***Official MLB 2013 Season Thread (2 Viewers)

[shadyridr]

Is anyone here (other than Eephus) old enough to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch full games live? Noted blowhard Mike Francesa was going on and on today about how NOBODY could touch Koufax as the greatest pitcher he's ever seen, and this isn't the first time he has stated this. Now, a couple of things.

During Koufax's incredible 4-5 year run, Francesa would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 years old. I definitely have memories of MLB at that age, but I refuse to believe anyone can fully trust and appreciate what they are seeing until the age of 14 or so. If not even later than that. His big argument was "Who else is in the Hall of Fame based on 5 great years?" and he would keep throwing that at callers who questioned Koufax's longevity. Fair enough. But he would not even entertain the argument that anyone else was on Koufax's level.

I'm sorry, but Pedro's numbers from 1997-2003 don't have to take a back seat to anyone's. And that was in the heart of the steroid era, no less.

Thoughts? Comments? Insults?

the best (worst) part of his argument was how he kept saying how durable koufax was meanwhile the guy had to retire at age 31.

 

[guru_007]

Red Sox sellout streak over, 794 games.

Yeah, was just going to come here to post this.

Pretty remarkable streak, imo. Longest in U.S. beating the Trailblazers by a good 40-50 games.

An NFL team would have to sell out for 100 years to beat this streak.

Baseball is a long grind, and selling out every game for 10 years is a great run. Even if Fenway is smaller than most parks - not every year has been great, and add in that the weather can be miserable for an outdoor game in Boston. Good run

 

[Michael Brown]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

 

[guru_007]

Is anyone here (other than Eephus) old enough to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch full games live? Noted blowhard Mike Francesa was going on and on today about how NOBODY could touch Koufax as the greatest pitcher he's ever seen, and this isn't the first time he has stated this. Now, a couple of things.

During Koufax's incredible 4-5 year run, Francesa would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 years old. I definitely have memories of MLB at that age, but I refuse to believe anyone can fully trust and appreciate what they are seeing until the age of 14 or so. If not even later than that. His big argument was "Who else is in the Hall of Fame based on 5 great years?" and he would keep throwing that at callers who questioned Koufax's longevity. Fair enough. But he would not even entertain the argument that anyone else was on Koufax's level.

I'm sorry, but Pedro's numbers from 1997-2003 don't have to take a back seat to anyone's. And that was in the heart of the steroid era, no less.

Thoughts? Comments? Insults?

I'm not old enough to have seen Koufax pitch - nor would I be able to rely on my memories of watching pitchers while I was a pre-teen....but

Koufax's 4-5 year run was pretty dominant. And I know he retired young - but his durability while he pitched really cannot be questioned. Over the 5 year stretch in aggregate, he pitched 1,376 innings and started 176, which means over a 5 year stretched he averaged just shy of 8 innings per start.

He completed 100 of the 176 games he pitched (Pedro completed over 7 games just once in his career and has less than 50 career complete games in over 400 starts).

I do believe that ERA+ stats are a bit inflated in the current game, but Pedro was definitely great over his 6-7 year run, maybe even better when all is said and done - but, it's not like Koufax was chicken liver out there. Whenever he took the bump, you could pretty much guarantee 8 innings of best in baseball type pitching - he won 3 Cy Young awards in 4 years, where the award was only given to one pitcher in the majors - and he received 100% of the first place votes all three years. That's pretty dominant

 

[Wrigley]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

 

[pollardsvision]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Fine, we'll give him the Teddy Roosevelt slot on the post-1990 pitching Mount Rushmore.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Is anyone here (other than Eephus) old enough to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch full games live? Noted blowhard Mike Francesa was going on and on today about how NOBODY could touch Koufax as the greatest pitcher he's ever seen, and this isn't the first time he has stated this. Now, a couple of things.

During Koufax's incredible 4-5 year run, Francesa would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 years old. I definitely have memories of MLB at that age, but I refuse to believe anyone can fully trust and appreciate what they are seeing until the age of 14 or so. If not even later than that. His big argument was "Who else is in the Hall of Fame based on 5 great years?" and he would keep throwing that at callers who questioned Koufax's longevity. Fair enough. But he would not even entertain the argument that anyone else was on Koufax's level.

I'm sorry, but Pedro's numbers from 1997-2003 don't have to take a back seat to anyone's. And that was in the heart of the steroid era, no less.

Thoughts? Comments? Insults?

the best (worst) part of his argument was how he kept saying how durable koufax was meanwhile the guy had to retire at age 31.

His last year he was 27-9/1.79/.985 and won the Cy Young. He chose to retire because it was in his best interest but he certainly could have pitched on with his arthritis, several doctors told him as much.

Over his last five years he threw 184, 311, 223, 335, and 323 innings. He was pretty ####### durable.

 

[Please See Mine]

So I just saw latroy Hawkins warming up in the mets bullpen. That was a hallucination, right? Right?!?'

And right on cue, gives up a 400 foot home run to Laynce Nix.

If I were not a Phillies fan, I'd probably be saying the same thing about Laynce Nix. (Actually, I still sort of am.)

 

[Doctor Detroit]

As if we needed a reminder that there are plenty of unbalanced folks walking around these days, here's another: Cubs chairman Tom Ricketts received a package in the mail at Wrigley Field on Wednesday afternoon. Inside was the severed head of a goat (CBSChicago.com).

For those unaware, there are legions of people who believe the Cubs can't win the World Series due to the curse of the billy goat, which originates from a story stemming from the 1945 World Series. It's complete nonsense (and, yes, I'm a Cubs fan, as I've noted before), but hey, heaven forbid logic enter the equation.

 

[strykerpks]

Red Sox sellout streak over, 794 games.

Yeah, was just going to come here to post this.

Pretty remarkable streak, imo. Longest in U.S. beating the Trailblazers by a good 40-50 games.

An NFL team would have to sell out for 100 years to beat this streak.

Baseball is a long grind, and selling out every game for 10 years is a great run. Even if Fenway is smaller than most parks - not every year has been great, and add in that the weather can be miserable for an outdoor game in Boston. Good run

I thought the Trailblazers was 814 straight

Packers are at something like 380 sellouts since 1960. With something like 80,000 still on the waiting list for tickets they could challenge it in 50+ years.

Either way it's remarkable.

 

[Limp Ditka]

Michael Cuddyer went 1-for-4 on Wednesday against the Giants, improving his batting line to .387/.406/.677.
Cuddyer has two home runs and seven RBI. He missed time earlier this month with a sore left wrist but is now feeling fine. The 34-year-old makes for a good second outfielder in standard mixed fantasy leagues.

#MOPMATH

 

[sporthenry]

Is anyone here (other than Eephus) old enough to have seen Sandy Koufax pitch full games live? Noted blowhard Mike Francesa was going on and on today about how NOBODY could touch Koufax as the greatest pitcher he's ever seen, and this isn't the first time he has stated this. Now, a couple of things.

During Koufax's incredible 4-5 year run, Francesa would have been 8, 9, 10 and 11 years old. I definitely have memories of MLB at that age, but I refuse to believe anyone can fully trust and appreciate what they are seeing until the age of 14 or so. If not even later than that. His big argument was "Who else is in the Hall of Fame based on 5 great years?" and he would keep throwing that at callers who questioned Koufax's longevity. Fair enough. But he would not even entertain the argument that anyone else was on Koufax's level.

I'm sorry, but Pedro's numbers from 1997-2003 don't have to take a back seat to anyone's. And that was in the heart of the steroid era, no less.

Thoughts? Comments? Insults?

I'm not old enough to have seen Koufax pitch - nor would I be able to rely on my memories of watching pitchers while I was a pre-teen....but

Koufax's 4-5 year run was pretty dominant. And I know he retired young - but his durability while he pitched really cannot be questioned. Over the 5 year stretch in aggregate, he pitched 1,376 innings and started 176, which means over a 5 year stretched he averaged just shy of 8 innings per start.

He completed 100 of the 176 games he pitched (Pedro completed over 7 games just once in his career and has less than 50 career complete games in over 400 starts).

I do believe that ERA+ stats are a bit inflated in the current game, but Pedro was definitely great over his 6-7 year run, maybe even better when all is said and done - but, it's not like Koufax was chicken liver out there. Whenever he took the bump, you could pretty much guarantee 8 innings of best in baseball type pitching - he won 3 Cy Young awards in 4 years, where the award was only given to one pitcher in the majors - and he received 100% of the first place votes all three years. That's pretty dominant

I don't think anyone is saying he wasn't dominant but I guess my question would be, do you think he could replicate those numbers in today's game? Or if you put someone like Pedro or Randy Johnson into the game in the 60's, do you think they'd have similar success? I know if he played know he wouldn't get nearly as many opportunities to get a complete game nor would he get those 100 extra innings so I don't know if that really adds to his resume that much b/c pitchers nowadays just don't even get to show off those skills.

 

[shadyridr]

I think RN's point (as well as the caller on the Mike Francesa show) was you should be able to at least make the argument. The caller had a great point. Koufax pitched in an era with a higher mound (which they eventually had to lower since pitching was so dominant) and Pedro pitched majority of his career in the steroid era. Francesa still blew him off.

 

[Michael Brown]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

 

[Grahamburn]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

 

[Eephus]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

Scott Feldman gets the start today so the curse is probably still in effect.

 

[Billy Bats]

This article is way too long for the T.R.E., but it's about the DH by Jayson Stark. Imagine that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

 

[Grahamburn]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

Scott Feldman gets the start today so the curse is probably still in effect.

Take it back.

 

[Wrigley]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

Scott Feldman gets the start today so the curse is probably still in effect.

Take it back.

LINK

 

[sporthenry]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

Scott Feldman gets the start today so the curse is probably still in effect.

One play, one error by Feldman.

 

[Wrigley]

Am I the only who didn't just glaze over the severed goat head thing? Curse is over now I guess.

Scott Feldman gets the start today so the curse is probably still in effect.

One play, one error by Feldman.

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

 

[Billy Bats]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

IMO for all those that have been confirmed to have taken peds, you have to. You can't compare greenies and corked bats to pedS. . Corked bats and greenies didn't help you heal faster from injury, recover better/faster from starts, and give you a longer, stronger career. Huge difference with today's cheaters than those eras.

 

[Wrigley]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

 

[Billy Bats]

So Jay Z is about to be a certified agent by MLB and represent Robinson Cano as his first client. Good start.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

This article is way too long for the T.R.E., but it's about the DH by Jayson Stark. Imagine that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

Are there like 694 facts enumerated in there?

 

[Eephus]

This article is way too long for the T.R.E., but it's about the DH by Jayson Stark. Imagine that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

Are there like 694 facts enumerated in there?

37% more informative than the average Bleacher Report article

 

[Mr. Pickles]

This article is way too long for the T.R.E., but it's about the DH by Jayson Stark. Imagine that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

Are there like 694 facts enumerated in there?

37% more informative than the average Bleacher Report article

I wouldn't know since I can't stomach 20 separate pages.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This article is way too long for the T.R.E., but it's about the DH by Jayson Stark. Imagine that.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/9158659/mlb-designated-hitter-spread-nl

Are there like 694 facts enumerated in there?

37% more informative than the average Bleacher Report article

I wouldn't know since I can't stomach 20 separate pages.

Amen

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

IMO for all those that have been confirmed to have taken peds, you have to. You can't compare greenies and corked bats to pedS. . Corked bats and greenies didn't help you heal faster from injury, recover better/faster from starts, and give you a longer, stronger career. Huge difference with today's cheaters than those eras.

Don Sutton, Whitey Ford, Gaylord Perry all doctored the ball.

And you're way underselling amphetamines. Biggest year to year drop in offensive numbers since 2003 happened when amphetamine testing was added.

Plus, the numbers are the numbers and seeing as I don't find steroid use to be some great moral failing, I've no reason to discount anyone from that era as the league, players, media and fans all turned a blind eye. Its not like I discount Ruth for playing in a segregated league.

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

Feds only produced evidence for his second year. You don't think they'd have preferred to put up the numbers his last year in Boston and his first year in Toronto as evidence?

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Baseball has been a cheaters sport going all the way back.

 

[Wrigley]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

Feds only produced evidence for his second year. You don't think they'd have preferred to put up the numbers his last year in Boston and his first year in Toronto as evidence?

Don't know, don't care......Truth is McNamee was Rogers strength coach his first year in Toronto(you can look it up).

One could draw the conclusion that Rogers rise coincided with his meeting of McNamee.

Up to that point, Clems numbers were on a huge down-slide.........coincidence? I think not.

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

Feds only produced evidence for his second year. You don't think they'd have preferred to put up the numbers his last year in Boston and his first year in Toronto as evidence?

Don't know, don't care......Truth is McNamee was Rogers strength coach his first year in Toronto(you can look it up).

One could draw the conclusion that Rogers rise coincided with his meeting of McNamee.

Up to that point, Clems numbers were on a huge down-slide.........coincidence? I think not.

So, McNamee decided to testify that Roger started using the second year in Toronto and not the first year for what reason exactly?

 

[Wrigley]

So, McNamee decided to testify that Roger started using the second year in Toronto and not the first year for what reason exactly?

Again, don't know don't care. Maybe he didn't start collecting evidence until that year .....does it really matter?

Guy cheated, period.

he's guilty in the court of opinion, and thats all that really matters.

 

[dparker713]

Guy cheated, period.

So did Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Gibson, Sutton, Perry, etc., etc., ...

 

[boubucarow]

Guy cheated, period.

So did Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Gibson, Sutton, Perry, etc., etc., ...

I am curious. Where do you draw the line on cheating? Is it simply the rulebook?

 

[Raider Nation]

I think RN's point (as well as the caller on the Mike Francesa show) was you should be able to at least make the argument. The caller had a great point. Koufax pitched in an era with a higher mound (which they eventually had to lower since pitching was so dominant) and Pedro pitched majority of his career in the steroid era. Francesa still blew him off.

Sí.

His defiance is what pissed me off. Koufax was the best.... nobody else is in the conversation.

Callers who brought up Pedro or Gibson were quickly dismissed without being allowed to present their case. Give me a break. I called in today to continue the discussion, but the call screener told me "We've moved on from the Koufax debate."

Yeah, it's much more important to give us a radio play-by-play of every one of Tiger's swings at Augusta.

 

[pollardsvision]

Guy cheated, period.

So did Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Aaron, Gibson, Sutton, Perry, etc., etc., ...

I am curious. Where do you draw the line on cheating? Is it simply the rulebook?

Isn't that kind of the point of the rulebook? To draw the line on cheating.

 

[Raider Nation]

Can someone let Pedro Strop know that he's in the Major Leagues and not standing on the corner selling drugs?

Straighten your hat, punk!

And yeah, get off my lawn.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

Feds only produced evidence for his second year. You don't think they'd have preferred to put up the numbers his last year in Boston and his first year in Toronto as evidence?

Don't know, don't care......Truth is McNamee was Rogers strength coach his first year in Toronto(you can look it up).

One could draw the conclusion that Rogers rise coincided with his meeting of McNamee.

Up to that point, Clems numbers were on a huge down-slide.........coincidence? I think not.

So, McNamee decided to testify that Roger started using the second year in Toronto and not the first year for what reason exactly?

Probably because the Feds evidence started that year and he was coached by his lawyers to admit what the evidence said and nothing else.

 

[Premier]

Can someone let Pedro Strop know that he's in the Major Leagues and not standing on the corner selling drugs? Straighten your hat, punk! And yeah, get off my lawn.

Rodney wears his hat worse than that, and Maddon actually encourages it.

 

[Raider Nation]

Can someone let Pedro Strop know that he's in the Major Leagues and not standing on the corner selling drugs? Straighten your hat, punk! And yeah, get off my lawn.

Rodney wears his hat worse than that, and Maddon actually encourages it.

Did you see it tonight? Way more crooked than Rodney and Sabathia. The middle of the bill was touching his ear. Ridiculous. Respect the game. It's not hard to do. Doesn't matter if I like the team or not. I get on Cano for jogging to 1st on ground balls.

 

[Premier]

Can someone let Pedro Strop know that he's in the Major Leagues and not standing on the corner selling drugs? Straighten your hat, punk! And yeah, get off my lawn.

Rodney wears his hat worse than that, and Maddon actually encourages it.

Did you see it tonight? Way more crooked than Rodney and Sabathia. The middle of the bill was touching his ear. Ridiculous. Respect the game. It's not hard to do. Doesn't matter if I like the team or not. I get on Cano for jogging to 1st on ground balls.

I only saw Stroup for a few pitches but I really wasn't paying attention. I will say I hope it doesn't become a trend.

 

[shadyridr]

What do you guys like better? Arrow or untuck?

 

[Raider Nation]

I like this guy

(Not me... I promise)

 

[Eephus]

I wish this board still had subtitles

 

[dparker713]

Greg Maddux, Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez are the best pitchers of this generation, both in terms of overall careers and peak seasons. Everyone else is a very large notch below, and these three can hang with anybody in any era.

How in the world can you leave Clemens out of that list?

pedS

Exactly. Nary a whisper about the other three, pretty typical career trajectories with a peak in the middle and tailing off towards the end. Clemens' stats in the second half of his career from Toronto on was so clearly juice-inflated that I disqualify him. Kinda like putting Bonds in the conversation with Ruth, Cobb, Ted Williams, etc. What he did up til he started juicing was already great but it wasn't "legendary icon/better than anyone who ever played" type stuff.

Even the Feds, despite millions upon millions spent, couldn't find any evidence of Roger juicing until after his first year in Toronto - when he won his 4th Cy Young at age 34. I think its safe to say there is no evidence that he was juicing prior to that.

And Randy most certainly did not have a typical aging curve. He didn't have a great season until he was 29 and his best seasons were probably when he was 37 and 38 in AZ.

Regardless, I don't reduce Roger's accomplishments any more than I do Ruth for corking his bat or Aaron for greenies. He dominated his era like few every have.

You do realize that he started "working" with Brian McNamee that first year in TOR right?

Feds only produced evidence for his second year. You don't think they'd have preferred to put up the numbers his last year in Boston and his first year in Toronto as evidence?

Don't know, don't care......Truth is McNamee was Rogers strength coach his first year in Toronto(you can look it up).

One could draw the conclusion that Rogers rise coincided with his meeting of McNamee.

Up to that point, Clems numbers were on a huge down-slide.........coincidence? I think not.

So, McNamee decided to testify that Roger started using the second year in Toronto and not the first year for what reason exactly?

Probably because the Feds evidence started that year and he was coached by his lawyers to admit what the evidence said and nothing else.

That's a disbarrable offense.

 

[shadyridr]

I like this guy

(Not me... I promise)

at least you would get the team name right