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It;s also possible that their myocardium was the result of contacting COVID and not the vaccine, we just don't know at this point.
It's also possible it's not related to either. We'll be learning about this for years
you know what does cure covid? a lethal dose of anthrax. guaranteed to stop the spread.
Understood....I believe the claim is myocarditis though (disguised in the "I'm just asking questions" trope of BS)....that's not how myocarditis works. What's happening now in this thread is a terrible conflation of terms at best, a completely dishonest fake story at worst. Prior to COVID and the vaccines we had an estimated 6-7K cases like these every single year. That number hasn't changed in any meaningful way post covid/vaccines. One has to believe some pretty extreme things to ignore that. My best advice to everyone is when you see this sort of inaccuracy (like conflating damage done previously with an active condition), you clear it up and just move on.
The link you provide points to slides that are reporting to VAERS which has ZERO to do with anything that was discussed prior to this post. As stated before we get 6-7K cases of myocarditis a year (on average). That was true well before COVID existed and is true now. NO ONE here has said myocarditis isn't a potential side effect. Of course it is. It's a potential side effect in well over 95% of other vaccines too. That's not new in any way. It occurs at roughly 50% of the time it occurs after one takes a flu shot.
my.clevelandclinic.org
I have to say I'm really confused by this, but I'll drop it as there's no point in a prolonged back and forth. There were several posts talking about the link between mRNA vaccines and myocarditis, so I provided a link to slides presented the ACIP meeting in 2021 to provide some numbers, particularly in young men as that's where all of the signal seems to reside. Also, you can say 6-7K cases a year, but the rate observed in the 1 week post 2nd dose would be a yearly rate of 10K+ just in men ages 18-24 alone, who are obviously only a small slice of the population. Also, the slide already has base rate on it, which the CDC apparently has at 1/20 or less of the observed rate. Maybe that's wrong, I certainly don't have any expertise in this matter, but if so take it up with the CDC. You seem to be arguing that these are not real cases or are caused by other vaccines at the same rate and we just don't usually pick them up, not sure which.
Please don't....I think it's important. The slide I am seeing is titled:
Okay, I think I understand your position now, which is that the VAERS data is a lot of noise and greatly exaggerating any sort of signal. Hence, it's an apples and oranges comparison that is being done in the slide deck.
Doctors have observed through most of the incidents that there is a rise in certain age groups. When it comes to VAERS and the "anyone can put whatever they want into that system" dynamic, I'd expect those areas within the narrative to be elevated, ESPECIALLY when it's an age group where moms are potentially involved. I.E. "I heard that these heart issues occur after having gotten the vaccine in kids my boy's age group. My boy has a heart issue so I am going to report it as myocarditis because I hear that's going around". Anything goes in VAERS. More importantly, I
I considered that, but would you a priori expect the “nervous mom” factor to be 10X for boys than for girls? That doesn’t make sense to me. I do understand your point about the data set being less than ideal (to put it mildly), and I think I would agree with you if there wasn’t such a pronounced signal in the data. If it was something bizarre like increased rates for only young women and old men, or a general 2-3X increase across the board, I’d be right there with you. But for a 20X signal in a narrow age band of men, I just don’t see how you get there without some real effect. To be fair, maybe not myocarditis specifically, but some real signal is being picked up. It’s the statistical equivalent of a klaxon alarm. The p value is <.0001. Fortunately, while the statistical signal is large the effect is still small in the grand scheme of things, so I’m not arguing this is some Armageddon-style event, but seems to obviously merit follow-up by scientists. Which, maybe beyond the prying eyes of the public is happening. I hope so.
I guess to this I’ll just answer that Covid was a huge deal with far reaching effects , so it’s natural for people to talk about things related to it. People still debate tactics at the battle of Gettysburg 150+ years later. And I don't disagree that apart from corner cases the vast majority of people have had a positive benefit from the vaccines. This can be true even if they have some drawbacks, and it shouldn't preclude discussion about those drawbacks.
I don't really "expect" anything from unverified VAERS data if I'm being completely honest. That's because there are ZERO restrictions on who can enter events on the system. It's a monumental task to go through all those and verify and validate them. Only then can we begin to use the data in any meaningful way. To the bold, this is a good point and something else to consider. During a time where there's a good amount of panic, there is also a heightened sense of awareness, so things that are shrugged off as a cold or a sore throat, or chest congestion under normal circumstances are now all getting reported. Again, this why the verification process is so terribly important if the "cases" are going to be used in any metric for comparison. To your analogy...I understand what you're saying exactly. What I will say is that your conclusion is a reasonable one. It would be one of many reasonable ones we could come up with for the circumstance. In effect, your stats gathering at this stage is much akin to beginning to narrow down a bunch of reasonable conclusions, but not much has been done on the "probable" front if anything at all.
Oh, I think you know the reasons behind this campaign. The amplification happens because "influencers" can use it to bolster their personal brands.
I was responding to this:
Trying to add perspective to that, which I read as exactly what I said: people failing to understand the risk of viral induced myocarditis is higher than vaccine induced. The vaccine likely lowers your odds of myocarditis.
I see only one poster "conflating" a pro-vaccine poster with anti-vax weirdos. "You people are nuts" is plural.
And yet you quoted an entirely different poster, who was making and sane and reasonable point about the relative benefits and side effects of the vaccine. Try learning how the quote feature works next time.
Who quoted my first statement. So I quoted him and said we're in agreement. Because I think we are.
The bolded may be true if the vaccines worked as originally planned, but they do not. I mean, there is a cumulative effect here.
Maybe. Depends on on the vaccine efficacy and how much more likely you are to get myocarditis from the virus. Definitely needs more study.
People can, and do, say things like that. When used to push conspiracy theories however those pesky "disclaimers" become pretty important IMO.
Well that is the problem, right? People take a snippet of information and then distribute it without context and change the meaning.
Agree. People can say whatever they want. But if they say that, I think it's completely appropriate to say "Yes, and COVID is X times more likely to cause myocarditis based on recent data."
I was thinking of more like daily life stuff but yea that is a good point.
Yea, but that one was one more than you would have seen pre-pandemic.
I found that out before the pandemic and now.... no, thanks, I have no desire to go anywhere to work.
I do a lot less in-store shipping. Like grocery shopping or going to Target. Either instacart or curbside. So much time saved.
I think that was the directiom things were going but much like remote working from.home, the pandemic supercharged it exposing people to it.
Amen
