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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (5 Viewers)

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timschochet said:
I really...don't know how to respond to this. No offense, but it's like you're living in a different reality.
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I think those not living in the reality are the ones that use the words racist, bigoted, sexist as pronouns.  Again, for the American Left, those words are used to suppress opposing thought, not because it's actually true.

You don't know how to respond to this, but you're able to contort yourself and respond with every excuse under the sun to protect Hillary - and the kicker is you're not astounded at that at all.

 
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timschochet said:
Wow. First Trump didn't say he saw Muslims in Lebanon celebrating. He saw American Muslims in New Jersey. And that did not happen. To make that accusation is absolutely a bigoted comment.

Second, Trump did not originally call for a ban from countries; that came later. He originally called for a ban on ALL MUSLIMS. I'm not sure if you're just being willfully ignorant here, though I don't see how you could have been unaware of this.
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There was celebrating in jersey city. He misrepresented the number saying hundreds when I believe it was 8 people but it did happen 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
And so would you not say that suggesting he was influenced by his wife's being paid (and therefor his being paid) would be fair?
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Guess I missed the all out war on the Gramms and the nonstop scrutiny - or on Mitch McConnell and his wife.

Saints I will give you this - Hillary smells, she smells like ####, she is constantly stepping in ####, she can't stay away from #### - while I don't have a white hot hatred I'm sick and tired of the ####. I'm struggling to vote for her - I'm going against right now. Looking to go outside somewhere for the first time in my Democratic life - I've been a Democrat since Nixon/McGovern days, - Democrats like Gary Hart, Pat Schroeder, **** Lamm, Roy Romer, Mayor Pena, Mayor Webb, John Hickenlooper - good Colorado Democrats from all walks of life who want to solve problems and do it fairly.It hurts me deeply. But It will never ever be Trump - no! there is where I will expend my white hot hatred - and you should too. You know it too.

What I'm tired of are people in this thread totally missing history and claiming the Clintons have never been scrutinized - it's not true at all. You asked for similar couples - I gave a few that deserved a bit more scrutiny but never got it because the House and Senate were run by the other side.

 
Rove! said:
Your second example refers to Muslims from other specific countries and not Muslim Americans.

your first example, I believe he conflated video of crowds of people celebrating in Muslim countries with news reports that some folks in Jersey City ( where the Blind Sheik and been located) were celebrating on a rooftop.  perhaps it was the fog of war...
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Trump was under sniper fire at the time, so we can excuse him for the mixing up the numbers. ;)

 
ffldrew said:
Guess I missed the all out war on the Gramms and the nonstop scrutiny - or on Mitch McConnell and his wife.

Saints I will give you this - Hillary smells, she smells like ####, she is constantly stepping in ####, she can't stay away from #### - while I don't have a white hot hatred I'm sick and tired of the ####. I'm struggling to vote for her - I'm going against right now. Looking to go outside somewhere for the first time in my Democratic life - I've been a Democrat since Nixon/McGovern days, - Democrats like Gary Hart, Pat Schroeder, **** Lamm, Roy Romer, Mayor Pena, Mayor Webb, John Hickenlooper - good Colorado Democrats from all walks of life who want to solve problems and do it fairly.It hurts me deeply. But It will never ever be Trump - no! there is where I will expend my white hot hatred - and you should too. You know it too.

What I'm tired of are people in this thread totally missing history and claiming the Clintons have never been scrutinized - it's not true at all. You asked for similar couples - I gave a few that deserved a bit more scrutiny but never got it because the House and Senate were run by the other side.
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They were good examples, I agree. Great post btw, thanks.

 
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If Gramm's wife runs for office and claims she will somehow be tough on Wall St, count me in on bringing my pitchfork there.  The wife of the president who actually signed the CFMA 2000 is actually running and deserves to have her bull#### called out.  :shrug:

 
timschochet said:
MaxThreshold said:
I do.  Simply stating he saw Muslims celebrating the attacks is not racist or bigoted.  I remember Muslims celebrating in Lebanon when 9/11 happened.  In fact, I believe Arafat had to send out his troops to clear the streets it looked so bad.

The donald called for a ban on immigration coming from countries compromised by terrorism and until the US can get some control over what's going on.  I'd say that's good policy, not racist or bigoted.
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Wow. First Trump didn't say he saw Muslims in Lebanon celebrating. He saw American Muslims in New Jersey. And that did not happen. To make that accusation is absolutely a bigoted comment.

Second, Trump did not originally call for a ban from countries; that came later. He originally called for a ban on ALL MUSLIMS. I'm not sure if you're just being willfully ignorant here, though I don't see how you could have been unaware of this.
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This started as a conversation about racism....in your reply you switched it to bigoted.  They're two different things.  I agree with you that the case is there for bigotry, but I disagree with your original assertion that it was racist.  Neither of these two events rise to the actual definition of racism, which I think is what Max's comment was originally....that it's thrown everywhere.  There's lots of "ists" out there that are thrown around the moment people disagree with each other.  Hell, I've been called a sexist because I won't vote for Hillary.  I've been called a racist because I didn't vote for Obama....it's a weak/lazy argument made by A LOT of people.  It's absurd.

 
timschochet said:
A big part of the scrutiny is because Hillary has been the subject of several scandals: Whitewater, Troopergate, the White House Travel Office, the death of Vince Foster, the supposed seizure of FBI files, the Lewinsky scandal (here she wasn't the main subject but was directly involved), Pardongate, and much later Benghazi and the email scandal. She has also been accused of having her enemies murdered, drug smuggling in Mena, Arkansas, and a host of other crimes. The Clinton Foundation has been charged with corruption. Hillary has also been accused (as most politicians are) of lying on a regular basis. She appears to be secretive and refuses to answer personal questions until she has to. This last element of her personality has only served to make the media more inquisitive.
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Sorta agree here, but I'd suggest the larger reason she is scrutinized is the way she handles the scandals.  Take the latest email fiasco.  This goes away for a lot of people like me if an unconditional "opps, my bad...it was a mistake and I didn't really realize what I was doing" approach was taken.  She chooses to be as shady and shifty as she possibly can.  That prompts people to poke around a bit longer.  The longer they poke around the more information is presented for processing.  This allows people to form all kinds of wild stories.  If I give you a cylinder and a wooden plank, there's only a few things you can make with them.  If I give you a cylinder, power tools, nails and a lumber yard, the sky's the limit.

 
Let's also not forget Hillary's lie about coming under sniper fire in Bosnia. Although unremarkable in terms of any damage done to a person or cause, it is an exemplar of the kind of tact she uses a lot in manufacturing a false, deceptive narrative about who she is, what she's done, etc. 

 
NCCommish said:
1) She is probably going to win in a squeaker. By less than 5 electoral votes.That's not me that's Nate Silver fwiw. So not so destroyed.

2) No. I see the country I served being handed over to oligarchs and their lackeys. No matter which of these losers win. I can't let that go. Nobody should be able to.
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This.  This.  A thousand times this!!!!

 
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 

 
SaintsInDome2006 said:
Go sell a piece of real estate as agent and have your wife placed as the buying agent.

Do you think that transaction and you and your wife might receive some scrutiny?

That's the Clintons over and over again.
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There's nothing inherently unethical about that situation.  My wife handles both sides of transactions all the time.

 
Dammit Tobias, now you have me giving Hillary consideration.  

That said, I'm sure Squiz or Tim will pull me back off that ledge soon.  :D

 
Slapdash said:
Clinton hitting new lows in the 538 forecast today...
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It's a neck and neck race.  The debates will be important.  Assange's October surprise might be important.  Hillary's health will be important, too, regardless; if she projects good health and strength, she recovers with the electorate, but if she cancels more gigs, stumbles, falls, and/or otherwise presents as physically unfit for the most grueling 4-year job in the land, then I'd say her chances are slim.

 
timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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Oh, but that month though.

 
Rove! said:
Your second example refers to Muslims from other specific countries and not Muslim Americans.

your first example, I believe he conflated video of crowds of people celebrating in Muslim countries with news reports that some folks in Jersey City ( where the Blind Sheik and been located) were celebrating on a rooftop.  perhaps it was the fog of war...
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There was some conflation going on with the Iran hostages when Trump was confused about whether he saw hostages or money on the plane. He just routinely "sees" and "remembers" stuff that never happened (but may have a basis for confusion).

Was there a scene below that caused Trump to be confused about his memory of Muslim celebration?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6iPZ4eETDo

* Sometimes he no doubt is mistaken and misremembers (he has a lot of plates he's trying to keep spinning). I have a hard time believing he is "mistaken" or "misremembers" that he has been spewing the birther nonsense the past half decade AFTER it was resolved. It just isn't expedient for him to admit to him any more, so he is trying to pretend it didn't happen (some voters are too busy or disinterested to check, so the lie stands - though the media is blitzkrieging this message and it will be hard for the public to miss/ignore it). I have a hard time believing this was the cause of his dissembling and being slow to disavow David Dukes and his KKK connections. Maybe he thought at the time it was politically expedient to not do so, than after doing a rudimentary cost/benefit tradeoff analysis, came to the obvious conclusion it could do a lot more harm than good (clearly that demographic wasn't going anywhere, why alienate broad swaths of the rest of the electorate).

Like with Democrats, there must inevitably be racists and non-racists in the mix. In theory, it isn't necessary for him to be racist (though there can't be much question given even a cursory look at his past), to be able to opportunistically exploit and trigger different groups regardless of motivation, whether pushing racism or fear buttons (the wall, immigration, ISIS). Aside from the "he really means well" interpretation, and his being unintentionally forgetful (regarding "seeing" and "remembering" thing that didn't happen), more cynical interpretations are that he is a racist and is exploiting racist issues OR that he isn't personally a racist but is aware they are out there and is opportunistically exploiting those issues. Except, in the latter scenario, that in itself pretty much would DEFINE a racist act. What else could it be if he was consciously, intentionally causing harm along racial lines and based on those grounds by triggering and activating hot button issues in others he supposedly didn't believe himself?            

 
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timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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Tim,

Serious question to you.  You are a very smart guy, (and I'm indebted to you for giving me some great books to read lately! ).

Since a Trump presidency has moved to a point where it's a distinct possibility, what do you really think would be the result?

I mean, I see a lot of "he's a bigot, he's racist", but that doesn't really mean a whole lot in terms of the results of his presidency. None of these people are fine upstanding individuals.

Hes being asked to be the president, which is a job just as a CEO is a job.  What specific things do you think would happen if he were president?

 
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Mr. Ham said:
timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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Oh, but that month though.
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One great month and 47 crappy months >>> 48 crappy months.

eta - Probably would get two months.

 
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timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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I will have no satisfaction, only sheer panic and depression, and I will be blaming you and people like you for it.

 
Smack Tripper said:
There was celebrating in jersey city. He misrepresented the number saying hundreds when I believe it was 8 people but it did happen 
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Didn't he say/imply he saw it on TV? If so, and the footage is out there, pretty sure it would have been produced. I'm going to go with it doesn't exist. So he couldn't have seen it like he said. Is he conflating something he HEARD? And he said thousands, not hundreds. Could anybody confuse eight people with thousands (not likely on something he SAW, which he claims, possibly he heard somebody say "lots" of people were celebrating, meaning eight or so, but in his mind he conjured up a cast of thousands like an extras scene in the Ten Commandments or Ben Hur)? VISUAL MEMORY-WISE, that isn't really credible apart from drugs/hallucinations/psychosis. So what does that leave?

Trump is a fabulist. A story teller, a weaver of tall tales that he frequently embellishes (in a deposition, he claimed to not remember stating he had the world's greatest memory), and even brags about as part of his self-promotional tool kit - he has just expanded it to the campaign platform. An important distinction, should we necessarily assume he is an innocent, harmless fabulist? Or one that is purposefully doing so for opportunistic and exploitive reasons. Because it would in some ways be convenient for his campaign if it were true, that could be useful in riling up emotions (how dare those ingrates, lets ban and deport them!). As was said a while ago by the Art of the Deal ghost writer, Trump has an atypical relationship with the truth. If he wants it to be, it is, or should be. Maybe he can sell it to himself by thinking, it probably happened, so that is practically the same thing, I'm telling the truth. He at times bends "truth" and reality to his aims and purposes.     

"I watched in Jersey City, N.J., where thousands and thousands of people were cheering" as the World Trade Center collapsed.    
— Donald Trump on Saturday, November 21st, 2015 in comments during a speech

 
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timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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What is your timeline for when those that supported rigging the nomination in favor of a corrupt candidate realize their role in all of this?

 
BassNBrew said:
One great month and 47 crappy months >>> 48 crappy months.

eta - Probably would get two months.
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I jest.  There is a small part of me that wants to see Hillary lose to gloat.  She deserves to lose, and everyone who supported her deserves to stew in the "you just don't get it" of it all.  But Trump as a consolation is so dangerous, horrible and un-American it can't be in any way worth the toilet flush to be left with the cappiest commode on the planet.  Depression has set it in.  Why, why did you have to let the DNC hijack democracy to push this monstrosity?  Why!?

 
shader said:
Tim,

Serious question to you.  You are a very smart guy, (and I'm indebted to you for giving me some great books to read lately! ).

Since a Trump presidency has moved to a point where it's a distinct possibility, what do you really think would be the result?

I mean, I see a lot of "he's a bigot, he's racist", but that doesn't really mean a whole lot in terms of the results of his presidency. None of these people are fine upstanding individuals.

Hes being asked to be the president, which is a job just as a CEO is a job.  What specific things do you think would happen if he were president?
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Oh....he's not going to answer those kinds of questions, just know Trump is going to be "dangerous"

 
timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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It will be similar of the election goes the other way.....i think ink the amount of damage Trump could do will be muted by his inexperience.  With Clinton, her connections run too deep and she knows too many secrets and has too much sway over people in the media and her corruption network is so vast that there is no limit to the damage she can do. one term of SoS and it was a disaster.  No need to go through country by country, and regurgitate the bloody consequences.  Thiis a person who alos has said that as President she wants to shape our children.  She has said that some journalistic enterprises don't have a right to exist.  These are thing she says publicly and proudly.  I can't imagine what it's like privately and how intense that thirst for power truly is is.

 
timschochet said:
If Donald Trump wins there will no doubt be a lot of people here who will take grim satisfaction, and there will be even be some people here who are not Trump fans yet who will be glad of the fact because they will see the rejection of Hillary Clinton as a rejection of the Establishment and corruption. And there will be a lot of "I told you so!" And all of the Hillary fans like myself will be mocked, and the media will be mocked, and all of the experts, and that too will be highly satisfying for some of you. 

And then a month will go by and buyers remorse will set in, but it will be too late. 
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The only good outcome is if neither Hillary nor Trump win. I really don't care about different degrees of bad outcomes, so my remorse if Trump wins is no different than my remorse if Hillary wins. 

That said, given she's the leader, the more Hillary drops, the better Johnson's chances are. So yeah, I have "satisfaction" in seeing her drop. I put it in quotes, because I view it as being hope for the future of our country. This election isn't about me personally.

 
shader said:
Tim,

Serious question to you.  You are a very smart guy, (and I'm indebted to you for giving me some great books to read lately! ).

Since a Trump presidency has moved to a point where it's a distinct possibility, what do you really think would be the result?

I mean, I see a lot of "he's a bigot, he's racist", but that doesn't really mean a whole lot in terms of the results of his presidency. None of these people are fine upstanding individuals.

Hes being asked to be the president, which is a job just as a CEO is a job.  What specific things do you think would happen if he were president?
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Here's a long article that explores what Trump's first term might be like. All sorts of people are interviewed, including those very close to him and political experts: 

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

Try to read it on an empty stomach...

 
shader said:
Why?  I'm intrigued by this viewpoint.  What on earth about Trump being the president would make you panic and get depressed?
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I wouldn't even know where to begin when answering this.  If you're really asking I don't think I'd be able to explain it to you anyway so I'll just wave. :bye:

 
timschochet said:
Here's a long article that explores what Trump's first term might be like. All sorts of people are interviewed, including those very close to him and political experts: 

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/09/26/president-trumps-first-term

Try to read it on an empty stomach...
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It reads like an article designed to promote fear and it's one-sided.

Im trying to be serious here.  Name 3-5 of the biggest worries you have over what would actually happen in a Trump presidency.

 
Willie Neslon said:
I wouldn't even know where to begin when answering this.  If you're really asking I don't think I'd be able to explain it to you anyway so I'll just wave. :bye:
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You can't explain why?  I'm not a Trump supporter and I have no preconceived notions. If you aren't fear-mongering, just explain what would depress you and cause you to "panic"?

 
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