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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (6 Viewers)

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The Commish said:
And I want to be clear here....the act of voting third party isn't to be seen in a vacuum when it comes to "the blame game" we have going on in here.  This action isn't a single point of judgment.  There's a lot to take into account prior to the general election...as a matter of fact, I'd even suggest the blame begins to decrease (unless you completely refuse to participate until the general....those people, well, yeah...) for those who are engaged from the start.  I asked a genuine question before, but it appears no one else wanted to discuss it.
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I may have missed it too if you were asking it to 'the community'.

It's Friday so let's do it.

IMO yeah we all deserve some blame, not just posters here but the electorate. IMO we're a dysfunctional family at this point. So one of our brothers is drug addicted, can't get a job or keep one, is angry, lashes out, has run ins with the law and regular stints in rehab, lies, cheats, steals.... is the family really blameless? Even the 'good' kid who has the professional job? Even the mother who tried so hard or the father who was stern because he cared?

I'm extemporizing, but it's true, our country has a problem. People can't wash their hands of it really, we're all on the hook.

 
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The way I remember it: Some people were mad at Bush Sr. because he raised taxes. So we elect the Clintons. Then some people were angry at the Clintons because they besmirched the White House. Ok, so they elect Bush Jr. Then some people were angry at Bush Jr. because Iraq and the financial crash. Ok. Then we elect Obama. Then some people were angry at Obama because executive power and Isis, and oh yeah some people were angry at the GOPe because 'they never win'.

Main thing seemingly driving our electoral decisions is anger. Not a healthy or smart way to do things generally.

(It's Friday folks).

 
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The Commish said:
Can't say that I blame you for staying out....there's something sadistically wrong with me that I can't help coming back to this thing :bag:   It wasn't directed to you specifically.  It was a question in general.  Was wondering the thoughts of all those here who acknowledge we all carry a bit of the burden for the mess we're in.  Trying to understand how everyone sees the blame allocation from us (electorate), to the parties, to the candidates, to the media, to the system, everyone/everything.
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Gotcha.

Well you know me- I put the blame on the electorate for just about everything. We get the candidates, parties, and media we deserve. If anyone doubted that before, Trump is Exhibit A. The two party system I think is an inevitable result of the Constitution and our winner-take-all congressional elections, but otherwise we get what we deserve.

If you want to get really depressed, read the latest from Charlie Pierce: The Great American Surrender. Here is maybe the most cutting excerpt, about the exhaustive recent Fahrenthold and Eichenwald work on the incredible corruption and shadiness of the Trump Foundation and Trump Organization, both of them miles beyond anything Clinton has ever actually done :

This likely will occasion another spasm of impotent introspection on the part of our elite political media on the topic of, "Why doesn't any of this stick?" But few of the members of that media will dare to look at the real answer, which is that there is a substantial constituency for what Trump has been peddling and that the elite political media has been pandering to that constituency every day since Trump became a genuine phenomenon. The racism is offensive and the economic insecurity is a dodge. Americans are bored with their democracy and they don't have the democratic energy to do anything about it, so they'll settle for an entertaining quasi-strongman. When they decline, democracies get the dictators they deserve. A country mired in apathy and lassitude gets a dictator who can't even put in the hard work of becoming very good at it.
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Anyway, happy Friday!

 
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I may have missed it too if you were asking it to 'the community'.

It's Friday so let's do it.

IMO yeah we all deserve some blame, not just posters here but the electorate. IMO we're a dysfunctional family at this point. So one of our brothers is drug addicted, can't get a job or keep one, is angry, lashes out, has run ins with the law and regular stints in rehab, lies, cheats, steals.... is the family really blameless? Even the 'good' kid who has the professional job? Even the mother who tried so hard or the father who was stern because he cared?

I'm extemporizing, but it's true, our country has a problem. People can't wash their hands of it really, we're all on the hook.
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Politics has always been dysfunctional.  I think social media and the Internet have magnified it.  There is just so much emotional rhetoric which gets thrown about. The most common arguement is calling someone a bigot or stupid.  Rationale discussion is nearly impossible even in this forum which tends to be fairly well educated.  

 
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jon_mx said:
Politics has always been dysfunctional.  I think social media and the Internet have magnified it.  There is just so much emotional rhetoric which gets thrown about. The most common arguement is calling someone a bigot or stupid.  Rationale discussion is nearly impossible even in this forum which tends to be fairly well educated.  
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I do think social media and the internet have made everyone a little bit crazier, more divided and more enclosed within their own ideological bubble.

Somewhere I saw a graph of the change in the division of ideological opinion in this country over the last 20-40 years and it has gotten incredibly wide. I can't find it but the visual was something else.

 
James Daulton said:
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?
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She also is a global assassin, has Parkinsons or AIDS, and cannot be photographed.

 
James Daulton said:
I just can't even fathom that there's discussion about it.  Body doublers make birthers seem like perfectly reasonable in comparison. 
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I was trying to be funny about it. It would help if Hillary said 'well I had an IV and vitamin pack after getting dehydrated and fainted due to exhaustion and exacerbation from low blood pressure, which is a problem I've had over the last 20 years, so this is something I deal with from time to time and I feel better now' instead of just claiming she had the flu. People who lie make others paranoid what they're lying about. If you lie to your girlfriend about getting drinks with your old college buddy she will think you're having an affair with some girl at the office even though there's no chance you would ever do that.

 
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James Daulton said:
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?
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It worked for the nWo with sting back in wcw

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
I do think social media and the internet have made everyone a little bit crazier, more divided and more enclosed within their own ideological bubble.

Somewhere I saw a graph of the change in the division of ideological opinion in this country over the last 20-40 years and it has gotten incredibly wide. I can't find it but the visual was something else.
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Our democracy has been filled with shady cash and corruption going back to George Washington, the facade is just no longer there.

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
A good test would be to throw water on it. This may be a surprise move from Trump at the debate.
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That's risky. She could either go up in smoke ala the wicked witch of the west or multiple like a gremlin. This is a last resort IMO. 

 
The Commish said:
Can't say that I blame you for staying out....there's something sadistically wrong with me that I can't help coming back to this thing :bag:   It wasn't directed to you specifically.  It was a question in general.  Was wondering the thoughts of all those here who acknowledge we all carry a bit of the burden for the mess we're in.  Trying to understand how everyone sees the blame allocation from us (electorate), to the parties, to the candidates, to the media, to the system, everyone/everything.
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On the democratic side:

1.  Hillary Clinton - has bribed and browbeaten her way to the top of the DNC.  She may be a lousy campaigner, but she (and Bubba) is an excellent politician.  She knows how to bend the will of people in her way.

2.  DNC - not entirely their fault because the Clintons steamrolled the party, but they should have had a stronger backbone.  I understand they were worried about a vengeful Clinton machine, but they should have let things play out naturally over the course of last summer - encouraging veteran Dems, and up-and-comers, to make their pitch - and then coalescing behind a preferred candidate.  Instead they simple caved to the notion that it was Clinton's time, and kept legitimate contenders away for the sake of party unity.  Then, when a crazy old guy almost crashes the party - they lock the doors to keep him out.

3.  @timschochet - no explanation necessary

4.  @squistion - he seems a little young, so he probably does not know any better, but blind loyalty is usually not a good thing

5.  Hilbots in general.  The inability to see obvious flaws is downright scary.

6.  Media - if you did not think the media was in the bag for Clinton, then the clip showing them regurgitating the Clinton talking points following her fainting episode should have ended any doubts.  I don't know when it happened, but the media, on both sides - not just the liberal side, has lost all semblance of an independent watchdog.  Too many "journalists" are all too happy to spit out the candidates talking points as journalism, rather than taking anything said by either party with a healthy degree of skepticism.  They know they only get "access" if they parrot the talking points

On the GOP side:

1.  Media - I think the media gets top billing for Trump's nomination.  Starting last summer they allowed him to dominate news coverage, giving him loads of free advertising, just because he said something outlandish.  It was as if the political reporters had never seen a Jerry Springer show, and felt the need to show it day after day.  To Trump's credit - he is the master of creating attention - but again the media is supposed to be above the fray.

2.  GOP - GOP had a different problem than the DNC - the GOP allowed all-comers into the tent, and ended up with a three-ring circus.  But the GOP failed at the next step which is, after hearing from the contenders - coalescing behind the preferred candidate.  Hell, even just forcing out some of the long-shots sooner could have helped a front-runner gain traction on Trump.  There was early money behind Jeb, but I don't recall the establishment GOPers rallying behind him, and pushing Jeb to the forefront.  Maybe they knew he lacked energy, and ultimately would be a flawed candidate.  But, then you had a lot of opportunities to get Paul Ryan and the leadership firmly behind a "mainstream" GOP candidate.  At this point, any of the contenders would be in a great position, no matter their weaknesses.  Kasich, Rubio, even Cruz.  The GOP was simply too disorganized and divided to make this happen.

3.  Nascar/WrestleMania crowd - "deplorables" is obviously too harsh.  But, this is a voting bloc where critical thinking skills are not necessary.  They are easily energized and looking for an outgoing leader - enter Trump.  I think they got caught up in the moment, and like the kind of brash bravado that Trump portrays.  This is the group that carried Trump to the nomination.  Now you have the rest of the GOP struggling to figure out whether to support Trump and a loose GOP agenda, or stay away from the circus.  Now there are some supporters who like Trump's attitude, and maybe just hate Obama and/or Clinton, but the bulk of his core support comes from people who are not really thinking through the consequences.  (To be fair - I think the Hilbots have grossly overplayed the "Trump is the Devil" card, and while I may not approve of Trump, I don't think the country is going to come to an end if he is elected.)

 
James Daulton said:
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?
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Its crazier to think she doesn't have a body double...

 
James Daulton said:
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?
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I believe it is Amy Poehler of SNL fame.  

 
Sinn Fein said:
On the democratic side:

1.  Hillary Clinton - has bribed and browbeaten her way to the top of the DNC.  She may be a lousy campaigner, but she (and Bubba) is an excellent politician.  She knows how to bend the will of people in her way.

2.  DNC - not entirely their fault because the Clintons steamrolled the party, but they should have had a stronger backbone.  I understand they were worried about a vengeful Clinton machine, but they should have let things play out naturally over the course of last summer - encouraging veteran Dems, and up-and-comers, to make their pitch - and then coalescing behind a preferred candidate.  Instead they simple caved to the notion that it was Clinton's time, and kept legitimate contenders away for the sake of party unity.  Then, when a crazy old guy almost crashes the party - they lock the doors to keep him out.

3.  @timschochet - no explanation necessary

4.  @squistion - he seems a little young, so he probably does not know any better, but blind loyalty is usually not a good thing

5.  Hilbots in general.  The inability to see obvious flaws is downright scary.

6.  Media - if you did not think the media was in the bag for Clinton, then the clip showing them regurgitating the Clinton talking points following her fainting episode should have ended any doubts.  I don't know when it happened, but the media, on both sides - not just the liberal side, has lost all semblance of an independent watchdog.  Too many "journalists" are all too happy to spit out the candidates talking points as journalism, rather than taking anything said by either party with a healthy degree of skepticism.  They know they only get "access" if they parrot the talking points

On the GOP side:

1.  Media - I think the media gets top billing for Trump's nomination.  Starting last summer they allowed him to dominate news coverage, giving him loads of free advertising, just because he said something outlandish.  It was as if the political reporters had never seen a Jerry Springer show, and felt the need to show it day after day.  To Trump's credit - he is the master of creating attention - but again the media is supposed to be above the fray.

2.  GOP - GOP had a different problem than the DNC - the GOP allowed all-comers into the tent, and ended up with a three-ring circus.  But the GOP failed at the next step which is, after hearing from the contenders - coalescing behind the preferred candidate.  Hell, even just forcing out some of the long-shots sooner could have helped a front-runner gain traction on Trump.  There was early money behind Jeb, but I don't recall the establishment GOPers rallying behind him, and pushing Jeb to the forefront.  Maybe they knew he lacked energy, and ultimately would be a flawed candidate.  But, then you had a lot of opportunities to get Paul Ryan and the leadership firmly behind a "mainstream" GOP candidate.  At this point, any of the contenders would be in a great position, no matter their weaknesses.  Kasich, Rubio, even Cruz.  The GOP was simply too disorganized and divided to make this happen.

3.  Nascar/WrestleMania crowd - "deplorables" is obviously too harsh.  But, this is a voting bloc where critical thinking skills are not necessary.  They are easily energized and looking for an outgoing leader - enter Trump.  I think they got caught up in the moment, and like the kind of brash bravado that Trump portrays.  This is the group that carried Trump to the nomination.  Now you have the rest of the GOP struggling to figure out whether to support Trump and a loose GOP agenda, or stay away from the circus.  Now there are some supporters who like Trump's attitude, and maybe just hate Obama and/or Clinton, but the bulk of his core support comes from people who are not really thinking through the consequences.  (To be fair - I think the Hilbots have grossly overplayed the "Trump is the Devil" card, and while I may not approve of Trump, I don't think the country is going to come to an end if he is elected.)
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This post was excellent.

 
James Daulton said:
There's no way any sane person believes in a Clinton body double, right?  I mean, no rational, responsible, productive member of society.  It's simply not possible, is it?
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Of course not, that is why we keep hearing it from Mr. Ham.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Sure, sure. Just as long as you and people who agree with you don't have to accept any sort of responsibility :thumbup:
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I bear no responsibility to the current choices - I neither contributed to either candidate nor voted for either candidate.  I, in fact, voted for Sanders in my primary, I contributed to Sanders, and I displayed signs, bumperstickers, and shirts for Sanders, and I generally advocated for Sanders in person and on-line.

Now, if you want to say I bear some responsibility for Trump getting elected - sure.  But, I am so far down the list of reasons why Clinton and the Dems could lose this election, that it hardly seems worth mentioning.  I also don't want to bear the responsibility for Clinton getting elected. So, surely you can understand my dilemma - people will blame me no matter who gets elected.  I live in a state where my vote for president, and even down ticket, won't matter.  But, if it makes you feel better to think that the reason Clinton might lose is because she does not get enough votes - thus blaming everyone not voting Clinton.  OK.

 
Sinn Fein said:
I bear no responsibility to the current choices - I neither contributed to either candidate nor voted for either candidate.  I, in fact, voted for Sanders in my primary, I contributed to Sanders, and I displayed signs, bumperstickers, and shirts for Sanders, and I generally advocated for Sanders in person and on-line.

Now, if you want to say I bear some responsibility for Trump getting elected - sure.  But, I am so far down the list of reasons why Clinton and the Dems could lose this election, that it hardly seems worth mentioning.  I also don't want to bear the responsibility for Clinton getting elected. So, surely you can understand my dilemma - people will blame me no matter who gets elected.  I live in a state where my vote for president, and even down ticket, won't matter.  But, if it makes you feel better to think that the reason Clinton might lose is because she does not get enough votes - thus blaming everyone not voting Clinton.  OK.
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Yes, you do. First off, in my experience you were a poor advocate for Sanders online. You were off-putting from my perspective as an undecided Dem voter who cared first and foremost about winning in November, you focused on negativity and spreading conspiracy theories/exaggerating real concerns about Clinton rather than telling us why we should vote for Sanders. To be fair you did do both ... but you did a lot more of the former, at least in my experience. And whether you think that's valid or not, or true about other Sander supporters or not, I'd say the proof is in the results. Trump faced far more resistance from "the machine" than Sanders did, and he and his supporters were able to overcome it.

But in any event, my point was much broader than that. We all bear responsibility for everything that happens. The weak media coverage that has failed to properly highlight things about Trump that should be immediately disqualifying is all of our fault, because it's been building for years and we continued to consume and validate it. The nonsensical idea that there's some value in being an "outsider" for the job of lead executive administrator and commander in chief came from us and our desire to blame our problems on government instead of ourselves. Whatever it is that has fueled Trumpism is to some degree all of our faults, whether we let the hatred and resentment fester too long, or we ignored the legitimate concerns of certain constituencies, or both. We all did this. I'm not excluding myself or anyone else who votes for Clinton from that.

 
TobiasFunke said:
Yes, you do. First off, in my experience you were a poor advocate for Sanders online. You were off-putting from my perspective as an undecided Dem voter who cared first and foremost about winning in November, you focused on negativity and spreading conspiracy theories/exaggerating real concerns about Clinton rather than telling us why we should vote for Sanders. To be fair you did do both ... but you did a lot more of the former, at least in my experience. And whether you think that's valid or not, or true about other Sander supporters or not, I'd say the proof is in the results. Trump faced far more resistance from "the machine" than Sanders did, and he and his supporters were able to overcome it.
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To each his own.  I think you will find you are in the minority when it comes to my advocating for Sanders.  I can be acerbic, and I don't mind trolling the Hillary supporters from time-to-time, but my views, though different from yours, were generally well reasoned and thought out when I presented them here.  But, ultimately that is a "you" problem, if you were focused on the candidates' supporters rather than the candidates themselves.  I, too, wanted the best candidate to win in November - hence my opposition to Clinton, she was not, and is not, the best candidate the Dems could have nominated to win in November.  In fact, I'd say that many of the Clinton supporters never considered that she was a flawed candidate who would struggle in a general election - it was the Clinton supporters who kept harping on "best candidate in the general" - it was a flawed analysis.  Most people believe what they want to believe.  Life is easier that way.

And saying "We all bear responsibility" is the biggest cop-out.  That is the same as saying this outcome was inevitable, and that we had no free will to alter that outcome.  By saying that everyone is to blame, you are essentially saying no-one is to blame.  We could have had better options.  We should have had better options.  Start thinking critically about why we don't have better options, instead of throwing your hands in the air as if we had no choice here.

 
I would mention to fellow Bernie supporters, please consider looking at the platform and the appointments that will play out over the next 8 years under the 2 realistic alternatives. Get it and agree, no one likes Hillary. She's above people, she lies first and considers the ramifications later, I don't particularly like her. It's apparent we all wanted better choices. But let's deal with business in the election, and not let everything that's been shaping up in the country that's been good fall by the wayside to let some populist nonsensical lunatic do who knows what on regular basis. Markets don't react well to uncertainty. Housing market, stock market, unemployment: it's all a crapshoot if we just abdicate responsibility. Please look to the decision we're faced with now as a binary choice. The Trump people would have you believe you're sending a message. Don't fall for it.

 
Sinn Fein said:
And saying "We all bear responsibility" is the biggest cop-out.  That is the same as saying this outcome was inevitable, and that we had no free will to alter that outcome.  By saying that everyone is to blame, you are essentially saying no-one is to blame.  We could have had better options.  We should have had better options.  Start thinking critically about why we don't have better options, instead of throwing your hands in the air as if we had no choice here.
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This makes no sense. I'm saying the exact opposite of your interpretation. I'm not throwing my hands in the air, or saying no one is to blame. I've never stopped thinking critically about why we don't have better options.  I'm more than willing to do so, as I've said over and over. I'm simply saying I think everyone else should do the same.  You apparently don't think they should, and don't want to do it yourself. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject of accountability, I guess.

 
TobiasFunke said:
This makes no sense. I'm saying the exact opposite of your interpretation. I'm not throwing my hands in the air, or saying no one is to blame. I've never stopped thinking critically about why we don't have better options.  I'm more than willing to do so, as I've said over and over. I'm simply saying I think everyone else should do the same.  You apparently don't think they should, and don't want to do it yourself. We'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject of accountability, I guess.
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Well, then answer the original question:  How did we get in the "mess we are in"?

Was it inevitable, or was there something that could have changed the outcome?  If something(s) could have changed the outcome - what specifically could have changed the outcome from Clinton v. Trump?  If you answer is that we are all to blame, then what could/should we collectively, or any individual or group, have done differently between last summer and this summer to alter that outcome?

 
This is interesting thus far.  Again, I feel like a sailor with no ship.  This election cycle was the first time in my voting life where I actually had a candidate I was proud and excited to vote for.....first time.  That drove me to share as much information as possible with anyone who would listen.  I gave up my seats (that I stood in line four hours for) to people who didn't know much about my candidate.  As pointless as I thought they were going to be, I went to Trump, Jeb, Rubio, other GOP "rallies" if they were close by.  I went to all these kinds of events as much as possible this time around, not because of the candidates, but because of the people.  I wanted to hear what others had to say and why they liked their candidate.  I do this frequently for local elections/issues.  I like observing the sociological aspect of politics.  I can honestly say, I have never been more engaged in a federal election cycle than I was this one.  Not sure what else I could have done.  It was a great learning experience for me even if it made me even more pessimistic about our government and it's processes.

Before this election cycle, I was very much in the "we get exactly what we deserve" group with TF.  Ultimately, I believed the buck stopped with us as an electorate.  I don't believe this any longer.  There is a great divide in this country between those who want meaningful change and those who "got their's" and as a result are fine with the way things are.  Both parties are in the midst of that struggle and this is why I don't believe that the buck stops with "us" anymore.  The GOP is much further down the path than the Dems, but they are both in that struggle.  If the Dems don't stand up and take notice, it won't take long before they are in the stage the GOP is in right now.  The "us" has very different segments that make up the collective and those segments are growing in quantity.  I have zero faith that two parties will be able to effectively cater to all these segments within the parties.  This is because of the "us vs them" mentality we see in the electorate.  At this point I'm not really sure the electorate learned it from the politicians or the politicians learned it from the electorate, but it's the driving force for disarray in the parties themselves AND between the parties as well.  

This divide is THE problem I believe we need to address.  How do we do that?  There's a lot of things that need to be done, but I think the most "bang for your buck" things would be allowing disagreement to be OK.  We don't have to agree on everything and it's ok to have different opinions.  Holding politicians to a standard that is relatively constant in lieu of "well, he's not as bad as the other guy".  Full realization of what our "media" is and how useless it really is.  Somehow convincing people to be engaged at a local level in their local political cultures.  This would hopefully show them that "top/down" doesn't work....you have to start locally if you want to improve the option pool moving up to the state/federal level.  

I have a ton more thoughts going through my mind, but I need to sit and collect them as I feel like I'm just babbling at this point......more to come.....

 
Sinn Fein said:
Well, then answer the original question:  How did we get in the "mess we are in"?

Was it inevitable, or was there something that could have changed the outcome?  If something(s) could have changed the outcome - what specifically could have changed the outcome from Clinton v. Trump?  If you answer is that we are all to blame, then what could/should we collectively, or any individual or group, have done differently between last summer and this summer to alter that outcome?
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I think the answer is long and complex.  Libraries will be filled with books trying to answer that question. I can't possibly answer it in a message board post.

If I had to start somewhere I guess I would start with 24 hour news networks and their piss-poor quality of coverage. They allow for a campaign like Trump's- which has been accurately analogized to a Denial of Service attack on the dissemination of accurate news and analysis-  to thrive. 

And that's not to blame the media- we're the ones who created and patronize this crap instead of holding them to a higher standard.  More people should be reading stuff like Fahrenholtd's work in the Post than watching Morning Joe, or at least people should be doing both. If they were Trump would have been gone long ago, but that's not what we do.

I think a crazy backlash to a confluence of racial stuff is probably #2 on my list (Obama presidency + camera phones bringing race-based police violence to the fore).  And I'd probably put the perceived inevitability of Clinton's nomination removing possibly better candidates from the Dem field, and then the tougher standards our society is holding her to in the general election likely due to her gender #3/#4 (I can feel people rolling their eyes already, but consider where this race would be if Trump had one spouse and child and had been cheated on by his lecherous politician wife and Clinton was a wealthy heiress with no government experience who had five children by three different marriages).

But to be clear, those are just a few of like hundreds of different things.

 
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I am honored that Sinn Fein has me listed only behind the DNC and Hillary herself as being responsible for her candidacy. I don't deserve such an accolade but I will accept it with heartfelt gratitude. 

 
Why is CNN suddenly so critical of everything Trump?  Where have they been for the last year?  Why the sudden shift? It's almost like they just realized they'll be held responsible should he win the election. If they were this critical of him a year ago maybe we wouldn't be in this mess. It's been nothing except covering every rally and speech he's given with almost no calling out the BS to suddenly crying BS at everything he says. You're too late!  These clowns put ratings above everything else and now we're all doomed.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Well, then answer the original question:  How did we get in the "mess we are in"?

Was it inevitable, or was there something that could have changed the outcome?  If something(s) could have changed the outcome - what specifically could have changed the outcome from Clinton v. Trump?  If you answer is that we are all to blame, then what could/should we collectively, or any individual or group, have done differently between last summer and this summer to alter that outcome?
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Well the easy one is that Beau Biden doesn't develop brain cancer.  

Short of that, I don't know what on the Dem side. Bernie didn't connected with the African American or Hispanic communities early enough and by the time that became apparent, the nomination was effectively done.  

 
timschochet said:
538 has Hillary down to 60% (from 70 a week ago). 

One significant problem I heard yesterday: 41% of millennials who supported Bernie are now planning to vote for Gary Johnson. That's way too big a number. That alone could allow Trump to win this election. 

These kids don't like Hillary; they never have. But they don't seem to realize what the effect will be of their vote. Both Bernie and Warren are going to Ohio this weekend as part of a plan to reverse this trend; hopefully it's not too late. 
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Don't put this on millennial Bernie/GJ supporters.  Put up a better ####### candidate and this won't happen.  

 
Kaine on top of the ticket with Hillary as VP with the exact same policies and this is 100% over.  Everyone screamed how dumb it was to let her have the nomination, but nobody listened.  

It should have been clear how unlikable she was when she got run over by a mostly unknown junior Senator. 

When are the debates.  

 
So much for Hillary's sick time resolution.  She continues to react to every little thing Trump says and lets him control the media coverage.

 
culdeus said:
Kaine on top of the ticket with Hillary as VP with the exact same policies and this is 100% over.  Everyone screamed how dumb it was to let her have the nomination, but nobody listened.  

It should have been clear how unlikable she was when she got run over by a mostly unknown junior Senator. 

When are the debates.  
Click to expand...
She's difficult to like, but she ran into the two most likeable Democratic candidates since her husband.

 
Steve Tasker said:
Don't put this on millennial Bernie/GJ supporters.  Put up a better ####### candidate and this won't happen.  
Click to expand...
That's not the way politics works.  If millennials think their causes are better off under Trump than Hillary then they are in for a rude awakening.

 
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