*** Official 2013 San Diego Chargers **** (2 Viewers)

[Tau837]

Rivers' contract is set to expire after the 2015 season. If the team felt there was a strong reason to move on from him at that time or sooner AND if the team feels that Sorensen cannot be groomed into his replacement, then it makes sense to draft a rookie QB. But:

1. I don't see any reason for the team to have that stance.

2. If they did have that stance, they should use a first or second round pick to increase the odds that they actually get someone who can capably step in for Rivers after he is gone.

1. But if he's only under contract for 2 more years than you can agree all this talk about him playing 5+ years is kind of moot, no? Sure they could franchise him a year(assuming he's 2013 moving forward and not 2012/2011) for but other than it would just be about contract negotiations.

2. I have a feeling if you looked at all the QB's taken round 2 or later you're going to a whole lot of misses as well. There are only 32 starting gigs in the NFL. Heck, if you look at QB's taken outside the top 10 in the first round you'll see a pretty low "hit" percentage. People are quick to forget that Weeden was taken 22nd overall, Gabbert at 10th overall, Ponder 12 overall, Tebow 25th overall, Sanchez 5th overall, and Freeman 17th overall. Maybe you should never draft a QB unless you have the 1st pick overall?

I'd much rather have a sure starter in the 1st/2nd rounds at other positions, one of the guys listed above for pennies on the dollar as one backup, and a Matt Barkley type that plummets in the draft than either draft a QB in the 1st or have Whitehurst/Sorensen as my backups in the event Rivers went down. I disagree with some in the thread in that I am not a believer in taking a QB all the way down in the 6th/7th round. IMO those picks are best used on very talented guys that fell due to injury/character/motivation issues like a Burfict/Blount type of guy. If you have to part with him it didn't really cost you much of anything anyway.

1. I disagree. They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

2. Thanks. You just perfectly illustrated why your stance that it wasn't worth keeping Rivers at his salary has been wrong all along. Rivers is a top 10 NFL QB, and there is every reason to believe he will continue to be a top half of the NFL QB for years to come. It is very hard to find that, whether through the draft or through free agency. But the Chargers already have it. So there is no need right now to go looking for it in the draft.

 

[Tau837]

Rivers' contract is set to expire after the 2015 season. If the team felt there was a strong reason to move on from him at that time or sooner AND if the team feels that Sorensen cannot be groomed into his replacement, then it makes sense to draft a rookie QB. But:

1. I don't see any reason for the team to have that stance.

2. If they did have that stance, they should use a first or second round pick to increase the odds that they actually get someone who can capably step in for Rivers after he is gone.

1. But if he's only under contract for 2 more years than you can agree all this talk about him playing 5+ years is kind of moot, no? Sure they could franchise him a year(assuming he's 2013 moving forward and not 2012/2011) for but other than it would just be about contract negotiations.

2. I have a feeling if you looked at all the QB's taken round 2 or later you're going to a whole lot of misses as well. There are only 32 starting gigs in the NFL. Heck, if you look at QB's taken outside the top 10 in the first round you'll see a pretty low "hit" percentage. People are quick to forget that Weeden was taken 22nd overall, Gabbert at 10th overall, Ponder 12 overall, Tebow 25th overall, Sanchez 5th overall, and Freeman 17th overall. Maybe you should never draft a QB unless you have the 1st pick overall?

I'd much rather have a sure starter in the 1st/2nd rounds at other positions, one of the guys listed above for pennies on the dollar as one backup, and a Matt Barkley type that plummets in the draft than either draft a QB in the 1st or have Whitehurst/Sorensen as my backups in the even Rivers went down. I disagree with some in the thread in that I am not a believer in taking a QB all the way down in the 6th/7th round. IMO those picks are best used on very talented guys that fell due to injury/character/motivation issues like a Burfict/Blount type of guy. If you have to part with him it didn't really cost you much of anything anyway.

As for #1, his contract length matters very little IMO because I would be shocked if he doesn't retire a Charger if he continues to play like he did this year.

 

[BoltBacker]

2. Thanks. You just perfectly illustrated why your stance that it wasn't worth keeping Rivers at his salary has been wrong all along. Rivers is a top 10 NFL QB, and there is every reason to believe he will continue to be a top half of the NFL QB for years to come. It is very hard to find that, whether through the draft or through free agency. But the Chargers already have it. So there is no need right now to go looking for it in the draft.

I think he earned franchise QB $ based on his play this season. If he continues to lead SD to the playoffs then he deserves to be payed like a franchise QB. In '13 he had 32TD/13TO. In '12 he had 26TD/22TO. In '11 he had 27TD/25TO. In '12 and '11 I defended Rivers because his OL was utter trash, but to pretend that this past season was just "par" for Rivers or that it's reasonable to expect 5+ years of this level of performance seems unlikely to me. He had a great season. One of his best. But it hasn't been that long since he had a few of his worst.

IMO the "top half" of NFL QB's do not deserve ~$16mil/season... full stop.

I'm all for players being payed based on their performance, if that means I've been "wrong all along" then I'll gladly admit to that.

 

[Tau837]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer. Say they sign him to a 5 year extension, but they give themselves an easy out after the year 2/3 of the extension. In the short term, doing this should enable them to reduce his cap hit by converting salary to signing bonus and amortizing it. That frees up money to more quickly elevate the talent around Rivers.

Also, this would probably earn the team a discount compared to waiting another year or especially two years, since the market will likely continue to climb.

Meanwhile, Rivers is a family man with 7 kids IIRC. He has been settled in San Diego for 10 years, and I seriously doubt he wants to play anywhere else. .This would give him the long term security he probably wants, to know he can finish his career with the Chargers. And he would be just as motivated as the team to help build up the talent on the roster quickly.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

As I said before, I wouldn't be drafting a successor to Rivers. I'd be drafting a successor to Whitehurst. I'm on a tablet now, so I'm not going to cut and paste from your list, but it looks to me like maybe a third of the players on the list are as good or better than Whitehurst. That seems like a perfectly decent hit rate.

OK, perhaps it's time to agree to disagree. But one last question: you think one third of those players (or their 2014 draft equivalent) were better than Whitehurst in their rookie season? So you'd be comfortable with one third of the equivalents as the #2 QB in 2014?

I like Sorensen and think he would probably be an okay backup. So I'd be comfortable with anyone who beats him out for the #2 job, if that's what happens.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer.

Yeah, it's a no-brainer.

 

[tommyGunZ]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer. Say they sign him to a 5 year extension, but they give themselves an easy out after the year 2/3 of the extension. In the short term, doing this should enable them to reduce his cap hit by converting salary to signing bonus and amortizing it. That frees up money to more quickly elevate the talent around Rivers.

Also, this would probably earn the team a discount compared to waiting another year or especially two years, since the market will likely continue to climb.

Meanwhile, Rivers is a family man with 7 kids IIRC. He has been settled in San Diego for 10 years, and I seriously doubt he wants to play anywhere else. .This would give him the long term security he probably wants, to know he can finish his career with the Chargers. And he would be just as motivated as the team to help build up the talent on the roster quickly.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?

In a world in which Jay Cutler gets $50+M guaranteed, locking up a guy like Rivers who is both an elite talent on the field and probably one of the best 3-5 team leaders in all of football is indeed a no brainer. Barring serious injury, he should never wear another uni and will go down as the greatest Charger ever.

 

[BoltBacker]

In the first game against CIN they really targeted Richard Marshall any time they saw him isolated on a player. I would love to see SD disguise some coverages to give Marshall help when he looks like he's in a 1-on-1 matchup. I'm a Dalton fan but I do think he can fall victim of being a little predictable. To win vs CIN the Chargers really need to generate TO's.

Ughhh, looks like they are still targeting Marshall. I don't know if SD can leave him out on an island without help.

 

[Danish Bengal]

Congrats guys and good luck next week.

Yes, we all knew that Rivers > Dalton. But today Rivers >>>> Dalton. But the really decisive difference today was IMO the lines. You guys manhandled our OL and I think we only got to Rivers once - on the very first drive

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

definitely over achieving this season, didn't think our boys had a chance in heck in Cincy

What the hell now, why not us? I keep waiting for that Defense to suck and get lit up

 

[BoltBacker]

Congrats guys and good luck next week.

Yes, we all knew that Rivers > Dalton. But today Rivers >>>> Dalton. But the really decisive difference today was IMO the lines. You guys manhandled our OL and I think we only got to Rivers once - on the very first drive

Classy. The two AFC opponents I have a hard time rooting against are CIN and KC. I hope the Bengals don't over-react to this loss because they have the makings of an excellent team. It's tough for any team to overcome the loss of a franchise type player like Atkins. Like you said the game was won in the trenches and that battle could have easily been completely different if Atkins had been playing. Dalton will get all the blame but people won't mention that he took a lot of big hits in the first half even if he didn't get sacked and he was running for his life for the entire third quarter. Bernard(a very good player) just had a poor game and the running game didn't help him much. For that matter I didn't think receivers created much separation apart from that deep ball to Green late in the game.

Ingram will likely be the MVP of the game for SD but I think Shareece Wright should get consideration as well. I've been highly critical of him all season long but he picked a good week to have the best performance of his career.

 

[Danish Bengal]

Thanks. At least I have had Ladarius stashed in both my dynasties for a year and half. I am ready to cash in next season.

Of course we missed Atkins, but he has be out half the season and our DL has been fine until today. I don't know WTF happended but something else was wrong. Kudos to your OL

 

[Uruk-Hai]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer. Say they sign him to a 5 year extension, but they give themselves an easy out after the year 2/3 of the extension. In the short term, doing this should enable them to reduce his cap hit by converting salary to signing bonus and amortizing it. That frees up money to more quickly elevate the talent around Rivers.

Also, this would probably earn the team a discount compared to waiting another year or especially two years, since the market will likely continue to climb.

Meanwhile, Rivers is a family man with 7 kids IIRC. He has been settled in San Diego for 10 years, and I seriously doubt he wants to play anywhere else. .This would give him the long term security he probably wants, to know he can finish his career with the Chargers. And he would be just as motivated as the team to help build up the talent on the roster quickly.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?

In a world in which Jay Cutler gets $50+M guaranteed, locking up a guy like Rivers who is both an elite talent on the field and probably one of the best 3-5 team leaders in all of football is indeed a no brainer. Barring serious injury, he should never wear another uni and will go down as the greatest Charger ever.

Good Lord, no. I like Rivers but Fouts, Seau, Alworth, and Winslow (just off the top of my head) were all better players than Rivers

 

[Riversco]

Good luck Bengals next year - as long as you don't face the Chargers again.

That was about as perfect as things could possibly go for the Chargers. You know everything is breaking your way this season when Ronnie Brown has a 58 yard touchdown run.

Its been a very odd week, where I have not seen ANY discussion about how the Chargers have morphed into this physical team that punches you in the mouth with a dominant run game. I was listening to Shannon Sharpe at halftime even complain that the Chargers can't get it done with Rivers throwing only a handful of passes. I don't think he has seen what their run pass ratio has been over the past month.

Mathews has had a busted ankle for a while. No-one even talked about that once he left the game.

It feels like the national media is just ignoring the Chargers, which explains how they were 7 point underdogs and destroy the Bengals by 17. This is a very dangerous team right now playing their best football with an enormous chip on their shoulder.

Up next is basically the Chargers Super Bowl. This is the first time EVER the Chargers and Broncos will meet in the playoffs. Team Bowlen vs Team Spanos. Outside of hoisting the Lombardi, NOTHING would make the Chargers organization happier than to end the top-seeded broncos dreams of a Super Bowl next weekend in Denver and be the last team standing in the AFC West.

This whole franchise will be UP for this. I like the Chargers to win. Even if they don't - next season looks very bright.

 

[Riversco]

Since the Chargers beat the Broncos in Denver, the Chargers have gotten a lot healthier, altho D.J. Fluker was in a boot after today's victory over the Bengals. The Broncos lost pass rusher Von Miller for the year. For a defense that already had massive problems stopping the Chargers attack, the loss of Miller gives me a lot of confidence the Chargers will once again control the line of scrimmage and just shove the Broncos defense around all day. They probably won't get much pressure on Rivers either.

 

[Gr00vus]

Defense looked very different with Ingram and Johnson out there. Adai has been a helper too. Obviously the key to the game were the turnovers. apart from a couple of really bad play calls, it was a great coaching job by McCoy today.

Should be interesting next week to see if Manning can get the Charger monkey off his back.

They're playing with house money now, anything they win from here is gravy. It's like the opposite of how things were under Norv. What a great season it's been.

 

[Riversco]

I haven't heard anything about Ryan Mathews injury. I expect it'll be just like last week. Maybe he is held out of practice for most of the week and then plays. He's the type of guy who plays through pain so if he's borderline I expect him to go.

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer. Say they sign him to a 5 year extension, but they give themselves an easy out after the year 2/3 of the extension. In the short term, doing this should enable them to reduce his cap hit by converting salary to signing bonus and amortizing it. That frees up money to more quickly elevate the talent around Rivers.

Also, this would probably earn the team a discount compared to waiting another year or especially two years, since the market will likely continue to climb.

Meanwhile, Rivers is a family man with 7 kids IIRC. He has been settled in San Diego for 10 years, and I seriously doubt he wants to play anywhere else. .This would give him the long term security he probably wants, to know he can finish his career with the Chargers. And he would be just as motivated as the team to help build up the talent on the roster quickly.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?

In a world in which Jay Cutler gets $50+M guaranteed, locking up a guy like Rivers who is both an elite talent on the field and probably one of the best 3-5 team leaders in all of football is indeed a no brainer. Barring serious injury, he should never wear another uni and will go down as the greatest Charger ever.

Good Lord, no. I like Rivers but Fouts, Seau, Alworth, and Winslow (just off the top of my head) were all better players than Rivers

tommy is about 26 imi guessing, probably don't remember anyone outside of the LT/Rivers era

 

[tommyGunZ]

They could (and perhaps should) extend him this offseason. I truly believe that Rivers will play well enough to be a quality starter for 5+ more seasons. And I truly believe the combination of his performance, character, and standing for the franchise within the community plus the dearth of quality QB options mean the Chargers should and will keep him as long as he can play at a quality level.

Thinking more about this, I think this is a nobrainer. Say they sign him to a 5 year extension, but they give themselves an easy out after the year 2/3 of the extension. In the short term, doing this should enable them to reduce his cap hit by converting salary to signing bonus and amortizing it. That frees up money to more quickly elevate the talent around Rivers.

Also, this would probably earn the team a discount compared to waiting another year or especially two years, since the market will likely continue to climb.

Meanwhile, Rivers is a family man with 7 kids IIRC. He has been settled in San Diego for 10 years, and I seriously doubt he wants to play anywhere else. .This would give him the long term security he probably wants, to know he can finish his career with the Chargers. And he would be just as motivated as the team to help build up the talent on the roster quickly.

Does anyone else think this would be a good idea?

In a world in which Jay Cutler gets $50+M guaranteed, locking up a guy like Rivers who is both an elite talent on the field and probably one of the best 3-5 team leaders in all of football is indeed a no brainer. Barring serious injury, he should never wear another uni and will go down as the greatest Charger ever.

Good Lord, no. I like Rivers but Fouts, Seau, Alworth, and Winslow (just off the top of my head) were all better players than Rivers

tommy is about 26 imi guessing, probably don't remember anyone outside of the LT/Rivers era

Wish I was 26. I'm 39, though in full disclosure only became a Charger fan in 2002 when I moved to San Diego. But the numbers support my argument. Rivers is better than Fouts, it really isn't even close.

 

[Riversco]

The Chargers slid from #22 to #25 in the draft with today's win, with the Bengals, Chiefs, and Eagles all ahead of them now. The Bengals and Eagles both might go CB.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

Congrads on a great game Chargers fans, you did what you had to do, only 16 pass attempts by Rivers and able to win by 17 on the road in Cinci. Peyton Manning can always choke a game away, we could be talking SD@NE in the AFCC…I feel like we might have seen that game a couple times before.

I've been hating on the Bolts the last 2 weeks so props out.

 

[Riversco]

Thanks MoP!

Fun stat for this week: Phillip Rivers is 6-2 lifetime playing @ Denver.

 

[Pump N Go]

Fins fan here but always been a Rivers guy, pulling for a Chargers super bowl run. Good luck the rest of the way.

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

Early line: Chargers are ten-point underdogs at Denver.

 

[Riversco]

Early line: Chargers are ten-point underdogs at Denver.

I guess there is respect there in a way. Normally a 9-7 team playing in Denver would be closer to 20 point underdogs.

 

[tommyGunZ]

10-7 Riversco

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

The Chargers were ten-point underdogs the last time they beat the Broncos as well.

 

[Nick Vermeil]

I will eat my shoe if they beat the Broncos again. I mean what the hell, I have one shoe left after they made the playoffs in the first place.

The o-line looked great today. Very impressive with Hardwick on the bench.

 

[tommyGunZ]

Chargers Oline was really banged up for that first Denver game. Line is now healthy (assuming Dj is ok) and Melvin Ingram is now back. On the other hand Clady and Von Miller are now gone for the Broncos.

10 is too much. Denver definitely deserves to be favored, but you can make the argument that San Diego is the better team all around right now. Line should be 5 or 6.

 

[BoltBacker]

But the numbers support my argument. Rivers is better than Fouts, it really isn't even close.

I think you are right, but by a smaller margin than you are saying.

You are right because when all is said and done Fouts was a ~.500 QB that never won the big one. Rivers is 30 games over .500 already and he's still playing.

But I don't think you can compare their passing numbers out of context. For instance in '81 when Fouts threw for 4802 yards. Sounds impressive.... until you consider the #2 QB in the NFL(Tommy Kramer) threw for 3912 yards. He wouldn't even break the top 10 this year. HOF Joe Montana started all 16 games and threw for 223 yards/game... barely breaking the top 25 in 2013. Just behind Jason Cambell and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Barely squeaking ahead of Matt McGloin.

I honestly think that Coryell/Fouts would have had a 6000 yard season in the modern era where the league has moved toward defenders not being allowed to touch receivers down field and even after they have the ball there are so many rules regarding how they are allowed to tackle a receiver. If Fouts had the protection of modern day QB's he probably would have played longer as well. It's just a different game.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So fellow 6-seeds, how you guys feelin'?

Going into big bad Denver and the "invincible" Manning, must seem awful tough.

{Go get `em!!!!!}

 

[DanFouts]

Tough game to call....Chargers O line and D line look as good as they have all year. Ingram...wow! Butler....wow!

And that D front 7 play has made secondary look at least average (as opposed to putrid). I still get heart palpitations every time someone throws deep...that 4th quarter pass to AJ Green double covered would have changed the game.

But key to winning will be the offense...(and related to each other)

1. Can they change their pitiful red zone ways....

2. Will they let Rivers loose. Seems like lots of conservative play calling as if they fears Rivers will throw pick six, fumble, etc at critical stage.

 

[Gr00vus]

Tough game to call....Chargers O line and D line look as good as they have all year. Ingram...wow! Butler....wow!

And that D front 7 play has made secondary look at least average (as opposed to putrid). I still get heart palpitations every time someone throws deep...that 4th quarter pass to AJ Green double covered would have changed the game.

But key to winning will be the offense...(and related to each other)

1. Can they change their pitiful red zone ways....

2. Will they let Rivers loose. Seems like lots of conservative play calling as if they fears Rivers will throw pick six, fumble, etc at critical stage.

I think one of the reasons they've gone on this winning streak is the prevalence of the run game. I don't think that will change unless Matthews can't go - maybe not even then. The best way to beat Manning is to keep him off the field. Maybe the Broncos make big adjustments on D to keep what happened last game from happening again, and then they'll let Rivers exploit that. But I think they'll come out with the same approach that won them the last Broncos game and had them close in the previous one.

As you identified in point 1, the big key will be scoring TDs when they get in the red zone and not FGs. If they're settling for lots of FGAs they'll lose. Yesterday didn't give me a ton of encouragement in that regard.

 

[Tau837]

But the numbers support my argument. Rivers is better than Fouts, it really isn't even close.

I think you are right, but by a smaller margin than you are saying.

You are right because when all is said and done Fouts was a ~.500 QB that never won the big one. Rivers is 30 games over .500 already and he's still playing.

But I don't think you can compare their passing numbers out of context. For instance in '81 when Fouts threw for 4802 yards. Sounds impressive.... until you consider the #2 QB in the NFL(Tommy Kramer) threw for 3912 yards. He wouldn't even break the top 10 this year. HOF Joe Montana started all 16 games and threw for 223 yards/game... barely breaking the top 25 in 2013. Just behind Jason Cambell and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Barely squeaking ahead of Matt McGloin.

I honestly think that Coryell/Fouts would have had a 6000 yard season in the modern era where the league has moved toward defenders not being allowed to touch receivers down field and even after they have the ball there are so many rules regarding how they are allowed to tackle a receiver. If Fouts had the protection of modern day QB's he probably would have played longer as well. It's just a different game.

I'm the biggest Rivers fan around here. But I don't think it's justifiable to rank him above Fouts at this point.

First off, Fouts is a HOFer. At this time, Rivers is a long shot to make the HOF.

Also, Fouts stood out from his peers to a greater degree. Consider:

1. Fouts was 1st team All Pro 2 times and 2nd team All Pro 2 times. Rivers has never been 1st or 2nd team All Pro.

2. Fouts was also OPOY in 1982 and won a couple MVP awards (though not the AP award) that year. Rivers has not won any comparable awards.

3. Fouts led the league in passing yards 4 times, passing yards per game 6 times, and passing TDs 2 times. Rivers has been among the league leaders in many categories but not so frequently at the top of major categories. No doubt to some degree there is a difference there in volume of attempts, but it's still a positive for Fouts.

4. The Chargers' offense was #1 in yards 5 times under Fouts and #1 in points 3 times, compared to once each under Rivers.

Rivers definitely has a much better record as a starter, but to what degree does that have to do with playing in a weaker division than Fouts and/or having a better defense? I'm not sure, but I suspect that was part of it.

Now consider that Fouts did all that in an era where the rules were much less in favor of the offense than they are today. QBs were not protected in the same way, and defenders could play very physical with receivers.

I think Rivers could surpass Fouts before his career is over, but he's not there yet IMO.

 

[BoltNlava]

But the numbers support my argument. Rivers is better than Fouts, it really isn't even close.

I think you are right, but by a smaller margin than you are saying.

You are right because when all is said and done Fouts was a ~.500 QB that never won the big one. Rivers is 30 games over .500 already and he's still playing.

But I don't think you can compare their passing numbers out of context. For instance in '81 when Fouts threw for 4802 yards. Sounds impressive.... until you consider the #2 QB in the NFL(Tommy Kramer) threw for 3912 yards. He wouldn't even break the top 10 this year. HOF Joe Montana started all 16 games and threw for 223 yards/game... barely breaking the top 25 in 2013. Just behind Jason Cambell and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Barely squeaking ahead of Matt McGloin.

I honestly think that Coryell/Fouts would have had a 6000 yard season in the modern era where the league has moved toward defenders not being allowed to touch receivers down field and even after they have the ball there are so many rules regarding how they are allowed to tackle a receiver. If Fouts had the protection of modern day QB's he probably would have played longer as well. It's just a different game.

I'm the biggest Rivers fan around here. But I don't think it's justifiable to rank him above Fouts at this point.

First off, Fouts is a HOFer. At this time, Rivers is a long shot to make the HOF.

Also, Fouts stood out from his peers to a greater degree. Consider:

1. Fouts was 1st team All Pro 2 times and 2nd team All Pro 2 times. Rivers has never been 1st or 2nd team All Pro.

2. Fouts was also OPOY in 1982 and won a couple MVP awards (though not the AP award) that year. Rivers has not won any comparable awards.

3. Fouts led the league in passing yards 4 times, passing yards per game 6 times, and passing TDs 2 times. Rivers has been among the league leaders in many categories but not so frequently at the top of major categories. No doubt to some degree there is a difference there in volume of attempts, but it's still a positive for Fouts.

4. The Chargers' offense was #1 in yards 5 times under Fouts and #1 in points 3 times, compared to once each under Rivers.

Rivers definitely has a much better record as a starter, but to what degree does that have to do with playing in a weaker division than Fouts and/or having a better defense? I'm not sure, but I suspect that was part of it.

Now consider that Fouts did all that in an era where the rules were much less in favor of the offense than they are today. QBs were not protected in the same way, and defenders could play very physical with receivers.

I think Rivers could surpass Fouts before his career is over, but he's not there yet IMO.

Uh, yeah this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[tommyGunZ]

But the numbers support my argument. Rivers is better than Fouts, it really isn't even close.

I think you are right, but by a smaller margin than you are saying.

You are right because when all is said and done Fouts was a ~.500 QB that never won the big one. Rivers is 30 games over .500 already and he's still playing.

But I don't think you can compare their passing numbers out of context. For instance in '81 when Fouts threw for 4802 yards. Sounds impressive.... until you consider the #2 QB in the NFL(Tommy Kramer) threw for 3912 yards. He wouldn't even break the top 10 this year. HOF Joe Montana started all 16 games and threw for 223 yards/game... barely breaking the top 25 in 2013. Just behind Jason Cambell and Ryan Fitzpatrick. Barely squeaking ahead of Matt McGloin.

I honestly think that Coryell/Fouts would have had a 6000 yard season in the modern era where the league has moved toward defenders not being allowed to touch receivers down field and even after they have the ball there are so many rules regarding how they are allowed to tackle a receiver. If Fouts had the protection of modern day QB's he probably would have played longer as well. It's just a different game.

I'm the biggest Rivers fan around here. But I don't think it's justifiable to rank him above Fouts at this point.

First off, Fouts is a HOFer. At this time, Rivers is a long shot to make the HOF.

Also, Fouts stood out from his peers to a greater degree. Consider:

1. Fouts was 1st team All Pro 2 times and 2nd team All Pro 2 times. Rivers has never been 1st or 2nd team All Pro.

2. Fouts was also OPOY in 1982 and won a couple MVP awards (though not the AP award) that year. Rivers has not won any comparable awards.

3. Fouts led the league in passing yards 4 times, passing yards per game 6 times, and passing TDs 2 times. Rivers has been among the league leaders in many categories but not so frequently at the top of major categories. No doubt to some degree there is a difference there in volume of attempts, but it's still a positive for Fouts.

4. The Chargers' offense was #1 in yards 5 times under Fouts and #1 in points 3 times, compared to once each under Rivers.

Rivers definitely has a much better record as a starter, but to what degree does that have to do with playing in a weaker division than Fouts and/or having a better defense? I'm not sure, but I suspect that was part of it.

Now consider that Fouts did all that in an era where the rules were much less in favor of the offense than they are today. QBs were not protected in the same way, and defenders could play very physical with receivers.

I think Rivers could surpass Fouts before his career is over, but he's not there yet IMO.

Rivers has a higher career Y/A, while maintaining an INT% almost half of Fouts. Rivers career completion % is 64.4%, Fouts is 58.8%.

This ignores Rivers' edges in durability, winning %, and all of the counting stats (Rivers will obliterate all of Fouts records assuming he stays health the next 3-4 years).

I also think it's interesting that many Bolt fans were ready to ship Rivers out of town after his seasons with 20 and 15 INTS in 2011 and 2012. Fouts threw at least 15 INTs 9 times, and had 20+ INTs 5 times.

 

[BoltNlava]

Rivers is NOW...I get that.... but to compare to Fouts...In this day and age is beyond silly imho......

 

[Gr00vus]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

 

[BoltNlava]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Fouts would have thrown for 3 yards there..hmmmmm...I agree...lol

 

[tommyGunZ]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Hard for me to criticize the play calling yesterday considering the results. Easy to 2nd guess the McClain call, but perhaps the Chargers had seen something in the film or earlier in the game that suggested Cincy's LBs were ignoring the FB on dives and thus thought McClain could get 6 inches?

 

[bicycle_seat_sniffer]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Hard for me to criticize the play calling yesterday considering the results. Easy to 2nd guess the McClain call, but perhaps the Chargers had seen something in the film or earlier in the game that suggested Cincy's LBs were ignoring the FB on dives and thus thought McClain could get 6 inches?

good results <> good play calling, their goalline calls are still baffleing

 

[BoltBacker]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Hard for me to criticize the play calling yesterday considering the results. Easy to 2nd guess the McClain call, but perhaps the Chargers had seen something in the film or earlier in the game that suggested Cincy's LBs were ignoring the FB on dives and thus thought McClain could get 6 inches?

I agree with 'gunz. Unlike Simms, I think having a fresh back in that situation would be a benefit. SD doesn't really have another between the tackle runner in that situation. I disagree with those saying Rivers should dive for the first in that situation. Rivers is a great QB but he moves like an ice-burgh. He may have good size but he doesn't use his frame to generate power like some QB's near the LOS and more importantly has no quickness imo. Both Whitehurst and Sorensen are so bad I would hate to see them on the field for even a short stretch if Rivers got his bell rung all for a first down.

I'm not as critical as most on the McClain call but based on the way the CIN defense lined up I probably would have rather seen a play-action pass to one of the TE's. In the end McCoy was right being conservative so often. He coached like he was confident if he didn't force the action and make the big mistake he could put enough pressure on the opponent to make the big mistake(s).... and he was right.

 

[BoltNlava]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Hard for me to criticize the play calling yesterday considering the results. Easy to 2nd guess the McClain call, but perhaps the Chargers had seen something in the film or earlier in the game that suggested Cincy's LBs were ignoring the FB on dives and thus thought McClain could get 6 inches?

I agree with 'gunz. Unlike Simms, I think having a fresh back in that situation would be a benefit. SD doesn't really have another between the tackle runner in that situation. I disagree with those saying Rivers should dive for the first in that situation. Rivers is a great QB but he moves like an ice-burgh. He may have good size but he doesn't use his frame to generate power like some QB's near the LOS and more importantly has no quickness imo. Both Whitehurst and Sorensen are so bad I would hate to see them on the field for even a short stretch if Rivers got his bell rung all for a first down.

I'm not as critical as most on the McClain call but based on the way the CIN defense lined up I probably would have rather seen a play-action pass to one of the TE's. In the end McCoy was right being conservative so often. He coached like he was confident if he didn't force the action and make the big mistake he could put enough pressure on the opponent to make the big mistake(s).... and he was right.

Agree...I say rivers moves like a refrigerator on wheels all the time .

 

[BoltBacker]

good results <> good play calling, their goalline calls are still baffleing

The baffling part to me is how Green hasn't been a focal point of red zone sets all season. Rivers has always loved throwing to big receivers in the endzone and Green is considered one of the lower options so it would seem to me he'd be covered by guys that just can't match up physically with him.

 

[BoltNlava]

good results <> good play calling, their goalline calls are still baffleing

The baffling part to me is how Green hasn't been a focal point of red zone sets all season. Rivers has always loved throwing to big receivers in the endzone and Green is considered one of the lower options so it would seem to me he'd be covered by guys that just can't match up physically with him.

How about earlier in the year??? I tabbed Green in a late round as a sneaky play thinking he and Gates would light it up....Green is a beast waiting to happen.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Can't we have the Rivers/Fouts argument in the offseason? It's not like there's nothing else to talk about here. Take the idiotic 3rd and inches call to run McClain for instance...

Hard for me to criticize the play calling yesterday considering the results. Easy to 2nd guess the McClain call, but perhaps the Chargers had seen something in the film or earlier in the game that suggested Cincy's LBs were ignoring the FB on dives and thus thought McClain could get 6 inches?

Collinsworth was way too critical on that play. McClain's a very good runner, he just didn't get it.

 

[cstu]

A couple injuries and this team is looking at a top 5 pick. I think we're in for a rough season.

One injury in particular and it will be a top 2 pick imo, and the bodyguard for that guy is Dunlap who was the "anchor" of the 2nd worst OL in the league last season.

Honestly, I think they've put Rivers in a situation where there is no possible way any QB could look like he is earning his ~$14mil/season over the next two years so they won't be criticized when they spend just over a million to jettison Rivers and draft their own guy in '14.

Over/Under on the week we start speculating what QB should be targeted with that pick?

If the team isn't at least 2-2 after week 4 (Texans, Eagles, Titans, Cowboys) then I'll be talking about Bridgewater. The division outside of Denver isn't tough but I also don't expect better than 3-3. Outside of the Jaguars, I don't see a team the Chargers will be favored against.

What a crazy season. They actually did go 2-2 to start the season and 4-2 in the division.

In hindsight, the late comeback win against the Chiefs week 12 gave them a huge amount of momentum and they won 5 of 6 down the stretch (including all four of their division wins).

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

I disagree with those saying Rivers should dive for the first in that situation. Rivers is a great QB but he moves like an ice-burgh. He may have good size but he doesn't use his frame to generate power like some QB's near the LOS and more importantly has no quickness imo.

With one yard to go for a first down, Rivers has converted on 24 of his 29 career rush attempts.

His 82.76% conversion rate almost exactly matches the NFL average of 82.92% for QBs over the last 12 years.

The league average for RBs over the last 12 years is 69.44%, which suggests that teams really should run more QB sneaks and fewer RB dives on third- or fourth-and-one.

 

[Gr00vus]

I disagree with those saying Rivers should dive for the first in that situation. Rivers is a great QB but he moves like an ice-burgh. He may have good size but he doesn't use his frame to generate power like some QB's near the LOS and more importantly has no quickness imo.

With one yard to go for a first down, Rivers has converted on 24 of his 29 career rush attempts.

His 82.76% conversion rate almost exactly matches the NFL average of 82.92% for QBs over the last 12 years.

The league average for RBs over the last 12 years is 69.44%, which suggests that teams really should run more QB sneaks and fewer RB dives on third- or fourth-and-one.

Also I can't remember the last time a QB got hurt running a sneak. Sneak was the call. Maybe it was because Hardwick was out?

Moving on - how do we feel about the bolo ties?

 

[Tau837]

I disagree with those saying Rivers should dive for the first in that situation. Rivers is a great QB but he moves like an ice-burgh. He may have good size but he doesn't use his frame to generate power like some QB's near the LOS and more importantly has no quickness imo.

With one yard to go for a first down, Rivers has converted on 24 of his 29 career rush attempts.

His 82.76% conversion rate almost exactly matches the NFL average of 82.92% for QBs over the last 12 years.

The league average for RBs over the last 12 years is 69.44%, which suggests that teams really should run more QB sneaks and fewer RB dives on third- or fourth-and-one.