Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (9 Viewers)

[Johnnymac]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

Yeah, it's that shallow. Everyone should just forget all of the two decades or more of shady #### that happens with the Clintons and focus on the "D" beside their name.

Do they have more shady #### than other politicians?

Yes or at least than most others.

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

 

[MaxThreshold]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

Yeah, it's that shallow. Everyone should just forget all of the two decades or more of shady #### that happens with the Clintons and focus on the "D" beside their name.

Do they have more shady #### than other politicians?

Yes or at least than most others.

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

Why? Does that make the Clinton's #### any less dirty? Or is this the "they did it too" defense of the Clintons?

Isn't this the type of dirty #### the Democrats rail against time and again? I thought they were supposed to be better than that.

 

[squistion]

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

And with all of this supposed illegality and wrongdoing, Hillary has never been charged with violating even one minor statute or law. Nothing, no charges ever, just accusations from the right. Ken Starr spent over $40 million of your taxpayers dollars as a special prosecutor and found zilch.

You would think, if indeed she is guilty of all this corruption there would have been one prosecutor or one DA who have brought at least one charge against for her something in the last 30 years. Yet, they still have nothing.

 

[Johnnymac]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

Yeah, it's that shallow. Everyone should just forget all of the two decades or more of shady #### that happens with the Clintons and focus on the "D" beside their name.

Do they have more shady #### than other politicians?

Yes or at least than most others.

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

Why? Does that make the Clinton's #### any less dirty? Or is this the "they did it too" defense of the Clintons?

Isn't this the type of dirty #### the Democrats rail against time and again? I thought they were supposed to be better than that.

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

 

[Johnnymac]

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

And with all of this supposed illegality and wrongdoing, Hillary has never been charged with violating even one minor statute or law. Nothing, no charges ever, just accusations from the right. Ken Starr spent over $40 million of your taxpayers dollars as a special prosecutor and found zilch.

You would think, if indeed she is guilty of all this corruption there would have been one prosecutor or one DA who have brought at least one charge against for her something in the last 30 years. Yet, they still have nothing.

Kenneth Starr should have been prosecuted for the lives he ruined during that whole fiasco. He holds a place right below pond scum in my book.

 

[MaxThreshold]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

Yeah, it's that shallow. Everyone should just forget all of the two decades or more of shady #### that happens with the Clintons and focus on the "D" beside their name.

Do they have more shady #### than other politicians?

Yes or at least than most others.

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

Why? Does that make the Clinton's #### any less dirty? Or is this the "they did it too" defense of the Clintons?

Isn't this the type of dirty #### the Democrats rail against time and again? I thought they were supposed to be better than that.

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

 

[Johnnymac]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

Yeah, it's that shallow. Everyone should just forget all of the two decades or more of shady #### that happens with the Clintons and focus on the "D" beside their name.

Do they have more shady #### than other politicians?

Yes or at least than most others.

I don't know if any other politicians (other than Obama) have faced even half of the scrutiny that the Clinton's have. I just wonder what we would find if all of them had to face such scrutiny.

Why? Does that make the Clinton's #### any less dirty? Or is this the "they did it too" defense of the Clintons?

Isn't this the type of dirty #### the Democrats rail against time and again? I thought they were supposed to be better than that.

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

Ok I will concede that they have a skeleton in the closet, hell who doesn't, politician or not. Again, what have they been found guilty of doing?

 

[squistion]

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

Once again, please list all the charges that any prosecutor has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

 

[Johnnymac]

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

Once again, please list all the charges that any prosecutor has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

He knows there aren't any. I would think no matter how smart the Clinton's are, somebody would have dug up something to charge him/her with. Oh, forgot about the blow job....yeah, that was a huge crime.

 

[chauncey]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

No. And it's not Bill either. For Hillary and Obama, there is a level of hatred among conservatives that is unsurpassed in my lifetime, IMO.

Were you in a coma from 2000-2008?

 

[MaxThreshold]

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

Once again, please list all the charges that any prosecutor has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

He knows there aren't any. I would think no matter how smart the Clinton's are, somebody would have dug up something to charge him/her with. Oh, forgot about the blow job....yeah, that was a huge crime.

We're going to ignore ALL of the smoke with the Clintons and assume there is no fire at all - because they haven't been charged?

So, just to clarify, the standard that you're proposing in your defense of the Clintons that if someone is dirty then they must be in jail or charged? I just want to be sure that's what you're saying, because the next time you call someone dirty or shady on the Conservative side (say, for example, **** Cheney) then I will expect you to ONLY make that charge if they are, actually, in jail (or charged). Otherwise, they assumed to be Angels on high just like you're portraying the Clintons (they must be since, y'know, they aren't charged with anything).

 

[squistion]

We're going to ignore ALL of the smoke with the Clintons and assume there is no fire at all - because they haven't been charged?

Yes!

 

[BassNBrew]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

 

[timschochet]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true. On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

 

[jon_mx]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

no matter how many times Tim make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.

 

[timschochet]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

no matter how many times Tim make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.

Except that I can offer specific examples: immigration. Climate change. Campaign reform. Black/white relations. Taxation. Health care. Education. Trade. On each of these issues, Hillary has expressly promoted ideas to the left of Barack Obama.

 

[timschochet]

And as far as challenging Obama being centrist, Jon, I challenge you to list Obama's progressive achievements as President. Go.

 

[jon_mx]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

no matter how many times Tim make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.

Except that I can offer specific examples: immigration. Climate change. Campaign reform. Black/white relations. Taxation. Health care. Education. Trade.On each of these issues, Hillary has expressly promoted ideas to the left of Barack Obama.

I am not questioning the part where Hillary might be to the left of Obama on stated positions (of course stated positions of a candidate and positions they are capable of implimented are two different things). Obama has governed as far left as feasibly possible. It is the position of president which forces moderation in actual policy. Obama is not a centrists by any measurement, except maybe from your viewpoint which is pretty far left on most issues. Obama would love to do leftist immigration reform, or climate change, or progressive taxation, etc. It is just not feasible especially now that Dems have lost control of the legistature

 

[jon_mx]

And as far as challenging Obama being centrist, Jon, I challenge you to list Obama's progressive achievements as President. Go.

The stimilus was almost exclusively targeted towards lower-income/working class folks and that was $831 billion, so that was a progressive achievement. His health care reform was fairly progressive, although not what ultra-progressive wing would have liked. Obama's justice department has been very sympathetic and has sided with blacks in all the battles with police/neighborhood watch/business. The EPA has declared CO2 a pollutant and has started to regulate it, although it is really no more of a pollutant than is Oxygen. Obama has been been successul at killing portions of the coal business. Obama has promoted gay rights. And Obama has successfully reloaded the Supreme Court with very progressive justices. He probably only shifted the court slightly to the left, but he replaced some dinosaurs with youthful justices who will ensure the courts progressive wing will remain strong.

 

[timschochet]

OK.

I agree about the Supreme Court, though not your slant. The rest is amazingly wrong.

 

[Johnnymac]

Just what exactly have the Clinton's been found guilty of doing? Seriously, I really don't know what shady stuff they have done. I know they have been accused of lots of stuff.

I know you don't "know", but that's because you're in the tank for the Clintons and refuse to look at anything - not because it's not out there.

Once again, please list all the charges that any prosecutor has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

He knows there aren't any. I would think no matter how smart the Clinton's are, somebody would have dug up something to charge him/her with. Oh, forgot about the blow job....yeah, that was a huge crime.

We're going to ignore ALL of the smoke with the Clintons and assume there is no fire at all - because they haven't been charged?

So, just to clarify, the standard that you're proposing in your defense of the Clintons that if someone is dirty then they must be in jail or charged? I just want to be sure that's what you're saying, because the next time you call someone dirty or shady on the Conservative side (say, for example, **** Cheney) then I will expect you to ONLY make that charge if they are, actually, in jail (or charged). Otherwise, they assumed to be Angels on high just like you're portraying the Clintons (they must be since, y'know, they aren't charged with anything).

I already said a few posts back that I would concede they probably have a skeleton in the closet. I think most politicians do, goes with the territory. The difference here is that the right just won't let it be.

 

[Slapdash]

Obama campaigned as a moderate and has governed as such.

He didn't campaign as a moderate.

 

[The Commish]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

Fractions of a percentage "to the left"....to the point that it's not even worth making the distinction, but somehow Obama has become the tilting point, which is pretty funny.

 

[tom22406]

I'm sure Tim already has one of these but just in case he doesn't here's the link for it.

https://shop.hillaryclinton.com/products/i-3-hillary-tumblr

 

[GroveDiesel]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

No. And it's not Bill either. For Hillary and Obama, there is a level of hatred among conservatives that is unsurpassed in my lifetime, IMO.

This just simply isn't true. Bill is a total scumbag. He's just not in power anymore so the focus isn't going to be OK him. But he is loathed by many conservatives. He was a womaniser that used his power and position to take advantage of young women. He is a liar of the first degree. He rented out the Lincoln Bedroom, sold off pardons, has a lust for power and flew all over the world with his buddy who had underage prostitutes on his jet.

The really question is, why does anyone actually LIKE Hillary? Her biggest accomplishments seem to be being married to Bill and getting out of scandal after scandal.

 

[Slapdash]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

No. And it's not Bill either. For Hillary and Obama, there is a level of hatred among conservatives that is unsurpassed in my lifetime, IMO.

This just simply isn't true. Bill is a total scumbag. He's just not in power anymore so the focus isn't going to be OK him. But he is loathed by many conservatives. He was a womaniser that used his power and position to take advantage of young women. He is a liar of the first degree. He rented out the Lincoln Bedroom, sold off pardons, has a lust for power and flew all over the world with his buddy who had underage prostitutes on his jet.

The really question is, why does anyone actually LIKE Hillary? Her biggest accomplishments seem to be being married to Bill and getting out of scandal after scandal.

Gotta link for that one? Just curious. There is enough to dislike about his policies and I don't really pay attention to this personal stuff. Thanks.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

This thread is a perfect example of how people are obsessed with the Clinton's. You have the absolute hatred on one side and the love on the other side. What I don't understand is the hatred. I mean, people just absolutely HATE the Clinton's. Why?

They have a "D" beside of their name?

No. And it's not Bill either. For Hillary and Obama, there is a level of hatred among conservatives that is unsurpassed in my lifetime, IMO.

This just simply isn't true. Bill is a total scumbag. He's just not in power anymore so the focus isn't going to be OK him. But he is loathed by many conservatives. He was a womaniser that used his power and position to take advantage of young women. He is a liar of the first degree. He rented out the Lincoln Bedroom, sold off pardons, has a lust for power and flew all over the world with his buddy who had underage prostitutes on his jet.

The really question is, why does anyone actually LIKE Hillary? Her biggest accomplishments seem to be being married to Bill and getting out of scandal after scandal.

Gotta link for that one? Just curious. There is enough to dislike about his policies and I don't really pay attention to this personal stuff. Thanks.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2922773/Newly-released-flight-logs-reveal-time-trips-Bill-Clinton-Harvard-law-professor-Alan-Dershowitz-took-pedophile-Jeffrey-Epstein-s-Lolita-Express-private-jet-anonymous-women.html

http://nypost.com/2015/02/14/bill-clintons-libido-threatens-to-derail-hillary-again/

 

[timschochet]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

 

[Slapdash]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

 

[timschochet]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

Ive already listed them several times in this thread.

 

[shadrap]

"Brilliant attorney" is one of them.

(chuckling)

 

[Slapdash]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

Ive already listed them several times in this thread.

Benghazi?

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

Ive already listed them several times in this thread.

Her signature achievement as Secretary of State was leading the charge and successfully removing Gadhafi, I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

 

[Rove!]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

look at how the Arab Spring has progressed since she became SoS

 

[timschochet]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

Ive already listed them several times in this thread.

Her signature achievement as Secretary of State was leading the charge and successfully removing Gadhafi, I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

I think her handling of Arab Soring, as a whole issue, was one of several achievements.

 

[Rove!]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

Ive already listed them several times in this thread.

Her signature achievement as Secretary of State was leading the charge and successfully removing Gadhafi, I'm not sure how anyone could argue otherwise.

I think her handling of Arab Soring, as a whole issue, was one of several achievements.

the rise of ISIS....

 

[timschochet]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

look at how the Arab Spring has progressed since she became SoS

It could have been much worse- it WOULD be much worse right now with nearly anyone else.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

look at how the Arab Spring has progressed since she became SoS

It could have been much worse- it WOULD be much worse right now with nearly anyone else.

You must realize what a poor argument that is to make

 

[timschochet]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

 

[timschochet]

Grove Diesel, there are many reasons to like Hillary. She is one of our most accomplished persons in government. She was a very good Senator and an excellent Secretary of State, one of the best we've ever had in modern times. And she is a good person.

What are her specific achievements to hang her hat on?

look at how the Arab Spring has progressed since she became SoS

It could have been much worse- it WOULD be much worse right now with nearly anyone else.

You must realize what a poor argument that is to make

I dont.

 

[shadrap]

I highly doubt any SOS can effect(good or bad) that much in those waste holes. Any major decisions affecting Arab spring & the like come from up high. She merely delivers the message in a statesome kind of way. IMO

 

[jon_mx]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

 

[jon_mx]

Tim needs to change his tagline to "Shill for Hill!"

 

[BassNBrew]

Once again, please list all the charges that has ever brought against Hillary.

Still waiting for even one that you can name.

She not progressive or liberal.

no matter how many times people make this absurd charge in this thread it doesn't make it any more true.On a majority of issues, Hillary Clinton is to the left of Barack Obama, who has been one of our more centrist Presidents.

Most of the progressives on this board agree with that charge.

 

[timschochet]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The decision to invade Iraq and enforce a democracy is IMO the main source of most of our current problems in the Middle East. I don't think it makes me a "shill" for writing that. I have no hatred for Bush. He tried to do his best, and his decisions were well-meaning. I believe, and I have long argued, that had Gore been President we still would have invaded Iraq, and it still would have been a disaster.

 

[Slapdash]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The decision to invade Iraq and enforce a democracy is IMO the main source of most of our current problems in the Middle East. I don't think it makes me a "shill" for writing that. I have no hatred for Bush. He tried to do his best, and his decisions were well-meaning. I believe, and I have long argued, that had Gore been President we still would have invaded Iraq, and it still would have been a disaster.

Right. Because these decisions come down from the establishment of both parties and not from the will of the people. Yet here you are shilling for another establishment candidate who will continue to make the same bad decisions regarding the middle east that have been made for 40 years.

 

[BassNBrew]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The decision to invade Iraq and enforce a democracy is IMO the main source of most of our current problems in the Middle East. I don't think it makes me a "shill" for writing that. I have no hatred for Bush. He tried to do his best, and his decisions were well-meaning. I believe, and I have long argued, that had Gore been President we still would have invaded Iraq, and it still would have been a disaster.

Actually the main sources of our Middle East problems are our support of Israel and our demand for cheap oil.

 

[jon_mx]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The decision to invade Iraq and enforce a democracy is IMO the main source of most of our current problems in the Middle East. I don't think it makes me a "shill" for writing that. I have no hatred for Bush. He tried to do his best, and his decisions were well-meaning. I believe, and I have long argued, that had Gore been President we still would have invaded Iraq, and it still would have been a disaster.

If we did not invade Iraq, things would still be a disaster. It would just be a different organization centered in a different country with the same radicals. You are every bit a shill for Hillary, the crf8 of this thread.

 

[timschochet]

Rove, the rise of ISIS is mainly due to the disastrous policies of the previous President. I could make the argument that if Hillary Clinton was a complete idiot, she would still be the best Secretary of State in this century just by default. But thankfully she is not an idiot and she did her best (which is very good indeed) to repair some of the damage. Of course it will be decades before it's fully repaired.

Of course it is. Not that the situation is about hopeless and there is no action which will satisfy the radicals, but let's not be a shill and just point the finger at Bush.

Not sure what you're arguing here. The decision to invade Iraq and enforce a democracy is IMO the main source of most of our current problems in the Middle East. I don't think it makes me a "shill" for writing that. I have no hatred for Bush. He tried to do his best, and his decisions were well-meaning. I believe, and I have long argued, that had Gore been President we still would have invaded Iraq, and it still would have been a disaster.

Right. Because these decisions come down from the establishment of both parties and not from the will of the people. Yet here you are shilling for another establishment candidate who will continue to make the same bad decisions regarding the middle east that have been made for 40 years.

Well at least you're consistent.

The decision to invade Iraq has nothing to do with the "establishment", it had to do with the desire of the American public for quick linear solutions to complex problems. I do not believe that a less establishment alternative to the type of leadership we have now would serve us better- in fact, I'm convinced it would be even worse.