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***Official Jays Thread*** They spent $234 Million on this? (2 Viewers)

Eephus said:
Losing director of international scouting Ismael Cruz to the Dodgers may turn out to be a bigger loss than AA.
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A big loss, but what a great GM Anthopolous was turning out to be.

In addition to the team he built this season, look at the future payroll commitments for the Jays. There is incredible flexibility going forward here, on a team that has the best offense in baseball. They could go so many different directions after 2016 and because of AA they have that freedom, plus are a contender in 2016 and no really bad contracts (and the Tulo trade looks even better this evening...).

Of course he traded some prospects, so Shapiro wasn't a fan.

 
Toronto's minor league system has come through pretty big in the last couple years. They need pitching (who doesn't), but a lot of prospects are probably gonna be blocked. I don't think mid-season rentals are typically a good idea, but you have to balance that against some players you have in your system who really are expendable or, possibly, who you know aren't going to be as good as everyone thinks.

It also seems like Shapiro was pretty scummy about berating the front office staff, that's gotta be hard to take from an outsider.

 
Northern Voice said:
Eephus said:
Losing director of international scouting Ismael Cruz to the Dodgers may turn out to be a bigger loss than AA.
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I wonder how much the Jays being in the International spending penalty box affected this and how much is Dodgers throwing big money/opportunity.
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The Dodgers will be over their bonus pool limit as well. Finding unknown kids for $300K who will eventually develop is a better measure of a scout than just giving top dollar to the consensus top prospects.

 
2/26 for Estrada 11.5 this year, 14.5 next. Gives a little more flexibility this year vs. the QO would have, also gives the Jays three real SPs in Stroman, Estrada and Dickey, plus the Sanchez, Hutchison, Osuna ?'s.

This would have been instance 6 months ago but I'm actually very fine with it.

 
Have heard on 2 occasions in the last 2 days that Price is giving serious consideration to returning to Toronto. Not sure how legit this is, but something to cheer for!

 
5000 more season ticket packages sold vs. last year & more than double the number of flex packs... so tickets going to be a bit harder to come by than they were from 1996-July 2015.

 
Seekay said:
Iwakuma is

Northern Voice said:
Would have rather them signed Iwakuma for 3/45 than Happ for 3/36, though I prefer both to what Detroit paid Zimmerman.
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Iwakuma is 5 years older than Zimmerman and hasnt had a complete season in three years.
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...which is why the commitment to him is $65 million less. I just don't like the way Zimmermann's season went last year, plus he was the league's worst division, facing pitchers and is a few years removed from TJ. He'll probably be the best of the three this year and he might be next year, but I think all 3 of Happ/Iwakuma/Zimmermann are in danger of seeing their numbers fall off a cliff, so the 5/110 would be scary as hell to me as a Jays fan, where the owner isn't dying and there are (artificially) limited resources.

Also 2015 ERA/2015 FIP/'16 Steamer ERA/'16 Steamer FIP - not a huge gap here.

Iwakuma 3.54/3.74/3.39/3.46

Zimmermann 3.66/3.75/3.82/4.07

Happ 3.61/3.41/3.97/4.17

 
Northern Voice said:
Seekay said:
Iwakuma is

Northern Voice said:
Would have rather them signed Iwakuma for 3/45 than Happ for 3/36, though I prefer both to what Detroit paid Zimmerman.
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Iwakuma is 5 years older than Zimmerman and hasnt had a complete season in three years.
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...which is why the commitment to him is $65 million less. I just don't like the way Zimmermann's season went last year, plus he was the league's worst division, facing pitchers and is a few years removed from TJ. He'll probably be the best of the three this year and he might be next year, but I think all 3 of Happ/Iwakuma/Zimmermann are in danger of seeing their numbers fall off a cliff, so the 5/110 would be scary as hell to me as a Jays fan, where the owner isn't dying and there are (artificially) limited resources.

Also 2015 ERA/2015 FIP/'16 Steamer ERA/'16 Steamer FIP - not a huge gap here.

Iwakuma 3.54/3.74/3.39/3.46

Zimmermann 3.66/3.75/3.82/4.07

Happ 3.61/3.41/3.97/4.17
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Let's be honest...for the most part the Nationals were a train wreck last year. As a team they never the team everyone claimed they would be. I guess we will see about Zimmerman. Considering the total invested in Zimmerman was half the amount Price is getting paid. I think it's more than a fair contract and in fact is under market value.

As for those streamer number 3.97 ERA for Happ? Looking over his body of work the last 5 years. Maybe for a season and a third out of 5 he was that type of pitcher. So all of a sudden at age 33 He is going to outproduce his career numbers? Especially Rogers Centre for half his games?

I like Iwakuma and as a Tigers fan he was someone I would of been interested in, but like I said he is 34 currently. Not sure if I want to be paying him 15 million a year at 37-38 years of age. Then again Dodgers have money to throw away.

 
I think when they signed Happ for 3/$36,000,000 they mistakingly added an extra 0 at the end. Haha!

Jose Fernandez is apparently available. He's 23 and is a proven ace but he's coming off TJ. Do the Jays have a package that could get him? They say they want 5-6 young major league ready players.

I would drop Roberto Osuna, Aaron Sanchez, Dalton Pompey, Devon Travis and Drew Hutchison for him. Is it enough and would you do it?

 
Patrick the Pirate said:
I think when they signed Happ for 3/$36,000,000 they mistakingly added an extra 0 at the end. Haha!

Jose Fernandez is apparently available. He's 23 and is a proven ace but he's coming off TJ. Do the Jays have a package that could get him? They say they want 5-6 young major league ready players.

I would drop Roberto Osuna, Aaron Sanchez, Dalton Pompey, Devon Travis and Drew Hutchison for him. Is it enough and would you do it?
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Seriously?

 
Parmcat said:
Patrick the Pirate said:
I think when they signed Happ for 3/$36,000,000 they mistakingly added an extra 0 at the end. Haha!

Jose Fernandez is apparently available. He's 23 and is a proven ace but he's coming off TJ. Do the Jays have a package that could get him? They say they want 5-6 young major league ready players.

I would drop Roberto Osuna, Aaron Sanchez, Dalton Pompey, Devon Travis and Drew Hutchison for him. Is it enough and would you do it?
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Seriously?
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In a heartbeat.

Talked to a non BJ fan and he said it's not enough though. Dodgers would have to give up Seager, Pederson, Urias plus two more. That's a far more valuable package than the one I am proposing.

Aces are so valuable. If you had Fernandez, Stroman would be a great #2. In a playoff series, you could start those two 4 times, your odds of winning that series are extremely high. But if you are starting Stroman, Estrada, Dickey, Happ, Stroman, Estrada, Dickey in a 7 game series, odds are you don't win IMO.

 
True. But the Royals were a pretty strong team all around. Had a pretty solid lineup, played good D, had average starting pitching and a lights out bullpen.

All that I am saying is it would be nice to have an ace and making Stroman a strong #2.

 
Northern Voice said:
Revere traded for Drew Storen. Love this trade, especially w/Pompey/Saunders waiting for LF
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Agree 100%. I liked Revere, he was a big upgrade in LF last year but they weren't really using him to his full potential with only 9 attempted steals in 56 games.

An extra late inning arm is huge. Now they have some options. Sanchez can go to the rotation if they find a good deal for Dickey. Or they can leave him in the pen and have Sanchez, Storen, Osuna for 7,8,9.

 
Let's hope they don't trade for Jay Bruce...

Bautista said a whole lot today: http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb/bautista-contract-situation-really-about-blue-jays-future-direction/

Sportsnet





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Bautista contract situation really about Blue Jays’ future direction




 

Barry Davis, Shi Davidi and Arden Zwelling react to Jose Bautista’s comments on his contract and discuss the Blue Jays' options going forward.






SHI DAVIDI 
FEBRUARY 22, 2016, 10:35 PM
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DUNEDIN, Fla. – The decision faced by the Toronto Blue Jaysisn’t just about whether or not to ante up and meet Jose Bautista’s expectations for a new contract.

No, what they do with the all-star right-fielder is really about the direction the team plans to take in 2017 and beyond, the outlook on the competitive window it’s in right now, and how much they plan to spend on players moving forward.

After all, if the Blue Jays don’t believe they’re going to be a club ready to win beyond this year – and with 10 players, or 40 per cent of the roster, eligible for free agency next fall that’s no certainty – does it make sense to spend big on Bautista, or Edwin Encarnacion or anyone else?

Without a significant payroll hike from the current $140 million range, the answer is probably not, since with $84.5 million already committed to five players, another big contract would make it awfully tough to fill in the rest of the roster with enough talent to field a legitimate contender.







And so while Bautista’s big-boy business ploy provided some great theatre to Monday’s first workout for pitchers and catchers – he gave president Mark Shapiro and GM Ross Atkins his price, and the number is the number – what he’s really done is force the Blue Jays to address their bigger-picture issues.



Are they pushing on with Bautista as part of this core for 2017 and beyond, or do they regroup at season’s end and take a different approach? Only once that question is settled can the team decide if the 35-year-old will be worth the massive outlay, or if they’re happy reaping the remaining surplus value from an expiring contract that will have paid him $78 million over six years by season’s end.

Whichever route they choose, there’s no grey in what it’s going to take to retain Bautista, who didn’t reveal specifics but is no doubt eyeing a nine-figure deal after saying he expects to play five more seasons.

“I’m not willing to negotiate even right now,” he said. “I don’t think there should be any negotiation. I think I’ve proved myself and the question has been asked, what will it take, and I’ve given them an answer. It is what it is. I’m not going to sit here and try to bargain for a couple dollars.”

The Blue Jays and the ownership at Rogers Communications Inc., have had some time to digest the request, as Bautista said he delivered his evaluation of his worth on the market during a roughly 15 minute meeting he described as “great” two weeks ago in Toronto.

“I didn’t want to waste any time,” he said. “If this is going to happen, I think it should be natural, organic, quick and easy, it shouldn’t be a pull and tug about a few dollars here or there. I didn’t want to waste any time, I didn’t want to waste their time or their effort, so they can start planning ahead, and if it’s not going to happen they have plenty of time to do so. …

“There’s no negotiation, I told them what I wanted. They either meet it or it is what it is.”

Later, he added: “Since, there’s been very limited conversation had, because there were attempts at negotiation, which then I said, ‘This is not happening. You asked me what the number would be, and I gave it to you.’”

While to some eyes Bautista’s approach is intransigent, his hard-line stance may keep the will-he-won’t-he-sign speculation to a minimum by trying to bring about an end-game now. He’s left the ball firmly in the Blue Jays’ court, with their decision sealing the fate of his tenure in Toronto, since the closer a player gets to free agency, the less incentive he has to forego the open market.

While in theory the two sides could talk again in the fall once he becomes a free agent, the reality is players are very unlikely to stay put at that point. Bautista replied “I don’t know,” when asked if his number would still be valid at season’s end, and said “I don’t have a magic ball,” when asked if he’d still consider the Blue Jays should he end up on the market.

’m not trying to be pessimistic, I’m positive, and I think they know and realize the things that I say and agree with me, it’s just a matter of are they willing to go there,” said Bautista. “And it’s not just necessarily Ross and Mark, I can’t say that, I don’t know. Some of that decision-making on a contract the size that I presented has to come from ownership. How much? I don’t know. I don’t really know how long their rope is to make exclusive decisions on contracts like that.”

Such decisions are made by the ownership on any team, and Bautista challenged the assertion that finding the available funding would be an issue. In coming up with his number, he factored in what he believes is his full worth to the team on and off the field, and stressed that, “I know what my value is.”

“Baseball has a great way of measuring each player’s value and it’s about how much of that they’re willing to share with a player,” said Bautista. “I understand the business, I don’t believe in the whole budget and payroll, I don’t believe in any of that stuff, I know exactly how baseball works, especially a team that’s structured the way we are.”

To that end he dismissed the silly notion of a hometown discount – “that doesn’t exist, not in my world; in my eyes I’ve given this organization a five-year hometown discount already” – and is understandably looking to score big this time around.



The contract he signed in the spring of 2011, a $64-million, five-year deal that included a $14 million option for 2016, came after his breakout 2010 season, with little track record to suggest he’d continue to perform at such a high-level. This time around, he’s got five additional elite years to support his case.

“I maximized on a great season back then, I just happened to outplay the contract to an extreme, even though I had to deal with a few injuries and missed a good chunk of games,” said Bautista. “That sort of thing happens and I never once complained it, and I haven’t still. All I’m saying is that facts are facts, I did outplay that contract and it did come out to be that the team got a huge hometown discount. Not by design on anyone’s part – they took a gamble, that was a big a risk, Alex [Anthopoulos] took a lot of heat for that and I just came through. I’m not going to apologize for that.”

Bautista is now asking the Blue Jays to take another gamble, confident that if they don’t, another team surely will.
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Interesting article here on Jays offseason.

I hadn't thought of it in these terms but there is some truth to it. They seemed to be going hard after Bruce as a guy with 2 years on his contract who can play LF, but they had a guy who could play there and had been much better by any metric in Ben Revere and they traded him for 1 year of Drew Storen.

Okay, fine - they needed a guy for the back end of the bullpen, but they had a guy with 4 years of control and a better ERA/FIP/WAR Storen in Liam Hendrikx and they traded him for one year of Jesse Chavez.

Would this team be better this year with Revere/Hendriks than Storen/Chavez?  Long term it's 6 years total control vs. 2

I get that they need starting depth, but ideally Aaron Sanchez is the #5 starter and if he isn't, Chavez is still battling Floyd,Hernandez, Hutchison etc... and those same guys make him redundant if he isn't a starter.

 
Cliff Clavin said:
Oh, I don't necessarily think they should pay. Just love that he said it. 
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My current feeling is its probably a bad financial decision to pay him for his age 37-41 seasons, especially if more than 5/100 (which itself may be too much but I would do for emotional reasons)... but if they do end up not re-signing him, they better be prepared to back the truck full of money up to Josh Donaldson for an extension. Keith Law was asked about it in his chat today and said if the Jays are out of it in July and he's not extended, they should trade Bautista - but it doesn't mean the end of their competitive window if they make a smart trade because they still have a strong core in JD/EE/Tulo/Martin/Stroman, etc...

 
Northern Voice said:
My current feeling is its probably a bad financial decision to pay him for his age 37-41 seasons, especially if more than 5/100 (which itself may be too much but I would do for emotional reasons)... but if they do end up not re-signing him, they better be prepared to back the truck full of money up to Josh Donaldson for an extension. Keith Law was asked about it in his chat today and said if the Jays are out of it in July and he's not extended, they should trade Bautista - but it doesn't mean the end of their competitive window if they make a smart trade because they still have a strong core in JD/EE/Tulo/Martin/Stroman, etc...
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I agree. I do think he'll age well provided he stays healthy and 5/100ish wouldn't be too bad. Doesn't seem too far off market rate. Whether its a bad financial decision is a big can of worms. Rogers obviously has the finances to boost the payroll as they make a freaking killing off the team and they have 5 channels and a great big building that depends on the team over the summer. You let Bautista walk and the backlash could cost you more than paying a couple years of dead money to perhaps the greatest Jay ever.

I do like the idea of trading him at the deadline if things (pitching) are not going well but with his 10/5 rights, that is not necessarily up to them.

 
It's too bad we get so much of Zaun, Barker, Tabler, Howarth and Martinez talking nonsense, when they have Brunt, Davidi, Nicholson-Smith who actually use facts and analysis. Zwelling and Wilner too, though they may be a little too homerish.  When I type that out, it's crazy how many baseball guys Sportsnet employs.

 
It's insanity if he's not in there but there seem to be people who have followed the team all spring who think it will be Floyd.

Hopefully Sanchez's last great start was enough to finally put that to rest.

 
Sanchez #5 starter. Floyd and Chavez in the bullpen. Hutchison to AAA Buffalo. Hutch had a decent spring, not ready to write him off yet. Sanchez basically just forced everyone's hand with the spring he had and the offseason work he did. I will definitely be rooting for him to stick their this time, would be huge for Jays long term if he can.

 
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