***Official*** 2009 Washington Redskins Thread (1 Viewer)

[dgreen]

A source told Chris Russell of 106.7 The Fan that Mason is safe. He's staying on the 53-man roster.Alridge took Thomas' roster spot, so I'm not totally sure why there's so much talk about who will be cut. They don't need to cut anyone...right now. But, I do think Rock is gone whenever they make their next move.

Most teams don't carry 4 RB's, let alone 5 of them. That is not even counting any FB's either. So, it's only logical that the talk of who could get cut would come up.Then again, we (Redskins) don't appear to be "most teams." DanMan and Boy Blunder save the day....errrr.....strike again!

I agree they probably have too many RBs. But, I believe their roster is at 53 even with Alridge because Thomas is on IR. So, if they cut Rock (or another RB), they will then sign someone. That's certainly possible, but not currently necessary. They entered the season with more OL than most teams, so they are ok there (numbers-wise, not necessarily talent-wise).

 

[Ripleys]

Has the NFL trade deadline passed? If not, maybe the Skins are going to trade Portis or Betts...I really wish that would happen at this point.

 

[dgreen]

Has the NFL trade deadline passed? If not, maybe the Skins are going to trade Portis or Betts...I really wish that would happen at this point.

No, it hasn't passed. I believe it's after week 4.But, trading either of them isn't cap friendly. I believe I heard the Redskins would need a trade partner to take on the remainder of Betts' contract as part of a deal and that likely wouldn't happen.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Has the NFL trade deadline passed? If not, maybe the Skins are going to trade Portis or Betts...I really wish that would happen at this point.

Portis' contract = non-tradeable. Betts is probably effectively worthless in trade for anything more than a 2nd rounder, but what team out there really needs Betts anyway such that they'd trade for him? BTW, Mason may be considered "safe" as far as the team is concerned on the IR. Food for thought. Again, I'd be surprised if Rock is let go because he fills too many roles on special teams, and they already have opted with Mitchell and Mason and now Aldridge to keep guys who are not big ST contributors.

 

[dgreen]

BTW, I like bringing Alridge back. And I say that as someone who is still a big believer in Portis. But this team needs a change of pace. It was nice to see Mason make the team, but I said at the time that they needed a change of pace RB. Portis, Betts, and Mason are all similar styles at various skill levels. Betts is a poor man's Portis and Mason is a poor man's Betts. Betts and Mason don't offer the team anything unique like Alridge can. Of course, he will need to hold onto the ball and eliminate his fumbling issues. However, I think I'd exchange the occasional fumble for the potential of a big play given the offenses problems.

 

[dgreen]

BTW, Mason may be considered "safe" as far as the team is concerned on the IR. Food for thought. Again, I'd be surprised if Rock is let go because he fills too many roles on special teams, and they already have opted with Mitchell and Mason and now Aldridge to keep guys who are not big ST contributors.

From what I heard, the source said Mason was safe on the 53-man roster. That could have been the reporter misunderstanding the source, though.Rock being a ST captain would make his release somewhat surprising. But, the guy is probably replaceable on the field. He's definitely replaceable as a KR. I think Thomas and Betts could immediately replace him there. I'm not sure how difficult the upback position is on punts, but I'd hope they have someone who can adequately step in there. Rock also covers kickoffs and, again, I'd hope they have someone else who can step in there.And don't underestimate the FO's reported dislike of Rock. He has publicly #####ed about a few things over the years and I've heard reports that Snyder and Vinny aren't fans.

 

[dgreen]

From Keim:

The Redskins did look at other linemen, including some that they had cut earlier this month. But they did not think any would be able to help them right away. Those they did look at likely would still be available next week should they want to make another change.

It does make you wonder what this means for the other backs. If they decide Alridge can help them and he stays beyond this week, then --- and this is pure speculation -- Marcus Mason would be the most likely to be cut. Rock Cartwright is likely secure through this season because of his special teams prowess that goes beyond returning kickoffs.

 

[fatness]

All of this Zorn stuff is playing out exactly like Spurrier though. Maybe not quite as bad as spurrier, but it's kind of bad. Rather than surrounding himself with veteran coordinators he called up a buddy with about as much experience as him at this level. The only saving grace is the D-coordinator. Blache isn't perfect, but he keeps the scores low, and if he wasn't here things would be REALLY ugly. Post-game interviews are also reminiscent of Spurrier. You can tell he just wants to get the hell out of there, cliches and excuses flow like wine and they're generally very uncomfortable to watch. Zorn isn't going to lay down and phone in a resignation from the golf course though, he's passionate and wants to be doing this but is just way too overwhelmed and he has nobody to point him in the right direction.

That's a very good explanation and I agree with all of it.

 

[fatness]

I knew you never read anyone else's posts! I knew it!

Post more pictures!

 

[fatness]

*(On second fourth-down call late in game): "I had three timeouts so I wanted to use one there and take a breath and think about the situation. We felt like we could get the first down and picked out what I felt was the best play, running right behind Chris Samuels. What happened on the line of scrimmage, our offensive line decided to block it out a little more instead of more downhill and it strung the play out. It was a very frustrating play to watch because had we blocked it differently – and it’s their choice – it might have been a different outcome. If I was to look back on that call, I would call the same play."remember that Gordon Gecko line in WallStreet:if this guy owned a funeral home, no one would die!

 

[Marvelous]

A source told Chris Russell of 106.7 The Fan that Mason is safe. He's staying on the 53-man roster.Alridge took Thomas' roster spot, so I'm not totally sure why there's so much talk about who will be cut. They don't need to cut anyone...right now. But, I do think Rock is gone whenever they make their next move.

It's a little debatable keeping 4 tailbacks. It is very unusual to keep 5. I doubt they keep 5 long term.Here's another interpretation of signing Aldridge: When the Redskins broke camp, they were optimistic and Aldridge's fumbling was too risky to put into a game. Two games later, Zorn and Vinny are desparte and need Aldridge's speed to add a new dimension to the offense. The fumbling is worth the risk when you are desparate.If this scenario is true, Aldrige may be active this week.

 

[dgreen]

A source told Chris Russell of 106.7 The Fan that Mason is safe. He's staying on the 53-man roster.Alridge took Thomas' roster spot, so I'm not totally sure why there's so much talk about who will be cut. They don't need to cut anyone...right now. But, I do think Rock is gone whenever they make their next move.

It's a little debatable keeping 4 tailbacks. It is very unusual to keep 5. I doubt they keep 5 long term.Here's another interpretation of signing Aldridge: When the Redskins broke camp, they were optimistic and Aldridge's fumbling was too risky to put into a game. Two games later, Zorn and Vinny are desparte and need Aldridge's speed to add a new dimension to the offense. The fumbling is worth the risk when you are desparate.If this scenario is true, Aldrige may be active this week.

I definitely expect him to take Mason's spot this week and be active.

 

[fatness]

Apparently, Coach Jim Zorn needs to see more from Chad Rinehart.Although many in the organization expected Rinehart to be named the starter to replace injured right guard Randy Thomas, Rinehart will compete this week with guard-center Will Montgomery, Rinehart said before practice today at Redskins Park.

Jason Reid

 

[buster c]

What is Mason doing for the team? He's the 3rd string tailback who doesn't play special teams. He had some nice runs in the preseason against guys who are now dealing rock on a street corner near you. That's it.

Speaking of Rock, he isn't going to be of much value lining up in the i-formation, but he knows how to return kickoffs. His stat line over the years is more than respectable. The numbers bear that out. And anyone who criticizes how he returns kicks must not understand the concept of following your blocking. Before they changed the rules on how teams can use the wedge, he was textbook. Right up there with Herb Mul-key, IMO.

And I promise you that the game after he gets cut is a game we lose because of a blocked punt. Punt protection - yet another under-appreciated role he fills.

Cut Mason, sign Kendall and drop 30+ on the Lions or this thing will only get uglier.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

BTW, I like bringing Alridge back. And I say that as someone who is still a big believer in Portis. But this team needs a change of pace. It was nice to see Mason make the team, but I said at the time that they needed a change of pace RB. Portis, Betts, and Mason are all similar styles at various skill levels. Betts is a poor man's Portis and Mason is a poor man's Betts. Betts and Mason don't offer the team anything unique like Alridge can. Of course, he will need to hold onto the ball and eliminate his fumbling issues. However, I think I'd exchange the occasional fumble for the potential of a big play given the offenses problems.

If you're right, it's just as likely, however, that they've decided to dump Betts in favor of Aldridge if they've concluded that Mason can fill Betts' role (and do so more cheaply). I still suspect there's an issue with Betts, whether it's injury or just that the team has decided that he's declined somehow.

 

[dgreen]

Analysis of Zorn's 4th down decisions, which I loved at the time (and still do). As tentative as Zorn seems in the redzone, he has a killer instinct when it comes to putting games away. We saw it last year and we saw it again Sunday. He was throwing on the final drive and going for it on 4th down. I like that. It's one of the biggest complaints of Gibbs 2.0 and one of the few areas Zorn seems to "get it."

 

[Sidewinder16]

*(On second fourth-down call late in game): "I had three timeouts so I wanted to use one there and take a breath and think about the situation. We felt like we could get the first down and picked out what I felt was the best play, running right behind Chris Samuels. What happened on the line of scrimmage, our offensive line decided to block it out a little more instead of more downhill and it strung the play out. It was a very frustrating play to watch because had we blocked it differently – and it’s their choice – it might have been a different outcome. If I was to look back on that call, I would call the same play."remember that Gordon Gecko line in WallStreet:if this guy owned a funeral home, no one would die!

I get the cleverness of the quip, but given what we know now, I don't get why Zorn is still taking the heat for this.

 

[DCThunder]

You know, everyone is just assuming that Vinny is somehow immune from getting whacked if/when this season turns ugly and they finish 4-12. But now that he's "in charge" and has the impressive title, his butt is on the line too. Now while I'm sure he's throwing more guys under the bus than a room full of Metro bus drivers, I don't think it's a foregone conclusion that if his departure was the only way to get a Skeletor or Cowher or Billick (yes I said the B word) to come be coach, Danny would look for another raquetball partner in a heartbeat.

 

[dgreen]

Hog Heaven's offensive review vs. the Rams. That's where I got the link to the previously posted 4th down analysis.

Interesting bit in the "The Receivers" section:

If the Redskins are in the business of winning games, Randle El and Kelly should be the starting receivers on this team, and I would have Santana Moss and Marko Mitchell splitting reps as the No. 3 WR (with Randle El in the slot when applicable, and on the outside when not).

The whole section is an interesting read and he clearly explains his conclusion.

 

[dgreen]

Hog Heaven's defensive analysis vs. the Rams.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Analysis of Zorn's 4th down decisions, which I loved at the time (and still do). As tentative as Zorn seems in the redzone, he has a killer instinct when it comes to putting games away. We saw it last year and we saw it again Sunday. He was throwing on the final drive and going for it on 4th down. I like that. It's one of the biggest complaints of Gibbs 2.0 and one of the few areas Zorn seems to "get it."

I agree. This was not a complaint I had about Zorn. He just needs to put the game more into Campbell's hands, particularly in the red zone.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Hog Heaven's offensive review vs. the Rams. That's where I got the link to the previously posted 4th down analysis.

Interesting bit in the "The Receivers" section:

If the Redskins are in the business of winning games, Randle El and Kelly should be the starting receivers on this team, and I would have Santana Moss and Marko Mitchell splitting reps as the No. 3 WR (with Randle El in the slot when applicable, and on the outside when not).

The whole section is an interesting read and he clearly explains his conclusion.

Dead wrong IMHO. Moss has his limitations, but ARE is not an outside receiver. Maybe throw ARE there in a few specific situations, but he otherwise belongs in the slot. Moss is your outside deep threat, for better or worse.

 

[fatness]

*(On second fourth-down call late in game): "I had three timeouts so I wanted to use one there and take a breath and think about the situation. We felt like we could get the first down and picked out what I felt was the best play, running right behind Chris Samuels. What happened on the line of scrimmage, our offensive line decided to block it out a little more instead of more downhill and it strung the play out. It was a very frustrating play to watch because had we blocked it differently – and it’s their choice – it might have been a different outcome. If I was to look back on that call, I would call the same play."remember that Gordon Gecko line in WallStreet:if this guy owned a funeral home, no one would die!

I get the cleverness of the quip, but given what we know now, I don't get why Zorn is still taking the heat for this.

He's taking heat because the defense expected the play and he's blaming his players instead of his playcall (again). What successful coach regularly explains things that go wrong with an "if they had only done what I wanted" defense? And he's taking the heat because cumulatively his playcalling in the red zone and in critical game situations has been predictable crap that usually fails, just like this.

 

[TankRizzo]

Analysis of Zorn's 4th down decisions, which I loved at the time (and still do). As tentative as Zorn seems in the redzone, he has a killer instinct when it comes to putting games away. We saw it last year and we saw it again Sunday. He was throwing on the final drive and going for it on 4th down. I like that. It's one of the biggest complaints of Gibbs 2.0 and one of the few areas Zorn seems to "get it."

I agree. This was not a complaint I had about Zorn. He just needs to put the game more into Campbell's hands, particularly in the red zone.

I don't know if it was killer instinct or not....to me it looked more like he was a cornered rat. He knew the coming wrath from not scoring points and I think that was a last ditch effort to get into the endzone. I say this mostly because of his playcalling when in the redzone. The playing it safe inside the 20 is in sharp contrast to throwing caution into the wind and going for it on 4th. I think he stepped back, saw the score and instantly felt the pressure to try and save some face.

 

[Sidewinder16]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?

How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

 

[dgreen]

Analysis of Zorn's 4th down decisions, which I loved at the time (and still do). As tentative as Zorn seems in the redzone, he has a killer instinct when it comes to putting games away. We saw it last year and we saw it again Sunday. He was throwing on the final drive and going for it on 4th down. I like that. It's one of the biggest complaints of Gibbs 2.0 and one of the few areas Zorn seems to "get it."

I agree. This was not a complaint I had about Zorn. He just needs to put the game more into Campbell's hands, particularly in the red zone.

I don't know if it was killer instinct or not....to me it looked more like he was a cornered rat. He knew the coming wrath from not scoring points and I think that was a last ditch effort to get into the endzone. I say this mostly because of his playcalling when in the redzone. The playing it safe inside the 20 is in sharp contrast to throwing caution into the wind and going for it on 4th. I think he stepped back, saw the score and instantly felt the pressure to try and save some face.

But we have evidence from his last year "going for the win". He went for it on 4th down at Philly to seal the game. He continually threw the ball with the lead in the fourth quarter to pick up first downs and run clock. If this was the first time he made a similar decision, I'd probably agree with you.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

I'm all over this message board saying that when we hire coaches I want to hire the next young coach to emerge, and not the last one. So draining is that job that very few of the very good guys succeed more in their second, third, etc. gigs than they did in their first, and that's true even if you look at great ones like Parcells. The only recent exceptions I can think of are Belichick and Dungy, and not surprisingly they had two all-time great, sure fire HoF QB's to help them in that regard. Get someone young and hungry if you want to have big success over a long time. It won't always work, but you won't hit home runs unless you swing for the fences, so I'm not afraid of striking out.

 

[Sidewinder16]

He's taking heat because the defense expected the play and he's blaming his players instead of his playcall (again). What successful coach regularly explains things that go wrong with an "if they had only done what I wanted" defense? And he's taking the heat because cumulatively his playcalling in the red zone and in critical game situations has been predictable crap that usually fails, just like this.

It wouldn't be the first time in the NFL (or even in recent Redskins history) that a defense knew the offense was going to run on 4th and 1 and the offense was still able to get the first down. Even with 11 in the box, it's hardly unreasonable to think a team can't squeak out 1 yard. Good teams can get a first down fairly regularly in that situation, and the 'Skins, with the correct blocking scheme, had just done so 4 plays earlier. Why would anyone think it's impossible for them to do it again?And Zorn is hardly the only one blaming the players (if he is even placing blame, which I don't think he is). Every player I've heard/read quotes from, including the ones that have no qualms speaking their minds, has said that the play failed because the blocking scheme was changed on the field. They didn't run the play as it was called, and it failed.

 

[Sidewinder16]

Get someone young and hungry if you want to have big success over a long time. It won't always work, but you won't hit home runs unless you swing for the fences, so I'm not afraid of striking out.

Then I guess my next question would be, have they really already struck out with Zorn?

 

[TobiasFunke]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?

How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

Highly unlikely? That suggests an overwhelming number of failures that counter the successes of Shula, Parcells (twice) and Holmgren. The only real retread failure I see on this list is Ditka in New Orleans. I'd consider Jimmy Johnson at Miami to be a wash- decent teams, but no deep playoff runs.So if there's three or four good hires, one bad hire, and one so-so hire out of the examples I remember, why do you say success is highly unlikely? Am I forgetting like ten guys that got rehired?

 

[Sidewinder16]

I say this mostly because of his playcalling when in the redzone. The playing it safe inside the 20 is in sharp contrast to throwing caution into the wind and going for it on 4th. I think he stepped back, saw the score and instantly felt the pressure to try and save some face.

A halfback pass is "playing it safe inside the 20"?

 

[dgreen]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?

How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

Highly unlikely? That suggests an overwhelming number of failures that counter the successes of Shula, Parcells (twice) and Holmgren. The only real retread failure I see on this list is Ditka in New Orleans. I'd consider Jimmy Johnson at Miami to be a wash- decent teams, but no deep playoff runs.So if there's three or four good hires, one bad hire, and one so-so hire out of the examples I remember, why do you say success is highly unlikely? Am I forgetting like ten guys that got rehired?

I believe he's referring to winning a SB, which should be the ultimate goal of any team. Nobody has won a SB with two different teams. Parcells and Holmgren have reached the SB with two teams, but they each lost.

 

[TobiasFunke]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?

How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

Highly unlikely? That suggests an overwhelming number of failures that counter the successes of Shula, Parcells (twice) and Holmgren. The only real retread failure I see on this list is Ditka in New Orleans. I'd consider Jimmy Johnson at Miami to be a wash- decent teams, but no deep playoff runs.So if there's three or four good hires, one bad hire, and one so-so hire out of the examples I remember, why do you say success is highly unlikely? Am I forgetting like ten guys that got rehired?

I believe he's referring to winning a SB, which should be the ultimate goal of any team. Nobody has won a SB with two different teams. Parcells and Holmgren have reached the SB with two teams, but they each lost.

There's 30 teams in the NFL, all of them are trying to win the Super Bowl, and the 12-team playoffs are single elimination. It's preposterous to "expect" a Super Bowl to any degree of certainty. All you can ask is that your coach put his team in the playoffs on a semi-regular basis, so that if the breaks go their way they can hopefully make it to the big game. Most of the former Super Bowl-winning coaches who have moved on to new teams have done exactly that. I'd be absolutely delighted with a coach who can get us to the playoffs as often as Holmgren did in Seattle, or Parcells in NE and Dallas, or even Johnson in Miami.

 

[dgreen]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

I'm all over this message board saying that when we hire coaches I want to hire the next young coach to emerge, and not the last one. So draining is that job that very few of the very good guys succeed more in their second, third, etc. gigs than they did in their first, and that's true even if you look at great ones like Parcells. The only recent exceptions I can think of are Belichick and Dungy, and not surprisingly they had two all-time great, sure fire HoF QB's to help them in that regard. Get someone young and hungry if you want to have big success over a long time. It won't always work, but you won't hit home runs unless you swing for the fences, so I'm not afraid of striking out.

Gruden can be argued as someone with more success in his 2nd job than 1st job. He won a SB, but then was simply average.

 

[fatness]

And Zorn is hardly the only one blaming the players (if he is even placing blame, which I don't think he is). Every player I've heard/read quotes from, including the ones that have no qualms speaking their minds, has said that the play failed because the blocking scheme was changed on the field. They didn't run the play as it was called, and it failed.

Every player is being a good soldier, being a team guy. There are no players who have spoken up and said "his playcalling is bad, we all know that, but the best we can do is run the plays and hope he changes", but do you really think none of them are thinking that, or saying it privately? They know what's going on much better than we do. But they're team players and aren't going to say it.It's not possible to make the case that he's a good coach, but that the players don't do what he tells them to do. The second part negates the first.

 

[Sidewinder16]

Most of the former Super Bowl-winning coaches who have moved on to new teams have done exactly that. I'd be absolutely delighted with a coach who can get us to the playoffs as often as Holmgren did in Seattle, or Parcells in NE and Dallas, or even Johnson in Miami.

Of the 26 coaches that have won SBs, 9 were hired by different teams sometime after their SB win, and only 3 had decent/consistent playoff success (the 3 you listed). For numerous reasons, most of the former SB winning coaches either don't go on to coach other teams, or they don't go on to coach other teams successfully.Personally, I'm with redman on this. Find the young assistant who'll be the next SB winning coach. I'm not yet convinced that Zorn can't be that guy.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

I say this mostly because of his playcalling when in the redzone. The playing it safe inside the 20 is in sharp contrast to throwing caution into the wind and going for it on 4th. I think he stepped back, saw the score and instantly felt the pressure to try and save some face.

A halfback pass is "playing it safe inside the 20"?

No, but that's why I said this recently:

His play-calling is a bizarre combination of conservatism and trying to be too cute with gimmicks. You run the WCO with a decently skilled QB chomping at the bit in a contract year in an offense that finally has complimentary WR's and a very good TE. Throw the ####### ball already!

He's trying too hard. He needs to settle down and allow his QB to make plays. It's the only way he and Campbell have any future with this team beyond this year, and that's true even IMHO if they make the playoffs but get there in a very unimpressive manner that doesn't display a solid passing offense.

 

[TankRizzo]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

Well, you're getting into a numbers game there seeing as how there's only one superbowl winner every year and this decade has been dominated by one coach...the pool of superbowl winning coaches up for being a retread are few and far between. There just isn't a large enough sample size to say this with any kind of conviction.The allure of Cowher was the sheer consistency. He fielded a good team pretty much annually in the face of a LOT of turnover at the player and assistant coach level. I think my main reasons for wanting the 'skins to hire a coach with a pedigree is the hope that they'll command a level of power over personnel decisions. Ever since Marty, it would appear that Snyder is in search of the subservient head coach who will go along with his BS, no questions asked...which is why the search for a HC wound up such a freak show last go around, what coach wants to come in who doesn't get to choose his assistant coaches?

 

[Maroney=Sped]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

I'm all over this message board saying that when we hire coaches I want to hire the next young coach to emerge, and not the last one. So draining is that job that very few of the very good guys succeed more in their second, third, etc. gigs than they did in their first, and that's true even if you look at great ones like Parcells. The only recent exceptions I can think of are Belichick and Dungy, and not surprisingly they had two all-time great, sure fire HoF QB's to help them in that regard. Get someone young and hungry if you want to have big success over a long time. It won't always work, but you won't hit home runs unless you swing for the fences, so I'm not afraid of striking out.

Gruden can be argued as someone with more success in his 2nd job than 1st job. He won a SB, but then was simply average.

True, and actually kudos to him for getting the most out of Brad Johnson, but in some respects he fell into a great situation almost like Barry Switzer too. He's in the discussion though. I'd forgotten about him.

 

[fatness]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

God, Gandhi, Lombardi, and Catherine the Great would not get this team to the Super Bowl this year. The team is not good enough to go there. The real issue is how often teams have replaced a coach early in the season and avoided either a collapse, or establishing too many bad habits that hang over to hurt them the next year. I don't know that answer. To me it's inconceivable that any "name" coach would take this team in the middle of the year without first taking part in offseason player selection and training camp. A newer guy might. It's a grim situation (think Terry Robiskie, Pepper Rogers, Jim Haslett).

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Get someone young and hungry if you want to have big success over a long time. It won't always work, but you won't hit home runs unless you swing for the fences, so I'm not afraid of striking out.

Then I guess my next question would be, have they really already struck out with Zorn?

I'm not quite ready to say that yet, but (to stay with the baseball analogy) Zorn's got a two-strike count and he's facing a 98 mph fastball coming at him right now. He'd better make something happen quickly because he's about out of time.

 

[fatness]

Gruden would love this team. He loves to stockpile aging, over-the-hill veterans. I'd hate to see him for that reason.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

With all the "Zorn is in over his head" and "who will be the coach next week/year" speculation going 'round, I'm wondering if anyone really thinks that bringing in the likes of Cower or Shanahan will be the answer?

How many times in NFL history has a SB winning coach changed teams and been anywhere near as successful for the new team? Looking back, I'm seeing precious few, and the degree of success is varaible and debatable. I think Don Shula is the only coach with a championship with 2 different teams, but that's going back before the Super Bowl era. Holmgren and Parcells were good rehires, but that still suggests that success with a "retread" is highly unlikely. Am I missing anyone?

Well, you're getting into a numbers game there seeing as how there's only one superbowl winner every year and this decade has been dominated by one coach...the pool of superbowl winning coaches up for being a retread are few and far between. There just isn't a large enough sample size to say this with any kind of conviction.The allure of Cowher was the sheer consistency. He fielded a good team pretty much annually in the face of a LOT of turnover at the player and assistant coach level.

I think my main reasons for wanting the 'skins to hire a coach with a pedigree is the hope that they'll command a level of power over personnel decisions. Ever since Marty, it would appear that Snyder is in search of the subservient head coach who will go along with his BS, no questions asked...which is why the search for a HC wound up such a freak show last go around, what coach wants to come in who doesn't get to choose his assistant coaches?

Gibbs didn't fall into that category, but then there's also only one Joe Gibbs as far as the Redskins are concerned.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Gruden would love this team. He loves to stockpile aging, over-the-hill veterans. I'd hate to see him for that reason.

The allure of Gruden to me is that he runs the same offense as Zorn, but then that might be a moot point if Campbell's gone too. I'm just tired of new systems getting shuttled in and out and having to wait for the players to transition while learning them.

 

[fatness]

Then I guess my next question would be, have they really already struck out with Zorn?

I don't think they have yet.But one more game of doing things the same way, and getting the same result, will result in all of us hearing the ice crack under him. Remember when Gibbs was 0-5, and his dynamic air offense kept failing? He changed, to get the team a win. Zorn isn't Gibbs, but he can change. It's time to do that right now.

 

[Maroney=Sped]

Then I guess my next question would be, have they really already struck out with Zorn?

I don't think they have yet.But one more game of doing things the same way, and getting the same result, will result in all of us hearing the ice crack under him. Remember when Gibbs was 0-5, and his dynamic air offense kept failing? He changed, to get the team a win. Zorn isn't Gibbs, but he can change. It's time to do that right now.

But Zorn has had one more offseason than Gibbs did, and Snyder isn't even as patient as The Squire was (he gave Pardee three years, after all).

 

[Sidewinder16]

And Zorn is hardly the only one blaming the players (if he is even placing blame, which I don't think he is). Every player I've heard/read quotes from, including the ones that have no qualms speaking their minds, has said that the play failed because the blocking scheme was changed on the field. They didn't run the play as it was called, and it failed.

Every player is being a good soldier, being a team guy.

Right. Zorn is sinking the ship and every man on the roster is willing to go down with it.

There are no players who have spoken up and said "his playcalling is bad, we all know that, but the best we can do is run the plays and hope he changes", but do you really think none of them are thinking that, or saying it privately?

None of them? Maybe someone is. But if playcalling were really the main issue then there are plenty of players not afraid of "undermining" Zorn, and plenty of journalists willing to pry out a quote, that I believe we would have heard it.

It's not possible to make the case that he's a good coach, but that the players don't do what he tells them to do. The second part negates the first.

You make it sound like the players were deliberately disobeying direct orders. They are allowed to make adjustments on the field. They thought they were making the right read and adjustment, and they weren't. It's one yard. Forget trying to stretch it out. Just pound it up the gut.

 

[buster c]

Analysis of Zorn's 4th down decisions, which I loved at the time (and still do). As tentative as Zorn seems in the redzone, he has a killer instinct when it comes to putting games away. We saw it last year and we saw it again Sunday. He was throwing on the final drive and going for it on 4th down. I like that. It's one of the biggest complaints of Gibbs 2.0 and one of the few areas Zorn seems to "get it."

The FG scenario requires the Rams to drive 70 yds for a TD. The ‘go for it’ option requires the Rams to drive 60 yds to get into FG range, and from there FGs are only good 50% of the time --And that’s only if the 4th and 1 conversion fails!

You're mistaking a "killer instinct" with recklessness. I'd expect the 4th down run to the short side of the field call to be about as successful as a 3rd & 5 from the 5 halfback option pass.Yeah, Zorn has a killer instinct. Only thing is, he's killing his coaching career.

Anyone remember how the Rams beat us last year? Because on Sunday, Zorn was doing his best to reenact that scenario.

 

[fatness]

Hog Heaven's offensive review vs. the Rams. That's where I got the link to the previously posted 4th down analysis.

Interesting bit in the "The Receivers" section:

If the Redskins are in the business of winning games, Randle El and Kelly should be the starting receivers on this team, and I would have Santana Moss and Marko Mitchell splitting reps as the No. 3 WR (with Randle El in the slot when applicable, and on the outside when not).

That's completely wrong. If Randle El took Moss's place in the lineup they'd be able to shut him down with 1 DB instead of the 2 it takes to shut down Moss. Randle El is only good in the slot, as WR3#, where they can't really cover him with their lesser DB's.

 

[fatness]

You make it sound like the players were deliberately disobeying direct orders. They are allowed to make adjustments on the field. They thought they were making the right read and adjustment, and they weren't. It's one yard. Forget trying to stretch it out. Just pound it up the gut.

Almost every play that fails, Zorn offers his analysis of what players did wrong to cause it to fail. I can't believe you don't see the pattern here. Consistent underperformance, explained only in terms of what players did wrong, isn't good coaching. His playcalling is bad, and he blames the players, it's really pretty clear by now.