Interseptopus
Footballguy
Yeah that's confusing to me. Deandre Washington was my lotto ticket this year and I was disappointed to see Richard working as much as he has been. Turns out I had the last name right but wrong team
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***Official*** Dwayne Washington, RB, DET (20 Viewers)
- Thread starter JFS171
- Start date
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
I still like DeAndre. Looked great in the preseason. But what they have right now works for them. Latavius loses effectiveness as his carries increase. This formula seems to be doing them well, so I can't seem them tinkering with it much. If Latavius goes down, then it could be a 50/50 RBBC with Richard & Washington.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am not sure how accurate this is. The entire offense went in the tank for the last eight games last season not just Latavius but for some reason he is the only one people remember going into the tank.
theothervcruz
Footballguy
The post I was responding to was: " Also, Latavius is sharing with a minimum of two others. You could argue three. With Washington, it's Theo only (unless J. Bell screws all of us). "
As a Raiders fan, I know of Taiwan's existence on the team. However, given he has 1 carry through 3 games where he was active in all of them, I don't believe you can argue that Latavius is sharing anything with him aside from perhaps the air they breathe and space on the sideline when Washington/Richard are in the game.
Semantics aside, I do agree with the rest of your post though that for now Murray > Washington until the latter proves himself. I've bought tickets to the train but I'm going to need to see more before I hop on.
mikel0254
Footballguy
Bell Cow as in 3-down? Unlikely. But I will say he should get the majority of 1st, 2nd, short yard/GL carries within a few weeks.
Riddick should and will be there as the passing back. He's good in that role
Pigskin Fanatic
Footballguy
apologies, misleading statement without quoting the original question on my part. relevant conversation quoted below. and no, no one's hurt, Jones is not relevant in the RB discussion for Oakland unless all three of Murray, Richard and DeAndre Washington (Oak) were sitting for whatever reason, which is not the case.
bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
Caldwell is a moron but im not sure its his call. Some of the package calls probably fall on jimbob cooter. Theo is very poor as a natural rb. He does well as cop 3rd down receiving back. Dwayne should be the first n second down rb plus goal line short yardage. But his ppr numbers will be hurt. Tradtional td leagues he is worth a play this week
theothervcruz
Footballguy
Here is a fun question:
Kind of an AC Forum question but more so trying to gauge perception of his value.
Assuming you have 3 other viable fantasy RBs, would you drop Jonathan Stewart for Dwayne Washington?
Kind of an AC Forum question but more so trying to gauge perception of his value.
Assuming you have 3 other viable fantasy RBs, would you drop Jonathan Stewart for Dwayne Washington?
Dismattle
Footballguy
Thats one of them overthinking type questions to a degree..
Coach could have his heart set on playing Theo, #1 ranked RB for receptions.
Id check back and see what Detroit homers are figuring.. A case could be made about such things as Cam rushing for TD's.
Its mostly all just speculation mind ya.
ESPN Lions reporter Michael Rothstein said "don't be surprised" if Dwayne Washington gets more work this week against the Bears.
Coach Jim Caldwell blamed the line for Theo Riddick's struggles against the Packers, so they clearly have not given up the idea a career 3-YPC back handling the early-down work. Still, Washington was notably better as a runner against the Packers, and he should take on a bigger role soon enough. He already matched Riddick with 10 carries last week. Washington will be an upside FLEX play against the Bears.
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/342938/Dwayne-Washington-could-see-more-work
btw I havnt even mentioned the temporary status..
Abdullah could return at some point
Coach could have his heart set on playing Theo, #1 ranked RB for receptions.
Id check back and see what Detroit homers are figuring.. A case could be made about such things as Cam rushing for TD's.
Its mostly all just speculation mind ya.
ESPN Lions reporter Michael Rothstein said "don't be surprised" if Dwayne Washington gets more work this week against the Bears.
Coach Jim Caldwell blamed the line for Theo Riddick's struggles against the Packers, so they clearly have not given up the idea a career 3-YPC back handling the early-down work. Still, Washington was notably better as a runner against the Packers, and he should take on a bigger role soon enough. He already matched Riddick with 10 carries last week. Washington will be an upside FLEX play against the Bears.
http://www.rotoworld.com/headlines/nfl/342938/Dwayne-Washington-could-see-more-work
btw I havnt even mentioned the temporary status..
Abdullah could return at some point
I originally said you could argue Lativius competing with three because freaking J. Olawale actually has scored a TD as well.
Two or three...whatever. It's more than D. Washington has to share and he's got a much better matchup vs. Latavius.
I'm surprised this is even a debate.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
If I had 3 other viable fantasy RBs I'm not sure Washington would matter much on my bench anyways. We are talking about a guy who may be a RB2-3/flex/bye week fill in. I don't see Stewart as any less than that IMO. So it's a wash, maybe I'd do Washington because if more upside and less mouths to feed in Detroit vs in Carolina where it looks like a mess
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theothervcruz
Footballguy
Olawale has 1 carry in each of the 3 games and that TD came in Game 1 when Latavius got 14 carries and no one else got 5. This past game Olawale had 1 carry for 0 yards. He's not competition in any way. Anyhow no one is arguing Washington has less competition for touches than Latavius at this point. That's just common sense. Really just nitpicking you saying Latavius is competing with 3 rather than 2 because that is not a "whatever" difference.
Anyhow, I like Washington and no doubt Latavius has some red flags but this is a viable debate. If anything, "experts" are the one who thinks it isn't a debate as they heavily favor Latavius.
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theothervcruz
Footballguy
Also pretty funny that on here you say you are surprised this is even a debate but on another forum you said in the Latavius Murray thread, and I quote, "What's everyone doing with this guy? I'm debating hard Latavius vs. D. Washington"
Interseptopus
Footballguy
packer_junkie
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
So the undrafted back is more talented than the back selected No. 4 overall? Got it.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
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Bigboy10182000
Footballguy
mnmplayer
Footballguy
Odds say this is a big mistake from a talent and an opportunity measure.
37% of the snaps vs 3 down back who can also catch passes and get goal line looks and more importantly, actually *is* an effective short yardage runner.
That's like passing on a BMW in favor of a ride share plan for a "lessor" BMW for the same price.
A lot of people were giving excuses for Washington because of the game script last week in GB. Well flip the script for Howard either way and he can be productive. If they fall way behind he can catch passes in garbage time. Flip the scrip and CHI actually gets out to a lead (I know this is far-fetched) and he will be leaned on. It’s a no brainer that you should have swapped Washington for Howard, but these are just the odds talking. Anything can happen of course (just look at Terrell Pryor) and maybe you made the right move. Don't get me wrong, I actually own Washington too and see his potential, but in no way would I start him over Howard this week. Just based upon opp alone, Howard's ceiling and floor are both higher. Luckily, I need to start neither.
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
I'm not starting him. On that team I have LeVeon, McCoy, CMike, Rawls, Ware and Washington. I'm in no rush to start Washington (or would I have been to start Howard). Howard has the better opportunity at this moment, but I believe Washington will have the better situation and force the team to give him more opportunities.
werdnoynek
Footballguy
Between him and Duke Johnson, I'm torn. Might be flipping a coin come Sunday morning...
mnmplayer
Footballguy
Washington is a converted WR and pass catching is his strength, but Riddick isn't going anywhere. Washington is not a between the tackles rusher so will not fill that role which is currently vacated. Howard has all the opportunity to take over the 3 down gig ROS. He is also a more talented and polished runner.
Howard graded by some as the "best pure runner RB" in this class. Washington is not polished in his vision, ball security or leverage/power and this is probably because he is a converted WR. The fact that he is a converted WR makes you think that is a plus in PPR and it would be under normal conditions. The problem is DET already has a great 3rd down pass catching RB, so he is not going to be filling that role (he wasn't out there in their last hurry up drive vs GB). Some miscast him as a goal line, short yardage or early down back because of his size, but his vision/feel is not even average, let alone good (known for running into his blockers), neither is his footwork or his power/leverage in short space movement. He is not known for running between the tackles, more of an outside bouncer, electric guy in space. He takes long strides more closely resembling a WR. I just watched his tape from last week and he never hit any holes or would be tacklers with low pads, sapping a lot of his potential power/leverage he could have generated with his size. I counted several times where he was actually thrown backwards at the end of plays, leaving him open to fumbles/injury (other known problems).
Add to this that Washington has had durability concerns. The only thing you can say he has an advantage over Howard is his offense is better, but that doesn't mean the RB opportunities are necessarily better. Let's look at who CHI has faced so far. Are they really as bad as people are saying? In spite of the "horrid" offense, Langford has scored two goal line TDs for CHI this year. Langford isn't even a good short yardage back (Howard is much better), so there is some indication that the line had something to do with the scores. I confirmed this with the tape. This was against HOU and PHI, which are both tough rush defenses that shut down KC/PIT offenses where the "pedestrian" Langford actually outscored Ware vs HOU. We all saw what PHI did to PIT’s running game last week, holding them to 3 points. Williams had 8 rushes for 21 yards. Is CHI really that bad or did they just have two tough games vs tough D to start the season? Langford and Howard were both running effectively vs DAL.
Who has DET faced? IND (horrible), TEN (meh) & GB shut down their running game last week. I only see marginally better RB opportunities in DET under the best circumstances, and much worse opportunity under the most likely circumstances. Going with Washington over Howard you are banking on Riddick going away, and even if he did, its doubtful Washington could carry the load by himself so Zenner would come into the picture as the between the tackles, short yardage guy and Washington would be the pass catching, dynamic guy. Howard is a more talented/effective/polished runner in a better situation. I realize his page count is only 4 and this one is on page 20. That's fine, but based on opps and talent, Howard's ceiling and floor is definitely higher now and most likely into the future if he proves himself as the best back on the team over the next month.
Howard graded by some as the "best pure runner RB" in this class. Washington is not polished in his vision, ball security or leverage/power and this is probably because he is a converted WR. The fact that he is a converted WR makes you think that is a plus in PPR and it would be under normal conditions. The problem is DET already has a great 3rd down pass catching RB, so he is not going to be filling that role (he wasn't out there in their last hurry up drive vs GB). Some miscast him as a goal line, short yardage or early down back because of his size, but his vision/feel is not even average, let alone good (known for running into his blockers), neither is his footwork or his power/leverage in short space movement. He is not known for running between the tackles, more of an outside bouncer, electric guy in space. He takes long strides more closely resembling a WR. I just watched his tape from last week and he never hit any holes or would be tacklers with low pads, sapping a lot of his potential power/leverage he could have generated with his size. I counted several times where he was actually thrown backwards at the end of plays, leaving him open to fumbles/injury (other known problems).
Add to this that Washington has had durability concerns. The only thing you can say he has an advantage over Howard is his offense is better, but that doesn't mean the RB opportunities are necessarily better. Let's look at who CHI has faced so far. Are they really as bad as people are saying? In spite of the "horrid" offense, Langford has scored two goal line TDs for CHI this year. Langford isn't even a good short yardage back (Howard is much better), so there is some indication that the line had something to do with the scores. I confirmed this with the tape. This was against HOU and PHI, which are both tough rush defenses that shut down KC/PIT offenses where the "pedestrian" Langford actually outscored Ware vs HOU. We all saw what PHI did to PIT’s running game last week, holding them to 3 points. Williams had 8 rushes for 21 yards. Is CHI really that bad or did they just have two tough games vs tough D to start the season? Langford and Howard were both running effectively vs DAL.
Who has DET faced? IND (horrible), TEN (meh) & GB shut down their running game last week. I only see marginally better RB opportunities in DET under the best circumstances, and much worse opportunity under the most likely circumstances. Going with Washington over Howard you are banking on Riddick going away, and even if he did, its doubtful Washington could carry the load by himself so Zenner would come into the picture as the between the tackles, short yardage guy and Washington would be the pass catching, dynamic guy. Howard is a more talented/effective/polished runner in a better situation. I realize his page count is only 4 and this one is on page 20. That's fine, but based on opps and talent, Howard's ceiling and floor is definitely higher now and most likely into the future if he proves himself as the best back on the team over the next month.
ryno1980
Footballguy
I could see how someone would favor Washington over Howard. Personally, I'd lean toward Howard because, as pointed out in the above post, he is more experienced than Washington as a RB and looks to be a true power back.
But that said, Detroit's offense, despite GB being the only quality D they've played, is producing and looks like it will continue with JBC calling plays.
Chicago, with first-year OC, looks awful. Sure, it should get better and maybe Howard helps it get better.
One other point though is Detroit has had two running backs catch 50-plus balls apiece before. Seems like there's 90 plus receptions for RBs every single year. Maybe Riddick falls back to 60 instead of 80 receptions?
But that said, Detroit's offense, despite GB being the only quality D they've played, is producing and looks like it will continue with JBC calling plays.
Chicago, with first-year OC, looks awful. Sure, it should get better and maybe Howard helps it get better.
One other point though is Detroit has had two running backs catch 50-plus balls apiece before. Seems like there's 90 plus receptions for RBs every single year. Maybe Riddick falls back to 60 instead of 80 receptions?
theothervcruz
Footballguy
Indianapolis held Melvin Gordon to 35 rushing yards on 16 carries and CJ Anderson to 74 rushing yards on 20 carries. Indianapolis is horrible on pass defense, not rush defense.
Tennessee held Adrian Peterson to 31 rushing yards on 19 carries and Latavius Murray to 37 rushing yards on 10 carries. Tennessee has allowed 1 rushing TD all year and that was to Latavius.
Green Bay held TJ Yeldon to 39 rushing yards on 21 carries and Adrian Peterson to 19 rushing yards on 12 carries. They are the #1 rush defense in the league through 3 games and it isn't even close.
That's who Detroit has faced.
mnmplayer
Footballguy
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Moved the hit/miss frustrating as heck to own Tavon Austin for this cat in a league where I needed a RB. FIngers crossed but not counting on much more than a weak RB2 until Abdullah returns (own Abdullah in that league or might not have made the move at all)
theothervcruz
Footballguy
Posted 13 minutes ago (edited) · Report post
mnmplayer - Addressing your bolded responses to my post:
Yes Gordon got a 1 yard TD run and CJ Anderson got a 4 yard TD run. Does that totally override the fact that Gordon averaged 2.19ypc and Anderson averaged 3.7ypc? The TD is great for fantasy purposes but I was addressing your assertion that Indy is "horrible". They're not in terms of rush defense. So that the Lions were able to rush for 116 rushing yards 2 tds on 4.8ypc isn't because they faced a "horrible" run defense.
I mentioned Green Bay is the #1 rush defense and it isn't even close and your response is "Yeah GB is good"? Okay. They allow 1.8ypc. #2 is at 3.2. They allow 42.7 rushing yards per game. #2 is 71. It's just 3 games but saying they are "good" is an obvious understatement.
As far as Houston and Philly being good too, what does that have to do with anything? You were asking who Detroit has faced and that was what I was addressing. They haven't faced either of these teams. BTW Houston ranks 26th in rushing yards allowed per game and 29th in ypc. Not sure ranking 7th worst and 4th worst in those two categories makes you a good run defense.
mnmplayer - Addressing your bolded responses to my post:
Yes Gordon got a 1 yard TD run and CJ Anderson got a 4 yard TD run. Does that totally override the fact that Gordon averaged 2.19ypc and Anderson averaged 3.7ypc? The TD is great for fantasy purposes but I was addressing your assertion that Indy is "horrible". They're not in terms of rush defense. So that the Lions were able to rush for 116 rushing yards 2 tds on 4.8ypc isn't because they faced a "horrible" run defense.
I mentioned Green Bay is the #1 rush defense and it isn't even close and your response is "Yeah GB is good"? Okay. They allow 1.8ypc. #2 is at 3.2. They allow 42.7 rushing yards per game. #2 is 71. It's just 3 games but saying they are "good" is an obvious understatement.
As far as Houston and Philly being good too, what does that have to do with anything? You were asking who Detroit has faced and that was what I was addressing. They haven't faced either of these teams. BTW Houston ranks 26th in rushing yards allowed per game and 29th in ypc. Not sure ranking 7th worst and 4th worst in those two categories makes you a good run defense.
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GB run D is absolutely lights out.
Which makes D. Washington's 10 carries for 38 yards pretty damn impressive.
Meanwhile, Riddick went 10-9, AP went 12-19 (and all rushers went 22-30), and Yeldon 21-39.
theothervcruz
Footballguy
I guess you didn't bother reading the part of my post where I said "The TD is great for fantasy purposes"
If you think Indy is "horrible" in rush defense because they gave up a 1 yard TD run and a 4 yard TD run and want to completely ignore holding two solid RBs in Gordon and Anderson to 2.19ypc and 3.7ypc, then that's your deal.
Chaka
Footballguy
TDs are highly fungible and not really a very good basis on which to judge the quality of rush defense.
mnmplayer
Footballguy
True, I agree with this ... My point that PHI shut down PITs offense and HOU shut down KCs offense holds true in that they might have made CHI offense look worse than they are since thyey faced them both and did ok vs DAL. I also stand by my comments on passing Howard for Washington as a mistake. I should have just left it at that. I don't really want to debate TEN/IND/GB defenses in this thread.
Chaka
Footballguy
I am also not a fan of using total yards as a gauge of the quality of run defense as it can be easily skewed by points (e.g. the highest scoring teams tend to have lower rushing yardage totals against them because opponents run less). In this case Phili is currently the 2nd highest scoring team in the league (30.7 ppg), which is reflected in their giving up the 2nd fewest total yards rushing. Houston is last in scoring and 26th in total rushing yards allowed.
I think YPC is a more fair benchmark as it is score independent (although likely impacted by rushing attempts which, again, favors higher scoring teams) and by that metric Phi is 21st at 4.3 YPC while Hou is 29th giving up 4.8 YPC. GB is #1 with 1.8 YPC and Indy is middle of the pack (15th) at 4.0 YPC, tied with Chicago in that metric.
Neither Houston or Philadelphia have been very good rushing defenses so far.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
Howard is a way better play this week
Tommy Collins
Footballguy
We have watched different tape on Washington then.mnmplayer said:
creepythinman
Footballguy
What does draft spot matter when it comes to actual talent?Dr. Octopus said:
Being drafted 196th overall didn't stop Terrell Davis from being the best RB during his run.
Being drafted 86th overall didn't stop David Johnson from becoming the most gifted RB in football (although amazingly the Cardinals would have preferred Amer Abdullah on draft day), only in competition with Le'Veon Bell who was drafted 48th overall.
So, Elliot was drafted 4th overall, great for him. The only reason that I care about that now is that it put him on a team with a great O-line, and that the Dallas franchise has invested substantial equity to keep spoon feeding him, to forgive his 2-fumble games like vs. the Redskins. But to my admittedly amateur eyes, Elliot just seems like an above average RB. He looked above-average in Ohio State, the hype machine got rolling, and he's looked just OK in the NFL. It took 30 carries to get to 140yds vs a Chicago team that had given up. And it looks like he's already given up some of the GL work to Alfred Morris. And I haven't seen much of this great receiving ability he is supposed to have. Pedigree doesn't mean a damn thing to be once the ball is snapped.
But the lowly 236th overall Dwayne Washington just pops off the film whenever I watch him. He break ankles and he runs through people. He is just one of those guys who I feel can score from anywhere on any touch--the same feeling I had when watching David Johnson last year before he finally got his opportunity and when Bruce Arians finally got over regretting that he missed out on drafting Amer Abdullah. Give Washington the ball 30 times, use him in the passing game like he is capable of, forgive the occasional fumble, and I have faith he will prove to be the monster I believe him to be. But Jim Caldwell might be the single most moronic person in football so my hopes could very easily be crushed.
Might be wrong, I often am. But when R.C. Fischer, someone who 32 NFL teams should be backing up Brinks Trucks for to get them in their front office, called Dwayne Washington the most talented RB in the 2016 NFL Draft...I listen. Just like I listed to him when he called David Johnson the most talented RB in the 2015 NFL Draft, which is why I had him rostered the whole year...and won my league. Rinse. Repeat.
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
It doesn't it's just funny when people say so as a matter of factly that their guy would getn200 yards behind a certain offensive line. You're completely wrong. Yes Washington is good but to say he's better than Elliott when he's had only a handful of carries in the nfl is absurd. We honestly won't know who is the better rb for 2 or 3 years.
You're telling me if someone offered your Elliot for Washington you'd say no?
mnmplayer
Footballguy
I don't subscribe to FFmetrics, but does R.C. Fischer have Washington ranked above Howard this week? What about ROS? It would be interesting to know his take. http://www.fantasyfootballmetrics.com/weekly/index.php
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Interseptopus
Footballguy
I'd also be interested to see his qb, rb, wr rankings from 2014. You can cherry pick examples to make your point but chances are this guy is wrong just as often as he is right
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creepythinman
Footballguy
If they were trading me the Dallas defense and offensive line as well. Sure.
Elliot obviously is in the better situation and has the commitment from the coaches/front office. But situation does not beget talent.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
creepythinman
Footballguy
Straw man. So I'll answer with another straw man: Why didn't the Patriots draft Tom Brady before the 6th Round?
creepythinman
Footballguy
R.C. has Washington and Howard both in the top 12, Washington on top for this week. He doesn't do yearly rankings, but from his write-ups, he considers Howard to above average and were advising owners to pick him up last week even before Langford's injury. But due to Chicago being the suck, he is saying that Howard should be a sell-high.
Whereas with Washington, he considers him to be the game-changer for the year.
Interseptopus
Footballguy
I'd argue that it's Belichick's genius that has made Brady. Just look at Cassell and the fact they can likely bring in your neighborhood paper boy to start this weekend and probably make him look like a pro bowler.
I don't know why teams draft the way they do. I think many players have success because of their situation and they are all talented athletes. You're talking about, roughly, the top 200 college football players on how many teams? They're all talented
What you're saying is because this guy got one rb right in 2015 what he says is gospel and every nfl owner should be falling over themselves to hire him. So if you're an NFL owner you would believe what he says is truth and would value Washington as the top rb and draft him accordingly in the first round.
As I said above, the guy probably gets just as many wrong as right. You're cherry picking one rb that he got right one year and saying because you hold him in high regard, and because he got Johnson right he's got Washington right.
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gethugefast1
Footballguy
started reading a page back, noticed going Wash vs How. If both sides can agree, they're both talented enough to succeed at NFL level. I would lean towards the one with a healthy, fantasy producing QB. IMOask yourself, what will the score be this week, TDs, even in ppr leagues, are precious pts. which rb, has the opportunity to score more TDs? i don't own either, but Wash is the one i would want this week.
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creepythinman
Footballguy
Ignoring your statement that Tom Brady is JAG.
R.C. Fisher's college metrics system as well as his "The Machine" partnered with Advanced Sports Logic is being used by at least a few NFL teams that I know of. He grades football talent starting in College and then all throughout their NFL careers. His algorithm includes physical ability, mechanics as well as intangibles. But I don't work for the guy and frankly I'm thrilled he's not well known and my league mates don't know of him, because all he does is make me $$$ every year. But what his system is able to expose are guys from smaller schools who don't the press or hype but possess as much if not more talent as the top tier guys.
I don't subscribe to his college metrics system, but the 2 guys he was espousing before the preseason began as "jewels" and future stars were Dwayne Washington and Tyrell Williams. And going into the season, the one guy he was advising everyone to reach for was Stephon Diggs, who considered to be the best "next-Antonio Brown." If only Teddy B hadn't gotten injured and I had listened instead of getting scared off and drafting Allen Hurns.
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