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Official Hillary Clinton 2016 thread (8 Viewers)

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timschochet said:
It also ignores the evidence of this thread. If anybody wants to, they can go back and look at how many people predicted Hillary would lose, that this or that would be the end of her campaign, and some of it long before Trump ever got the nomination. (Later on some of the best conversation was whether or not, after Trump defeated Hillary, I should be blamed. At least two posters argued vehemently that it was my fault.) 

Now many of these same people are telling us that Hillary is the luckiest campaigner in history, how anyone would have defeated Trump, how she would be crushed by any one else, etc. The truth is the opposite: Hillary is unlucky, or she would have been elected President in 2008. She lost then because a man of extraordinary talent and charisma challenged her. There was no one like that this time around, so she is going to win. 
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She's running against the single worst candidate in modern history by any reasonable standard.  Her opponent is widely perceived as human garbage by people in his own party.  You are delusional if you don't think she caught a huge break here.  Again, Hillary's staffers get this even if you dont.  She seems to have some fairly astute people around her.

Edit: Some of these leaked emails make me feel a little better about the quality of the staff Hillary is likely to assemble.  These folks know what they're doing.  Hillary would be well advised to listen to them, but that's Hillary for you.

 
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Bottomfeeder Sports said:
You guys are judging Hillary on e-mails where she wasn't part of the conversation to Hillary.  Kind of like many of the emails that the FBI recovered...

You guys do realize that this email does not offer evidence that this advice was ever offered.  If it was it does not offer any reason why it was "ignored".  And ultimately Hillary got to October (2015) just fine.  I realize that Hillary haters like to believe that  Bernie screwed this up - he did not.  She has also arrived at October 2016 in pretty good shape.  I realize that Hillary haters like to believe that any half decent Republican candidate would have walked to the presidency, but ignoring the oxymoron this ignores that Trump's unique appeal in the rust belt is the one of the main reasons there was even a path to 270. 
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This is terrible analysis and I regret trying to agree with you earlier.  

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
You guys are judging Hillary on e-mails where she wasn't part of the conversation to Hillary.  Kind of like many of the emails that the FBI recovered...

You guys do realize that this email does not offer evidence that this advice was ever offered.  If it was it does not offer any reason why it was "ignored".  And ultimately Hillary got to October (2015) just fine.  I realize that Hillary haters like to believe that  Bernie screwed this up - he did not.  She has also arrived at October 2016 in pretty good shape.  I realize that Hillary haters like to believe that any half decent Republican candidate would have walked to the presidency, but ignoring the oxymoron this ignores that Trump's unique appeal in the rust belt is the one of the main reasons there was even a path to 270. 
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No idea what "this" is that has to do with Bernie.  We're talking about a significant character flaw that has been well established, even by her supporters for a long time.  I'm comfortable betting my life savings on the fact that this flaw has been brought to Hillary's attention in the past.  She just doesn't care and the people close to her who know her well seem to give us a little insight as to why.

No idea why you're bringing up the GOP.  This had nothing to do with them and was specific to Hillary.  I assume it's an attempt at changing the subject.  It's true that Hillary is in good shape (for becoming President) but that doesn't invalidate the criticism.  This ####show would probably be less of a ####show if the two least liked candidates of our time did something to actually give us a reason to vote FOR them outside of "At least I am not him/her".

 
The Commish said:
No idea what "this" is that has to do with Bernie.  We're talking about a significant character flaw that has been well established, even by her supporters for a long time.  I'm comfortable betting my life savings on the fact that this flaw has been brought to Hillary's attention in the past.  She just doesn't care and the people close to her who know her well seem to give us a little insight as to why.

No idea why you're bringing up the GOP.  This had nothing to do with them and was specific to Hillary.  I assume it's an attempt at changing the subject.  It's true that Hillary is in good shape (for becoming President) but that doesn't invalidate the criticism.  This ####show would probably be less of a ####show if the two least liked candidates of our time did something to actually give us a reason to vote FOR them outside of "At least I am not him/her".
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They nixed a joke someone wanted to tell about Sanders.

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/1630

 
The Commish said:
No idea what "this" is that has to do with Bernie.  We're talking about a significant character flaw that has been well established, even by her supporters for a long time.  I'm comfortable betting my life savings on the fact that this flaw has been brought to Hillary's attention in the past.  She just doesn't care and the people close to her who know her well seem to give us a little insight as to why.

No idea why you're bringing up the GOP.  This had nothing to do with them and was specific to Hillary.  I assume it's an attempt at changing the subject.  It's true that Hillary is in good shape (for becoming President) but that doesn't invalidate the criticism.  This ####show would probably be less of a ####show if the two least liked candidates of our time did something to actually give us a reason to vote FOR them outside of "At least I am not him/her".
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Hillary's success as a candidate is what actually determines whether she showed good judgment in listening to her campaign advisers.  Your preference are rather irrelevant unless you are the decisive vote (directly or indirectly).   Oh, and how Hillary has run this campaign so far is pretty damn good reason to vote for her.

 
Kyle GriffinVerified account ‏@kylegriffin1 2h2 hours ago

Quite the contrast in responses to the NC GOP attack:

Hillary Clinton ‏@HillaryClinton 3h3 hours ago


The attack on the Orange County HQ @NCGOP office is horrific and unacceptable.

Very grateful that everyone is safe
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Donald J. TrumpVerified account ‏@realDonaldTrump 2h2 hours ago


Animals representing Hillary Clinton and Dems in North Carolina just firebombed

our office in Orange County because we are winning @NCGOP
Click to expand...



 
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For a moment I thought this was Orange County, CA.  I am not sure Tim's alibi of updating his fantasy lineup would have held up. 

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Hillary's success as a candidate is what actually determines whether she showed good judgment in listening to her campaign advisers.  Your preference are rather irrelevant unless you are the decisive vote (directly or indirectly).   Oh, and how Hillary has run this campaign so far is pretty damn good reason to vote for her.
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:lmao:  She's running against literally the worst candidate ever.  Of course she's winning.  That doesn't determine ####.  

 
Politician Spock said:
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Hillary's success as a candidate is what actually determines whether she showed good judgment in listening to her campaign advisers. 
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Oh bull! She wouldn't have gotten anywhere in politics if she wasn't married to Bill.
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And this is somehow relevant to whether or not Hillary showed poor judgment in accepting the advice of someone in an email chain that Hillary was not a part of? 

 
timschochet said:
(Later on some of the best conversation was whether or not, after Trump defeated Hillary, I should be blamed. At least two posters argued vehemently that it was my fault.) 
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The dems nominating their worst candidate in history is your fault. Your historic flaw of ignoring the obvious while berating your misguided belief is the entire reason why this thread exists and has as many posts as it does. 

I wonder if some day when you are old and gray you will look back and read some of the things you posted and think "oh god....", but I doubt it. I think you are going to your grave with a keyboard in your hands and another misguided agenda to spew. 

 
Bottomfeeder Sports said:
Hillary's success as a candidate is what actually determines whether she showed good judgment in listening to her campaign advisers.  Your preference are rather irrelevant unless you are the decisive vote (directly or indirectly).   Oh, and how Hillary has run this campaign so far is pretty damn good reason to vote for her.
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Quite the simplistic and low bar to set.  I sorta expect a little more out of you.  For me, it takes more than beating up on an idiot like Trump to prove good judgment, but we all have our criteria, so I guess your preferences are as relevant as mine :shrug:  

 
Rohn Jambo said:
What to do with the Goldman speeches?... Hey, what about the Deutsche Bank one?

https://wikileaks.org/podesta-emails/emailid/8086
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She's telling them directly to their faces she wants to follow in TR's footsteps:

I mean, Teddy Roosevelt said it well. His commonsense slogan, the square  deal, captured the American imagination and still resonates today.

Just think about the changes that were going on at the turn of the last  century: technological transformation, growing economic inequality, the steady accumulation of vast power and wealth in the hands of a select few.

Roosevelt was a Republican from the party of big business, but he resisted  both the elites who sought to protect their gilded age advantages and the  rising tide of populist anger that threatened to sweep the nation.  Instead, he stood up for the level playing field, no special deals, just a  fair shot for everybody willing to get out there and work hard.

I think that's a message worth recalling today when so many hardworking American families, and I add European families feel like they're falling  further and further behind, while they see, in their view, the playing  field becoming more unlevel, and feeling as though it doesn't matter how  hard they work because the game is rigged against them.
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Politician Spock said:
The dems nominating their worst candidate in history is your fault. Your historic flaw of ignoring the obvious while berating your misguided belief is the entire reason why this thread exists and has as many posts as it does. 

I wonder if some day when you are old and gray you will look back and read some of the things you posted and think "oh god....", but I doubt it. I think you are going to your grave with a keyboard in your hands and another misguided agenda to spew. 
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:D

 
People in here still pretending Hillary won the primary on her own? New emails make it clear her campaign was coordinating with the White House through John Podesta to affect legislation they thought would make Bernie's case.  Leaning on senators to kill a bill that would have passed otherwise. The irony? It was bill with donors fingerprints all over it and would have made it pretty clear money is running the government. It took hurting Hillary's primary chances to stop it.

And people here are still acting like everything is awesome and on the up and up. None so blind as those who will not see.

 
NCCommish said:
People in here still pretending Hillary won the primary on her own? New emails make it clear her campaign was coordinating with the White House through John Podesta to affect legislation they thought would make Bernie's case.  Leaning on senators to kill a bill that would have passed otherwise. The irony? It was bill with donors fingerprints all over it and would have made it pretty clear money is running the government. It took hurting Hillary's primary chances to stop it.

And people here are still acting like everything is awesome and on the up and up. None so blind as those who will not see.
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NC, NC, .... who exactly is being blind here?

The reason Hillary defeated Bernie Sanders in the primary is because she got the vast majority of black people in the South to vote for her. That's the same way that Obama beat Hillary in 2008. Whoever locks up the black vote in the South will always win, because (a) there aren't enough white Democrats in the South and (b) it creates too big a lead and there's no way for anybody to catch up.

You KNOW this. I know you do. You can despise Hillary with the heat of a thousand suns if you want, and you can complain about collusion, and what the DNC did, and what the White House did. But the fact is that so long as she got the southern Black vote she was going to win anyhow. Why not just admit it?

 
squistion said:
Not pretending, Bucko. Just count the votes.
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There is one thing Trump gets right, the system was rigged against Bernie. Every day more info comes out proving it. And every day Hillary supporters have to put their head in the sand a little further. Soon they'll have nothing showing but their feet.

 
NCCommish said:
There is one thing Trump gets right, the system was rigged against Bernie. Every day more info comes out proving it. And every day Hillary supporters have to put their head in the sand a little further. Soon they'll have nothing showing but their feet.
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Only in the sense that it is "rigged" against any outsider, non-Democrat. As it should be.

 
timschochet said:
NC, NC, .... who exactly is being blind here?

The reason Hillary defeated Bernie Sanders in the primary is because she got the vast majority of black people in the South to vote for her. That's the same way that Obama beat Hillary in 2008. Whoever locks up the black vote in the South will always win, because (a) there aren't enough white Democrats in the South and (b) it creates too big a lead and there's no way for anybody to catch up.

You KNOW this. I know you do. You can despise Hillary with the heat of a thousand suns if you want, and you can complain about collusion, and what the DNC did, and what the White House did. But the fact is that so long as she got the southern Black vote she was going to win anyhow. Why not just admit it?
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No I don't actually. I do know Bernie was still in a position to take the race after the south voted.

 
NCCommish said:
There is one thing Trump gets right, the system was rigged against Bernie. Every day more info comes out proving it. And every day Hillary supporters have to put their head in the sand a little further. Soon they'll have nothing showing but their feet.
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And every day if you can count, Hillary still has 3,700,000 more votes than Bernie.

 
The other problem with Bernie is that his main base was college students who liked the idea that they wouldn't have to pay back their college loans. But these people don't vote. If they did, Bernie Sanders would not only be the nominee, he'd be the next President.

 
NCCommish said:
No I don't actually. I do know Bernie was still in a position to take the race after the south voted.
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No he wasn't. He won a string of caucuses later on to make a comeback, and he had a surprise win in Michigan,  but the fact is that he was pretty well finished after the south got done voting.

 
timschochet said:
Only in the sense that it is "rigged" against any outsider, non-Democrat. As it should be.
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Running as a Democrat. The DNC by it's own bylaws doesn't get to play favorites.

You know Hillary is going to disappoint just about every supporter in this thread, except you. The people here who claim to be liberals are not going to be happy. But you're a country club republican and you are going to be thrilled. Every "progressive" on this board who comes in here and agrees with you on voting for Hillary really ought to consider why you have been up her ### since day one. It isn't because you believe in liberal causes. You denigrate them regularly. Like Hillary in her private opinions.

 
NCCommish said:
Running as a Democrat. The DNC by it's own bylaws doesn't get to play favorites.

You know Hillary is going to disappoint just about every supporter in this thread, except you. The people here who claim to be liberals are not going to be happy. But you're a country club republican and you are going to be thrilled. Every "progressive" on this board who comes in here and agrees with you on voting for Hillary really ought to consider why you have been up her ### since day one. It isn't because you believe in liberal causes. You denigrate them regularly. Like Hillary in her private opinions.
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That's a little unfair. I don't disagree with all of YOUR causes. But I believe in protecting abortion rights. I hate what Texas is doing. I want liberal SC judges. I'm terrified about climate change and I want action on that issue. I want amnesty for illegal immigrants in this country and a general loosening on border restrictions. I want the anti-Muslim rhetoric to go away. I want to help people who suffer economically in the inner city and I want to defeat institutionalized racism among our police. And I want women, gays, transgenders, and all minorities treated with equality, decency, and respect.

I think these things are important to Hillary, and they're important to me. And I wouldn't say any of them are particularly conservative.

 
timschochet said:
The other problem with Bernie is that his main base was college students who liked the idea that they wouldn't have to pay back their college loans. But these people don't vote. If they did, Bernie Sanders would not only be the nominee, he'd be the next President.
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This is bull#### of the highest order straight from the Hillary propaganda file. The reality is Hillary's voters tend to be more socially conservative. This is why Bernie performed better with younger minority voters they are more liberal than there parents. This is why he did better with minorities outside the south where they tend to be more socially conservative. This si why he crushed her with voters under 45. Real young there by the way. Conservatives of all stripes love them some Hillary, She is so liberal.

 
NCCommish said:
This is bull#### of the highest order straight from the Hillary propaganda file. The reality is Hillary's voters tend to be more socially conservative. This is why Bernie performed better with younger minority voters they are more liberal than there parents. This is why he did better with minorities outside the south where they tend to be more socially conservative. This si why he crushed her with voters under 45. Real young there by the way. Conservatives of all stripes love them some Hillary, She is so liberal.
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I actually agree with you about most of this. Especially the part about blacks in the south, older ones, being more conservative. (Seems like everyone in the South is more conservative.) But it doesn't contradict what I wrote.

 
timschochet said:
That's a little unfair. I don't disagree with all of YOUR causes. But I believe in protecting abortion rights. I hate what Texas is doing. I want liberal SC judges. I'm terrified about climate change and I want action on that issue. I want amnesty for illegal immigrants in this country and a general loosening on border restrictions. I want the anti-Muslim rhetoric to go away. I want to help people who suffer economically in the inner city and I want to defeat institutionalized racism among our police. And I want women, gays, transgenders, and all minorities treated with equality, decency, and respect.

I think these things are important to Hillary, and they're important to me. And I wouldn't say any of them are particularly conservative.
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So was block granting Welfare programs, which Hillary aggressively campaigned for, how she showed her compassion for minorities? I mean what's roughly 25% of the people who qualify for help not getting it due to funding shortfalls? Mainly affecting minority women and children.

Is her concern for global warming why she so aggressively pushes fracking?

Yeah her support for gay people is why she made so many speeches telling everybody not to support gay marriage. Until the polls told her she wouldn't be president if she didn't "evolve".

Her deeds don't match your words.

 
NCCommish said:
So was block granting Welfare programs, which Hillary aggressively campaigned for, how she showed her compassion for minorities? I mean what's roughly 25% of the people who qualify for help not getting it due to funding shortfalls? Mainly affecting minority women and children.

Is her concern for global warming why she so aggressively pushes fracking?

Yeah her support for gay people is why she made so many speeches telling everybody not to support gay marriage. Until the polls told her she wouldn't be president if she didn't "evolve".

Her deeds don't match your words.
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1. I don't agree with her on welfare programs. 

2. I'm torn on the issue of fracking. I don't think it's problematic in terms of climate change (in fact moving from coal to natural gas is probably a step in the right direction) but it appears to have its own environmental problems. I want to study this issue more. 

3. I agree with your criticism regarding Hillary and gay marriage and I've made the point here several times. But I'm confident she'll appoint liberal justices that will protect gay rights now that they are in place. 

Cant remember who said perfect shouldnt be the enemy of good. I think that Hillary is good, but that doesn't mean she's flawed. 

 
timschochet said:
1. I don't agree with her on welfare programs. 

2. I'm torn on the issue of fracking. I don't think it's problematic in terms of climate change (in fact moving from coal to natural gas is probably a step in the right direction) but it appears to have its own environmental problems. I want to study this issue more. 

3. I agree with your criticism regarding Hillary and gay marriage and I've made the point here several times. But I'm confident she'll appoint liberal justices that will protect gay rights now that they are in place. 

Cant remember who said perfect shouldnt be the enemy of good. I think that Hillary is good, but that doesn't mean she's flawed. 
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Yeah I mean fracking results in earthquakes and tap water you can set on fire not to mention degrading our national groundwater supply and that's before we get into the methane problem. So yeah I can see how it would be hard to decide if fracking is good or bad for the environment.

BTW with the decrease in cost of solar generated electricity there is no longer a need to bridge anything. Solar is competitive today and it will only get cheaper. Batteries have come a long way as well with storage getting cheaper. Once we get mass production the costs will plummet. We don't need natural gas. The only people that need us to use gas for as long as possible are fossil fuel companies and utilities. So they can make a dime. And they sure do pay their politicians well.

 
NCCommish said:
So was block granting Welfare programs, which Hillary aggressively campaigned for, how she showed her compassion for minorities? I mean what's roughly 25% of the people who qualify for help not getting it due to funding shortfalls? Mainly affecting minority women and children.

Is her concern for global warming why she so aggressively pushes fracking?

Yeah her support for gay people is why she made so many speeches telling everybody not to support gay marriage. Until the polls told her she wouldn't be president if she didn't "evolve".

Her deeds don't match your words.
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Hillary publicly favored the welfare reform bill but she had no hand in writing nor passing it.  Saying things for political reasons is her way of doing business (i.e. Machiavellian).  Like it or not, the way the Clintons changed the public's image of the Democratic Party has led to the Party winning soon to be 3 straight Presidential elections.  Could have been 5 if not for the fluke of the 2000 election.

Even Obama played the gay marriage game.  We all knew he was for it but publicly kept dancing around the issue until it was politically safe to support.

I know you hate fracking but there are hard choices.  Without fracking we become more dependent on foreign oil and are more likely to getting involved in war in the Middle East.  It's possible to support fracking temporarily until renewable energy becomes more widespread.

 
cstu said:
Hillary publicly favored the welfare reform bill but she had no hand in writing nor passing it.  Saying things for political reasons is her way of doing business (i.e. Machiavellian).  Like it or not, the way the Clintons changed the public's image of the Democratic Party has led to the Party winning soon to be 3 straight Presidential elections.  Could have been 5 if not for the fluke of the 2000 election.

Even Obama played the gay marriage game.  We all knew he was for it but publicly kept dancing around the issue until it was politically safe to support.

I know you hate fracking but there are hard choices.  Without fracking we become more dependent on foreign oil and are more likely to getting involved in war in the Middle East.  It's possible to support fracking temporarily until renewable energy becomes more widespread.
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She and Bill have made a career of cutting social programs going back to Arkansas. You sell it as a team then equally at fault. Can't have it both ways.

As to fracking we don't need it. Per kilowatt cost solar is no more expensive than fossil fuels or nuclear. And as we put up more panels then the costs drop further. But under Obama, despite all his talk, subsidies have increased for fossil fuels. And it should be remembered that fossil fuels have subsidies written into the tax code as permanent. Coal has been subsidized in this country for nearly 300 years. It started out tax free completely. It cost over 500 dollars a barrel in today's dollars to get oil out of the ground when it was first discovered here. The government subsidized the hell out of it. And still does. If we put that same weight behind renewables then we could do what the scientists are telling us we must. Leave it in the ground. We already passed 400 ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere, that's likely a new permanent thing. We have to do something and we have to do it now.

By the way battery storage is improving rapidly. Electric transportation is on the way. We could make it happen even faster if we wanted to. We could be fossil fuel free a lot quicker than many would have you believe. Then the Middle East can go screw itself.

 
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NCCommish said:
She and Bill have made a career of cutting social programs going back to Arkansas. You sell it as a team then equally at fault. Can't have it both ways.

As to fracking we don't need it. Per kilowatt cost solar is no more expensive than fossil fuels or nuclear. And as we put up more panels then the costs drop further. But under Obama, despite all his talk, subsidies have increased for fossil fuels. And it should be remembered that fossil fuels have subsidies written into the tax code as permanent. Coal has been subsidized in this country for nearly 300 years. It started out tax free completely. It cost over 500 dollars a barrel in today's dollars to get oil out of the ground when it was first discovered here. The government subsidized the hell out of it. And still does. If we put that same weight behind renewables then we could do what the scientists are telling us we must. Leave it in the ground. We already passed 400 ppm of CO2 in our atmosphere, that's likely a new permanent thing. We have to do something and we have to do it now.

By the way battery storage is improving rapidly. Electric transportation is on the way. We could make it happen even faster if we wanted to. We could be fossil fuel free a lot quicker than many would have you believe. Then the Middle East can go screw itself.
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Fine, let's say she's to blame for cutting welfare...IMO it had to be done to get Democrats back into power.   Would you rather have had a GHWB second term and Bob Dole in 1996?  It's very possible if Democrats stayed on the same path. 

We're on the same page as far as getting of fossil fuels.  If I were dictator of the U.S. I would create a Manhattan Project to do it in 10 years.  I believe our dependence on oil is our #1 national security risk. 

Where we differ on this are the political realities facing the President. Obama had done relatively little (in terms of the overall scope of the problem) but has faced criticism every step of the way.  The sad part is I don't know how much more he could have done and still keep the Democratic Party in the position it's in.  What I looking to get out of Hillary is a continued push toward renewable energy to weaken the power the Middle East has over us.

I consider CO2 levels a medium-to-long term issue.  What I see from climate scientists is alarmism that does more harm than good.  Yes, rising CO2 levels are a problem (albeit not as big as climate change scientists claim) but in a couple decades we will look back and laugh at our current renewable energy technology.  Research, not alarmism, is the key to solving the CO2 problem. 

Between battery storage technology as you said, hydrogen fuel cell technology, and the holy grail in my opinion of LTFR nuclear reactors I believe we'll be fine in 20 years.  And that doesn't even take into account unforeseen breakthroughs that we can't even imagine yet.  Let's just not blow the planet up in the meantime.

 
timschochet said:
The reason Hillary defeated Bernie Sanders in the primary is because she got the vast majority of black people in the South to vote for her.
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voters <> people

Of course, that is a great thing to establishment tools like yourself

 
NCCommish said:
There is one thing Trump gets right, the system was rigged against Bernie. Every day more info comes out proving it. And every day Hillary supporters have to put their head in the sand a little further. Soon they'll have nothing showing but their feet.
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Not a Hillary supporter.  Is my head also in the sand when I say, stop it? 

Please. You are doing a greater disservice to your causes, to democracy, to the Liberal base, than you recognize, almost to the point of being obtuse. 

You are left of me, but I've always respected your perspective.  Please find a way to take a step back and perhaps reclaim some of that perspective.  Feeding into the "rigged election", especially within the context of Trump and his dangerous rhetoric, does us all harm.  

 
Slapdash said:
voters <> people

Of course, that is a great thing to establishment tools like yourself
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Ok, easy there, let's walk it back a step.

No need to be calling out tim as a tool.  If only our nation had more people who are as passionate about the issues, even when knowing how others take umbrage with his approach.  

 
Koya said:
Ok, easy there, let's walk it back a step.

No need to be calling out tim as a tool.  If only our nation had more people who are as passionate about the issues, even when knowing how others take umbrage with his approach.  
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Trump's passionate and wrong on a majority of the issues just like Tim.

 
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