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I really dont see this team going way out west and winning a game today. I felt better about winning last week, then I do this week.
I will go out on a limb here: The Redskins will play well, have a leading in the 4th quarter, and at the end of the game, when we need the defense to come up with a big stop to hold the lead, they will melt and lose the game. It's a huge imiprovement over the beginning of the season where they looked just plain old inept from the opening kickoff. Mr. Snyder, if you like losing close games, the is sure ain't broke. If you want to win games, it is still very broke.ChrisCooleyFan said:
Except for the fact that there will be a 1st round pick spent on a QB.
Agree to disagree.
Just curious. Have you started watching the games again?
No. I'm still going to see my mom on Sundays which has worked out to be beneficial to her. When I'm home I try to keep up with CBS Sportsline during the games. From what I could tell from Sportsline, the game seemed close in the first half and then it seemed everything went the Skins way in the second. If you and others watched the game I wouldn't mind a summary of it though. I get better information here than in the papers.
17-10
His mancrush on the Skins is almost as bad as Lou Holtz's love of all things Irish.BUT...I do think we're making major strides. I personally would like to see Zorn and co stick around for another year. Things are settling in and for once, we look like we have something resembling an offense. Yes, it was the Raiders, but you've got to start somewhere. Very impressed with the energy shown by Thomas and Ganther. It's something I haven't seen in a while. We need more guys who are out there running like they've got a chip on their shoulder, fighting through tackles, and gaining the extra yard...not falling down at the first sign of contact. You can consider that comment directed at whomever you want, but I wouldn't be the least bit upset if Portis retires and ARE isn't resigned.
After listening to the fans in the last 2 days, I am 100% convinced that if the same vote was taken today it would 58-42 in favor of IN. I guess 10 - 15 years of being average has dulled Skins fans into the thought that every time they win a game it is a sign that this team is "this close" to being a super bowl team. The reality is simple. They are 2-3 in the last 5 games and the two wins came against 2nd half performances of Jamarcus Russel and chris Simms. Yet the same people saying that the team should be blown up now want everybody back. Beat the Cowboys and Giants and then we can talk about the future of this team.
Please do!
Thanks.
I don't think the hate for Vinny will be lessened even if they win out and finish 7-9. Even during a couple playoff appearances under Gibbs, fans wanted Vinny gone. And, I think most fans still want Zorn gone. He's done one thing well: He hasn't "lost the team". They still play hard and I guess he deserves credit for that. Where I think fans are going to possibly reconsider is some of players.Here are the problems with this team:
I actually see my worst case sceanario shaping up:1. The Redskins show enough improvement that they keep Vinny next year.
If this happens..I am out. Have been a Redskins fan my entire life but at this point I have had it. I refuse to line the pockets of snyder anymore if he does not get rid of Vinny. I believe that what you predict will come true and that is sad. No offensive line improvement....signing big names with big egos and horrible play....wasting a first round draft pick on a QB....I am getting depressed just thinking about it.
This is exactly why they will address the OL. It's the issue du jour. They may not pick the right guys, but they'll address it. And, while they're doing that, they'll be completely blind to some other problem they need to address NOW rather than wait until that position actually falls apart next year.
I think Shanny would "work", as in the team would have a winning record under him and would be a playoff contender most seasons. I'm going to play devil's advocate, and let me start by saying that I want Vinny out. However, I'd point out that Vinny's draft strategy the last two drafts has been good. He has brought in talent that has both been at areas of need (not necessarily the highest needs, but still needs) and that has also been consistent with "best player available" draft status. Here's what I mean:
Washington / Boston RedskinsYear No. Round Pick Player Name Position College2009 1 1 13 13 Brian Orakpo LB Texas - a stud DE in the making, a relatively rare thing to find 2 3 16 80 Kevin Barnes DB Maryland - looks at least like a good nickel CB prospect 3 5 22 158 Cody Glenn LB Nebraska - jury's out 4 6 13 186 Robert Henson LB Texas Christian - jury's out 5 7 12 221 Eddie Williams TE Idaho - jury's out 6 7 34 243 Marko Mitchell WR Nevada - looks like a very promising prospect who was a 7th round steal2008 1 2 3 34 Devin Thomas WR Michigan State - finally rounding into form and looks like a play-maker 2 2 17 48 Fred Davis TE USC - finally given the opportunity to show he's a 1st class receiving TE 3 2 20 51 Malcolm Kelly WR Oklahoma - has looked good at times, but disappears; limited by injuries and lack of opportunities 4 3 33 96 Chad Rinehart G Northern Iowa - borderline bust, but suffered unfortunate injury right when became a starter 5 4 25 124 Justin Tryon DB Arizona State - is contributing as a dime CB and occasional PR 6 6 2 168 Durant Brooks P Georgia Tech - bust 7 6 14 180 Kareem Moore DB Nicholls State - is developing as a S 8 6 20 186 Colt Brennan QB Hawaii - I'm not a fan, but not a bad guy to take a stab at & stash on the bench for a few years 9 7 35 242 Rob Jackson DE Kansas State - resembles (in a good way) Chris Clemons 10 7 42 249 Christopher Horton DB UCLA - another 7th round steal who is a play-making FS type; needs more disciplineNot what I meant. Is he willing to work with Vinny or does he want Vinny out as a condition of him accepting the job?
Good stuff.I can't find it right now, but I remember reading recently on extremeskins that there's a belief that Vinny could be gone because he's been talking behind Dan's back about the Haynesworth contract. The rumor basically has Vinny bad-mouthing Dan to others in the organization and that's starting to get back to Dan.I agree with most of what you said and I'm a firm believer that Vinny's decisions need to be graded based on their own merit and not simply that they come from Vinny. I hate all the "Everything he does is bad" comments. He's done some good things. But, overall, he's unqualified for the job he's in...whatever that job is. If he's running the draft and leading the college scouting department, he might need someone above him saying a couple years ago, "Our OL is growing old. We really need to use some of our picks this year on OL. Don't reach for anyone who doesn't bring the proper value, but see what you can do. We'll also look into FA and trades to bring guys in."
As I said before, I think ARE is intentionally messing up. I won't say he intentionally fumbled yesterday, but I think he refuses to catch some punts he should catch and he intentionally makes little effort to pick up many yards. He wants to be benched as a PR. Now, I'm willing to buy something along the lines of what nittany laid out earlier. I don't think there's any way AT ALL that this is a coach's decision. But, if management and ARE want to continue to play this game, I'd bench him as a WR if I were the coach. If management wants to be childish, I'd make sure ARE is punished for responding with childish behavior. There is no way he should be rewarded with WR snaps.
Who knows? I'm sure that Shanny would need for some concession to be made enabling at least "input" into personnel matters, but the alternative coaching positions that figure to be open where he wouldn't get overall control such as Dallas. I don't know how much leverage he'd have there.
TBell, you sound like Vinny's agent.
Any way you slice it, Vinny is just bad for the organization. Whether he's actually making the picks or if he's a yes man....either way, he just needs to go. If he stays it means the circus stays in town for another year. Courting high priced free agents, alienating players, other players receiving seemingly preferential treatment, a complete ZOO of a search for a coaching staff and when that doesn't work you simply interject someone else into the equation. I don't care if it appears he may have stumbled his way into something here...that's what he does. Him being here means more mediocrity. More plug and play attempts at trying to string the team along and keeping us just good enough to where we don't suck. He needs to go.
What specifically do you take issue with and (most importantly) why?TBell, you sound like Vinny's agent.
Fact is, I don't think any of us have the complete picture of how things work in this organization. I don't think we have any idea who makes what decisions and who is in charge of different things. As fans, we like to assign blame but we really don't always know where to assign blame. In most organizations, you know who's responsible. Here, you don't. A lot of people seemed to think Gibbs had such power and responsibility. But, for example, there is no way I'll ever believe that Gibbs was behind the Brandon Lloyd trade. Which moves were his? Which were Vinny's? Which were Dan's? After Gibbs, which decisions were Vinny's and which were Dan's? What can Vinny really be blamed for and what can he really receive credit for?As I said, I think Vinny is totally unqualified for a GM type position. But, that doesn't mean he wouldn't be good at college scouting. Similarly, a guy can be a bad HC but still be a good OC. Different jobs require different skills. I don't care if Vinny is fired, moved, demoted, or stuffed in a closet somewhere just doing a radio show. I just don't want him making organizational decisions. I don't want him in any way deciding the direction of the team. That should be someone else. And, that someone else has to be able to handle Snyder. You can fire Vinny, but that doesn't necessarily move anything in the right direction if Snyder insists on acting the way he has. That doesn't mean Vinny should stay, either. Vinny has to be judged based on what Vinny has control over.
Just like buster, he takes issue with anyone saying anything that is even remotely positive about Vinny or Dan.What specifically do you take issue with and (most importantly) why?TBell, you sound like Vinny's agent.
I'd be curious to see pre-2008 draft history in that same format. Obviously you can't really evaluate 2009 yet, but honestly it doesn't look very impressive thus far considering that Orakpo was a no-brainer once he slipped to 13 and that Vinny whiffed on several more opportunities to draft OL depth. The big misstep in 2008 was obviously Malcolm Kelly, which was a wasted pick after Devin Thomas, whom we obviously preferred. And the major issue, of course, is not the guys he picked, but the guys he didn't pick. Sure it's nice to have that secondary depth, but I sure wish it was OL depth instead. The seventh-round finds are somewhat impressive, but that's really all that Vinny is good at, and it's really not all that impressive anyway considering how many decent NFL starters are pulled off the scrap heap every year. Also, as a Nationals fan, the schtick about finding hidden gems who turn into average contributors while ignoring huge, glaring team needs sounds very Jim Bowden-like.What specifically do you take issue with and (most importantly) why?TBell, you sound like Vinny's agent.
As I said before, I want Vinny out because regardless of whatever else he is or does, he's an enabler to the man who makes the football operations of this organization dysfunctional, and that's Dan Snyder. And if you think about it, what dgreen is saying is astounding. After a decade of Snyder's ownership, we devoted fans really don't have a sound idea as to how the organization works. We get glimpses, but just as often it's made up of conflicting or even changing information. That in and of itself is a sign of a bad organization, and that really does start at the top.
I'd say 1, 5, 6 and 7 are very likely.
I'm not disagreeing with you, but Vinny is definitely a symptom of the larger problem. As long as he's around, there is absolutely no question that the larger problem still exists. If he is gone, there's some level of hope.
Good point.
I think we're saying the same thing - Vinny's an enabler:
There's another strong argument for getting rid of Cerrato. For how many other players does the front office decide playing time, position, etc.? The reason we don't know is that our GM is not out in front, explaining these things to people. I had to laugh this morning. Theisman said he might just ask the coaching staff about why Randle El was still returning punts. As though nobody has done that yet. As though Zorn hasn't already had to squirm through a series of explanations to hide the fact that it is a management decision for which management doesn't want to be accountable. Theisman was talking like he might just be enough of a rebel to ask coaches about it. LOL. Czaban picked up on the punt return issue briefly this morning, and I'm sure he'll address it again in more depth this afternoon. But what he said made it sound eerily like he's been reading this thread. He knows it's a management decision. Imagine the Dolphins owner telling Parcels "This guy has to return punts, or give up part of his salary right now. And the coach has to pretend that it's his choice if the guy balks at a salary cut and keeps returning punts."dgreen said:
That's part of what I'm saying about him being an enabler for Snyder. Now, if Cerrato did that on his own (and like dgreen said we have no way of knowing for sure, which is ridiculous) then that's a whole different problem. Either way, though, I agree that the ARE situation is ridiculous to the extent that it's coming from the top.Frankly, the coaching staff should be saying "screw you" and playing who they want back there. I'd love for Zorn to say, "What are you going to do, fire me?"
Right. Not only do fans really want to know who to blame, they want to put all the blame in one place. But, a poor decision by X doesn't excuse a poor decision by Y. There's plenty of blame to go around on what's probably the single worst position decision in the NFL. If we want to bash Vinny for being a yes-man, we have to bash Zorn and Danny Smith for being yes-men in this situation. If I was a GM looking for a coach, I'd certainly have to think twice about a guy who continually puts someone out there who shouldn't be playing.
To do that the coaching staff has to be willing to be fired, and to therefore be unavailable to help the players for the rest of the year. I can't really see any of them doing that, unless they're 100% certain they won't be here next year and it's the last game of the season. I don't see the coaches bailing on their jobs to say F U.
Yeah, but who are Jim Zorn and Danny Smith in the grand scheme of things. Who knows what kind of voodoo they have in their contracts with a no sass clause or something. I suspect that's why Gregg Williams isn't our coach right now, he wouldn't relent to any of their nonsense.
I refuse to believe upper management is making the punt return call. It goes against everything they've done in the past. From telling Coles he can watch the games on a new flat screen to not using Archuletta at all. Dan has always been ok paying money for his mistakes. On top of that, the staff has to realize that no matter what they are being told to do ad far as playing time it will go in history as a reflection of them . It is their jobs to play the guys that will make them look good. That will ultimately get them another job or not. Imagine Zorn at his next interview:"I knew having El as a punt returner hurt our chances of winning, but they told me to play him or I'd be fired.""Didn't you get fired for not winning? Why wouldn't you do what ever you had to to win? Don't call us. We'll call you."And if Largent was right and they brought in Lewis to force Zorn to resign what would stop Zorn from making his own call on the punt returner? None of that makes any sense. It can't be both.
