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Official 2016 GOP thread: Is it really going to be Donald Trump?? (2 Viewers)

timschochet said:
What exactly does this mean to you? I'm trying as hard as I can to be objective here, since I dislike him so much, but to me it was the same speech he gives at every rally: "This is a movement, I'm winning everywhere, I'm the only one that can beat Hillary, Marco is a loser, Lying Ted is a loser, Hillary shouldn't be allowed to run, I'm going to make America great again."

I mean it's really repetitive isn't it? 
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I don't really think that.  I don't hate Trump but I don't love him either.  I just like Hilary far less. I think she's a horrible human being.   I've lost faith in the system,  as many others have.  

 I usually just give you a lot of #### because you're a good sport about it.   

 
timschochet said:
The death of Nancy Reagan this morning will hopefully highlight what the Republican Party used to be about and what it's about now. I don't know what Nancy thought about Donald Trump, but I suspect she was horrified. I'm certain her husband would have been. 
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Nancy was so horrified she invited Trump to the Reagan Library. I guess she was doing some therapy to face her fear right? 

The HORROR!

 
SameSongNDance said:
I don't understand this straw man. Did I say somewhere that they were exactly equivalent? Reading comprehension is key.
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Yeah sure Trump is not exactly like Hitler. But they both had huge political rallys, it is only a matter of time until he institutes his universal health care upgrade, legalizes marijuana and gasses millions of Jews. 

 
Loan Sharks said:
Yeah sure Trump is not exactly like Hitler. But they both had huge political rallys, it is only a matter of time until he institutes his universal health care upgrade, legalizes marijuana and gasses millions of Jews.
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Another straw man..

flapgreen said:
I totally get why some people can't stand Trump. Thinking he's similar to Hitler is another story.
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You don't see the parallels at all? They are completely dissimilar? 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The message Louis CK wrote is one that Trump supporters need to hear, and I think Louis CK is exactly the right person to deliver it to them.

I'll grant you that his message didn't provide any genuine insights that others haven't already delivered more eloquently. But Trump supporters self-evidently don't care about insight or eloquence -- that's why they're Trump supporters. It's also true that Louis CK isn't any kind of public policy expert and has no training in economics or broader social science or any other field relevant to this year's presidential race. But policy expertise is also something that Trump supporters self-evidently don't care about.

All Louis CK is is a celebrity who has been on TV a lot, has shown some charisma here and there, and who is now blurting out a semi-informed opinion about a topic he has no real expertise in.

And that is why Trump supporters might actually listen to him.
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What you say is reasonable and I can see you point.

I wil just reiterate, and obviously Louie doesn't business advice from me, but the people know him as someone who's funny.  If there's a universal note I'm noticing hearing the Trump voters, its stuff akin to "he tells it like it is, he's a breath of fresh air, he's not poltically correct".  

So here is Louie, a guy who if the public generally has a connection with, I think they're going to generally associate him with making them laugh, with one of the most fertile sources of comedy ever, Donald Trump 2016 President and he puts this out talking at those folks.   I don't know who or where this message was directed, to me it sounds like echo chamber stuff but like I said, I appreciate the point you raise as it reaching Trump supporters.

I think the Blacks Lives Matter movement was an important and valid one, but I really took issue with so much of it being tied to Michael Brown, who on the merits of what we know, didn't seem like the right face to put on an important message.  

I feel somewhat the same about Trump and the feeling these voters are expressing.  They feel marginalized, left out, ignored and feel that they are talked at and talked down to for feeling the way they do.  We can talk about the merits of those feelings but those feelings are real.  

So while Donald Trump may be the "wrong" face of this marginalization, he is here, and he is the face nonetheless.  

And just to put a bow on things and restate myself, but I feel it bears repeating, I enjoy Louis work.  I have listened to him on the radio for years and while I know he had a self important streak, that is sometimes a byproduct of perspective and opinion.  But I've always enjoyed and appreciated him because he's a funny guy.  

This piece isn't funny. And thats not a sin but from a selfish perspective, I've been fans of as I mentioned Dennis Miller and Janene Garafalo.  And when comedians start trying to be profound instead of funny, the funny rarely comes back.  

 
flapgreen said:
You should realize how crazy you are when almost no one else thinks something so insane. 
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You're kidding, right?  Or being deliberately obtuse.

There have been countless examples, particularly recently, of political scientists, historians, pundits, normal everyday Joes and Janes who have drawn the comparison.  To think this is a foreign concept speaks to your ignorance and/or unwillingness to understand the concerns being expressed about Trump.

 
If elected President, Trump would have the potential to do more damage to the world in one moment of pique or anger than Adolf Hitler could have done during his entire 12 year reign. 

 
TripItUp said:
when you write hyperbole like this it causes people to take you less seriously.
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Welp.  I don't consider it hyperbole at all.  Trump supporters have already said, short of shooting their daughter and grandchildren, they'll support him.  This has turned into a charade, and his cult following is the kind of stuff very dangerous men in power have used to commit crimes against humanity in the past.  This is not something to fantasize about Trump, either.  He has indicated, explicitly, that he would.  And, the cult cheers him on.

 
KingPrawn said:
Help me out here. Can you list a few?
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Well they both wrote books about their political views. 

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf and Trump produced a book entitled The America That We Deserve, a manifesto of his vision for the country. Among other things, Trump expressed his tolerance for diversity, including the prosecution of hate crimes. In the book, he described a society that has moved beyond “racism, discrimination against women, or discrimination against people based on sexual orientation.”

Oh yeah and they both had big political rallies. Totally the same. 

 
Loan Sharks said:
Well they both wrote books about their political views. 

Hitler wrote Mein Kampf and Trump produced a book entitled The America That We Deserve, a manifesto of his vision for the country. Among other things, Trump expressed his tolerance for diversity, including the prosecution of hate crimes. In the book, he described a society that has moved beyond “racism, discrimination against women, or discrimination against people based on sexual orientation.”

Oh yeah and they both had big political rallies. Totally the same. 
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You forgot Hitler had a small penis and Trump has small hands

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The message Louis CK wrote is one that Trump supporters need to hear, and I think Louis CK is exactly the right person to deliver it to them.
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I agree with you and Louis CK that Trump is an #######.  Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to post as some kind of defense of Trump.  He's terrible.

Having said that, I'm interested in the idea that Louis CK is exactly the right person to talk to Trump supporters.  How many potential Trump voters do you think know who Louis CK is?  How many Trump voters enjoy watching Louis CK stand-up routines?  Probably about zero.  How many Trump voters care that a liberal comic thinks that their preferred candidate is comparable to Hitler?  Again, probably zero.  Most of them likely assume that all liberals feel that way about all Republicans.  

I was thinking the same thing a few days ago, when everybody was posting that John Oliver show that "blasted" Trump.  That show was mostly awful.  Oliver spent about 15 seconds on the time that Trump called for reprisals against the families of terrorists -- a clear-cut war crime -- but went on and on about his short fingers and the Drumpf ancestral name, both of which are mildly funny but also frivolous.  But forget about that.  The thing that stuck with me was how John Oliver specifically addressed Trump voters, as if he were talking to them.  I would like to see a Venn diagram showing the intersection of "Potential Trump Voters" and "John Oliver Viewers."  If that set is not empty, it is at least very small.

Both of these just strike me as being clear-cut case of members of one ingroup talking among themselves about how bad the outgroup is.  Which just pushes the outgroup to support Trump that much harder.    

It's a much bigger deal for guys like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan to weigh in against Trump.  They may be "establishment," but at least they belong to the same group as Trump voters and can make at least a little headway with those folks.

 
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cobalt_27 said:
It's long, but an essential read:

http://www.vox.com/2016/3/1/11127424/trump-authoritarianism
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Not really an apt comparison, that article draw the comparison that authoritarians were drawn to Hitler and authoritarians are also drawn to Trump so they are the same. Authoritarianism has been part of American politics for a long time and there have been other authoritarian presidents such as Wilson and Kennedy who had similar control and charisma. 

Trump specifically calls for no bigotry in his policies. "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" is authoritarian not fascist nazi mass murderist. 

 
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timschochet said:
If elected President, Trump would have the potential to do more damage to the world in one moment of pique or anger than Adolf Hitler could have done during his entire 12 year reign. 
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Gtf outta here!

You could say the same about anyone elected President of the US, Russia,China, India, Pakistan, France or UK.

Trump has a temperament unsuited to the office, but so does Ted Cruz. Probably Hilary as well.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
I agree with you and Louis CK that Trump is an #######.  Please don't misunderstand what I'm about to post as some kind of defense of Trump.  He's terrible.

Having said that, I'm interested in the idea that Louis CK is exactly the right person to talk to Trump supporters.  How many potential Trump voters do you think know who Louis CK is?  How many Trump voters enjoy watching Louis CK stand-up routines?  Probably about zero.  How many Trump voters care that a liberal comic thinks that their preferred candidate is comparable to Hitler?  Again, probably zero.  Most of them likely assume that all liberals feel that way about all Republicans.  

I was thinking the same thing a few days ago, when everybody was posting that John Oliver show that "blasted" Trump.  That show was mostly awful.  Oliver spent about 15 seconds on the time that Trump called for reprisals against the families of terrorists -- a clear-cut war crime -- but went on and on about his short fingers and the Drumpf ancestral name, both of which are mildly funny but also frivolous.  But forget about that.  The thing that stuck with me was how John Oliver specifically addressed Trump voters, as if he were talking to them.  I would like to see a Venn diagram showing the intersection of "Potential Trump Voters" and "John Oliver Viewers."  If that set is not empty, it is at least very small.

Both of these just strike me as being clear-cut case of members of one ingroup talking among themselves about how bad the outgroup is.  Which just pushes the outgroup to support Trump that much harder.    

It's a much bigger deal for guys like Mitt Romney and Paul Ryan to weigh in against Trump.  They may be "establishment," but at least they belong to the same group as Trump voters and can make at least a little headway with those folks.
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Ivan, I was watching a little town hall with Florida voters and one was a mayor I think. They were talking about all the candidates and when they came to Trump the question was posed do you think Trump is a racist the mayor smirked and said. "We know who Donald is, he has been in the media for years we are not concerned about that." He went on to say their real concerns about Trump was his political inexperience. 

The insurmountable hurdle to making "headway" with Trump supporters and well anyone, is Trump has been on Tv forever and no one thinks he is a racist. He may be, but he has not shown himself to be in countless television interactions, public and business interactions with all groups of people. It may be a con or a show or a Donald Sterling thing but people "know" Donald Trump and he isn't Hitler. 

Plus Mike Tyson endorses him and says he's not a racist. 

 
Loan Sharks said:
Not really an apt comparison, that article draw the comparison that authoritarians were drawn to Hitler and authoritarians are also drawn to Trump so they are the same. Authoritarianism has been part of American politics for a long time and there have been other authoritarian presidents such as Wilson and Kennedy who had similar control and charisma. 

Trump specifically calls for no bigotry in his policy. "Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country" is authoritarian not fascist mass murderist. 
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Youre interpretation of authoritarianism is rather loose and expansive.  Basically to the extent I'm not sure you understand what it is.

 
cobalt_27 said:
Youre interpretation of authoritarianism is rather loose and expansive.  Basically to the extent I'm not sure you understand what it is.
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Wait are you saying that American authoritarianism is not the loosest mildest authoritarianism there is?  Democracy and Authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive. You saying that we are going to jump from low authoritarian to a totalitarian regime under Donald Trump leads me to believe have a hard time with perspective. 

 
Loan Sharks said:
Wait are you saying that American authoritarianism is not the loosest mildest authoritarianism there is?  Democracy and Authoritarianism are not mutually exclusive. You saying that we are going to jump from low authoritarian to a totalitarian regime under Donald Trump leads me to believe have a hard time with perspective. 
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I'm not saying he will be successful in creating a totalitarian regime.  We have, after all, a Constitution and rule of law...which, incidentally, seems to be rather inconvenient to Trump and his cult of followers.

 
cobalt_27 said:
I'm not saying he will be successful in creating a totalitarian regime.  We have, after all, a Constitution and rule of law...which, incidentally, seems to be rather inconvenient to Trump and his cult of followers.
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Ok fair enough. You may believe that Trump intends to be like HItler that is your right. But the alarmist reaction that Trump will somehow destroy the country has no basis in fact. Worst case scenario, he is a crappy president, not the harbinger of doom. 

 
Louis CK has really jumped the shark form being a stand up comedian. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the guy a lot. Over the last 4-5 years we have seen him crossover into major motion pictures and eventually he looks like he might take on some real film work. His show on FX is easily one of the top cable shows. 

It's part of the process. If CK wants to speak out or say this about Trump, that's fine. I enjoy Seth Rogen but he spoke out in the last year or so on a variety of issues and I really don't care. Clooney has his opinions but I still watch many of his films. Brad Pitt and his wife...

I'm not mad at C.K. in any way, he has the luxury to act this way due to his strong work ethic in building his brand the last 20 years. I don't have to agree with it and he will soon learn that preaching politics or one side over the other is a death nail eventually. Carlin, a man who Louis C.K. holds responsible for many of the good things in his career, he usually did not attack the GOP directly as many think. He would attack all politicians and didn't really differentiate them much on stage IMO. Was Carlin anti-war? Sure he was but he also enjoyed grabbing a ticket to the freak show as he called it. 

No one will remember this in a few months and besides, stopping Trump with Ted Cruz is going to be a tall order. You can hate Donald and feel he is the 2nd coming of Hitler but what are the viable options for the GOP right now? There aren't any. McCain and Romney were weak choices, Rubio or whoever would have been weak. Did no one tell Jeb Bush or the folks wanting him as President just how awful this country hated his brother and did Jeb forget he rigged the elections or is at least partly the culprit in many eyes? Did the GOP really think he would win when they gave him $100,000,000.00?

Honestly, Jeb Bush is the major reason the GOP are going to lose their party in this upcoming election. Rich idiots with no forward thinking. I could tell Trump was going to be a tall order from the moment he announced. He was very clear and whether you lied what he said or not, he got attention and media immediately and it never left him. None of the other candidates had any heat or momentum really trending their way outside of at times Ben Carson of all folks.  

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
I'm interested in the idea that Louis CK is exactly the right person to talk to Trump supporters.
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I stated why in my post: because his qualifications have nothing to do with expertise but consist only of his celebrity.

That was a largely tongue-in-cheek answer. I don't have a completely serious answer because Louis CK probably isn't exactly the right person. But I do think he's closer to the right person than some egghead with a fancy degree and a boringly long resume. Trump's supporters, if I may generalize just a bit, really don't seem particularly impressed with those pansy intellectual types.

I share your sentiment about the John Oliver piece. I had high expectations for it because most of what Oliver does is pretty great, but I was disappointed in that segment. In the days leading up to it, there were much better take-downs of Trump by essayists like Matt Walsh, David Brooks, and others. Oliver's piece seemed trite by comparison. Who cares if Trump's ancestors changed their name a few generations before the Donald was born?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I stated why in my post: because his qualifications have nothing to do with expertise but consist only of his celebrity.

That was a largely tongue-in-cheek answer. I don't have a completely serious answer because Louis CK probably isn't exactly the right person. But I do think he's closer to the right person than some egghead with a fancy degree and a boringly long resume. Trump's supporters, if I may generalize just a bit, really don't seem particularly impressed with those pansy intellectual types.

I share your sentiment about the John Oliver piece. I had high expectations for it because most of what Oliver does is pretty great, but I was disappointed in that segment. In the days leading up to it, there were much better take-downs of Trump by essayists like Matt Walsh, David Brooks, and others. Oliver's piece seemed trite by comparison. Who cares if Trump's ancestors changed their name a few generations before the Donald was born?
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I dont think they care for comedians who play into the white privilege theme either. People are exhausted of that ####. 

 
NorvilleBarnes said:
I love  that it's becoming a two man race and the other man is also despised by the establishment. Is Cruz the GOPs best chance of stopping Trump or is Trump their best shot at stopping Cruz? Is the cure worse than the disease? Trump talked about them spending 40 million in Florida to stop him. It might work (I don't think so) but it sure helps his narrative everywhere else.
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It says a lot about the GOPe that they are so scared of Trump they will get behind (directly or indirectly) a guy that they despise and has no chance of beating Hillary. They would rather take an L than give up their power and disrupt the system. It also says a lot about Hillary that the GOPe would rather have her win than Trump.

Fortunately for them most Americans are too busy chit chatting about Hitler and small hands to notice. 

 
SameSongNDance said:
I'm technically half Jewish (I don't subscribe to a religion) and have two grandparents who survived the Holocaust (they have absolutely insane stories to tell). They were the only survivors of their families, the Nazis killed both of their mothers, fathers, sisters and brothers. My grandpa is getting up there in age but he's still cognizant of the world around him. We had a Trump rally on the other day and he drew the Nazi comparison. You want to tell him that because he was able to draw that comparison that he trivialized the Holocaust? 
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He sounds like an idiot. Your posts make a lot more sense now.

 
Ministry of Pain said:
Louis CK has really jumped the shark form being a stand up comedian. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the guy a lot. Over the last 4-5 years we have seen him crossover into major motion pictures and eventually he looks like he might take on some real film work. His show on FX is easily one of the top cable shows. 

It's part of the process. If CK wants to speak out or say this about Trump, that's fine. I enjoy Seth Rogen but he spoke out in the last year or so on a variety of issues and I really don't care. Clooney has his opinions but I still watch many of his films. Brad Pitt and his wife...

I'm not mad at C.K. in any way, he has the luxury to act this way due to his strong work ethic in building his brand the last 20 years. I don't have to agree with it and he will soon learn that preaching politics or one side over the other is a death nail eventually. Carlin, a man who Louis C.K. holds responsible for many of the good things in his career, he usually did not attack the GOP directly as many think. He would attack all politicians and didn't really differentiate them much on stage IMO. Was Carlin anti-war? Sure he was but he also enjoyed grabbing a ticket to the freak show as he called it. 

No one will remember this in a few months and besides, stopping Trump with Ted Cruz is going to be a tall order. You can hate Donald and feel he is the 2nd coming of Hitler but what are the viable options for the GOP right now? There aren't any. McCain and Romney were weak choices, Rubio or whoever would have been weak. Did no one tell Jeb Bush or the folks wanting him as President just how awful this country hated his brother and did Jeb forget he rigged the elections or is at least partly the culprit in many eyes? Did the GOP really think he would win when they gave him $100,000,000.00?

Honestly, Jeb Bush is the major reason the GOP are going to lose their party in this upcoming election. Rich idiots with no forward thinking. I could tell Trump was going to be a tall order from the moment he announced. He was very clear and whether you lied what he said or not, he got attention and media immediately and it never left him. None of the other candidates had any heat or momentum really trending their way outside of at times Ben Carson of all folks.  
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:loco:  

 
IvanKaramazov said:
Guys, you're all misinterpreting the Kasich general-election numbers.  Once you get outside of people who follow politics very closely, the overwhelming majority of people have no ####### idea who John Kasich is. I do follow politics somewhat, and I would have to google him to remember the highlights of his political career.  I'm positive that I'm not alone on that.  So when you see a poll that asks people "If the election was held today, would you vote for Hillary Clinton or John Kasich?" you might as well have asked voters if they prefer Hillary to Hercules B. Wonderful or Max Power or some other random, made-up name that signifies only "somebody other than Hillary, and not that ####### with the weird hair, or that pedo guy."

In other words, those results tell you nothing about John Kasich.  They just tell you that people would love a genuine alternative to Hillary, which the Republican party seems determined not to give them.   
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Listen to him speak at a debate, he'll tell you what he has accomplished   It is his version of "make America great again" or "my father was a waiter and my mother was a maid"

 
timschochet said:
If elected President, Trump would have the potential to do more damage to the world in one moment of pique or anger than Adolf Hitler could have done during his entire 12 year reign. 
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Don't fool yourself....every single person that steps into that office has that potential.  That's because that's what the position provides.

 
The betting markets are giving Romney about a 1% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Does that seem far-fetched, or does that actually seem too low?

Say Trump falls short of the required delegates and it's a contested convention. Romney wouldn't mind being President -- he just didn't want to campaign -- and everyone agrees that he's a way better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The betting markets are giving Romney about a 1% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Does that seem far-fetched, or does that actually seem too low?

Say Trump falls short of the required delegates and it's a contested convention. Romney wouldn't mind being President -- he just didn't want to campaign -- and everyone agrees that he's a way better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al.
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The process of choosing delegates varies by state, so it's complicated.  But many of the delegates will be at the convention because they are Trump or Cruz supporters.  None of those people want Romney.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The betting markets are giving Romney about a 1% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Does that seem far-fetched, or does that actually seem too low?

Say Trump falls short of the required delegates and it's a contested convention. Romney wouldn't mind being President -- he just didn't want to campaign -- and everyone agrees that he's a way better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al.
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$3 to hedge my bet seems like pretty cheap insurance at this point.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The betting markets are giving Romney about a 1% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Does that seem far-fetched, or does that actually seem too low?

Say Trump falls short of the required delegates and it's a contested convention. Romney wouldn't mind being President -- he just didn't want to campaign -- and everyone agrees that he's a way better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al.
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Where is Paul Ryan on that list?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
The betting markets are giving Romney about a 1% chance of winning the Republican nomination. Does that seem far-fetched, or does that actually seem too low?

Say Trump falls short of the required delegates and it's a contested convention. Romney wouldn't mind being President -- he just didn't want to campaign -- and everyone agrees that he's a way better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al.
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The percentage is zero. It is far fetched. Not everyone agrees Mitt is a better choice than Trump, Cruz, Rubio et al. The talk of a contested convention is nonsense. If they give the nomination to a person who is not the leader that is it, GOP no more. It will be the party that refutes the voters. Not giving the nom to the leader? not second? not third or fourth? But to go pick someone who is not even running. If by some miracle of idiocy that happened. It would lead to the biggest blowout in presidential history.

Brokered convention is simply a rally cry for candidates who are losing to Trump, they were losing hope and needed to be motivated that they could still win. It amounts to a coach telling his team they are still in the game and all they need is to get a stop a punt return two onside kick recoveries drive down the field for scores and a safety and they are going to win!

 
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