SproutDaddy
Footballguy
The Broncos don’t have the draft capital to acquire Payton.
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NYJ OC Nathaniel Hackett - New Frontiers In NFL Nepotism (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter rockaction
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They have a first to give. Obviously it’s not ideal given they have other needs. They could always trade a player or sweeten the deal with cash. It will really just comes down to whether Payton wants the job.I don’t know why he would but maybe.
He may see all the talent the Broncos are missing due to injury and maybe feel they aren’t as far away as some might think.
Chaka
Footballguy
Maybe. Probably for the right money and guarantees of job security. He isn't afraid to gamble but they are already down picks from Wilson, who knows how many more they would give up to get Payton.
But, I agree for the right package he'd take it.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Fair enough.
But speaking of piling on, how's Tuabow looking now?
Just checking.
The Kerminator
Footballguy
Boston
Footballguy
Unless Payton is a big fan of Wilson I would be surprised if he goes there (if he is than they are right there as a top candidate)...he will be able to go to which ever job opening he wants, and I don't think $ will be an issue wherever he wants to go...it is not often that a high-end, known commodity like Payton is available...Payton has stated that he wants a warm weather location so that limits his potential landing spots...even though they have winning records if either Dallas or LAC get bounced in the first round I could see him ending up there although Dallas could be dicey because I'm not sure Jerry would give up the personnel duties but maybe he would for Payton...like Denver, Arizona is a location that would depend on how he feels about the QB...if he does like Murray that would be a good fit because it would check all the boxes...a long-shot could be Houston if he feels a QB like Young is someone you can build around but from a big picture standpoint the question is does he want to get involved in a major rebuild...Carolina and the Saints also fit the warm weather criteria so they go on the list but not sure how appealing those jobs are to him.
moleculo
Footballguy
Don't assume the Walton family can't afford Payton.
moleculo
Footballguy
Hackett's biggest mistakes (IMO)
- inexperienced staff. here are the staff members for whom this was the first time they held that position in the NFL:
- Hackett - HC
- Outten - OC (a lackey brought in from GB. I have no idea what he does, given playcalling went to Kubiak)
- Evero - DC (his college roommate. This one actually worked out well)
- Moreland - TE
- Barry - OL (released the great Mike Munchak for this scrub)
- Dixon - DL
- Hansen - LB
- Parker - DB
- scheme inflexibility - Russell Wilson is not a west coast offense guy. Hackett tried to force Wilson into what he wanted to do, and then when it didn't work, he wasn't able to adapt.
- no starters played during training camp. Pre-season games aren't just for players, it's for coaches too. They didn't get a chance to see how the starters performed under live fire, nor did they get a chance to get their act together. That all became apparent during the SEA debacle, week 1.
- too buddy/buddy with Wilson. It's obvious that Russel Wilson should not have a say in what goes on the menu. Russ needs a coach to reign him in, not run roughshod over the rest of the franchise, the way it happened. His own office? His own staff getting access to Dove Valley? GTFO. Not even Peyton Manning had all of that.
- not held players accountable enough. how many times was he going to give the ball to MGIII (aka butter fingers) in crucial situations? How long did it take for the team to relieve him of his duties? Why didn't Hackett do something about the offense earlier in the season - i.e. fire Outten and bring in someone who knows something about offense?
ignatiusjreilly
Footballguy
Defense was atrocious. Pretty sure Rob Ryan was involved for at least part of that. I remember there was a stretch where you prayed your fantasy players were up against NO.
Once he hired Allen that seemed to stabilize, and after their incredible 2017 draft the D became one of the team's strengths
babydemon90
Footballguy
I assume you mean preseason, not training camp? But starters not playing during preseason is pretty much a league-wide phenomenon now. Here in Philly radio talkers were convinced the same and criticized Philly for not playing anyone in the preseason, and thought we'd be unprepared to start the season.
IMO it's more about preparation by the coaches and players during training camp. a few snaps in preseason doesn't have a noticeable impact, for or against.
massraider
Footballguy
Because he's the first name people think of?
Doug B
Footballguy
ignatiusjreilly's Cliffs Notes are accurate. He will surely remember the underlying pitfalls that befell the Saints in those years:
1) Then All-Pro TE Jimmy Graham forcing his way off the Saints in 2015 after failed contract negotiations. Graham wanted top WR pay, Saints held firm and traded him to Seattle)
2) Some disastrous defensive free agent pickups (e.g. S Jarius Byrd, CB Brandon Browner).
3) Defensive stalwarts from the 2009-2013 years either retired or moved on (DE Will Smith, LB Jonathan Vilma, S Roman Harper, S Malcolm Jenkins, CB Jabari Greer) and weren't adequately replaced in the short term.
4) Fallout from 2012's Bountygate, including the loss of draft picks.
5) Sack-leader DE Junior Galette jettisoned from the team for conduct detrimental one season after getting signed to a huge deal.
6) Four defensive draft picks in 2014 all washed out including 2nd-round CB Stanley Jean-Baptiste, who never started a game in New Orleans. There were a few more defensive washouts between the 2013 and 2015 drafts as well.
There's more (e.g. CJ Spiller not panning out), but that's pretty much what I can recall without thinking too hard.
moleculo
Footballguy
Because the coaches were unprepared when the regular season came. I think Hackett et al needed time with the starters in game situation. I mean, the Broncos clearly weren't ready to play Seattle, and never dug out of that hole.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
Wait, you think he "needed time"? What, to learn how to manage a clock? You're a Head Coach at the highest level, that **** should be taken care of, period. He had MONTHS to be ready for it. Literally, years to grasp it even.
Oh it was more than one game, that's for sure. You don't lead the NFL in penalties, punts and PPG (as far as last is concerned), because you're a good coach. And on top of that, with a very good Defense to fall back on.
Hackett road some coattails in Green Bay, no question.
He didn't need time and it wasn't one game, or even close to that. He's incapable. It happens. It happened. Next.
SproutDaddy
Footballguy
That wasn’t part of my statement.
Harry Frogfish
Footballguy
But your statement was something to the effect that the Broncos don't have the draft capital to "acquire" Payton.
Um, I'm pretty sure they do, IF they really want him. No matter what Fans or FFer's think, the Broncos can do whatever the F they want now. Whether those moves work out, is another question.
Any non-Bronco fan is hoping this thing takes forever or falls on its face, but there's a jealousy buried underneath it all. It's fun to watch unfold.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
People are jealous of the Broncos?
I have seen it mentioned multiple times by various posters that Denver is out picks this year (2023) and next (2024.) It was said multiple times in the last game Xmas day thread for example. Not sure where this misconception came from as the trade was their ‘22 1st & 2nd and ‘23 1st and 2nd plus a few players. They have all their picks in 2024, are currently missing their now early 1 & 2 in 2023 but acquired SF’s late 1st and the Colts early 3rd thru other trades.
The hit in picks certainly hurts them long-term but biggest issue going forward for the Bronco’s is Wilson’s terrible contract. If a new coach can’t tailor a scheme to get somewhat passable QB play out of him they are likely going to have to eat a massive cap hit in one or both of ‘24 & ‘25. After that the Broncos have ignored their offensive line in the draft for far too long. They have no RT, their LT is on IR, and their IOL is shaky at best.
Doug B
Footballguy
I think what SproutDaddy is getting at is that since Sean Payton is still under contract with the Saints, Payton is not a free agent coach. Denver and New Orleans will have to negotiate compensation to the Saints before the Broncos can sign Payton.
The idea among Saints' fans is that the package of picks required to convince the Saints to release Payton starts at two #1s based on what Oakland got for John Gruden in 2002. There are good arguments for and against that level of compensation being the actual floor for the Saints. Furthermore, it's also possible for Bronco's ownership to make up a deficit of draft picks with straight cash paid to the Saints.
So ... another team besides the Broncos probably can offer a better draft-pick package to the Saints for Payton. Not having a first-round pick in 2023 or a second in 2024, a generous draft package will certainly help move the needle for the Saints. Also in consideration is the personal relationship Payton has with Saints GM Mickey Loomis and owner Gayle Benson -- there is talk (nothing public) that Loomis and Benson don't necessarily want to overly hinder Payton's next move and so will not demand a Gruden-sized haul to release Payton from his contract. In sum: it's not really as pat as many local fans think.
The problem is that they refused to pay up for a QB in the past. They brought in clunkers like Keenum, Flacco or Bridgewater. They whiffed on Lynch, Osweiller, and Lock in the draft. When they actually where in position draft wise to go big they passed on Allen and Fields. This was all Elway except the passing on Fields part. He won't be a part of the decision making going forward. That being said, it's still just a 50/50 hit rate on QBs drafted high in the first. The reality is that there are only a handful of studs at the position. This is why the trade for Wilson at the time seemed like a no brainer. I'll admit he wasn't my first choice and I was very nervous about it. I don't like the guy and I don't think he is a good leader. I was also very concerned as to why the Hawks would be willing to get rid of an "elite franchise" QB. It turned out he is not "elite". He is a system QB at this point. He has lost his elite scrambling ability and has nothing else to fall back on. He can still be a solid QB with good coaching, a solid line, a scheme that fits him and elite targets. He just never will live up to the contract.
I know you’ve been beating the Fields drum for a while but roughly 7 other QB needy teams passed on him too and honestly the jury is still out on him. I think coaching has been a big Whiff for the Broncos as well, I highly doubt Allen turns into the QB he did without Daboll coming in at the OC position, how quickly we forget Allen looked like a borderline bust early on. Hackett was obviously a terrible hire and so was Vance Joseph & Fangio IMO.
But as many teams have shown it’s hard to find good coaches and good QB’s. Maybe if the league hadn’t of changed the rules so much over the years to favor passing offense we wouldn’t be in such an extreme QB have vs have not situation. But it’s led to more scoring, more excitement, higher ratings and more money so what do I know?
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
If it's Ownership then Denver will be a Bottom 5 team for a long time to come.
Ask Miami fans what happens when ineptitude starts at the top and trickles down from ownership.
No tug o war Meno, just my opinion
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Agreed, I see Sean Payton wanting to take a QB with a lot of upside that is not a rookie but can still be molded like he did with Drew Brees.
Payton with LAC seems like a terrific option for him to work with Herbert
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Let me make sure I have this correct
Because of stated facts after Week 12
You waited until after Week 15 and the firing of Hackett where MoP didn't post a single word
And your natural reaction was to dig this post up and try to do what exactly?
Because MoP roots for Miami and has been one of the biggest Tua critics in the Miami Dolphins thread
Usually drawing the anger of fellow Phinsfans at times...
Just checking
I agree the jury is still out on Fields. The jury was still out on Josh Allen until he got Diggs. The same could be said for Hurts and Tua until they upgraded big time at receiver. I don't think Fields is ever gonna be a great passer but he is such a huge play maker with his legs that I think he will win a lot of games for Chicago. He just needs a stud receiver and he'll be good to go. I bet Paton wishes he could go back in time and draft Fields. We'd still have all of our picks and a lot more money with a much more fun QB to watch. I think it was more about Paton getting duped into thinking he was getting Rodgers than him not liking Fields. An "imminent" trade fell through prior to the draft. I think there was a gentlemen's agreement from Rodgers people that he would be coming to Denver the following year.
I agree with this. There is literally a handful of great QB's and great coaches. A player of Wilson's stature doesn't become available via trade ever. I don't blame Paton for making the move given he passed on Fields and the Rodgers deal fell through. The fans would have revolted with another year of Teddy Bridgewater. I suspect the Wilson camp demanded the Broncos extend his contract as part of the deal. This is obviously the real problem here.
It seems like this option is becoming less and less likely. The Chargers have made the playoffs and they have done it missing key players most of the year. If they go one and done there will be a chance. If they win one or go deep into the playoffs I would think it's not happening.
I personally would not want to coach Wilson. That being said, this could be a win win for Payton. If he is able to get Russ back up to standards and the teams wins he looks like a hero. If Russ sucks again then we know it's not the coaching and the Broncos can maybe snag one of the stud QB's coming out in 2024 or 2025. Whoever the new coach is I'm sure they are going to make it clear that they are not tied to Wilsons success.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Personally, I think almost All 32 NFL teams minus a handful like New England would FIRE their current head coach immediately if Payton indicated he wanted to be the Head Coach of their football team.
Maybe I'm off here, but a man like Sean Payton doesn't come along everyday for potential head coach hirings.
LAC hasn't done anything special since Herbert arrived, this would be Year 3, technically they haven't made the Playoffs...correction, guess they have to open on the road as a Wildcard
The current HC has been ridiculed over numerous decisions he has made.
I can't imagine it would be that painful to walk him out the door
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Desert_Power
Footballguy
I thought they clinched on Monday? I agree that the Chargers should move on from Staley if they could get Payton but do not think that is a remote possibility. Teams have difficulties firing clearly bad coaches when they aren't performing well. Making the playoffs is more than enough for Staley.
fatness
Footballguy
Miami's way above being a Bottom 5 team.
They also weren't tanking the other year when you were convinced they were tanking.
I know you're a fan of Miami and I get that. But I think you're overreacting.
This ownership group did not hire them. They just did not see benefit of an in-season coaching change and wanted to give a first year head coach with a new QB at least the benefit of full season which I think was a wise move for a few reasons. I just fail to see how that is inept or reason to think that being patient in a pretty much lost season is a reason to think this ownership group has them heading to bottom 5 status for a long time.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
How many Playoff appearances does Miami have in the last 20 seasons?
When was the last time Miami won a Playoff game and how does that measure up to perceived bottom dwellers around the NFL?
Only owner to forfeit a 1st Rd pick and suspended for 8 games, that's hard to do.
Lifelong Miami fan
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
The Jets are close to having a very good team, and they do this?
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
The Looney Rule® You should trademark that.
Grahamburn
Footballguy
The Bucs have had 2 interviews with Klint Kubiak.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Well, why wouldn't you want an offensive mind that just finished last in points per game. There goes my dynasty team down the toilet that has Breece and Wilson.
Desert_Power
Footballguy
Thought the arrow was pointing up strongly for the Jets, this is a bad hire.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
That's the best the jets and Saleh could do apparently
I hear Hackett excels at clock management
I hear Hackett excels at clock management
Leroy Hoard
Footballguy
It's definitely not the same job. Saleh will be making the final decisions.
As a resident of Denver, I can only say "Not this **** again!"
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