Nothing seems to get done any more - Society is or isn’t crumbling- screen time and other lawn related gripes (1 Viewer)

[culdeus]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You guys DO realize the world will continue to spin after we're gone, right? The younger generations will be just fine and probably better off in the long run than we are and will be. You know how I know that?


THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY!!!!

Europe was dominant continent just a century ago.

 

[Da Guru]

it seems to me that there is almost no productivity getting done in America on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe because I’m coming from a production background, but I can’t get anyone outside of construction to actually do anything in a timely manner.

I’ve been waiting to get an answer back from WSSC regarding a claim that I filed in December 2023. Every week the lady is either out sick or she’ll get it to me next week. I have emailed her supervisors, and that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’ve been trying to get a second job – we’re talking cashier or stocker, low level entry stuff. Applied to UPS, Costco, and Home Depot. All had to be online. I guess my name just goes in a box and if it’s not picked out in 90 days- I have to re-apply.

I think I got a job at Ace Hardware - the manager tells me that I’m hired but he won’t give me a start date. This has been almost a month.

It seems that everyone’s personal lives dominate their business life and the lower level positions - nobody cares at all.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe weeks or months to do things that only take minutes of actual work is acceptable.

/rant

Home Depot is easy to get into. Just hit up the store manager personally and say you have submitted an online application and were wondering if it was seen. Now do take note: Jan-April are really bad months to be looking here because hours are VERY limited and employees that have full time status and been there 25+ years take priority. You may or will get hired with this approach but not part time worthy employed till May or June. I take a leave of absence during those months as I am retired and don't need the cash when the hours are this limited. It's an ok culture and the job is crazy easy if your store manager is somewhat mellow. I'd look at different locations and ask people on reddit (r/homedepot) is certain locations are ok to work for. Hope this is helpful.

My buddy retired and works at HD 20-24 hours a week. Said he does basically next to nothing but gets in a few miles of exercise walking around the store. The guy lives maybe 1 mile from the store and says he goes home to let his dog out and nobody knows he is gone. Said if he sees someone he knows he just shoots the bull with them for half an hour like he is helping. Pretty nice retirement job.

 

[Manster]

it seems to me that there is almost no productivity getting done in America on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe because I’m coming from a production background, but I can’t get anyone outside of construction to actually do anything in a timely manner.

I’ve been waiting to get an answer back from WSSC regarding a claim that I filed in December 2023. Every week the lady is either out sick or she’ll get it to me next week. I have emailed her supervisors, and that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’ve been trying to get a second job – we’re talking cashier or stocker, low level entry stuff. Applied to UPS, Costco, and Home Depot. All had to be online. I guess my name just goes in a box and if it’s not picked out in 90 days- I have to re-apply.

I think I got a job at Ace Hardware - the manager tells me that I’m hired but he won’t give me a start date. This has been almost a month.

It seems that everyone’s personal lives dominate their business life and the lower level positions - nobody cares at all.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe weeks or months to do things that only take minutes of actual work is acceptable.

/rant

Home Depot is easy to get into. Just hit up the store manager personally and say you have submitted an online application and were wondering if it was seen. Now do take note: Jan-April are really bad months to be looking here because hours are VERY limited and employees that have full time status and been there 25+ years take priority. You may or will get hired with this approach but not part time worthy employed till May or June. I take a leave of absence during those months as I am retired and don't need the cash when the hours are this limited. It's an ok culture and the job is crazy easy if your store manager is somewhat mellow. I'd look at different locations and ask people on reddit (r/homedepot) is certain locations are ok to work for. Hope this is helpful.

My buddy retired and works at HD 20-24 hours a week. Said he does basically next to nothing but gets in a few miles of exercise walking around the store. The guy lives maybe 1 mile from the store and says he goes home to let his dog out and nobody knows he is gone. Said if he sees someone he knows he just shoots the bull with them for half an hour like he is helping. Pretty nice retirement job.

He sounds like pretty much every HD employee I've ever come into contact with.

 

[Da Guru]

it seems to me that there is almost no productivity getting done in America on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe because I’m coming from a production background, but I can’t get anyone outside of construction to actually do anything in a timely manner.

I’ve been waiting to get an answer back from WSSC regarding a claim that I filed in December 2023. Every week the lady is either out sick or she’ll get it to me next week. I have emailed her supervisors, and that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’ve been trying to get a second job – we’re talking cashier or stocker, low level entry stuff. Applied to UPS, Costco, and Home Depot. All had to be online. I guess my name just goes in a box and if it’s not picked out in 90 days- I have to re-apply.

I think I got a job at Ace Hardware - the manager tells me that I’m hired but he won’t give me a start date. This has been almost a month.

It seems that everyone’s personal lives dominate their business life and the lower level positions - nobody cares at all.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe weeks or months to do things that only take minutes of actual work is acceptable.

/rant

Home Depot is easy to get into. Just hit up the store manager personally and say you have submitted an online application and were wondering if it was seen. Now do take note: Jan-April are really bad months to be looking here because hours are VERY limited and employees that have full time status and been there 25+ years take priority. You may or will get hired with this approach but not part time worthy employed till May or June. I take a leave of absence during those months as I am retired and don't need the cash when the hours are this limited. It's an ok culture and the job is crazy easy if your store manager is somewhat mellow. I'd look at different locations and ask people on reddit (r/homedepot) is certain locations are ok to work for. Hope this is helpful.

My buddy retired and works at HD 20-24 hours a week. Said he does basically next to nothing but gets in a few miles of exercise walking around the store. The guy lives maybe 1 mile from the store and says he goes home to let his dog out and nobody knows he is gone. Said if he sees someone he knows he just shoots the bull with them for half an hour like he is helping. Pretty nice retirement job.

He sounds like pretty much every HD employee I've ever come into contact with.

it seems to me that there is almost no productivity getting done in America on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe because I’m coming from a production background, but I can’t get anyone outside of construction to actually do anything in a timely manner.

I’ve been waiting to get an answer back from WSSC regarding a claim that I filed in December 2023. Every week the lady is either out sick or she’ll get it to me next week. I have emailed her supervisors, and that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’ve been trying to get a second job – we’re talking cashier or stocker, low level entry stuff. Applied to UPS, Costco, and Home Depot. All had to be online. I guess my name just goes in a box and if it’s not picked out in 90 days- I have to re-apply.

I think I got a job at Ace Hardware - the manager tells me that I’m hired but he won’t give me a start date. This has been almost a month.

It seems that everyone’s personal lives dominate their business life and the lower level positions - nobody cares at all.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe weeks or months to do things that only take minutes of actual work is acceptable.

/rant

Home Depot is easy to get into. Just hit up the store manager personally and say you have submitted an online application and were wondering if it was seen. Now do take note: Jan-April are really bad months to be looking here because hours are VERY limited and employees that have full time status and been there 25+ years take priority. You may or will get hired with this approach but not part time worthy employed till May or June. I take a leave of absence during those months as I am retired and don't need the cash when the hours are this limited. It's an ok culture and the job is crazy easy if your store manager is somewhat mellow. I'd look at different locations and ask people on reddit (r/homedepot) is certain locations are ok to work for. Hope this is helpful.

My buddy retired and works at HD 20-24 hours a week. Said he does basically next to nothing but gets in a few miles of exercise walking around the store. The guy lives maybe 1 mile from the store and says he goes home to let his dog out and nobody knows he is gone. Said if he sees someone he knows he just shoots the bull with them for half an hour like he is helping. Pretty nice retirement job.

He sounds like pretty much every HD employee I've ever come into contact with.

LOL..and he keeps a bluetooth in and listens to sports talk radio all day when working. So he knows everything about local sports scene

 

[The Gator]

Old man/cloud stuff here, but I get frustrated working with younger Millennials and GenZ - they seem to take a lot of time off.

Good for them. Life is short. Enjoy the time you have and especially the time you have off. Work can piss off.

I'm down to 3.5 days a week and working towards 3

You hiring?

I'll fax you a bovine competency test to get things rolling.

 

[General Malaise]

You guys DO realize the world will continue to spin after we're gone, right? The younger generations will be just fine and probably better off in the long run than we are and will be. You know how I know that?


THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY!!!!

Europe was dominant continent just a century ago.

Pssst....it's still there. People still long to go there.

 

[Peggy]

it seems to me that there is almost no productivity getting done in America on a day-to-day basis.

Maybe because I’m coming from a production background, but I can’t get anyone outside of construction to actually do anything in a timely manner.

I’ve been waiting to get an answer back from WSSC regarding a claim that I filed in December 2023. Every week the lady is either out sick or she’ll get it to me next week. I have emailed her supervisors, and that doesn’t seem to matter.

I’ve been trying to get a second job – we’re talking cashier or stocker, low level entry stuff. Applied to UPS, Costco, and Home Depot. All had to be online. I guess my name just goes in a box and if it’s not picked out in 90 days- I have to re-apply.

I think I got a job at Ace Hardware - the manager tells me that I’m hired but he won’t give me a start date. This has been almost a month.

It seems that everyone’s personal lives dominate their business life and the lower level positions - nobody cares at all.

Maybe it’s me. Maybe weeks or months to do things that only take minutes of actual work is acceptable.

/rant

Home Depot is easy to get into. Just hit up the store manager personally and say you have submitted an online application and were wondering if it was seen. Now do take note: Jan-April are really bad months to be looking here because hours are VERY limited and employees that have full time status and been there 25+ years take priority. You may or will get hired with this approach but not part time worthy employed till May or June. I take a leave of absence during those months as I am retired and don't need the cash when the hours are this limited. It's an ok culture and the job is crazy easy if your store manager is somewhat mellow. I'd look at different locations and ask people on reddit (r/homedepot) is certain locations are ok to work for. Hope this is helpful.

My buddy retired and works at HD 20-24 hours a week. Said he does basically next to nothing but gets in a few miles of exercise walking around the store. The guy lives maybe 1 mile from the store and says he goes home to let his dog out and nobody knows he is gone. Said if he sees someone he knows he just shoots the bull with them for half an hour like he is helping. Pretty nice retirement job.

What's the min hours per week to get their health insurance I wonder?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You guys DO realize the world will continue to spin after we're gone, right? The younger generations will be just fine and probably better off in the long run than we are and will be. You know how I know that?


THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY!!!!

Europe was dominant continent just a century ago.

Pssst....it's still there. People still long to go there.

Sure, just like how people enjoy going to museums.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Two quick things to keep this thread alive.

1. I'm an optimist by nature. I think it's a better way to view things. But I absolutely don't have any predetermined certainty that things will always continue to get better. It's quite possible things can get worse.

2. Please let's keep this completely out of political things. This can be a good thread that stays alive if we can avoid that.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Two quick things to keep this thread alive.

1. I'm an optimist by nature. I think it's a better way to view things. But I absolutely don't have any predetermined certainty that things will always continue to get better. It's quite possible things can get worse.

2. Please let's keep this completely out of political things. This can be a good thread that stays alive if we can avoid that.

This is what I keep coming back to. We've been lucky, in that people of our generation were born into a country that had already been on the upswing for 30 years. We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history. It's natural for people like us to think that will continue unabated. But there's no reason why it has to. Once upon a time, places like Spain and Holland were major world powers. Now they're just places where Americans go on vacation. That could be us. Not tomorrow or anything, but give it a hundred years.

 

[beer 30]

You guys DO realize the world will continue to spin after we're gone, right? The younger generations will be just fine and probably better off in the long run than we are and will be. You know how I know that?


THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY!!!!

You're optimism is inspiring.

I'll say this, there are hard times coming for the world. By luck of the draw, all of us hit the genetic lottery and were born in one of the 3-4 countries that can conceivably, completely shutter itself to the outside world and not miss too much of a beat. We can feed ourselves, we can power ourselves and aside from ICBM's, we don't have to worry about invasion from a hostile force. There is close to no place on earth that can say the same and certainly not to the scale the US enjoys. As natural resources dwindle and more importantly, the world population continues to increase and the amount of clean water shrinks, things are going to get a little left of center in the next 50-100 years for everybody else.

I don't doubt that the youth of today will discover much more efficient ways to do the things we do today. 100 years ago, most people were moving from the farm to the city. They still dug the majority of holes with a shovel and the world was just beginning to experience the wonders of industrialization. We'll be fine, the folks north of us will be fine, hell even Mexico will probably be fine. I'm curious how the rest of the world fares.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Two quick things to keep this thread alive.

1. I'm an optimist by nature. I think it's a better way to view things. But I absolutely don't have any predetermined certainty that things will always continue to get better. It's quite possible things can get worse.

2. Please let's keep this completely out of political things. This can be a good thread that stays alive if we can avoid that.

This is what I keep coming back to. We've been lucky, in that people of our generation were born into a country that had already been on the upswing for 30 years. We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history. It's natural for people like us to think that will continue unabated. But there's no reason why it has to. Once upon a time, places like Spain and Holland were major world powers. Now they're just places where Americans go on vacation. That could be us. Not tomorrow or anything, but give it a hundred years.

I have hope in that it seems the pendulum swings as the decades pass. I bet things looked bleak to guys our age in the late 60s/70s. Flat tops and long hairs.

We’re still doing the same crap
-race stuff
-war/anti war stuff
-fuel/energy stuff
-climate stuff

It’s honestly a little glitchy in the matrix for me but I’m looking forward to the 80s like rebound I’m expecting.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Two quick things to keep this thread alive.

1. I'm an optimist by nature. I think it's a better way to view things. But I absolutely don't have any predetermined certainty that things will always continue to get better. It's quite possible things can get worse.

2. Please let's keep this completely out of political things. This can be a good thread that stays alive if we can avoid that.

This is what I keep coming back to. We've been lucky, in that people of our generation were born into a country that had already been on the upswing for 30 years. We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history. It's natural for people like us to think that will continue unabated. But there's no reason why it has to. Once upon a time, places like Spain and Holland were major world powers. Now they're just places where Americans go on vacation. That could be us. Not tomorrow or anything, but give it a hundred years.

I have hope in that it seems the pendulum swings as the decades pass. I bet things looked bleak to guys our age in the late 60s/70s. Flat tops and long hairs.

We’re still doing the same crap
-race stuff
-war/anti war stuff
-fuel/energy stuff
-climate stuff

It’s honestly a little glitchy in the matrix for me but I’m looking forward to the 80s like rebound I’m expecting.

This is a good point. And if anything the disparity people in the time saw between the WW2 generation and the generation of woodstock and drugs probably seemed a lot more stark, if anything.

 

[Manster]

Two quick things to keep this thread alive.

1. I'm an optimist by nature. I think it's a better way to view things. But I absolutely don't have any predetermined certainty that things will always continue to get better. It's quite possible things can get worse.

2. Please let's keep this completely out of political things. This can be a good thread that stays alive if we can avoid that.

This is what I keep coming back to. We've been lucky, in that people of our generation were born into a country that had already been on the upswing for 30 years. We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history. It's natural for people like us to think that will continue unabated. But there's no reason why it has to. Once upon a time, places like Spain and Holland were major world powers. Now they're just places where Americans go on vacation. That could be us. Not tomorrow or anything, but give it a hundred years.

One thing I see now, cuz my kids are school age, is our broken public education system. Our school district is about to go on strike cuz of a budget crisis.......larger class sizes.....less resources all around, when in reality, more resources are needed. Yet, a few years back, even when the district saw a budget crisis on the horizon, the admin voted themselves huge pay increases.....20% in some cases. Should be criminal, imo.

Add to that, they are just pushing kids through..... In Oregon, kids do not have to show proficiency in Essential Learning Skills. My kids can basically make up any assignment they don't turn in on time. What are we ingraining in these kids? To expect to be handed everything?

The lower socio-economic families, and/or families that don't really pay attention to what's happening day to day, with their kids, are pumping out (along with the schools) kids who will not be prepared for the world as adults. I think this is something that will continue to rise.......instead of dealing with the issues head on, we as a society, just lower standards. That seems like a bad long term outcome to me.

 

[parasaurolophus]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

This is actually a real thing.

I saw something today that horrified me.

I work in an industry that is prone to accidents. Almost 100% of that can be mitigated by just being alert. There are assigned functions and as long as people are awake and looking around it should go smooth.

I came around the bend today to see all four employees in an active barricaded safety zone, sitting down, watching videos on their phones. PPE in their laps or on the ground.

The younger generation needs a serious wake up call.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

This is actually a real thing.

I saw something today that horrified me.

I work in an industry that is prone to accidents. Almost 100% of that can be mitigated by just being alert. There are assigned functions and as long as people are awake and looking around it should go smooth.

I came around the bend today to see all four employees in an active barricaded safety zone, sitting down, watching videos on their phones. PPE in their laps or on the ground.

The younger generation needs a serious wake up call.

It’s bad. My wife is falling victim to it recently. The reels are too addictive. My screen time is down big time which is why I’m noticing.

While we’re talking about things on our lawn - legalized gambling is going to have a dramatic affect on our society. Every single boyfriend both of my daughters dated - and their friends apparently all gamble now.

 

[Goldminer1]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Two pages in and nobody gonna mention phone addiction snapping our will to work?

This is actually a real thing.

I saw something today that horrified me.

I work in an industry that is prone to accidents. Almost 100% of that can be mitigated by just being alert. There are assigned functions and as long as people are awake and looking around it should go smooth.

I came around the bend today to see all four employees in an active barricaded safety zone, sitting down, watching videos on their phones. PPE in their laps or on the ground.

The younger generation needs a serious wake up call.

It’s bad. My wife is falling victim to it recently. The reels are too addictive. My screen time is down big time which is why I’m noticing.

I've seen this with my wife as well over the last year. She was never an "on her phone" or easily distracted person. Super hard worker, extremely successful. But the reels (essentially facebook tik tok) have continued sucking her in more and more to the point where it's really starting to become worrisome. Not that I can talk as I post here in the FFA at 10am on a Thursday while I procrastinate the mountain of work sitting in front of me, but she definitely gets sucked into those things for hours at a time now and doesn't even notice when people are trying to talk to her, and that's the total opposite of how she's always been.

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

 

[Manster]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Gotta break the cycle.....it's parenting. I mean ultimately, that's the cause of our failing public school system. Too many parents don't know how to be parents.

 

[Manster]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think some of it depends on what people mean by "riches" in rags-to-riches. It's always been hard to go from poverty to multimillionaire status. (Not impossible of course, but tough). It's not hard at all to go from poverty to a middle class job.

(For a kid, I mean. I imagine it's very hard to pull yourself out of poverty as an adult.)

 

[Jayrod]

Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

Those are two massively different things and shouldn't be paired up...which is part of our problem today. We think a smart phone with unlimited data, a Netflix account with a smart TV and a Disney vacation are rights not something that should be saved up for or cut back on when money is tight. None of those things are necessary and some of them are more detrimental than beneficial. Demanding that the wealthy provide those for everyone is a path to an internal implosion.

Part of the reason why people don't think they can be upwardly mobile isn't because they don't think they can, but because they don't want to put in the effort. FOMO and making things look "easy" are more important than working through problems and using self-discipline.

And I agree, most of it is a parenting thing. I'm guilty of being a lazy parent at times and just letting my kids live on their phones at night while I do stuff around the house or sit on my phone as well. I'm really wanting to make 1 weeknight/week a "phone free" evening for the entire family, but we are so busy there isn't a regular night we are all consistently home week to week...so then it would just be some kind of random enforcement which would not go over well with my 2 teenagers.

 

[General Malaise]

You guys DO realize the world will continue to spin after we're gone, right? The younger generations will be just fine and probably better off in the long run than we are and will be. You know how I know that?


THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF RECORDED HISTORY!!!!

You're optimism is inspiring.

I'll say this, there are hard times coming for the world. By luck of the draw, all of us hit the genetic lottery and were born in one of the 3-4 countries that can conceivably, completely shutter itself to the outside world and not miss too much of a beat. We can feed ourselves, we can power ourselves and aside from ICBM's, we don't have to worry about invasion from a hostile force. There is close to no place on earth that can say the same and certainly not to the scale the US enjoys. As natural resources dwindle and more importantly, the world population continues to increase and the amount of clean water shrinks, things are going to get a little left of center in the next 50-100 years for everybody else.

I don't doubt that the youth of today will discover much more efficient ways to do the things we do today. 100 years ago, most people were moving from the farm to the city. They still dug the majority of holes with a shovel and the world was just beginning to experience the wonders of industrialization. We'll be fine, the folks north of us will be fine, hell even Mexico will probably be fine. I'm curious how the rest of the world fares.

Appreciate it, GB, but with five kids, what choice do I have? If I'm pessimistic and think things are going into the toilet, what kind of dad would I be? "Kids, the world is going to hell in a handbasket, don't bother getting up". That's no way to live. But I also honestly believe that the kids are going to be alright. I don't just base that off of my kids; I was fortunate enough to coach youth sports for 10+ years and got to meet a BUNCH of other kids....man, there's some real bright minds and great young people making their way right now.

And guess what - the hard times you say are coming - you don't think trying to graduate HS during a global pandemic wasn't tricky? We didn't have to deal with that. Imagine being a goofy teenager with all sorts of hormones racing through your body and just throw on a global pandemic that stopped the world in its tracks...feather in the caps of all the young folks that were able to focus and get through school.

I understand your worries and concerns, I have them too. Yes, the world is facing some steep obstacles in its immediate future, but I believe the younger generations will apply new solutions to conquer them just like our ancestors did. Just like we're doing today. I mean, you and I had to take typing and computer classes to learn how to play pong. I remember taking a computer science class and writing a program for two weeks that allowed you to guess a random number between 1 and 100. That was a BIG DEAL. I was in HS. That's absurd by today's standards. Kids grew up with the technology we couldn't even fathom at their age and it's all in the palm of their hands. Faster access to information, more efficiency, far less time spent wasted in face-to-face meetings, ditching needless commutes, and on and on....the advantages they have tower over what we had and what we had towered over what our parents had.

But I also acknowledge this sanguine outlook is probably NOT shared in developing countries and emerging markets. I think it would do me some good to travel around and get some different perspective for sure.

 

[Goldminer1]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

I think a lot of kids feel that way but there are just as many who are making more than all of us on tik-tock/youtube/twitch.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

 

[Manster]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Bad parenting and victim mentality......that's a self fulfilling prophecy

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

I think a lot of kids feel that way but there are just as many who are making more than all of us on tik-tock/youtube/twitch.

I agree, but to them it is a lower risk, higher reward. If your channel doesn't workout it isn't the end of the world. If you go to college and get a degree you could be in debt for the next 20 years doing something you hate or in a completely different field.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

oh the irony

Whatchu talking bout Willis?

Job searching has been more work than my real job!

Again, care to speak up?

 

[Uruk-Hai]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

I think a lot of kids feel that way but there are just as many who are making more than all of us on tik-tock/youtube/twitch.

I agree, but to them it is a lower risk, higher reward. If your channel doesn't workout it isn't the end of the world. If you go to college and get a degree you could be in debt for the next 20 years doing something you hate or in a completely different field.

You'll get no argument from me - Spending 4/5 years @ $20k+/year to drink beer, smoke weed to end up with a $60k/year seems crazy.

 

[Manster]

Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

Those are two massively different things and shouldn't be paired up...which is part of our problem today. We think a smart phone with unlimited data, a Netflix account with a smart TV and a Disney vacation are rights not something that should be saved up for or cut back on when money is tight. None of those things are necessary and some of them are more detrimental than beneficial. Demanding that the wealthy provide those for everyone is a path to an internal implosion.

Part of the reason why people don't think they can be upwardly mobile isn't because they don't think they can, but because they don't want to put in the effort. FOMO and making things look "easy" are more important than working through problems and using self-discipline.

And I agree, most of it is a parenting thing. I'm guilty of being a lazy parent at times and just letting my kids live on their phones at night while I do stuff around the house or sit on my phone as well. I'm really wanting to make 1 weeknight/week a "phone free" evening for the entire family, but we are so busy there isn't a regular night we are all consistently home week to week...so then it would just be some kind of random enforcement which would not go over well with my 2 teenagers.

I see it in my kids. They want instant gratification. And that is what is portrayed in social media.......add in the lowered expectations of school. These kids are going out into the world fragile, and unprepared.


They go to college not sure what they want to do, and accumulate massive debt and then blame it on everyone else. My kids will not be doing that.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

 

[Manster]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

I thought as the boomers retire there's not enough skilled workers to replace them? Hasn't that been happening in Europe for some time now? Low birth rates and all...

 

[msudaisy26]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

Not trying to argue with you, but that isn't true. My husband is in a union and there are union trades that are turning people away. Teachers unions in our area turn down hundreds of applications a year.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just isnt for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

 

[STEADYMOBBIN 22]

As a teacher, I think a lot of people (not just kids), look at our culture & society and think -

"No matter what I do, or how hard I work, I'll never be able to make it. So, why should I even try?"

Additionally a lot of what I see is:

"If the world doesn't care about me, why should I care about it, or the people in it? So, I'm going to act how I want to act, and they can all deal with it."

It is largely a financial problem. At the end of the day, I think a lot of it comes down to people feeling like they have no chance to achieve their dreams in this society. Are there unhappy rich people? Of course. But, I think more than ever, those in the middle and at the bottom of the pack, economically, just have an atittude of "screw it, I'm going to do what I want, when I want, because it doesn't make a difference anyway." And, when you begin to encounter more and more people with that attitude, you are more likely to adopt that mindset yourself. "Screw me? Screw you! I'll do what - I - want! Let's see how you like that!"

We have somehow landed in a place where we blame each other for our problems. Culture wars over largely meaningless things. We're fighting with the wrong people. The ruling class elites - the richest of the rich - have all of the money, and instead of being mad at them, we find a group of people that have it worse than we do and blame them. Or we find a group that has it slightly better than us, and blame them. They aren't the problem.

The boomer that has a retirement account and plays golf every day, shouldn't be the enemy of a Gen-Z kid with blue hair. And the Gen-Z kid with the blue hair, shouldn't be the enemy of the boomer that plays golf. Live and let live, and make the ruling class elites give up some of their obscene wealth, so the people down here at the bottom can you know, go to the dentist, or take our kids to Disney World. Crazy stuff like that.

At the end of the day, if people were more financially secure, we would have a happier & more productive society. Would it solve everything? No. But it would make a HUGE difference.

Well said and I agree. Kids don't look at the rags to riches stories anymore and think that could be me. They know the odds are very remote.

But why don't they believe it? It's just as possible as ever, maybe even more so.

I think they don't believe it, because even "good" jobs like teacher, cop, nurse aren't what we think of as "middle class jobs" anymore. A lot of teachers are broke. A lot of nurses are broke.

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability. In 2024, that isn't true for a lot of professions, they have moved down the list and the purchasing power of the people in those jobs is lower than it used to be. So, what do you need in today's world to be financially stable? From the outside looking in, it appears a lot of it is based upon your parent's level of wealth, and frankly some dumb luck.

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

Working at a Retail Store for $12 or $15 or even $20 an hour, to "move up the ladder" isn't a viable option for most people anymore. They can't afford to only make $15 an hour, while they wait for the right manager to either quit, or realize that YOU are the star employee that deserves to be moved up the corporate food chain.

So, if working at a retail job leaves me just as broke as having no job - many people pick: no job.

The other story, that is often not told, and I think the OP may be encoutering - is the person that is in that $15 an hour job. They don't care about it. They don't want to be in that job, it feels like a total dead-end, they can't even afford to go out to Friday Happy Hour with the rest of the crew, because the kids have Prom coming up, so if Jim Bob Williams calls the store up and wants an answer about some house paint he called about 2 weeks ago - who cares? I've got bigger things to worry about. And if they fire me? Who cares? I can find another $15 an hour dead-end job if I really have to, and since I'm broke anyway, getting fired wouldn't change my life anyway, if anything, it might make it better.

So productivity? Get out of here. They're in survival mode.

Ill state again that those $15/hour entry jobs are not and have never been a path to the middle class. Those jobs are for kids/young people/old folks or somebody making some side money.

There is money, jobs and opportunity for all - its not easy but its out there.

It has been a long time, but someone linked studies and data in the political forum. There are more people of working age than available quality paying jobs.

Every single union in North America disagrees with that.

I thought as the boomers retire there's not enough skilled workers to replace them? Hasn't that been happening in Europe for some time now? Low birth rates and all...

The problem with the Boomers is they wont freaking get out of the way and let others in.

 

[The Duff Man]

We are on a path toward some kind of revolution or significant change. Not right away, maybe not for 100 years but the current trajectory doesn’t seem sustainable.

The elite continue to accumulate more and more wealth. Why? So they will have more to pass down to their future generations. Not because they need it.

Meanwhile the lives of the poor have gotten harder in the last few years.

I have been fortunate enough to see both ends of this spectrum. The house I was born into was still using an outhouse so I know what poor looks and feels like. A lot of my family still struggle today.

Yet companies are reporting record profits. Our CEO just handed out executive bonuses that will double my already healthy salary over the next two years. I don’t even feel good about it as I know that our salary increases for staff have not kept up with cost of living increases.

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

 

[Jayrod]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Right, but compare that to making $0 and paying $10K/year just to get trained. It isn't even close. Trades are far and away a better financial option outside of the highest paying professions like doctor/lawyer/engineer which require a lot more than just a 4 year degree.

CPA is probably the easiest white collar route from rags to riches, IMO. You can get the cheapest undergrad degree in business/finance/accounting possible at a state school, take about 20-40 more hours of grad school accounting courses and sit for the exam and get to $100k salary within 3-5 years, plus do some low level accounting/finance or tax work while in school.

The thing that hangs a lot of kids up though is the idea of doing that job for the rest of their life. Tiktok/Youtube/Instagram doesn't ever show a dude wiring a breaker box or installing plumbing line under a house nor does is show someone working 55 hours/week on spreadsheets and tax software.

No matter what you do, to become upwardly mobile takes work and usually dirty or not enjoyable work and a lot of it.

However, pay your dues for 10+ years and you can become a foreman/partner/owner and then it does become the good life. You still have to put in the time, but you no longer do the grunt work that no one wants.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

 

[General Malaise]

CPA exam is incredibly hard to pass.....

 

[Chicago Hooligan]

We've had speed bumps, but the US has never faced any sort of serious setback during our lifetimes or even in recent history.

Hmm yup can't think of a thing

 

[msudaisy26]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

 

[Goldminer1]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

I direct more and more of my students into the trades every year. In the past I was absolutely one of those teachers that would tell every student - "no matter what you do, get a college degree." I still think that the degree can be an extremely valuable piece of paper (and experience) to have, but learning a trade and getting into those career fields can be a life changing thing for a lot of people. And they can end up being better off financially than if they go to college and get a degree.

I'll again preface this with the fact that I'm a teacher and have never had a job doing manual labor in my life, but I will also say that I genuinely find myself feeling envious of jobs that allow people to be active and use their physical body.

Yes, I use a LOT of brain power during the day, but I genuinely would like to lift something heavy, or build something, or be outside. Now, would that grow old quickly? Maybe. But for some people? Being in a desk job is torture, and in today's more social media fast-paced world I think that Gen-Z and Gen-Alpha kids would actually enjoy those physical jobs, more than jobs that require them to sit in a cubicle all day. I know that, that idea would probably be very difficult to convince them of initially, but I think after they tried it, a lot of kids in the younger generations would genuinely enjoy the satisfaction of a hard day's work in a more physically intensive job or trade.

Professions and life paths that make us happier and more financially stable are all worthy of exploration. Even if they require a degree or not. And hopefully as the population becomes happier and wealthier, productivity and civility can return to our society.

 

[Uruk-Hai]

We still have a mindset that a job that requires a college degree = financial stability.

I know the rest of your post was going somewhere else with this statement, but this is maybe the biggest misconception in America's workforce today. And a lot it (most all of it) is parent-driven because they don't want to look "lesser" than their neighbors' kids who go to MIT or whatever.

Anyone want to guess how many good plumbers/electricians/HVACers/roofers I know (and I know a lot of them) who aren't very well-off?

I'm lucky in that I've been in construction for 40 years and have "guys", but even I have have issues getting the good ones lined up when I need work because they are so insanely busy.

Parents: send your kids to trade school if there's no clear avenue for a white-collar job without crippling debt.

Trades are no longer "the second option" or for the "kids where college just inst for them". If youre smart, start in a apprenticeship program and you'll be up $200k after 4 years instead of in the hole.

That isn't true either. Most apprentices won't average 25 dollars an hour for the first 4 years. Plus some apprenticeships make you take an unpaid day off for school, union dues, tools etc.

Last time I checked - and it's been a while, so I may be wrong - less than 20% of construction jobs are union. Union dues suck, but job security and wage scales are so high it almost doesn't matter. And just to clarify - I'm an open-shop guy.

I have never met one person coming out of apprenticeship (or equivalent, if open-shop) deeply in debt.

True, but these unions aren't just hiring anyone that comes in and it doesn't start off making 80k or more a year. It is usually like 35 to 40k.

What do teachers start out at and how much debt are they carrying on average?

My point is that it's easier to get to fine net income through a trade - if you're good at your trade and not an absolute silver spoon prodigy in college. Also, you don't have to work 80 hours a week carrying ruinous debt.

I respect the hell out of teachers - I come from a family of them - but not everyone has to go to grad school to be a success.

 

[Gally]

Going to your state school and coming out with an education degree and becoming a high school science teacher, is no longer a one-way ticket to middle class, suburban bliss.

What -is- available (if you get lucky) that CAN get you to middle class and beyond, that kids see all the time? Influencers. Celebrities. Rappers. Politicians. Several of those professions are college degree (debt) optional, which makes them even more desireable to young people.

I think these go hand in hand though. Because of the influencers/celebrities being such in the forefront all the time it skews what middle class life looks like. The desires to be closer to that sucks resources that should go to saving so you can get to the "middle class, suburban bliss" away. They see these stupid influencers all the time and look at their life and the time frame gets screwed which crushes their will.

I think those jobs can be a ticket to a solid life but they want more due to the influencer life and it seems unattainable.