didn’t mean unions would take anybody with a pulse.

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

The Unions will take anybody and everybody who is willing to work. Getting people to show up is the problem.

Some unions are better than others, but they are all begging for more members.

Of course they’re not gonna start out making $80,000 a year, 35 $40,000 is a good wage for somebody that has zero skills and zero education.

My husband is on the hiring committee for his union. They took 10 people out of the 44 that applied. I apply to public school jobs every year. We bowl in a league with our postal worker. They are turning people away. They aren't taking anyone that wants to work.

I wonder how many people are qualified that are being turned away. In the healthcare setting I work in, a good percentage of the applicants are not qualified for the job posting.

They have to take a standardized test, and drug test and proof of a high school diploma or GED to get an interview. After the interview they weed people out.

:sigh:

I didn’t mean unions would take anybody with a pulse.

I am sure lots of good people aren't getting the job. How many? I don't know.

 

[Hawks64]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

my kid is in his 2nd year and is over 25 an hour. And if he was in IBEW it would be more like 30 at this point.

 

[beer 30]

The problem with the Boomers is they wont freaking get out of the way and let others in.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. I'm almost 60 and people have started asking me about when I'm going to retire. When they cart my cold, dead body out of here on a gurney is my typical answer.

CPA exam is incredibly hard to pass.....

Oh come on, I've passed 2 parts of it and if I wasn't such a drunken degenerate, I'd be wearing a tie too short on a short sleeved sweat stained white shirt sitting in an H&R booth at Walmart just crushing it right now. CPA is a piece of cake! Sit through a course at Becker and you're almost guaranteed to pass. Legit, you can just about skip college, take this course, do exactly what they tell you to and pass the exam. It's just memorization, A LOT of memorization but nothing much more than that.

No kidding, hardest test I've ever sat through in my. Took it twice out of college, probably could have made it with a third round but landed a job that I've been in since.

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

my kid is in his 2nd year and is over 25 an hour. And if he was in IBEW it would be more like 30 at this point.

There are some. It depends on where you live and what trade.

 

[Jayrod]

CPA exam is incredibly hard to pass.....

No, it isn't easy, but if you are going the high-end, white collar route, it is probably the quickest as it requires the least amount of schooling. If you take a heavy load every semester, you could conceivably sit for the exam after 4 years.

The problem with the Boomers is they wont freaking get out of the way and let others in.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game. I'm almost 60 and people have started asking me about when I'm going to retire. When they cart my cold, dead body out of here on a gurney is my typical answer.

CPA exam is incredibly hard to pass.....

Oh come on, I've passed 2 parts of it and if I wasn't such a drunken degenerate, I'd be wearing a tie too short on a short sleeved sweat stained white shirt sitting in an H&R booth at Walmart just crushing it right now. CPA is a piece of cake! Sit through a course at Becker and you're almost guaranteed to pass. Legit, you can just about skip college, take this course, do exactly what they tell you to and pass the exam. It's just memorization, A LOT of memorization but nothing much more than that.

No kidding, hardest test I've ever sat through in my. Took it twice out of college, probably could have made it with a third round but landed a job that I've been in since.

I passed 3/4 sections first time and the 4th I passed on the 2nd try.

It is really just a lot of memorization...but that is pretty much the gist of every multiple choice test, right? Although 3/4 sections do have an essay at the end.

 

[Hot Diggity Dog]

Old man/cloud stuff here, but I get frustrated working with younger Millennials and GenZ - they seem to take a lot of time off.

Good for them. Life is short. Enjoy the time you have and especially the time you have off. Work can piss off.

Overall, this is terrible advice and outlook. When I was young, I worked hard and played hard and slept like a baby to wake up the next day to do it all over again. If you live every day like it is your last you never build anything or save anything, and then when the next day comes with some sort of trouble you have nothing to deal with it.

How old are you? This used to work. it doesn’t anymore. Im 50 so im fine, I have a savings etc. 20 something’s truly have it rough now in the job market. Now busting your butt at work basically gets you more work and less help.

I completely disagree with you. It does work and there are ways to get around the difficulties. It might not be easy, you might have to budget and deny yourself some things and get a roommate or two. Live with your parents to get around cost of living if you can't find roommates. But if you find a career where there is a high need and low number of applicants and get good at it, you will be fine. Your last sentence defines the very definition of demand in economics. If a person cannot parlay that into a good salary or hourly wage that is on them. Every small business owner I know has the same complaint, no good employees. And every one of them is willing to bend over backwards for a good one.

Anecdotal but still an example. My wife works at Starbucks, and they have a new policy that every barista has to work one day on the weekend. She said no, transfer me some where they can support my schedule or get rid of me, and I will draw unemployment. All the while she works harder than 90% of the people, who are half her age, at the unit she is at. Long story short she no longer has to work weekends because the unit can't let her go without having an employee revolt, because so many people went to the manager and plead her case for here and threaten to quit or leave if she did. This is a 20 hour a week job you would think that Starbucks could fill no problem. Huge problem to replace a good worker and the manager is breaking the corporate rules for her to keep her and the other good employees around.

As an employer myself, I know that good employees that get stuff done are worth doing just about anything to keep them around. Especially if it is a skilled labor position, physical or mental. My main employee I pay $37.00 an hour, plus 1.5 overtime pay, plus profit sharing, plus an SEP, plus Christmas bonus which is two weeks' pay, plus 4 weeks paid vacation, plus 5 sick days paid, plus health insurance, plus use of vehicle for work when he wants. Plus, help buying material for his side jobs and help pulling permits for those same side jobs if he needs it. He just turned thirty. By the time he turns 40 heavens only knows what hourly wage he will be able to command. He will be fine and would have a house by now if he hadn't of gone so far into debt as a very irresponsible 18-year-old.

In contrast I hired an 18-year-old guy, started him at $22 an hour, plus a $2500 signing bonus, half up front, half after 6 months, plus everything I listed in the above paragraph, while he had zero experience. He quit after three weeks because he didn't like having to dig a trench for pipes once a week. While I at almost three times his age was digging right next to him and trying to train him as fast as possible in how to lay out pipes etc. When I started, I had to dig the entire trench system by myself before any one even thought of teaching me anything that had to do with actual plumbing.

Sorry but there is a significant portion of this generation that feels entitled and has no work ethic at all, and no sense of self control or self denial. Its not all of them, its not new, but it is worse than it has ever been.

 

[jwb]

Every small business owner I know has the same complaint, no good employees. And every one of them is willing to bend over backwards for a good one.

I agree with everything you said save the above - to a degree anyway.

I know a lot of small biz owners too. And many are a little stuck in the past in regards to hourly pay. I've heard a lot of "If I pay $15/hr, then I expect xyz" (where xyz is manager level stuff). They don't realize that today's $15, even if it's not the official minimum wage for where they are, prettymuch buys you the bare minimum.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history.

Hmm yup can't think of a thing

I'm sensing a little sarcasm here, so let's see.

Have any of our cities been reduced to rubble because of round-the-clock bombing raids? (UK)
Have any of our cities been firebombed in the course of losing a war? (Germany)
Have any of our cities been nuked in the course of losing a war? (Japan)
Have we had a civil war that resulted in our country being partitioned? (Korea)
Have we been invaded by a hostile power? (France, Hungary, Poland, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Ukraine, etc.)
Has our government ever collapsed? (USSR 1991, Italy on any random weekend)
Has our currency collapsed? (Argentina, Venezuela)

You'd have to go back to the Great Depression before you get to anything that touches that stuff, and after that you'd have to go back all the way to the 1860s. I know it sucked when the Challenger exploded, but a little perspective is called for. We've had it really, really good.

 

[BoltNlava]

We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history.

Hmm yup can't think of a thing

I'm sensing a little sarcasm here, so let's see.

Have any of our cities been reduced to rubble because of round-the-clock bombing raids? (UK)
Have any of our cities been firebombed in the course of losing a war? (Germany)
Have any of our cities been nuked in the course of losing a war? (Japan)
Have we had a civil war that resulted in our country being partitioned? (Korea)
Have we been invaded by a hostile power? (France, Hungary, Poland, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Ukraine, etc.)
Has our government ever collapsed? (USSR 1991, Italy on any random weekend)
Has our currency collapsed? (Argentina, Venezuela)

You'd have to go back to the Great Depression before you get to anything that touches that stuff, and after that you'd have to go back all the way to the 1860s. I know it sucked when the Challenger exploded, but a little perspective is called for. We've had it really, really good.

Idk...I just opened a beer and it's SKUNKY! I may have to go into a complete funk over this.

 

[General Malaise]

We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history.

Hmm yup can't think of a thing

I'm sensing a little sarcasm here, so let's see.

Have any of our cities been reduced to rubble because of round-the-clock bombing raids? (UK)
Have any of our cities been firebombed in the course of losing a war? (Germany)
Have any of our cities been nuked in the course of losing a war? (Japan)
Have we had a civil war that resulted in our country being partitioned? (Korea)
Have we been invaded by a hostile power? (France, Hungary, Poland, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Ukraine, etc.)
Has our government ever collapsed? (USSR 1991, Italy on any random weekend)
Has our currency collapsed? (Argentina, Venezuela)

You'd have to go back to the Great Depression before you get to anything that touches that stuff, and after that you'd have to go back all the way to the 1860s. I know it sucked when the Challenger exploded, but a little perspective is called for. We've had it really, really good.

Native Americans might have a slightly different perspective but you make good points.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history.

Hmm yup can't think of a thing

I'm sensing a little sarcasm here, so let's see.

Have any of our cities been reduced to rubble because of round-the-clock bombing raids? (UK)
Have any of our cities been firebombed in the course of losing a war? (Germany)
Have any of our cities been nuked in the course of losing a war? (Japan)
Have we had a civil war that resulted in our country being partitioned? (Korea)
Have we been invaded by a hostile power? (France, Hungary, Poland, Vietnam, Kuwait, Iraq, Ukraine, etc.)
Has our government ever collapsed? (USSR 1991, Italy on any random weekend)
Has our currency collapsed? (Argentina, Venezuela)

You'd have to go back to the Great Depression before you get to anything that touches that stuff, and after that you'd have to go back all the way to the 1860s. I know it sucked when the Challenger exploded, but a little perspective is called for. We've had it really, really good.

Native Americans might have a slightly different perspective but you make good points.

In 1876, the Lakota were still sort of a nation, with enough power to annihilate a US Army division. Two years later they were utterly and completely conquered. None of us have experienced anything even resembling that. That's my point.

Not that I think anything like that is going to happen any time soon, of course. Just saying. We really were lucky to be born when and where we were.

 

[fruity pebbles]

Old man/cloud stuff here, but I get frustrated working with younger Millennials and GenZ - they seem to take a lot of time off.

Good for them. Life is short. Enjoy the time you have and especially the time you have off. Work can piss off.

Overall, this is terrible advice and outlook. When I was young, I worked hard and played hard and slept like a baby to wake up the next day to do it all over again. If you live every day like it is your last you never build anything or save anything, and then when the next day comes with some sort of trouble you have nothing to deal with it.

How old are you? This used to work. it doesn’t anymore. Im 50 so im fine, I have a savings etc. 20 something’s truly have it rough now in the job market. Now busting your butt at work basically gets you more work and less help.

I completely disagree with you. It does work and there are ways to get around the difficulties. It might not be easy, you might have to budget and deny yourself some things and get a roommate or two. Live with your parents to get around cost of living if you can't find roommates. But if you find a career where there is a high need and low number of applicants and get good at it, you will be fine. Your last sentence defines the very definition of demand in economics. If a person cannot parlay that into a good salary or hourly wage that is on them. Every small business owner I know has the same complaint, no good employees. And every one of them is willing to bend over backwards for a good one.

Anecdotal but still an example. My wife works at Starbucks, and they have a new policy that every barista has to work one day on the weekend. She said no, transfer me some where they can support my schedule or get rid of me, and I will draw unemployment. All the while she works harder than 90% of the people, who are half her age, at the unit she is at. Long story short she no longer has to work weekends because the unit can't let her go without having an employee revolt, because so many people went to the manager and plead her case for here and threaten to quit or leave if she did. This is a 20 hour a week job you would think that Starbucks could fill no problem. Huge problem to replace a good worker and the manager is breaking the corporate rules for her to keep her and the other good employees around.

As an employer myself, I know that good employees that get stuff done are worth doing just about anything to keep them around. Especially if it is a skilled labor position, physical or mental. My main employee I pay $37.00 an hour, plus 1.5 overtime pay, plus profit sharing, plus an SEP, plus Christmas bonus which is two weeks' pay, plus 4 weeks paid vacation, plus 5 sick days paid, plus health insurance, plus use of vehicle for work when he wants. Plus, help buying material for his side jobs and help pulling permits for those same side jobs if he needs it. He just turned thirty. By the time he turns 40 heavens only knows what hourly wage he will be able to command. He will be fine and would have a house by now if he hadn't of gone so far into debt as a very irresponsible 18-year-old.

In contrast I hired an 18-year-old guy, started him at $22 an hour, plus a $2500 signing bonus, half up front, half after 6 months, plus everything I listed in the above paragraph, while he had zero experience. He quit after three weeks because he didn't like having to dig a trench for pipes once a week. While I at almost three times his age was digging right next to him and trying to train him as fast as possible in how to lay out pipes etc. When I started, I had to dig the entire trench system by myself before any one even thought of teaching me anything that had to do with actual plumbing.

Sorry but there is a significant portion of this generation that feels entitled and has no work ethic at all, and no sense of self control or self denial. Its not all of them, its not new, but it is worse than it has ever been.

I can respect that. Thanks for the reply.

 

[jvdesigns2002]

Just a random, but serious thought. The topics, concepts and twists and turns that this thread has snaked through are really cool, fascinating and interesting.

 

[FairWarning]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

A lot of the high schools cut this out a while back, thus the shortage.

 

[FairWarning]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

The teachers union is not a trade union. Grocery store- also not a trade.

Fair enough, but the trades aren't taking everyone. Like I said my husband is on the hiring committee and all the trades in the area talk. They are turning lots of people away.

Maybe the postal service and teachers (which are labor unions) are turning people away.

Trade unions like the plumbers, painters, laborers/railroad, steam fitters, electricians operators and elevator dudes all are.

They are all shifting focus to attract as many members possible due to the passing of the legislation (IRA, Chips act, mandatory PLAs).

Finding legal able bodied working men and women who will show up and pass a drug test is challenging.

He is one or those unions and they turn plenty of people away.

They are turning away able bodied, capable working men and women?

By all means, send them our way. We will take them. If you feel so inclined, let your husband know to contact me via and I’ll have our organizers in your state gobble up those good workers.

They had 44 apply last year. 10 got in. He had a couple friends that are electricians, sheet metal, and pipe fitters. They all turn away more people than they take in. I am not sure where you are located, but in Michigan they need skilled trades, but it isn't anyone who wants a job will get one.

They would have no problem getting work in SW Mich.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

A lot of the high schools cut this out a while back, thus the shortage.

I'm not talking about high schools. There are trade training schools & programs everywhere for post-HS grads. They are begging for people to participate.

 

[FairWarning]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

A lot of the high schools cut this out a while back, thus the shortage.

I'm not talking about high schools. There are trade training schools & programs everywhere for post-HS grads. They are begging for people to participate.

I understand. Kids just don’t graduate high school without being exposed to it and decide they want to work in the trades. We had woodworking and a machine shop in HS, sadly no more after budget cuts.

 

[AAABatteries]

Just a random, but serious thought. The topics, concepts and twists and turns that this thread has snaked through are really cool, fascinating and interesting.

Agree and it’s because this is such a complex socio-economic issue. I really liked the point @culdeus made about phone addiction. Lots of good takes.

The only thing I’ll add that I haven’t seen is the idea of quiet quitting - I think there’s a lot of people who have done this as they feel their efforts to kill themselves at work just aren’t worth it. Some perceive that as lazy, some as noble (sticking it to the man), some as a good way to find a work-life balance that works for them. No matter what you call it or what you think about it, it’s a reality.

 

[Ilov80s]

I understand. Kids just don’t graduate high school without being exposed to it and decide they want to work in the trades. We had woodworking and a machine shop in HS, sadly no more after budget cuts.

That’s not a universal truth. The HS I work at has wood shop, small engines and a whole separate school where they offer trade classes like construction, auto shop, etc.

 

[FairWarning]

Just a random, but serious thought. The topics, concepts and twists and turns that this thread has snaked through are really cool, fascinating and interesting.

Agree and it’s because this is such a complex socio-economic issue. I really liked the point @culdeus made about phone addiction. Lots of good takes.

The only thing I’ll add that I haven’t seen is the idea of quiet quitting - I think there’s a lot of people who have done this as they feel their efforts to kill themselves at work just aren’t worth it. Some perceive that as lazy, some as noble (sticking it to the man), some as a good way to find a work-life balance that works for them. No matter what you call it or what you think about it, it’s a reality.

Covid really affected the workforce in a few ways. The rules have changed permanently.

 

[FairWarning]

I understand. Kids just don’t graduate high school without being exposed to it and decide they want to work in the trades. We had woodworking and a machine shop in HS, sadly no more after budget cuts.

That’s not a universal truth. The HS I work at has wood shop, small engines and a whole separate school where they offer trade classes like construction, auto shop, etc.

That’s good. My school and surrounding area have cut most of that out.

 

[Da Guru]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

This is actually a real thing.

I saw something today that horrified me.

I work in an industry that is prone to accidents. Almost 100% of that can be mitigated by just being alert. There are assigned functions and as long as people are awake and looking around it should go smooth.

I came around the bend today to see all four employees in an active barricaded safety zone, sitting down, watching videos on their phones. PPE in their laps or on the ground.

The younger generation needs a serious wake up call.

A while back a road crew that was repairing road had two huge trucks. First truck is full of asphalt that 2 men walk behind with shovels and fill in cracks or whatever, second truck follows behind the two men with flashing lights to block and protect them from traffic. They are only moving 2 miles an hour or so.

Man driving second truck was texting and looking down as first came to a stop, crushing the two men between the trucks, killing one and the other losing both his legs.

On a different note I was at CVS last week and it is slow, as I was waiting to pay the lady at the counter gave me the "wait a minute signal as she was talking on her cell about dinner plans later that night" I heard her whole conversation about how she did not want to go to a certain place to eat.

 

[AAABatteries]

Just a random, but serious thought. The topics, concepts and twists and turns that this thread has snaked through are really cool, fascinating and interesting.

Agree and it’s because this is such a complex socio-economic issue. I really liked the point @culdeus made about phone addiction. Lots of good takes.

The only thing I’ll add that I haven’t seen is the idea of quiet quitting - I think there’s a lot of people who have done this as they feel their efforts to kill themselves at work just aren’t worth it. Some perceive that as lazy, some as noble (sticking it to the man), some as a good way to find a work-life balance that works for them. No matter what you call it or what you think about it, it’s a reality.

Covid really affected the workforce in a few ways. The rules have changed permanently.

Definitely part of the equation. Wage stagnation. And I’m still loving the phone angle. Not only are people addicted but the messages they are getting while absorbed are frequently not good ones.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

This is actually a real thing.

I saw something today that horrified me.

I work in an industry that is prone to accidents. Almost 100% of that can be mitigated by just being alert. There are assigned functions and as long as people are awake and looking around it should go smooth.

I came around the bend today to see all four employees in an active barricaded safety zone, sitting down, watching videos on their phones. PPE in their laps or on the ground.

The younger generation needs a serious wake up call.

A while back a road crew that was repairing road had two huge trucks. First truck is full of asphalt that 2 men walk behind with shovels and fill in cracks or whatever, second truck follows behind the two men with flashing lights to block and protect them from traffic. They are only moving 2 miles an hour or so.

Man driving second truck was texting and looking down as first came to a stop, crushing the two men between the trucks, killing one and the other losing both his legs.

On a different note I was at CVS last week and it is slow, as I was waiting to pay the lady at the counter gave me the "wait a minute signal as she was talking on her cell about dinner plans later that night" I heard her whole conversation about how she did not want to go to a certain place to eat.

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

 

[beer 30]

Idk...I just opened a beer and it's SKUNKY! I may have to go into a complete funk over this.

Bring on the funk!

 

[Ilov80s]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

I think I heard Walmart is getting rid of them due it the high levels of theft of people not scanning items.

 

[dgreen]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

Why aren't they out of work already? Self check out has been around for a while and cashiers still exist just about everywhere. I haven't seen a big move towards self check out and away from cashiers in a while. I feel like we've reached a balance between the two and the market sees value in having both.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

Why aren't they out of work already? Self check out has been around for a while and cashiers still exist just about everywhere. I haven't seen a big move towards self check out and away from cashiers in a while. I feel like we've reached a balance between the two and the market sees value in having both.

Because most companies know they still need a few humans do do this. Way more profitable to get rid of people who need to paid and have benefits and are "trouble to manage" and replace them with machines that don't complain. It's a matter of time for corporations that are focused on growing shareholder value.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

Why aren't they out of work already? Self check out has been around for a while and cashiers still exist just about everywhere. I haven't seen a big move towards self check out and away from cashiers in a while. I feel like we've reached a balance between the two and the market sees value in having both.

Because most companies know they still need a few humans do do this. Way more profitable to get rid of people who need to paid and have benefits and are "trouble to manage" and replace them with machines that don't complain. It's a matter of time for corporations that are focused on growing shareholder value.

Maybe it's the calm before the storm and there will be another push. And this is completely anecdotal........ but I've noticed a slight move away from self-checkout. My local Lowes had gone completely self-check for years from 6 a.m. til 8 a.m. (all the while paying someone to stand there because doofuses like me would invariably screw something up). Nowadays, they have a register open at those times.

 

[Da Guru]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

Why aren't they out of work already? Self check out has been around for a while and cashiers still exist just about everywhere. I haven't seen a big move towards self check out and away from cashiers in a while. I feel like we've reached a balance between the two and the market sees value in having both.

Because most companies know they still need a few humans do do this. Way more profitable to get rid of people who need to paid and have benefits and are "trouble to manage" and replace them with machines that don't complain. It's a matter of time for corporations that are focused on growing shareholder value.

Was in a Kroger last night and nobody was working anywhere in the store. There were 6 self checkouts on each end with one person overseeing 6 checkouts. Never saw any other employee anywhere. Took me 15 minutes to find a bottle of cherries!!

 

[ChiefD]

Was in a Kroger last night and nobody was working anywhere in the store. There were 6 self checkouts on each end with one person overseeing 6 checkouts. Never saw any other employee anywhere. Took me 15 minutes to find a bottle of cherries!!

That's why I send my butler.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I recently had a transaction where the cashier did not look up from their phone or make any eye contact with me. Just completed the sale and handed me my receipt.

They know they'll be out of work soon with self checkout! But that's another rant.

Why aren't they out of work already? Self check out has been around for a while and cashiers still exist just about everywhere. I haven't seen a big move towards self check out and away from cashiers in a while. I feel like we've reached a balance between the two and the market sees value in having both.

Because most companies know they still need a few humans do do this. Way more profitable to get rid of people who need to paid and have benefits and are "trouble to manage" and replace them with machines that don't complain. It's a matter of time for corporations that are focused on growing shareholder value.

Was in a Kroger last night and nobody was working anywhere in the store. There were 6 self checkouts on each end with one person overseeing 6 checkouts. Never saw any other employee anywhere. Took me 15 minutes to find a bottle of cherries!!

Kroger has an app that will tell you what aisle it's in

 

[dgreen]

I've noticed recently the Target I go to shuts down their self checkout near closing time and everyone has to go through a cashier line.