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***OFFICIAL GUN CONTROL DEBATE*** (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter ATC1
- Start date
Rayderr
Footballguy
Wouldn't it be the person or person's family? I'm sure if you saw your son started acting irrationally (like Loughner), you'd want him to get some counseling.'Sweet Feet said:a lot of different opinions on diagnosing someone and who's footing all of these bills?'Rayderr said:
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
People have to jump through hoops (for safety) to get hunting licenses too.so basically a person goes to a shrink several times (being modest) @ 100's a pop to get cleared to buy a 200-500 $ gun? Then Im guessing will have to do this all over again just to be say to buy any additional gun? Sounds expensive and like any Dr. you're going to have different opinions. Also, who determines what Dr.'s are certified to clear people that want firearms? The government just cut the mental health fund by what 80-90%?'BigSteelThrill said:Gun owners.'Sweet Feet said:a lot of different opinions on diagnosing someone and who's footing all of these bills?'Rayderr said:
All of these are nice ideas but its going to come down to tax payer rates being increased to fund all of this. I have no issue either way but are non gun owners and or gun owners both going to sign off on something like this?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
That's the conservative movement you are talking about bub!
Rayderr
Footballguy
Potential threat = i.e. sending nonsensical rantings to a politician, obvious signs of mental illness...No threat = i.e. ????'Matthias said:
btw, my idea would've stopped Cho.
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
Correct...The ban only applied to weapons manufactured after the date of the ban's enactment.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
sure but how many Dr.'s and time would it take to pin point the problem or find someone he was comfortable talking with before he went off? Very subjective but I hear what you're saying. Budget cuts for mental health were slashed to non existent so what do you think about the parents who see a problem with a child but cannot afford counseling or at least a counselor worth a _____?Wouldn't it be the person or person's family? I'm sure if you saw your son started acting irrationally (like Loughner), you'd want him to get some counseling.'Sweet Feet said:a lot of different opinions on diagnosing someone and who's footing all of these bills?'Rayderr said:
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Insoxicated
If you guys think "mental health" checkups would be any more than formalities, you might need to drop in for one yourself.
I was interviewed by an FBI special agent yesterday as part of a vetting process for a buddy who's getting Top Secret clearance.... Even THAT was a joke.
"Do you have any reason to doubt Brian's allegiance to the US?"
"Yes.... WAIT! NO! ####... You caught him."
I was interviewed by an FBI special agent yesterday as part of a vetting process for a buddy who's getting Top Secret clearance.... Even THAT was a joke.
"Do you have any reason to doubt Brian's allegiance to the US?"
"Yes.... WAIT! NO! ####... You caught him."
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parasaurolophus
Footballguy
She probably had lots of background information provided from the academy. There were probably tests that the officers had taken that provided data also. So lets not pretend that it would be easy for a shrink to sit down with a total stranger and come up with even close to an accurate profile in an hour.I like the idea of a no-gun list much better.'Matthias said:'Rayderr said:Less time than you think. One of my wife's classmates used to work for the NYPD and one of her primary responsibilities was screening cops on whether or not they could carry. I don't think she spent weeks on any one person.ETA: Although now you're moving the goalposts. I was answering on whether or not they could be certified. You moved it to some ####### impossible standard.Enjoy your Sunday.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Remember when there was outrage over an XFL team being named the maniacs?
Interested in thoughts from both sides concerning making all handgun owners obtain conceal carry certification. Not sure if this national or state wide, but here you go through a more through backgrond check and have to take a class to get that permit.
parasaurolophus
Footballguy
Especially if they had long term interaction with them. It would be a much more qualified judgment.
Rayderr
Footballguy
I think a gun safety class should be required for anyone that's buying their first gun. I'm not sure why gun owners wouldn't want to take one anyway. If you're going to buy a car, you want to learn how to drive it first.
NC Conceal Carry Information
Issuing Authority:
Sheriff of the permittee’s county of residence
Out Of State Permit Issue:
North Carolina does not issue permits to non-permanent residents. In order to obtain a permit you must establish permanent residency in North Carolina.
NICS check:
Yes, a background check is done through the local Sheriff’s office.
Permit Valid For:
5 years from the date of issuance
Cost:
$80.00 non-refundable permit fee and an additional fee not to exceed $10.00 to pay for the costs of processing the applicant’s fingerprints.
$75 renewal fee
Requirements:
The sheriff shall issue a permit within 90 days after receipt of a complete application to an applicant who:
• is a citizen of the U.S. and has been a resident of the State for at least 30 days immediately prior to filing the application;
• is at least 21;
• does not suffer from a physical or mental infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a handgun;
• has successfully completed an approved firearms safety and training course which involves the actual firing of handguns and instruction in the law governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and the use of deadly force;
• is not ineligible under federal or state law to possess, receive, or own a firearm;
• is not currently or has not been adjudicated or administratively determined to be lacking mental capacity or mentally ill;
• has not been discharged from the armed forces under conditions other than honorable;
• is or has not been adjudicated guilty or judgment continued or suspended sentence for a violent misdemeanor;
• has not had judgment continued for or free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a disqualifying criminal offense;
• has not been convicted of an impaired driving offense within three years prior to the date on which the application is submitted.
Required Documents:
Application completed under oath on a form provided by the sheriff
Full set of fingerprints administered by the sheriff
An original certificate of completion of an approved safety course
A release that authorized and requires disclosure to the sheriff of any records concerning the mental health of capacity of the appliant
Renewal Information:
The permit holder shall apply to renew the permit at least 30 days prior to its expiration date by filing a renewal form, a notarized affidavit stating that the permit holder remains qualified, a full set of fingerprints and a $75.00 renewal fee.
Change of Address:
The permit holder shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of any change in the permanent address within 30 days.
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
The permit holder must carry the permit, together with valid identification, whenever carrying a concealed handgun, and is required to disclose to any law enforcement officer who addresses or approaches the permit holder that he or she is a permit holder and is carrying a concealed handgun.
Automobile carry:
You MAY open carry in a motor vehicle. However, localities may regulate the carrying of firearms under certain circumstances.
Places off-limits when carrying:
• Any location prohibited by federal law.
• A law enforcement of correctional facility.
• A building housing only state, federal or government offices.
• A financial institution.
• Any public or private school building or bus, campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic fields or other property used or owned by an edicational institution.
• Any assembly where a fee had been charged for admission or where alcoholic beverages are sold and comsumed.
• Any other premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.
• It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated
with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any public place owned or under the control of the state or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any firearm.
Alcohol and Drugs:
It is unlawful to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has remaining in his body any alcohol or in his blood a controlled substance previously consumed. (There is an exception if the controlled substance was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts.)
Issuing Authority:
Sheriff of the permittee’s county of residence
Out Of State Permit Issue:
North Carolina does not issue permits to non-permanent residents. In order to obtain a permit you must establish permanent residency in North Carolina.
NICS check:
Yes, a background check is done through the local Sheriff’s office.
Permit Valid For:
5 years from the date of issuance
Cost:
$80.00 non-refundable permit fee and an additional fee not to exceed $10.00 to pay for the costs of processing the applicant’s fingerprints.
$75 renewal fee
Requirements:
The sheriff shall issue a permit within 90 days after receipt of a complete application to an applicant who:
• is a citizen of the U.S. and has been a resident of the State for at least 30 days immediately prior to filing the application;
• is at least 21;
• does not suffer from a physical or mental infirmity that prevents the safe handling of a handgun;
• has successfully completed an approved firearms safety and training course which involves the actual firing of handguns and instruction in the law governing the carrying of a concealed handgun and the use of deadly force;
• is not ineligible under federal or state law to possess, receive, or own a firearm;
• is not currently or has not been adjudicated or administratively determined to be lacking mental capacity or mentally ill;
• has not been discharged from the armed forces under conditions other than honorable;
• is or has not been adjudicated guilty or judgment continued or suspended sentence for a violent misdemeanor;
• has not had judgment continued for or free on bond or personal recognizance pending trial, appeal, or sentencing for a disqualifying criminal offense;
• has not been convicted of an impaired driving offense within three years prior to the date on which the application is submitted.
Required Documents:
Application completed under oath on a form provided by the sheriff
Full set of fingerprints administered by the sheriff
An original certificate of completion of an approved safety course
A release that authorized and requires disclosure to the sheriff of any records concerning the mental health of capacity of the appliant
Renewal Information:
The permit holder shall apply to renew the permit at least 30 days prior to its expiration date by filing a renewal form, a notarized affidavit stating that the permit holder remains qualified, a full set of fingerprints and a $75.00 renewal fee.
Change of Address:
The permit holder shall notify the sheriff who issued the permit of any change in the permanent address within 30 days.
Informing Law Enforcement of Carry:
The permit holder must carry the permit, together with valid identification, whenever carrying a concealed handgun, and is required to disclose to any law enforcement officer who addresses or approaches the permit holder that he or she is a permit holder and is carrying a concealed handgun.
Automobile carry:
You MAY open carry in a motor vehicle. However, localities may regulate the carrying of firearms under certain circumstances.
Places off-limits when carrying:
• Any location prohibited by federal law.
• A law enforcement of correctional facility.
• A building housing only state, federal or government offices.
• A financial institution.
• Any public or private school building or bus, campus, grounds, recreation area, athletic fields or other property used or owned by an edicational institution.
• Any assembly where a fee had been charged for admission or where alcoholic beverages are sold and comsumed.
• Any other premises where notice that carrying a concealed handgun is prohibited by the posting of a conspicuous notice or statement by the person in legal possession or control of the premises.
• It shall be unlawful for any person participating in, affiliated
with, or present as a spectator at any parade, funeral procession, picket line, or demonstration upon any public place owned or under the control of the state or any of its political subdivisions to willfully or intentionally possess or have immediate access to any firearm.
Alcohol and Drugs:
It is unlawful to carry a concealed handgun while consuming alcohol or at any time while the person has remaining in his body any alcohol or in his blood a controlled substance previously consumed. (There is an exception if the controlled substance was lawfully obtained and taken in therapeutically appropriate amounts.)
Wait, the conservative movement is the one that's for "everyone gets a trophy" and "everyone is normal, just 'different'"? Sorry, I must have missed that memo. I'm not saying that liberals are the ones necessarily pushing those concepts, but it's certainly not "the conservative movement".
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Insoxicated
As someone who has my CC permit, I'd support this. Ideally it would make more folks comfortable (and qualified) to carry on the streets.
Some of the arguments may be strawmen, but even you have to admit that in this thread, at least, the percentage of off-the-deep-end, overly emotional, "OMG haxxor" style posters using name-calling tactics and fallacious arguments is highly tilted in favor of the anti-gun crowd. Most (not all) of the "gun rights" posters, for lack of a better term, are engaging in actual debate and have shown that they're more than willing to discuss rational proposals.'Matthias said:
ATC1
Footballguy
I would have to see about what the self defense class includes. It should go over situations and simulations as well as legal matters. Also, as I pointed out before. For the law abiding citizen and their right to carry. Why do we have to restrict where they carry? It just seems to me it gives the opportunity for a criminal to choose these locations and in fact most of these mass shootings occur in gun free zones.
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I've found that a very interesting trend. That said, most of the far right on this board hasn't checked in yet so you may be early.Read a stat yesterday that gun ownership was 40% Dem and 55% Rep (not sure where the other 5% went...Green Party?) I suspect most of that Dem 40% is on the moderate side and that a good percentage of the far right Christians Reps don't own guns.
Depending on the context, that statistic could mean that 40% of Dems are gun owners and 55% of Reps are gun owners? There would be no missing 5% if that's the case. Seems awfully high, though, if that's what they meant.
You could be correct. I found a Gallup poll yesterday stating reported ownership at 47%, up from 41% 10 years ago. They did add that it may not have increased that much, just that people might be more comfortable admitting to ownership.
kerpow
Footballguy
Thanks for educating me about the types of guns available in America. I found this particular interesting:
That said, as a foreigner, giving citizens the right to arm themselves is as alien as permitting drink driving or the widespread sale of all harmful substances. These laws exist to prevent people from killing themselves or others. I hope that one day America comes to realise that.
That said, as a foreigner, giving citizens the right to arm themselves is as alien as permitting drink driving or the widespread sale of all harmful substances. These laws exist to prevent people from killing themselves or others. I hope that one day America comes to realise that.
ATC1
Footballguy
Would they want an armed police officer in the school, movie theater, ect. if they could? If I don't have any mental illness, no history of any violence or drug related charge, go through such training as a police officer, what is the difference? The only difference I see is that there could be an increased number of those type of people within the location and a criminal will not be able to avoid them.'Matthias said:
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
As others have noted, there are other countries out there that have gun ownership rates much higher than the United States. Obviously your country isn't one of them, but the US is not alone in letting its citizens own guns.
Mr.Pack
Footballguy
i agree 100%. I will add though, that assault type weapons should be banned from the public owning them and that background checks should be more thorough.'Cliff Clavin said:Oh relax, it isn't meant to be funny. It is what everyone in this thread is doing. Rallying against guns instead of focusing on the actual issue: mentally disturbed individuals who do these types of things.'Ursa M said:Good lord.'Cliff Clavin said:
About all you can do.
We've closed most mental health hospitals and long term facilities. The burden of dealing with the mentally ill long term is on the family, or the prison system. We're effectively using the prison system as the predominant means of "treating" the mentally ill.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
curious to see if the people who feel so strongly commenting here will actually do something about it by writing their congressman or actively voicing ideas to others outside of this forum
ATC1
Footballguy
Don't know how it will be anything like the OK corral or the old west. We have much needed stricter gun laws at this time then back then. Have you taken a gun safety class or a self defense class? There is a huge difference. If you had a gun in those instances and took a self defense class, you may have decided not to pull your weapon in those instances you have experienced. As to the stories you hear. Any of them involve a person that has a concealed carry permit? I agree with you. The number of those that are allowed to own guns should be less. However, the restrictions placed on those who can own and Cary them should be less. Result? Less guns and more correct people carrying them.'Matthias said:
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timschochet
Footballguy
Before anything else, it seems to me that the first thing we need to have is a national database of ALL firearms in this country and who owns them. Law enforcement has been trying to get this for years, but the NRA has always fought it. It is currently impossible to make such a database because of the private weapons loophole ("gun show loophole") which allows for private sales and transfers to go unrecorded. This loophole has got to be eliminated.
ATC1
Footballguy
That is a pretty dumb statement that I will have to agree with. How about this statement though. Those who know how to use guns correctly are more likely to use them correctly or they should be allowed to have them.
jonessed
Footballguy
Taxpayers would end up with the bill. That really shouldn't be a problem though given the apparent desire for a solutionThere would have to be a pretty robust appeal process as well.'Sweet Feet said:a lot of different opinions on diagnosing someone and who's footing all of these bills?'Rayderr said:
Otis
Footballguy
I suspect this is a lot more prevalent than the gun guys are willing to admit.
Rayderr
Footballguy
I pointed out earlier in this thread that if we assume that every shooting (intentional, accidental, suicide) is done by a separate person (which we know is not the case) that works out to only .1% of the households with guns being involved in a shooting. So yeah, I'd say responsible gun owners far outweigh the irresponsible ones.
Otis
Footballguy
This is some of the worst, baseless, conclusory "analysis" I've ever seen on the internet.So you conclude that if an accident hasn't happened yet in a given household with guns, then it's a "responsible" household?
What a waste of time this thread is for all of us.
Otis
Footballguy
My other close encounter with guns was when I was a teenager. I won't bore with the details, but suffice it to say we were at a friend's house, parents weren't around, dad kept an unloaded handgun in a shoebox in his closet, and friend's younger brother knew where the gun was. He went and got it. He ran around the house pointing the unloaded gun at us and pulling the trigger. We asked him to stop. It make me really uncomfortable. He then grabbed the clip. Put it into the gun. Cocked it. Took the clip out. He didn't know there was a bullet in the chamber. He aimed it a foot over the head of a kid sitting below him on the steps and pulled the trigger.
The entry hole on this side of the living room wall was small. We walk around to the other side and there is an enormous hole in the dining room wall.
Nobody was hurt, and so this was never reported. So, since there was no accident, clearly this was another responsible gun-owning household.
The entry hole on this side of the living room wall was small. We walk around to the other side and there is an enormous hole in the dining room wall.
Nobody was hurt, and so this was never reported. So, since there was no accident, clearly this was another responsible gun-owning household.
Sweet Feet
Footballguy
sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture 
Rayderr
Footballguy
Well, that seems to be better than your theory of just assuming that people are irresponsible.
Otis
Footballguy
Culture is fine. A pet hog is cool. Southern grub is great. I hate country music but I can get that others like it. But I draw the line when a family of 12 is outside shooting an arsenal of deadly and irresponsibly-stored weapons in a field for fun. These are the people who are getting in the way of taking guns out of homes like Mrs. Lanza's, all because they like their rootin' tootin' fun after Thanksgiving dinner.This isn't about culture.sorry Otis but you just come off like a condescending ####### with a narrow minded view of others culture
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Seriously? I can't recall ever being that worked up, and you seem like a pretty even-tempered guy too.'Matthias said:
Otis
Footballguy
I'm also not making conclusory statements about what portion of the gun owning population is responsible vs. irresponsible. You are. My point is it takes exactly one irresponsible household to result in the deaths of 20 small children. And I'm pretty sure there's a lot more than one irresponsible household in this country. And the sad part is that these guns don't just impact that irresponsible household -- they result in the killing of the neighbors' kids. And that's the most screwed up part about this all.It's every bit as bad as drunk drivers. Why should I and my family have to live with the risks introduced by the bad decisions of others?
God Bless America
