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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (3 Viewers)

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All right, I gotta go to work. This was fun, but it's getting us nowhere. As usual supporters of Hillary are outnumbered in this thread by about 10 to 1, which has been consistent since this thread began. Thankfully the FFA is not representative of the general public when it comes to this subject. 

 
All right, I gotta go to work. This was fun, but it's getting us nowhere. As usual supporters of Hillary are outnumbered in this thread by about 10 to 1, which has been consistent since this thread began. Thankfully the FFA is not representative of the general public when it comes to this subject. 
You do realize the same is said of the opposite in the Trump thread don't you?

 
All right, I gotta go to work. This was fun, but it's getting us nowhere. As usual supporters of Hillary are outnumbered in this thread by about 10 to 1, which has been consistent since this thread began. Thankfully the FFA is not representative of the general public when it comes to this subject. 
Hillary's honest/trustworthy number is ~30% IIRC so I think it does.

 
Still does not bother me that she was careless with classified info. 

What is disqualifying, to me, is the entire setup. It demonstrates a state of mind that shows both poor judgment and execution. It suggests that she plays by her own rules, and that type of person is far more dangerous than a quack who panders to populist positions. One can be held in check, but when you play by your own rules nobody is there to hold you accountable until it's too late.

 
To be clear I can't stand Hillary but I honestly cannot understand the uproar over this.  Although I am pretty sure 99% of the rumbling is coming from the right.  If it wasn't this it would certainly be something else.  

 
Still does not bother me that she was careless with classified info. 

What is disqualifying, to me, is the entire setup. It demonstrates a state of mind that shows both poor judgment and execution. It suggests that she plays by her own rules, and that type of person is far more dangerous than a quack who panders to populist positions. One can be held in check, but when you play by your own rules nobody is there to hold you accountable until it's too late.
The culling of the emails is a bigger deal than people realize too I suspect. Heather Samuelson was there for the final interview and that was the line of interrogation that made Mills walk out of hers. The search terms pretty much guaranteed that what was not included would by nature be excluded by the results, even though they were very likely subjects of Foia requests.

 
Still does not bother me that she was careless with classified info. 

What is disqualifying, to me, is the entire setup. It demonstrates a state of mind that shows both poor judgment and execution. It suggests that she plays by her own rules, and that type of person is far more dangerous than a quack who panders to populist positions. One can be held in check, but when you play by your own rules nobody is there to hold you accountable until it's too late.
Yup.  I'm less lenient on the carelessness issue.  But, the purpose of the server is a major concern, particularly since she obviously lied about this.  The question is why did she lie about this?  

 
Hillary's honest/trustworthy number is ~30% IIRC so I think it does.
You know what he means.  The FFA demographic perfectly matches the anti-Hillary demographic, and as a result this place is an echo chamber when it comes to her.  Yes, her unfavorables outweigh her favorables, but to some extent that's just the reality of politics in the cable news/social media era.  Her favorables are higher than Congress, Ryan, Trump, and pretty much every other presidential candidate who ran other than Sanders.

 
Still does not bother me that she was careless with classified info. 

What is disqualifying, to me, is the entire setup. It demonstrates a state of mind that shows both poor judgment and execution. It suggests that she plays by her own rules, and that type of person is far more dangerous than a quack who panders to populist positions. One can be held in check, but when you play by your own rules nobody is there to hold you accountable until it's too late.
In 2009 there were companies that provided technology that would separate and protect work data on people's personal phones. Airwatch and Mobile Iron come to mind, but there were dozens of them back then. But I don't recall any of them met the federal governments strict standards at the time. 

So if Hillary's motivation was to carry one device, why the hell did she think her setup would meet federal government strict standards when dozens of companies that do that kind of work every day couldn't meet it?

The answer is she didn't care if her setup met federal requirements. Careless. Plays by her own rules. Always has. Always will. 

 
A lot has come out. It's shown there were actually classified documents improperly held, the type, the quantity, plus numerous other subjects, including those Hillary emailed with, on what, and by their absence what Hillary destroyed.
It didn't prove that.  You could speculate, but without access to the relevant emails we're pretty much in the dark.

 
Ah, I see. Yet another Clinton critic who can't actually back up his assertion with actual facts and laws and regulations.  Just like all the folks who called her a criminal without understanding the laws they claimed she had violated. 
To be clear, the FBI established that there is evidence the laws were violated. They then packaged their findings in an opinion that no reasonable prosecutor would prosecute. Yet what exactly is a "reasonable prosecutor"?

 
:lmao: You must live in another reality. When the FBI declares that you broke the law as written but that it seems that the law hasn't been enforced as written, that certainly isn't a case of baseless accusations. That's a case of getting lucky that previous prosecutors chose to ignore the law as it is written.
The FBI didn't declare she broke the law.  Comey specifically stopped short of that.

 
I seriously doubt a public official or the government retains any rights on a public statement.  Government employees certainly can not profit from their public work.  
This isn't about profiting from your work - its about having your likeness implicitly endorse a candidate without Comey's consent.  

 
Whenever you start thinking about how this stuff is going to always be a deal with Hillary - this email #### (overblown as it is) is all on her and the way she handled herself, Benghazi (manufactured scandal), etc - just take a look at the Republican Party and know she is an infinitely better choice for the job.

 
You're mixing separate issues.  The purpose of the server in the first place was to avoid FOIA, in order to keep the public's eyes away from Hillary's correspondence.

A second, separate issue is that she mishandled classified info.  It would have been mishandling even if she had used a .gov e-mail address.
Your first issue is fairly irrelevant as what's come out of the FOIA emails has been fairly irrelevant. 

 
"Although there is evidence of potential violations of the statutes regarding the handling of classified information, "

"In looking back at our investigations into mishandling or removal of classified information, we cannot find a case that would support bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted involved some combination of: clearly intentional and willful mishandling of classified information; or vast quantities of materials exposed in such a way as to support an inference of intentional misconduct; or indications of disloyalty to the United States; or efforts to obstruct justice. We do not see those things here."

He flat out says that there is evidence that the statutes were broken, but then says that they are not recommending prosecution because previous indictments were for situations that had intent of some sort. 
Qualifiers matter.

 
Still does not bother me that she was careless with classified info. 

What is disqualifying, to me, is the entire setup. It demonstrates a state of mind that shows both poor judgment and execution. It suggests that she plays by her own rules, and that type of person is far more dangerous than a quack who panders to populist positions. One can be held in check, but when you play by your own rules nobody is there to hold you accountable until it's too late.
This is what reasonable people think. I never cared about the emails. I only cared that she possibly and now appears did put our National Security at risk. It DOES NOT MATTER to what degree she did this. She knew better. Twice I posted a youtube in this thread of a presser she did before all this and she talks about internet and email safety and concerns.

 
All right, I gotta go to work. This was fun, but it's getting us nowhere. As usual supporters of Hillary are outnumbered in this thread by about 10 to 1, which has been consistent since this thread began. Thankfully the FFA is not representative of the general public when it comes to this subject. 
I'm not sure you realize, the people pounding on you in the last few pages are different than the usual suspects (like myself).  It's a whole other group of people with some familiar faces sprinkled in.

That said, I'm not sure I've ever seen Jayrok get worked up like this.  I like it :thumbup:  

 
To be clear, the FBI established that there is evidence the laws were violated. They then packaged their findings in an opinion that no reasonable prosecutor would prosecute. Yet what exactly is a "reasonable prosecutor"?
No they didn't.  They said that there was evidence of potential violations. You shouldn't say "to be clear" and then say something that's wrong.

I've explained this a bunch of times in this thread dating back .  The statutes most often cited as possibly violated by Clinton's server are clearly aimed at the physical removal of documents and the intentional sharing of those documents with other people, or at a minimum truly reckless behavior like leaving a map of ISIS drone target sites lying on a table while you hit on the barista or something.  It is difficult to shoehorn Clinton's email stuff into any plain language reading of the statutes and their requirements regarding intent.

It's possible that a prosecutor could have made the case by stretching the meaning of some of the words in those statutes to cover what she did and also by claiming it was intentional or in the case of 18 usc 793(f) was done with gross negligence, but chances are slim and no prosecutor had thought it prudent to do so before, so no reasonable one would do so now.

And just to head off your next argument- that doesn't make her a criminal that got lucky.  If you have to stretch the meanings of words and make unsupported assumptions about intent to be considered in violation of a statute, you didn't commit a crime and aren't a criminal. Imagine you're walking down the hall of your office with a boxcutter and you bump into someone. Did you commit aggravated assault?  I could make the case by really stretching the words of the relevant criminal statute and making assumptions about your intent that the evidence probably does not support, but no reasonable prosecutor would do so.

 
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To be clear, the FBI established that there is evidence the laws were violated. They then packaged their findings in an opinion that no reasonable prosecutor would prosecute. Yet what exactly is a "reasonable prosecutor"?
Name one prosecutor who would prosecute a Presidential Candiate less then 5 months until the General Election.

 
It didn't prove that.  You could speculate, but without access to the relevant emails we're pretty much in the dark.
CNN:

As Comey said, "any reasonable person ... should have known that an unclassified system was no place" for that sort of information. And Clinton and her team did delete emails that contained classified information. Those are facts, and they contradict what Clinton and her team have been saying.

No they didn't.  They said that there was evidence of potential violations. You shouldn't say "to be clear" and then say something that's wrong.

I've explained this a bunch of times in this thread dating back .  The statutes most often cited as possibly violated by Clinton's server are clearly aimed at the physical removal of documents and the intentional sharing of those documents with other people, or at a minimum truly reckless behavior like leaving a map of ISIS drone target sites lying on a table while you hit on the barista or something.  It is difficult to shoehorn Clinton's email stuff into any plain language reading of the statutes and their requirements regarding intent.

It's possible that a prosecutor could have made the case by stretching the meaning of some of the words in those statutes to cover what she did and also by claiming it was intentional or in the case of 18 usc 793(f) was done with gross negligence, but chances are slim and no prosecutor had thought it prudent to do so before, so no reasonable one would do so now.

And just to head off your next argument- that doesn't make her a criminal that got lucky.  If you have to stretch the meanings of words and make assumptions about intent to be considered in violation of a statute, you didn't commit a crime and aren't a criminal. Imagine you're walking down the hall of your office with a boxcutter and you bump into someone. Did you commit aggravated assault?  I could make the case by really stretching the words of the relevant criminal statute and making assumptions about your intent that the evidence probably does not support, but no reasonable prosecutor would do so.
The head of the FBI slammed Clinton and her team as "extremely careless." I think it's worse; I think she's extremely clueless about the bigger picture.

In law school, we often talked about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. She may not have violated the letter of the law (although there's debate there, too) but she sure as hell violated the spirit of it.

 
Any dem will win regardless so how can Clinton not withdraw from the race with all the lies and turmoil around her?  This latest scandal is a disaster for peoples beliefs in the system.  I do not like Fiorina but what she said is very true.

On that Clinton was hacked by foreign governments.

"When you’re a Clinton, none of this matters," Fiorina wrote. "Not when you have the ear of the President, or you can call a secret airport meeting with the Attorney General. Not when you behave as if you’re above the law, and will never be held responsible for your actions."

She continued: "It’s not just a miscarriage of justice, but a blow to the very heart of our democracy. This is a shameful day for the rule of law and the security of our nation, no matter what your political beliefs may be."

 
It's not over the top to say that, Tim.  She wouldn't qualify for one.  If she had one now it would be revoked.. believe that.  She would be fired as Secretary of State.  How would that look on her resume?  If the president doesn't need any type of clearance, so be it.  It's fine, she's above the law.  Voters obviously don't care.  

You think her dealings with her emails was always a minor issue and "in no way" relevant to the serious issues the SOS faces?  Her reading and disseminating classified material in an insecure manner are not relevant to her job as SoS?  Do you really believe that?  I get that you don't understand the impact of not safeguarding that type of information or why it is classified to certain levels.  And that's ok.. as such, this conversation doesn't need to go any farther.  
Well, if she weren't running for President we'd never have known about this.  

I think it's pretty easy to see her carelessness as somewhat minor, especially when we consider how much our government has been overclassifying documents and how poor our computer infrastructure is.  

 
CNN:

As Comey said, "any reasonable person ... should have known that an unclassified system was no place" for that sort of information. And Clinton and her team did delete emails that contained classified information. Those are facts, and they contradict what Clinton and her team have been saying.

The head of the FBI slammed Clinton and her team as "extremely careless." I think it's worse; I think she's extremely clueless about the bigger picture.

In law school, we often talked about the letter of the law versus the spirit of the law. She may not have violated the letter of the law (although there's debate there, too) but she sure as hell violated the spirit of it.
The laws in question were written in the early part of the 20th century.  Nobody involved in drafting or passing them had the relative security of electronic communications in mind.

 
Ah, I see. Yet another Clinton critic who can't actually back up his assertion with actual facts and laws and regulations.  Just like all the folks who called her a criminal without understanding the laws they claimed she had violated. 
SMH.  I know you are just baiting me here but I'll try to play along.  I responded to someone who posted "LOL at the "she couldn't even work at (insert agency here) theme"...  I asked him to call various departments in DC that have such requirements and ask them.  

You replied with "such requirements as what?"..  I think you knew what I was talking about but you chose to play your game.  You couldn't piece together from two sentences what was being discussed.  But anyway... let's talk about my "assertion" as you call it.

I said she wouldn't be hired in any of those departments for a position that requires a background check to assess the competence and trust-worthiness of an employee to be cleared to handle and process classified information.  She wouldn't pass such a check.. not this soon after the FBI director deemed her extremely careless (grossly negligent is what he may have wanted to say, but those are my words not his).  She would not be hired and entrusted with duties related to the handling of such material.  She wouldn't qualify.  

A solution would be to call the FBI or one of the other departments (Department of Defense, for instance) and ask about the requirements to qualify for a position that requires the safe handling of classified material.  They're not my requirements.  So, I said don't take my word for it.  Call them and ask.  

And for the record.. I said several pages ago that I didn't think she is a criminal and didn't think she deserved to face criminal charges.  Although, Rudy Giuliani, who used to be the FBI director's boss and US associate attorney general, believes that there is a precedent where she could be indicted on criminal charges on the charge of gross negligence.  But he said that, not me.  

 
The laws in question were written in the early part of the 20th century.  Nobody involved in drafting or passing them had the relative security of electronic communications in mind.
If thats the crutch of an excuse you are using then you look really bad trying to argue the fact.

 
Which ridiculous reaction?  All along, my primary objections to Hillary have been: 1) poor judgment, 2) lack of transparency, and 3) disregard for the truth.  She's displayed these same qualities over and over again throughout her career, and throughout this campaign alone.  Now, Comey confirmed all three of them in this one investigation.
Would you list the times she's displayed poor judgment in your opinion starting as far back as you can.  I'm curious what exactly you mean by this.

 
The laws in question were written in the early part of the 20th century.  Nobody involved in drafting or passing them had the relative security of electronic communications in mind.
And therefore...?  Mind carrying this through to the endpoint of your position?

 
no prosecutor had thought it prudent to do so before, so no reasonable one would do so now
I don't want to rehash the statutes. I think everyone who was engaging in that discussion can see now that both sides had points and there was nothing unreasonable about either position (ie those who took the time to look at it properly). IMO of course, but I think this has been a bit of a nil-nil draw, perhaps with Hillary going through on a penalty kick.

However about this piece you mention - one thing that has occurred to me is that really when does the gross negligence application ever really come up? How could it? No one would be so dumb, so brazen to try this and then take it to this extreme. - It would take a really unique set of facts, but this case with Hillary really might just be that, an extremely unusual set of facts to which which the 793f GN provision might apply. I always thought this was reasonably a jury decision. Comey or a "reasonable" prosecutor could have said the same. In fact a roomful of "reasonable prosecutors" could easily fall 50/50 on this. IMO.

What's also funny is I don't think in all the FBI and USA press conferences I have seen locally - and between the political corruption cases and drug ring and gang war stories we have yes we have had a lot - I don't think I can ever recall an FBI agent or really even the USA stating the defendant's side of things. It's always stating why there is a prosecution and the facts and procedure be damned (per the defense) it's happening. Truly the common person does not get this kind of treatment, even the common politician.

 
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SMH.  I know you are just baiting me here but I'll try to play along.  I responded to someone who posted "LOL at the "she couldn't even work at (insert agency here) theme"...  I asked him to call various departments in DC that have such requirements and ask them.  

You replied with "such requirements as what?"..  I think you knew what I was talking about but you chose to play your game.  You couldn't piece together from two sentences what was being discussed.  But anyway... let's talk about my "assertion" as you call it.

I said she wouldn't be hired in any of those departments for a position that requires a background check to assess the competence and trust-worthiness of an employee to be cleared to handle and process classified information.  She wouldn't pass such a check.. not this soon after the FBI director deemed her extremely careless (grossly negligent is what he may have wanted to say, but those are my words not his).  She would not be hired and entrusted with duties related to the handling of such material.  She wouldn't qualify.  

A solution would be to call the FBI or one of the other departments (Department of Defense, for instance) and ask about the requirements to qualify for a position that requires the safe handling of classified material.  They're not my requirements.  So, I said don't take my word for it.  Call them and ask.  

And for the record.. I said several pages ago that I didn't think she is a criminal and didn't think she deserved to face criminal charges.  Although, Rudy Giuliani, who used to be the FBI director's boss and US associate attorney general, believes that there is a precedent where she could be indicted on criminal charges on the charge of gross negligence.  But he said that, not me.  
I totally disagree that this would keep her from getting a job at an agency that required a background check regarding competence and trustworthiness.

I'm not calling agencies to ask their requirements for hiring for jobs requiring safe handling of classified material, that should be publicly available information. If you want to link to them I'd be happy to read them and discuss whether Clinton would be disqualified based on them.

 
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