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***Official 2018 St. Louis Cardinals Thread*** -- Matheny gone (1 Viewer)

Is it fair to think that a Davis signing signals a Matt Adams trade? And if so, what kind of market do we think there is for a guy like that?

 
Bob Sacamano said:
Bruce Dickinson said:
when it could be spent on corner outfielders and first basemen.
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If they go Davis instead of Heyward, I'd have to think it's with the idea of starting Holliday-Grichuk-Piscotty and trying to find an upgraded 4th option rather than a guy they'd have to pay (Jay-Pham currently?).
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Shows how much of the rest of the offseason is dependent on Heyward, isn't it? I agree with you, BTW.

There's also the complication of at least one SP job opening up with Lance Lynn already out for the year, Lackey likely gone, Wainwright coming off missing almost all of last season, and Garcia capable of going on the DL from stepping in an unreplaced divot in the grass.

If they need to shed salary to make another move, I suppose they could choose not to pay arbitration prices for Rosenthal and sell high on him instead. He wouldn't have Kimbrel-like trade value, but could get an MLB-ready talent for him. That would mean making Seigrist the closer and/or hoping Jordan Walden is healthy by next season, but would cut costs at a position where teams usually overpay.

 
RnR said:
Is it fair to think that a Davis signing signals a Matt Adams trade? And if so, what kind of market do we think there is for a guy like that?
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Too bad he can't catch, but he'd have some value at 1B or an AL DH/1B. If Davis signs, you would think Adams would be gone. He'd certainly have more trade value than Brandon Moss. Wouldn't feel good about starting next season with Moss as the primary 1B, but as a bench bat and rest day 1B, I like him a lot.

 
I meant to post this in here back when it happened, but MLB Tonight had a few of the writers giving their "parting takes" from the GM Meetings down in Florida earlier this month.

The final question revolved around a "bold prediction" coming out of the GM Meetings in anticipation of the Winter Meetings.

USA Today's Bob Nightengale predicted that the Cardinals would start spending some of that TV windfall and sign both David Price and Jason Heyward to big contracts.

Food for thought in late November.

 
I would welcome both of those signings.

For reasons we've discussed, I think they will either sign Heyward or go down swinging. They will offer him the largest contract in franchise history.

David Price would be a welcome addition to the staff. A bit off-brand to spend that much money on a pitcher outside the organization, but his pattern of being unhittable in the regular season and ordinary in the playoffs means he will fit right in. :kicksrock:

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
David Price would be a welcome addition to the staff. A bit off-brand to spend that much money on a pitcher outside the organization, but his pattern of being unhittable in the regular season and ordinary in the playoffs means he will fit right in. :kicksrock:
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I heard a writer say that Cardinals management thinks the Cubs could be the best regular-season team in the majors, but the lack of a third top-line starter (as well as a lineup filled with guys who K over 150 times) is their soft spot come October. They might overbid for Price just to keep him away from the Cubs. And it's no big deal if they lose the division by ten games, as long as they get a WC and get to meet up with them in a seven game series.

 
Encyclopedia Brown said:
Bruce Dickinson said:
David Price would be a welcome addition to the staff. A bit off-brand to spend that much money on a pitcher outside the organization, but his pattern of being unhittable in the regular season and ordinary in the playoffs means he will fit right in. :kicksrock:
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I heard a writer say that Cardinals management thinks the Cubs could be the best regular-season team in the majors, but the lack of a third top-line starter (as well as a lineup filled with guys who K over 150 times) is their soft spot come October. They might overbid for Price just to keep him away from the Cubs. And it's no big deal if they lose the division by ten games, as long as they get a WC and get to meet up with them in a seven game series.
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Easy there, pal. No one is conceding the division by 10 games to the baby bears just because they won a five-game series.

ETA: The more I look at this, the more I laugh. Cubs step up and finish third in the division in 2015, and suddenly the team that has had one losing season in the last 16 (and had the best record in baseball in 2015) is suddenly buying David Price just to keep him away from the Cubs in hopes of meeting up with the almighty Cubs in the postseason after deferring to their regular season dominance.

This is why the Cubs can't have nice things.

 
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Cardinals sign C Brayan Pena. Two years, $5MM.

That's a lot of money for a backup catcher and not play him. So I guess they're serious about reducing Yadi's workload next season.

Also assume this means no arbitration for Tony Cruz.

 
Yadi probably going to vent on Instagram about having to catch that ******* for another two years.

 
Brayan Pena may see some late-inning action to protect Yadi's sanity.

Speaking of Pena, he was supposedly Cueto's closest friend on the Reds and Cueto is interested in signing with the Cardinals to play for a contender and reunite with Pena.

Moz says it's unlikely the team offers Cueto a contract because too many people in the organization were around back in 2010 when Cueto got a bit kicky after the benches emptied.

 
I'd be interested to see the fan reaction if Cueto put on the birds on the bat. Do they forgive and forget that easily? Does he have to win them over before he gets the customary standing ovation?

 
The Viva El Birdos crew still holds a grudge. They refused to even assess Cueto's free agency market. Phrases like "No" and "Hell, No" popped up.

If Heyward does end up with CHC, LAA, or WSN, I wouldn't mind spending some of that Heyward money on another SP. Heck, could probably sign Cueto and Leake for the same guaranteed money Heyward is going to get.

 
People would learn to love Jeffrey Leonard if he'd show up and win. The problem with Cueto is that he's certifiable AND you're going to now have to break the bank for him.

 
Bob Sacamano said:
Bruce Dickinson said:
CARDINALS SIGN

Jonathan Broxton.

Two years. $7.5MM.

No-trade clause.

Too late to hop on the Cubs bandwagon? FTS.
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WAY TO VOMIT ALL OVER THE OFFSEASON, MOZE.WTF? Byun-Hyun Kim wouldn't take his calls?

Worthless lop of shit.
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If the $7.5MM guaranteed to Broxton was the difference between "Jason Heyward, STL" and "Jason Heyward, CHC", I'm dunzo with Moz. Consider him on my Dunzo List.Dunzo.

 
I have a weird sense of calm about me regarding Heyward's decision. Things are either going to work out alright (a la Pujols deal), or I just died a little and don't know it yet.

 
Not for a lack of effort:

@Ken_Rosenthal: Sources: #Nationals bid $200M for Heyward. Another team, believed to be #STLCards, also was at $200M. Heyward took less to play for #Cubs.

 
Good Posting Judge said:
I was actually at one of those Leonard playoff games when he hit a bomb. Place was ####### defeaning. Dunno if it was g3 or g4, think it was 4. :shrug:
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Leonard homered in the first four games of that NLCS. Could have been either G3 or G4. The G3 HR extended a lead, the G4 homer was a 2-run shot with SFG trailing by 1. Either homer would have brought on a deafening roar.

Had the timing of Forsch's beanball wrong. Forsch beaned Leonard in Game 3 in his next at-bat after his homer. STL came back to win that game, but Leonard didn't cool off until after Game 4.

Hack Man was named NLCS MVP even with his team losing the series.

The game I remember most from that NLCS was Game 6, back to Busch II down 3-2. Tudor was got out of a bunch of jams and took a shutout into the 8th. Then Whitey brought Worrell in during the 8th to pitch to the 4-5-6 hitters. Then with one out the 9th, Whitey brought Dayley in to pitch, but put Worrell in RF in case he wanted to put Worrell back on the mound later in the inning.

This was a frequent move for Whitey down the stretch. After Clark got hurt, Jim Lindeman moved from RF to 1B and no one took over the RF job. Whitey would use RF to stash relief pitchers during innings to create/exploit mismatches without burning through the whole bullpen.

 
Bring talk back to current concerns, Mozeliak says the Cardinals will not make a "dynamic" signing this offseason, saying the Cardinals are out of the bidding for anything involving a nine-figure contract.

So drop STL from consideration for the top outfielders left, as well as Cueto. Doubt they are in it for Leake, either.

My guess is the last "big" move they make this offseason is signing Cliff Lee to a one-year deal in the $8-10MM range. There's an opening in the rotation with Lynn out for the year, and it will take lay least one more SP beyond that to get through the season given every other SP carries some injury risk and history.

Disappointing offseason. Contending roster, money to spend, contributing pieces available for purchase, and so far the biggest acquisition is Jedd Gyorko.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Good Posting Judge said:
I was actually at one of those Leonard playoff games when he hit a bomb. Place was ####### defeaning. Dunno if it was g3 or g4, think it was 4. :shrug:
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Leonard homered in the first four games of that NLCS. Could have been either G3 or G4. The G3 HR extended a lead, the G4 homer was a 2-run shot with SFG trailing by 1. Either homer would have brought on a deafening roar.
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Think it was G4, I'm pretty sure they won, which they did in 4 but not 3.

My dad, to his credit, is one of those fairly laid-back Bay Area sports fans who'll root for either team. He was kind of a Raiders fan before they moved, and then they did, and then that kind of sealed our fate. And I don't think the boundary between Raiders/49ers is anywhere near as fluid as it is for A's/Giants.

Also was at '88 WS game 5. :X

 
Those As teams sure were fun to watch. I ####### loved Rickey Henderson. But yeah, the 88 and 90 WS must be a bit bitter.

'85 WS Game 5. :cry:

'13 WS Game 5. :rant:

 
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This is going to sound like sour grapes, but I swear it is not.

After seeing/hearing some of Heyward's comments about the Cardinals being a team in the midst of changes, I'm feeling even better about him not signing with the St. Louis.

To me, the comments came off as a guy that is looking to be a piece of the puzzle on a winning team. That's not a guy you pay $200 million. At least not in a market like St. Louis.

If you're signing a guy to that type of contract in St. Louis, you have to pay that to a guy you're sure will embrace being a leader, cornerstone piece to the club and a face of the franchise.

He mentions Waino, Holliday and Yadi as being guys on their way out, yet fails to recognize the Cards wanted to make him the "next in line" to fill that role. Just like Pujols, Edmonds, Rolen, Carpenter, etc. led until they aged, paving the way for Waino, Holliday and Yadi to sign extensions with the understanding that they'd transition in to those roles with time.

If Heyward didn't see that, or better yet saw it and didn't want it, then the Cards are better off allocating those immense resources elsewhere.

 
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Wrigley said:
You're right, sounds like sour grapes
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I wasn't even the slightest bit upset the day it happened. Cards made a very strong offer and he decided he'd rather be elsewhere. I'd rather him make that decision than to take the money for the sake of taking it.

That's not to say he won't be terrific for the duration of the contract for you guys. I'm a fan of his work.

 
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The hits keep on coming...

Yadi had his thumb surgery redone yesterday. First attempt didn't take. Will not be ready at the start of Spring Training and isn't a sure thing to be ready by Opening Day. He'll recover fully for defensive purposes, but expect his ability to grip a bat to be diminished. So, don't expect a bounce back year from him at the plate.

Grichuk had sports hernia surgery recently. Not a big deal, routine procedure, well-timed, should be fine. But still, now that the starting CF job seems to have been thrust upon him and he won't have a plus-plus RF making his job easier, it's worth noting.

 
I read that as, "I wanted to play with the team I thought had the better chance of winning long-term, and I took less money to try to accomplish that."

We skewer people for doing the opposite all the time. Not sure why you'd view that as a negative for Heyward.

 
Not bothered by Heyward's comments because of Heyward specifically. It stings a little to see a player choose the Cubs over the Cardinals because he wanted to play for the team in better position to win, and be making the right choice. But that's not on Heyward. That's on DeWitt and Mozeliak.

Plus, with the opt-outs he got CHC to include in the deal, he will make more than $200MM over the years the of the contract the Cardinals offered him, probably a lot more.

 
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Bob Sacamano said:
I read that as, "I wanted to play with the team I thought had the better chance of winning long-term, and I took less money to try to accomplish that."

We skewer people for doing the opposite all the time. Not sure why you'd view that as a negative for Heyward.
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He took "less money" because of the ability to opt out. If he's as good as we think he'll be, this is a 3-year deal with the Cubs. If he's not, then he's hanging around for the duration of the deal. In that regard, it's actually a friendly contract to the Cardinals. He's either going to kill us for a short period of time and then command $30 mil per year on the open market, or he's going to underwhelm and be an anchor around the neck of the Cubs for the better part of a decade.

 
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Bruce Dickinson said:
Not bothered by Heyward's comments because of Heyward specifically. It stings a little to see a player choose the Cubs over the Cardinals because he wanted to play for the team in better position to win, and be making the right choice. But that's not on Heyward. That's on DeWitt and Mozeliak.

Plus, with the opt-outs he got CHC to include in the deal, he will make more than $200MM over the years the of the contract the Cardinals offered him, probably a lot more.
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I get the allure of the Cubs. They're loaded with young talent, Maddon is an awesome manager and the Cubs winning a world series is the holy grail of organized sports.

I don't mean to be a Pollyanna here because I know the Cubs are likely going to be good for a while, but I'm not sure how Heyward can look at anything these organizations have done during his lifetime and conclude with a clear conscience that the Cubs are certain to be in a better position to win for the long term.

The Cardinals have had one losing season in the last 16. They have a growing amount of financial flexibility, a good stash of young pitching and are coming off a season in which they boasted the best record in baseball. There is every reason to be optimistic that the machine is still functioning.

Are Holliday, Wainwright and Molina getting old? Absolutely.

But this didn't start with them and I firmly believe it doesn't end with them either.

One organization has demonstrated that it's capable of transitioning successfully from one core group of players to the next. The other has been searching for an identity since before Heyward's grandfather was born.

 
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RnR said:
Bruce Dickinson said:
Not bothered by Heyward's comments because of Heyward specifically. It stings a little to see a player choose the Cubs over the Cardinals because he wanted to play for the team in better position to win, and be making the right choice. But that's not on Heyward. That's on DeWitt and Mozeliak.

Plus, with the opt-outs he got CHC to include in the deal, he will make more than $200MM over the years the of the contract the Cardinals offered him, probably a lot more.
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I get the allure of the Cubs. They're loaded with young talent, Maddon is an awesome manager and the Cubs winning a world series is the holy grail of organized sports.

I don't mean to be a Pollyanna here because I know the Cubs are likely going to be good for a while, but I'm not sure how Heyward can look at anything these organizations have done during his lifetime and conclude with a clear conscience that the Cubs are certain to be in a better position to win for the long term.

The Cardinals have had one losing season in the last 16. They have a growing amount of financial flexibility, a good stash of young pitching and are coming off a season in which they boasted the best record in baseball. There is every reason to be optimistic that the machine is still functioning.

Are Holliday, Wainwright and Molina getting old? Absolutely.

But this didn't start with them and I firmly believe it doesn't end with them either.

One organization has demonstrated that it's capable of transitioning successfully from one core group of players to the next. The other has been searching for an identity since before Heyward's grandfather was born.
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Far from mid-season hot take form

 
Bob Sacamano said:
The rest I can see lumping in with the others who came before them, but the end of Molina is another story. Way more reach.
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Pujols had far more impact than Molina during his tenure and they've found a way without him.

Granted, the system doesn't seem to have a replacement for Molina in the works. I'll give you that. We're in trouble there.

 
Matt Holliday has been spending the offseason learning how to play first base.

Encouraged by this. He never was much of an outfielder and he's just getting older. Hasn't been an organization need for Holliday to be able to play 1B, but if the Cardinals really are interested in Alex Gordon, Holliday to 1B would open up Gordon's best position.

 
Bruce Dickinson said:
Matt Holliday has been spending the offseason learning how to play first base.

Encouraged by this. He never was much of an outfielder and he's just getting older. Hasn't been an organization need for Holliday to be able to play 1B, but if the Cardinals really are interested in Alex Gordon, Holliday to 1B would open up Gordon's best position.
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If it works out, I'd much rather have Holliday at 1B and Piscotty in the field.

 
Brady Marino said:
Bruce Dickinson said:
Matt Holliday has been spending the offseason learning how to play first base.

Encouraged by this. He never was much of an outfielder and he's just getting older. Hasn't been an organization need for Holliday to be able to play 1B, but if the Cardinals really are interested in Alex Gordon, Holliday to 1B would open up Gordon's best position.
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If it works out, I'd much rather have Holliday at 1B and Piscotty in the field.
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Absolutely. Piscotty is athletic enough to play a corner outfield spot and has a lot of experience playing 3B. Not sure if he would have a plus arm in RF, but LF shouldn't be a difficult transition. No need to box Piscotty in at 1B if there are other options.

Moving Holliday to 1B would likely mean dumping Moss or Adams, but I'm unbothered by that. If Moss has a good year he'll be way too expensive to keep in 2017 and beyond, and I doubt Adams will ever have another healthy full season.

 
Morosi reporting Cards are in discussions with the Rays about a trade for starting pitching. Perhaps Adams could be someone they'd be interested in acquiring? I can't imagine the Cards are dangling Piscotty or Grichuk after missing on Heyward, unless there really is a plan in place to grab someone like Alex Gordon.

 
Odorizzi is probably the target. He's from Cardinals territory (Breese IL) and would cost less than Archer.

I'm with you about the confusion over who the Cardinals would give up in a trade for young pitching. Like you said, if Heyward stayed, Piscotty would be expendable, but right now he's the starting RF. No MLB-ready bats in AAA worth trading for, top arm prospect just got a drug suspension.

 
The system looks uncharacteristically thin right now, especially on the hitting side. Of course they've graduated a haul of talent recently but the next wave of prospects needs some seasoning. St. Louis has their usual collection of highly rated minor league arms but Marco Gonzales, Alex Reyes and Tim Cooney all had injury shortened 2015 seasons.

It's hard to see them wrapping a Xmas present for Tampa without opening a hole somewhere else at the big league level.

 
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